Staggering carbs of various GI, fiber, complexity in meals

[sheepdog.tx]

So heard its best to have a mix of various foods in a meal vs one to two that might digest very slow or fast. And like most people I enjoy variety. So ive alway tried to mix a plat of 5 to 6 veggies and complex starches for a wide profile. For exsmple maybe a semi-complex rice like black rice with long grain brown basmati, or green lentals with some lima beans, as well as good sources of green veggies.

So question is what defines a foods digestion speed into macro nutrients? And what factor makes a good complex carb complex? Is it the its restitance starch (ie a fluffy powdery baked potato vs one cooked waxy), its GI impact, its GI load, its fiber, something to do with chain length? Would be good to know, maybe so we can make a master list. Something to say hey sure whole wheat pasta is better than white pasta but not ad good as black beans which are stilll not as good as a plantain or so on.

 

[pyrobatt]

So heard its best to have a mix of various foods in a meal vs one to two that might digest very slow or fast. And like most people I enjoy variety. So ive alway tried to mix a plat of 5 to 6 veggies and complex starches for a wide profile. For exsmple maybe a semi-complex rice like black rice with long grain brown basmati, or green lentals with some lima beans, as well as good sources of green veggies.

So question is what defines a foods digestion speed into macro nutrients? And what factor makes a good complex carb complex? Is it the its restitance starch (ie a fluffy powdery baked potato vs one cooked waxy), its GI impact, its GI load, its fiber, something to do with chain length? Would be good to know, maybe so we can make a master list. Something to say hey sure whole wheat pasta is better than white pasta but not ad good as black beans which are stilll not as good as a plantain or so on.

Okay..gi will have no effect on fat loss or storage.
Complex carbs vs quick carbs doesn't matter.

It ALL is glucose ,glycogen stores or amino acids at the end of the day. Truely doesn't matter.

Enjoy food. Don't over think.
I eat fruit every day 2x a day. I eat high fructose corn syurp.

Look..most of the studies done on fat loss ect are geared twords sedentary people.

Train hard,lift heavy, stop over thinking.

 

[sheepdog.tx]

Okay..gi will have no effect on fat loss or storage.
Complex carbs vs quick carbs doesn't matter.

It ALL is glucose ,glycogen stores or amino acids at the end of the day. Truely doesn't matter.

Enjoy food. Don't over think.
I eat fruit every day 2x a day. I eat high fructose corn syurp.

Look..most of the studies done on fat loss ect are geared twords sedentary people.

Train hard,lift heavy, stop over thinking.

Couple of issues here:

1.) Fructose is crap IIRC. Once liver glycogen is full turns to fat instead of going to muscle glycogen. From 2007 American Society for Clinical Nutrition

"How bad is fructose?" byGeorge A Bray

"In one study, the consumption of high-fructose meals reduced 24-h plasma insulin and leptin concentrations and increased postprandial fasting triacylglycerols in women, but it did not suppress circulating ghrelin, a major appetite-stimulating hormone (4).

Fructose is metabolized, primarily in the liver, by phosphorylation on the 1-position, a process that bypasses the rate-limiting phosphofructokinase step (4). Hepatic metabolism of fructose thus favors lipogenesis, and it is not surprising that several studies have found changes in circulating lipids when subjects eat high-fructose diets"

2.) GI has a huge impact on fat levels depending on glycogen uptake. Not saying im an expert here but enough to call BS on the GI argument. If for no other reason resistance starch and fiber make a huge difference in carbs. My question is whats the magic ratios for comparing all the options.

3.) While your points on sedentary people are true for the most part we're only active part of the day. Post workout all those carbs still take time to break down, many outside the leucine/insulin spike of the meal. Again I know I'm no rocket surgeon but pretty sure taking in 300g of dextrose in an hour is different than 300g of black beans.

With all that said no offense meant, just think there is validity in trying to look for the most sensible source of carbs. :\

 

[pyrobatt]

Couple of issues here:

1.) Fructose is crap IIRC. Once liver glycogen is full turns to fat instead of going to muscle glycogen. From 2007 American Society for Clinical Nutrition

"How bad is fructose?" byGeorge A Bray

"In one study, the consumption of high-fructose meals reduced 24-h plasma insulin and leptin concentrations and increased postprandial fasting triacylglycerols in women, but it did not suppress circulating ghrelin, a major appetite-stimulating hormone (4).

Fructose is metabolized, primarily in the liver, by phosphorylation on the 1-position, a process that bypasses the rate-limiting phosphofructokinase step (4). Hepatic metabolism of fructose thus favors lipogenesis, and it is not surprising that several studies have found changes in circulating lipids when subjects eat high-fructose diets"

2.) GI has a huge impact on fat levels depending on glycogen uptake. Not saying im an expert here but enough to call BS on the GI argument. If for no other reason resistance starch and fiber make a huge difference in carbs. My question is whats the magic ratios for comparing all the options.

3.) While your points on sedentary people are true for the most part we're only active part of the day. Post workout all those carbs still take time to break down, many outside the leucine/insulin spike of the meal. Again I know I'm no rocket surgeon but pretty sure taking in 300g of dextrose in an hour is different than 300g of black beans.

With all that said no offense meant, just think there is validity in trying to look for the most sensible source of carbs. :\

1. That study referenced was irrelevant. Why? Because the body doesn't care if the fructose is fructose or oatmeal. Its glucose at the end of the day. That one study doesnt change science. Just like protein is not sucked up by your muscles in 30 minutes like some companies advertise.
Liver glycogen is full constantly due to a calorie surplus. Read up on gluconeogenisis. Amino acids can and do also convert to glucose..so does oatmeal. Including bcaas.
In a calorie deficit it can also be full.

2.glycemic index is broken even for diabetics which is the primary use. See number 1. I never said fiber isn't important.

3. Do you lift weights 2 to 6 x a week? CONGRATZ! You're not considered sedentary. Even at rest* sleep watching tv..ect* you are still improving the function of your body and health. This includes being more proficient at things like fatloss and building muscle over time. Even while we are working out we are digesting. Yes you are right..its different but it ends the same

 

[jjobe6]

 

[jjobe6]

More recently, Raatz & colleagues conducted*a parallel-design, randomized 12-week controlled feeding trial, testing the effect of GI and GL on*weight loss*[14].*The controlled period was followed by a*24-week*"free living"*phase, in which subjects were instructed to continue their respective dietary treatments outside of lab-supervised conditions. Manipulation of GI & GL failed to make a dent in both experimental phases. As a result of the 36-week trial, the researchers conclude:*"In summary, lowering the glycemic load and glycemic index of weight reduction diets does not provide any added benefit to energy restriction in promoting weight loss in obese subjects."

Taken from
http://alanaragon.com/glycemic-index

 

[mr.cooper69]

Okay..gi will have no effect on fat loss or storage.
Complex carbs vs quick carbs doesn't matter.

It ALL is glucose ,glycogen stores or amino acids at the end of the day. Truely doesn't matter.

Enjoy food. Don't over think.
I eat fruit every day 2x a day. I eat high fructose corn syurp.

Look..most of the studies done on fat loss ect are geared twords sedentary people.

Train hard,lift heavy, stop over thinking.

A supp-sectioner who actually understands nutrition in all its facets. I've seen multiple great posts by you in these sections. Kudos

 

[sheepdog.tx]

A supp-sectioner who actually understands nutrition in all its facets. I've seen multiple great posts by you in these sections. Kudos

Point taken, maybe I am overthinking this.

 

[ricroc]

A supp-sectioner who actually understands nutrition in all its facets. I've seen multiple great posts by you in these sections. Kudos

Agreed. Pryobatt always has good info and a nice break down of what to do.

 

[pyrobatt]

Agreed. Pryobatt always has good info and a nice break down of what to do.

I have alot of free time to read and post. Between legal documents haha!

Always willing. Mite even offer coaching free one day.

 

[booneman77]

I have alot of free time to read and post. Between legal documents haha! Always willing. Mite even offer coaching free one day.

I think you'd have a line at your door for that one. I know I'd try to get in on some free coaching from a solid source

 

[The Solution]

Okay..gi will have no effect on fat loss or storage.
Complex carbs vs quick carbs doesn't matter.

It ALL is glucose ,glycogen stores or amino acids at the end of the day. Truely doesn't matter.

Enjoy food. Don't over think.
I eat fruit every day 2x a day. I eat high fructose corn syurp.

Look..most of the studies done on fat loss ect are geared twords sedentary people.

Train hard,lift heavy, stop over thinking.

This x 100
meet calories
meet protein intake
meet fiber intake
meet fat intake
Profit.

 

[bla55]

Alright, so, with all of this in mind, is CBL then completely bogus?

I honestly have had my best results doings CBL, no food until 2PM, then I have lunch filled with veggies, greens, and fatty protein, drenched in olive oil. Leave all my carbs for after workout, eating a sh!tload of sugar, white rice, white bread, and lean meats with little fat.

So, what's the deal here?

 

[booneman77]

Alright, so, with all of this in mind, is CBL then completely bogus?

I honestly have had my best results doings CBL, no food until 2PM, then I have lunch filled with veggies, greens, and fatty protein, drenched in olive oil. Leave all my carbs for after workout, eating a sh!tload of sugar, white rice, white bread, and lean meats with little fat.

So, what's the deal here?

You answered your own question there ha... It can't be completely bogus if it works for YOU. The thing is that it may not work for everyone.

What they said above though is that all of these carb forms end up as glucose so it makes less difference which they are to start with. The big selling point of CBL is that you CAN eat the junk, contrary to popular bb lore. For other benefits, it doesn't make much sense, but that doesn't mean your fat burning will stop just because you chose white rice vs brown.

 

[keithgeiling]

This is a very interesting thread.. I have heard the argument before on white vs brown but I am asking, isn't the white starches what causes more insulin release and more potential for fat storage????? I would like to hear more on this as it can drastically improve my food choices. Lol.

 

[jjobe6]

To paraphrase there is not one type of carb that will make gain fat. Eating too much makes you fat. So if you like white rice eat it. Plus brown rice contains phytic acid. Which makes certain minerals unabsorbable.

 

[The Solution]

Alright, so, with all of this in mind, is CBL then completely bogus?

I honestly have had my best results doings CBL, no food until 2PM, then I have lunch filled with veggies, greens, and fatty protein, drenched in olive oil. Leave all my carbs for after workout, eating a sh!tload of sugar, white rice, white bread, and lean meats with little fat.

So, what's the deal here?

its not bogus.
how you allot your intake is personal preference.
Total Kcals is what determines your goal.

 

[pyrobatt]

This is a very interesting thread.. I have heard the argument before on white vs brown but I am asking, isn't the white starches what causes more insulin release and more potential for fat storage????? I would like to hear more on this as it can drastically improve my food choices. Lol.

Total caloric intake is responsible for fat storage. Insulin is a healthy response. White rice is not the devil. Make sure to get fiber though.

 

[ricroc]

As I get back into the groove once again, this thread has been helpful.

We all need a good K.I.S.S. reminder now and then.

 

[keithgeiling]

Total caloric intake is responsible for fat storage. Insulin is a healthy response. White rice is not the devil. Make sure to get fiber though.

I definitely don't get enough fiber but as I sit here eating my pb sandwich, I am drinking whole chocolate milk.. So the sugar in it shouldn't concern me as I am getting my cals and macros at end of day? And I'm not in search of a white rice answer because I like brown, but I would love me some chicken Lipton rice packets?? I have learned a lot the last few years on this sight and still learning. I always say to my wife that I don't need a Trainer, Nutritionist, or a doctor cause I have AM!!! I read a lot of your threads and if you start coaching, I will be first in line.. I also think The Solution knows his **** and I take notice when he posts!! Sometimes I find myself paralysis by analysis though?

 

[pyrobatt]

I definitely don't get enough fiber but as I sit here eating my pb sandwich, I am drinking whole chocolate milk.. So the sugar in it shouldn't concern me as I am getting my cals and macros at end of day? And I'm not in search of a white rice answer because I like brown, but I would love me some chicken Lipton rice packets?? I have learned a lot the last few years on this sight and still learning. I always say to my wife that I don't need a Trainer, Nutritionist, or a doctor cause I have AM!!! I read a lot of your threads and if you start coaching, I will be first in line.. I also think The Solution knows his **** and I take notice when he posts!! Sometimes I find myself paralysis by analysis though?

Sugar is not the devil. Its a little nutritionally empty but nothing to worry about. I keep my sugar 200g and under. This is more about nutrition than worrying about my abs disappearing.

You're not sedentary. Stop worrying about sugar. Start worrying about dem gains!

The only thing I realy avoid like the plague is man made transfat. The fda is worried now. 1 confirmed case of .....what they call.."diet induced heart disease" this "study" was done on a man for 10 years. 2003 to 2013. He was sedentary*someone involved in the study I believe*. Had a controlled diet for the whole 10 years. He had to have atleast 1g per day of non natural transfat.

May be bs but many other resources say stay away. From bros to mds.

 

[yelis300]

So I could eat anything I want, even just shakes all day, and if I hit my macros, I'll get to my goal? Sounds too easy

 

[pyrobatt]

So I could eat anything I want, even just shakes all day, and if I hit my macros, I'll get to my goal? Sounds too easy

In terms of weight loss or gain..pretty much.

I prefer to include a little bro foods but I eat 50 to 150g of white rice a day. Not that big of a deal.

 

[yelis300]

It's been a few months now since I last saw this thread but I just wanted to ask a question. Shortly after reading this a few months back I quickly decided to begin eating more "unhealthy" carbs I.e. I switched from wheat bread to white, from whole wheat pasta to white pasta, brown to white rice etc. etc. Shortly after doing this It seemed to look like I was getting a bit bigger in the midsection and I don't know if it was because I was all of a sudden getting in more calories or because of the switch I made to the diet. Has anybody else done like me and made this switch and notice some fattening around the midsection after you switched up?

 

[The Solution]

It's been a few months now since I last saw this thread but I just wanted to ask a question. Shortly after reading this a few months back I quickly decided to begin eating more "unhealthy" carbs I.e. I switched from wheat bread to white, from whole wheat pasta to white pasta, brown to white rice etc. etc. Shortly after doing this It seemed to look like I was getting a bit bigger in the midsection and I don't know if it was because I was all of a sudden getting in more calories or because of the switch I made to the diet. Has anybody else done like me and made this switch and notice some fattening around the midsection after you switched up?

your gaining weight because of a surplus of calories. (bold)
You can eat a cupcake and eat at a 500 caloric deficit and you will still lose weight and fat over time. Not to say you have to do that everyday but just an example.
Rice and bread in general are voided of nutrients, they are deemed clean, but if you look at what is in this products its next to nothing when it comes to vitamins/minerals. Maybe an extra g of fiber from bread/rice in whole wheat compared to white.
Assuming you make sure the rest of your calories are from decent choices and micronutrients, fiber, fat and protein intake should take priority in being reached first and foremost.

 

[yelis300]

your gaining weight because of a surplus of calories. (bold)
You can eat a cupcake and eat at a 500 caloric deficit and you will still lose weight and fat over time. Not to say you have to do that everyday but just an example.
Rice and bread in general are voided of nutrients, they are deemed clean, but if you look at what is in this products its next to nothing when it comes to vitamins/minerals. Maybe an extra g of fiber from bread/rice in whole wheat compared to white.
Assuming you make sure the rest of your calories are from decent choices and micronutrients, fiber, fat and protein intake should take priority in being reached first and foremost.

Yeah I'm not sure if I went over my calories or not but I think I did. I think the food tasted so good I over ate my calories and gained some fat. I still just find it hard to believe I can eat that way and not get fat as long as I don't overshoot my calories and or macros.if it really is true then my eating just got a whole lot more fun. I'm gonna try it again and track my calories exactly and see how it goes. All I really want is to eat white bread, white pasta, white potatoes and white rice. I don't even care about sugar I just use a small amt of honey or stevia and I'm fine with that.

 

[The Solution]

Yeah I'm not sure if I went over my calories or not but I think I did. I think the food tasted so good I over ate my calories and gained some fat. I still just find it hard to believe I can eat that way and not get fat as long as I don't overshoot my calories and or macros.if it really is true then my eating just got a whole lot more fun.

If you are tracking your calories you would know if you went over or not.
http://wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/the-dirt-on-clean-eating/

 

[yelis300]

If you are tracking your calories you would know if you went over or not.
http://wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/the-dirt-on-clean-eating/

I am tracking them now, I just wasn't at the time.

 

[JudoJosh]

It ALL is glucose ,glycogen stores or amino acids at the end of the day.

Not really.

Couple of issues here:

1.) Fructose is crap IIRC. Once liver glycogen is full turns to fat instead of going to muscle glycogen. From 2007 American Society for Clinical Nutrition

"How bad is fructose?" byGeorge A Bray

"In one study, the consumption of high-fructose meals reduced 24-h plasma insulin and leptin concentrations and increased postprandial fasting triacylglycerols in women, but it did not suppress circulating ghrelin, a major appetite-stimulating hormone (4).

Fructose is metabolized, primarily in the liver, by phosphorylation on the 1-position, a process that bypasses the rate-limiting phosphofructokinase step (4). Hepatic metabolism of fructose thus favors lipogenesis, and it is not surprising that several studies have found changes in circulating lipids when subjects eat high-fructose diets"

2.) GI has a huge impact on fat levels depending on glycogen uptake. Not saying im an expert here but enough to call BS on the GI argument. If for no other reason resistance starch and fiber make a huge difference in carbs. My question is whats the magic ratios for comparing all the options.

Link the papers who are citing here. Overall the difference is going to be negligible in any reasonable diet

Because the body doesn't care if the fructose is fructose or oatmeal. Its glucose at the end of the day. That one study doesnt change science. Just like protein is not sucked up by your muscles in 30 minutes like some companies advertise.

umm..no. Fructose metabolism is not the same as glucose metabolism and on top of that, oatmeal doesnt really contain fructose so the mention of oatmeal is super odd here. Im not sure what that one study says since there isnt a link and I am too lazy to search for it, but from the quoted section it doesnt look like a study and instead looks more like some basic biochem/nutrient metabolism stuff

 

[yelis300]

So what's your take on this then judojosh? Could you expand on your thoughts a little further?