ADRENAL EXHAUSTION?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post
    Yes, it's a very large leap. You did not suffer this.


    You were undernourished and on chronic stim intake. These are the exact symptoms you would have, they have nothing to do with the adrenals.
    Can I just ask because you seem so certain on this that in your opinion are the adrenals involved at all when one is undernourished and is taking stimulants? Do you think cortisol and NE rise in this particular state?

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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Classic case of overtraining. You doing too much activity on too little rest and food.
    The fact that sometimes you feel better then train heavy and end up in the same spot as before proves it.
    How about you rest for a few weeks then hit the gym 3x a week or even 2 if you feel tired. Eat when you hungry a balanced nutritious meal. If you hungry 8 times then eat 8 times, the amount of meals doesnt matter eating when you hungry does. If you are not hungry then dont eat.
    When you go to the gym dont max out all the time, lift enough to feel the stress but not too heavy that by the end of the workout you wiped out. If by the end of your workout you dont feel refreshed and feel down right ****ty then you workout too much or too hard.
    So if you can bench 225 for 1 rep then do 135 for 10 reps 3 sets. Dont be in the gym for more than 30-45min. Cardio cut it down to 1-2x a week if you still want to do it, on days you not lifting. If you feel tired those days you scheduled to lift or cardio then go home eat something and relax and go to sleep. Save it for another day. Skip that workout and go to the next one coming up.
    See how that goes and report back.
    Took i month off and cut out all grains(oats)and starchs and seem to be slowly,slowly getting back to how i was/want to feel.
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    Went to my Doc.with some of the same feelings of being burned out. He also said it is not recognized as of yet the Term Adrenal Fatigue, but it will in the future as it becomes more understood. I had the 24 hr. cortisol test done every six months for two years now. The first test I had morning and afternoon cortisol levels that barley showed on the scale (very low), been supplmenting with some of the herbs suggested above in thread. He also suggested to quit pushing so hard in all aspects of life and sleep as much as possible and SLOW down life stresses. My levels have steadly come up over the last two years and also been on C-pap for last 4 months and am starting to really get my energy back. Just my experience so far.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipdnTxs View Post
    Went to my Doc.with some of the same feelings of being burned out. He also said it is not recognized as of yet the Term Adrenal Fatigue, but it will in the future as it becomes more understood.

    Your doctor is misinformed. No endocrinologist gives credence to adrenal fatigue. It biologically doesnt make sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post
    Can I just ask because you seem so certain on this that in your opinion are the adrenals involved at all when one is undernourished and is taking stimulants? Do you think cortisol and NE rise in this particular state?


    Adrenal fatigue is 99% fiction, and based on the concept of tolerance. When you supplement with caffeine, the body upregulates hepatic CYP enzymes which are oriented at deactivating caffeine. Naturally, in order to produce an equivalent effect, you have to supplement with more and more caffeine. Similarly, the body upregulates central adenosine receptors and so caffeine literally decreases in potency. If you decrease your dose of caffeine, or cease administration, you will have a withdrawl period (headaches, fatigue) which is simply due to the latter mechanism. Eventually, the adenosine receptors downregulate and you return to baseline.

    Fitness "experts" don't understand biology/pharmacology, and blame "adrenal fatigue." Others are trying to make money off of peoples ignorance (i.e. adrenal fatigue supplements).

    Animal studies have clearly shown that the only way to produce adrenal medulla insufficiency is to physically denervate the organ. You can produce temporary adrenal medulla atrophy with longstanding absence of leptin, cortisol, or corticotropin. The latter two can be induced with exogenous supplementation of glucocorticoids (i.e. prednisone), although the main effect will be directed towards the adrenal cortex (i.e. actual adrenal insufficiency).

    http://www.endo-society.org/media/pr...al-Fatigue.cfm
    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/adr...atigue/AN01583



    Im sure your malnutrition would also account for a whole host of problems as well, including majorly decreased testosterone production.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 67nova View Post
    Took i month off and cut out all grains(oats)and starchs and seem to be slowly,slowly getting back to how i was/want to feel.
    smart move and many ppl have gluten or insulin issues.
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    I am going with what my Doc. tells me on this one... I have labs results and the way I feel to go on. I,m no Dr. and doubt U are either so again this is MY results, have U read the bood called Adrenal Fatigue ??? I cant remember th author at the moment, I will find the book and post if anyone is interested.... Its a pretty interesting read.


    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post
    Your doctor is misinformed. No endocrinologist gives credence to adrenal fatigue. It biologically doesnt make sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post
    Adrenal fatigue is 99% fiction, and based on the concept of tolerance. When you supplement with caffeine, the body upregulates hepatic CYP enzymes which are oriented at deactivating caffeine. Naturally, in order to produce an equivalent effect, you have to supplement with more and more caffeine. Similarly, the body upregulates central adenosine receptors and so caffeine literally decreases in potency. If you decrease your dose of caffeine, or cease administration, you will have a withdrawl period (headaches, fatigue) which is simply due to the latter mechanism. Eventually, the adenosine receptors downregulate and you return to baseline.

    Fitness "experts" don't understand biology/pharmacology, and blame "adrenal fatigue." Others are trying to make money off of peoples ignorance (i.e. adrenal fatigue supplements).

    Animal studies have clearly shown that the only way to produce adrenal medulla insufficiency is to physically denervate the organ. You can produce temporary adrenal medulla atrophy with longstanding absence of leptin, cortisol, or corticotropin. The latter two can be induced with exogenous supplementation of glucocorticoids (i.e. prednisone), although the main effect will be directed towards the adrenal cortex (i.e. actual adrenal insufficiency).

    http://www.endo-society.org/media/pr...al-Fatigue.cfm
    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/adr...atigue/AN01583



    Im sure your malnutrition would also account for a whole host of problems as well, including majorly decreased testosterone production.
    I agree with you. I'm certain I had lower levels of testosterone and T3 because of malnutrition. My only point really wasn't anything to do with stim tolerance, but about physiological changes caused by training hard, under-eating, not resting enough and the common set of symptoms these produce. I'm certain my adrenals hormones were constantly elevated because I felt constantly stimulated, almost like I had ephedrine when I hadn't taken any stims. I also had my blood sugar level checked and they were sky high even a several hours after a meal. Now this physological state prevailed for several weeks even after ceasing training, eating and resting. I take your point about using the incorrect term to describe a condition, but it is a particular condition that is brought about by specific circumstances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipdnTxs View Post
    I,m no Dr. and doubt U are either
    I am a doctor.
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    Congrats, I stand corrected.......
    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post
    I am a doctor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saggy321 View Post

    I agree with you. I'm certain I had lower levels of testosterone and T3 because of malnutrition. My only point really wasn't anything to do with stim tolerance, but about physiological changes caused by training hard, under-eating, not resting enough and the common set of symptoms these produce. I'm certain my adrenals hormones were constantly elevated because I felt constantly stimulated, almost like I had ephedrine when I hadn't taken any stims. I also had my blood sugar level checked and they were sky high even a several hours after a meal. Now this physological state prevailed for several weeks even after ceasing training, eating and resting. I take your point about using the incorrect term to describe a condition, but it is a particular condition that is brought about by specific circumstances.
    Have you been tested for diabetes? Elevated blood glucose is a symptom.
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    Powercage,

    On the topic of caffeine tolerance, what's your experience with "cycling" stimulants? I.e., once the relevant adenosine receptors are upregulated (= you've achieved "caffeine dependency"), how much correlation will there be with tolerance for other stimulants, such as ephedrine, 1,3-dmaa, or synephrine?

    I know that there are more formal units in which this could be measured, but let's just say a 0-10 scale, where...
    0 = the receptors for each drug are completely independent; i.e., even if you are coked on 12 cups of coffee a day, a tiny dose of ephedra/dmaa/etc will get you just as "wired" as if you were a caffeine-free Mormon.
    and...
    10 = they all activate the same receptors, making them interchangeable—all the same tolerance, sorry Charlie, but you've just got to cut them all out for a while.

    Any idea where each of those three stimulants would be on the scale of 0-10?

    If any of them were close to 0, then withdrawing from caffeine would simply be a matter of switching to another stimulant. If they're all close to 10, then take a weekend in the woods, pull the shades, and sleep off those 3 days of headaches.

    You seem to ... actually know what you're talking about, here, so your opinion is valuable here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eluruguayo View Post
    Powercage,

    On the topic of caffeine tolerance, what's your experience with "cycling" stimulants? I.e., once the relevant adenosine receptors are upregulated (= you've achieved "caffeine dependency"), how much correlation will there be with tolerance for other stimulants, such as ephedrine, 1,3-dmaa, or synephrine?

    I know that there are more formal units in which this could be measured, but let's just say a 0-10 scale, where...
    0 = the receptors for each drug are completely independent; i.e., even if you are coked on 12 cups of coffee a day, a tiny dose of ephedra/dmaa/etc will get you just as "wired" as if you were a caffeine-free Mormon.
    and...
    10 = they all activate the same receptors, making them interchangeable—all the same tolerance, sorry Charlie, but you've just got to cut them all out for a while.

    Any idea where each of those three stimulants would be on the scale of 0-10?

    If any of them were close to 0, then withdrawing from caffeine would simply be a matter of switching to another stimulant. If they're all close to 10, then take a weekend in the woods, pull the shades, and sleep off those 3 days of headaches.

    You seem to ... actually know what you're talking about, here, so your opinion is valuable here.
    At some point you are going to have to cycle off everything (most likely). But you are right, certain ingredients work in different manners so switching to another would potentially make you feel something again. Ill give two simple examples without getting super technical:


    For instance DMAA is a reuptake inhibitor, whereas PEA displaces norepinephrine within the vesicles of the axon terminal.

    So if you've taken PEA for a while and dont feel anything, you could switch to DMAA and still feel something. And actually caffeine may be exactly what you want to take to help get rid of some PEA tolerance (which is nice to know since PEA tolerance takes forever to reset).

    When in doubt, cycle off everything.
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    Thanks, PC. That agrees with my (highly anecdotal and poorly controlled) empirical evidence. (And, if more guys would apply your last sentence to relationship decisions... yeah.)

    So one consequence, then, would be that SINGLE-stimulant supplements are, theoretically, better in the long run than combined/"stacked" supplements?
    Say, a pure 1,3-dmaa pill (like SNS AdrenaG), or a pure ephedrine sulfate pill (Bronkaid). As opposed to 99% of the stims out there, which are just a giant minestrone of everything, especially the caffeine.

    Let me know what you think of that idea. If that's a thing, then that's theoretically revolutionary—an enterprising fellow could probably make millions, and help a lot of people reverse tolerances along the way, by selling a specific sequence of stim's as a cycle. Say 4-6 week pyramid of PEA, 6-8 week pyramid of caffeine, and 4-6 week pyramid of synephrine or dmaa.
    Hmm. Possible public service + business opportunity here? Let me know what you think.

    Thanks for your time, by the way—as a doctor who also works out, I bet you don't have a lot of it to spare.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post
    I am a doctor.
    That's great. haha
  

  
 

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