The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

[jontrainer]

I think you might be foregoing some of the physiological benefits of fasting for 16 hours by eating that small meal post-workout. If you could switch that out for some BCAAs and make 1PM your first true meal you would be good to go.

There's definitely nothing "wrong" with what you're doing, but as you said, it's not exactly LG. Everyone is different though -- you might want to give the switch a try and see if it's for you or not!

Thank for responding guys. I will def do this as it would be my preference. Can't wait to do this thing right!!

[DreamWeaver]

For sure, was just thinking about those as starting points.

Yah sounds good to me, the finishing points will be more interesting though, let us know what you come up with.... I will be keeping track once I am in lean bulk as well...

[Milas]

Thank for responding guys. I will def do this as it would be my preference. Can't wait to do this thing right!!

There is a noticeable difference in results IMO.

I've taken to using HumaPro by ALRI and Gear by **** both pre and post workout (1 scoop HumaPro, 4 caps Gear both pre/post) to keep muscle protein synthesis active and stave off catabolism. While for acute anabolism only 24hr protein consumption REALLY matters, I like to think the BCAA/EAA gives me a little bit extra for growth while keeping lipolysis up.

[ScottyDoc]

Today's Trivia Question will be posted at 3:00pm Eastern Standard time... So be ready!

REDEFINE NUTRITON Weightlifting/Bodybuilding Trivia...

[FlawedGrunt]

I decided f it! Starting my first day today. Stopped eating at around 10 last night and will be fasting till approximately 1230 today. Already had roughly ten G's of xtend. Thanks for the answers guys!

Today is a workout day for me, my Cal's are maybe a little low at 2400 but my macros are at 227g protein, 223g Carb, and 55g fat

Not quite sure what I'm going to do yet for my cardio days. But ultimately my goal is cutting

Do I have a good start?

[FlawedGrunt]

Surprisingly I'm not dying of hunger. bcaa must be helping

[MrKleen73]

How much do you weigh? Body fat % can't really say anything without knowing those.

[FlawedGrunt]

205 and guessing 16-17%

[Milas]

I decided f it! Starting my first day today. Stopped eating at around 10 last night and will be fasting till approximately 1230 today. Already had roughly ten G's of xtend. Thanks for the answers guys!

Today is a workout day for me, my Cal's are maybe a little low at 2400 but my macros are at 227g protein, 223g Carb, and 55g fat

Not quite sure what I'm going to do yet for my cardio days. But ultimately my goal is cutting

Do I have a good start?

See if you can keep fasting until 2PM so that it's 16hrs of fasting. A more regular cadence people seem to fall into is 12PM-8PM for feeding, the rest is fasting. It works best if you eat something with staying power at 8PM (protein and fat, preferably casein, something like XF UP2.0 for example with whole food/fiber).

Calories are hard to say not knowing what your resting metabolic rate is and how much exercise you do. If you're goal is cutting, you can be lower on your off/cardio days by 20% below maintenance. Workout days shoot for 20% over, but again cutting you might want to drop that or keep it at maintenance.

Personal preference, I'd increase protein and reduce carbs. I drop weight a lot better when I restrict carbs. Also, protein will help you feel fuller, longer.

As you keep doing it, adjust calories until you're getting the desired results. At 16-17% bf you should be able to keep calories around maintenance or below maintenance 20-30% IMO.

[ScottyDoc]

See if you can keep fasting until 2PM so that it's 16hrs of fasting. A more regular cadence people seem to fall into is 12PM-8PM for feeding, the rest is fasting. It works best if you eat something with staying power at 8PM (protein and fat, preferably casein, something like XF UP2.0 for example with whole food/fiber).

Calories are hard to say not knowing what your resting metabolic rate is and how much exercise you do. If you're goal is cutting, you can be lower on your off/cardio days by 20% below maintenance. Workout days shoot for 20% over, but again cutting you might want to drop that or keep it at maintenance.

Personal preference, I'd increase protein and reduce carbs. I drop weight a lot better when I restrict carbs. Also, protein will help you feel fuller, longer.

As you keep doing it, adjust calories until you're getting the desired results. At 16-17% bf you should be able to keep calories around maintenance or below maintenance 20-30% IMO.

I am still way new at this, but based on what I have been reading and what I see others doing with excellent results, this looks spot on to me, Kleen seems to be our resident Lean Gains & Intermiten Fasting Guru, in for what he has to say!

[RickRock13]

See if you can keep fasting until 2PM so that it's 16hrs of fasting. A more regular cadence people seem to fall into is 12PM-8PM for feeding, the rest is fasting. It works best if you eat something with staying power at 8PM (protein and fat, preferably casein, something like XF UP2.0 for example with whole food/fiber).

Calories are hard to say not knowing what your resting metabolic rate is and how much exercise you do. If you're goal is cutting, you can be lower on your off/cardio days by 20% below maintenance. Workout days shoot for 20% over, but again cutting you might want to drop that or keep it at maintenance.

Personal preference, I'd increase protein and reduce carbs. I drop weight a lot better when I restrict carbs. Also, protein will help you feel fuller, longer.

As you keep doing it, adjust calories until you're getting the desired results. At 16-17% bf you should be able to keep calories around maintenance or below maintenance 20-30% IMO.

I would agree with pretty much everything Milas said here. The 20%/20% rule is a good guideline, but you can adjust from there as you need to.

[MrKleen73]

I agree with them as well. At 16-17% you are either going to want to do a cut, or a recomp. YOu would probably do well on a recomp unless just in a big hurry. YOu don't have that much to lose to be looking pretty good so I would choose a recomp style if I were you. Like I said it will be better for you unless you actually have a need to get lean faster.

Here is what I would do if you gain easily then start with a maintenance around 12-13 x bw, if pretty much straight down the line meaning you can add fat and drop fat very easily then try 13-14 x BW, and if you have a hard time gaining weight at all try 15xBW for a maintenance number then do the -20% / +20% based off of that number. I have a feeling you will probably fall in the 13-14 range. SO at what 216 that would put your maintenance between 2808 -3024 for 2808 it would be 2247 & 3369 and for 3024 you get 2419 & 3629, so pick a starting range going off what you already know about yourrself and go from there. If you want to cut a little more quickly you can just lower the cals on the low calorie day by 10%.

[kyoryoko]

When 'on' do you suggest intaking more protein? currently I have a client stacking AH + AL (Andro hard and Andro lean). I have his carbs at around .25g per lb, and protein at 1.5g/lb, fats hover around .25-.5g/lb depending on the meats he uses. But always leaner cuts.

My other concern is the carbs. Should I have him ingest it b4 the workout? He pushes hard so he can get through the workout usually w/o the carbs.
FYI, following the UD2.
He said he likes the UD2, but this is really just the first week to him so it could be the honey moon phase...

Client currently 190lbs 13%

[Red Dog]

When 'on' do you suggest intaking more protein? currently I have a client stacking AH + AL (Andro hard and Andro lean). I have his carbs at around .25g per lb, and protein at 1.5g/lb, fats hover around .25-.5g/lb depending on the meats he uses. But always leaner cuts.

My other concern is the carbs. Should I have him ingest it b4 the workout? He pushes hard so he can get through the workout usually w/o the carbs.
FYI, following the UD2. Client currently 190lbs 13%

PRO @ 1.5/lb on this sort of diet is close to ideal. 2g/lb of protein is overkill -- 2g/kg is plenty for purposes of protein synthesis, but adding in the extra protein for satiety, fat loss, and lean tissue preservation is fine.

I see you only have him at 50g CHO? On workout days that seems low regarding glycogen resynthesis, especially after intense sessions. I'm not familiar with UD2, but if it is deliberately designed to deplete glycogen for fat loss, then disregard the above as those protocols would oppose one another.

There may be advantages to training fasted and LG ultimately insists on it. I can link you some studies regarding fasted vs. non-fasted and pre-workout CHO vs. no pre-workout CHO if you want, but I would suggest Leucine/BCAAs beforehand if possible (~10 grams) before anything else as there are studies documenting the benefit of dosing BCAA pre-workout.

[FlawedGrunt]

See if you can keep fasting until 2PM so that it's 16hrs of fasting. A more regular cadence people seem to fall into is 12PM-8PM for feeding, the rest is fasting. It works best if you eat something with staying power at 8PM (protein and fat, preferably casein, something like XF UP2.0 for example with whole food/fiber).

Calories are hard to say not knowing what your resting metabolic rate is and how much exercise you do. If you're goal is cutting, you can be lower on your off/cardio days by 20% below maintenance. Workout days shoot for 20% over, but again cutting you might want to drop that or keep it at maintenance.

Personal preference, I'd increase protein and reduce carbs. I drop weight a lot better when I restrict carbs. Also, protein will help you feel fuller, longer.

As you keep doing it, adjust calories until you're getting the desired results. At 16-17% bf you should be able to keep calories around maintenance or below maintenance 20-30% IMO.

I am still way new at this, but based on what I have been reading and what I see others doing with excellent results, this looks spot on to me, Kleen seems to be our resident Lean Gains & Intermiten Fasting Guru, in for what he has to say!

I would agree with pretty much everything Milas said here. The 20%/20% rule is a good guideline, but you can adjust from there as you need to.

I agree with them as well. At 16-17% you are either going to want to do a cut, or a recomp. YOu would probably do well on a recomp unless just in a big hurry. YOu don't have that much to lose to be looking pretty good so I would choose a recomp style if I were you. Like I said it will be better for you unless you actually have a need to get lean faster.

Here is what I would do if you gain easily then start with a maintenance around 12-13 x bw, if pretty much straight down the line meaning you can add fat and drop fat very easily then try 13-14 x BW, and if you have a hard time gaining weight at all try 15xBW for a maintenance number then do the -20% / +20% based off of that number. I have a feeling you will probably fall in the 13-14 range. SO at what 216 that would put your maintenance between 2808 -3024 for 2808 it would be 2247 & 3369 and for 3024 you get 2419 & 3629, so pick a starting range going off what you already know about yourrself and go from there. If you want to cut a little more quickly you can just lower the cals on the low calorie day by 10%.

Thanks for all the responses guys! Ok so I dropped my carbs a bit at the end of the day ending at 2424 calories, 209g carbs, 245g protein, and 57g fat. If im understand this correctly MrKleen you are saying I should take my weight (205 lbs) and multiple. So I will just assume I sway with weight easy enough so....

205 x 13 = 2665
205 x 14 = 2870

2665 (+/- 20%) = 2132 - 3198
2870 (+/- 20%) = 2296 - 3444

At this point my ultimate goal is more cutting than recomp. I would like to be as lean as possible while retaining muscle in four weeks when my gf and I go on a short camping trip with a bunch of friends. After that if I am lean as I am comfortable with I will switch to recomp or ever lean gain bulk.

Im not sure how low I want to drop my carbs. In all honest I have always been the "I know carbs have to be low to get lean" guy and everytime I try to make the adjustment to that kind of diet (CKD) I fail miserably. I have been keeping my carbs moderate 150-200 for the last two weeks and have felt very positive about workouts and such and even the other day I felt leaner than I have in awhile.

So if I am cutting would you suggest keeping my calories around maintenance on workout days and dropping down to say 2100-2000 on non workout/cardio days?


Ps.... Ill layout what todays food was quick:

Fast Break:
Apple
Multigrain tortilla
4 oz chicken
1/2 cup brown rice
1/4 cup black beans
4 oz ***e 0% fat greek yogurt
1 Scoop Dymatize protein

2nd meal:
2 oz summer sausage
1 can (4 oz) Albacore tuna
1 Whole wheat sub roll
1 slick pepperjack cheese
1 Scoop Dymatize protein

Last meal: (Post workout)
4 oz chicken breast
1 cup vegetable stir fry
1/2 cup cottage cheese
1/2 cup oats
1 1/2 cup skim milk
24 whole almonds
2 Scoops Dymatize protein

Phew that seemed like a lot and I literally had to force that last bit of food down... actually I wasnt even hungry when my girlfriend told me she made dinner... poor her going out of her way to be nice for me and I wasnt even wanting to eat!

[Milas]

Natty PB and peanuts, they add plenty of calories...

[kyoryoko]

PRO @ 1.5/lb on this sort of diet is close to ideal. 2g/lb of protein is overkill -- 2g/kg is plenty for purposes of protein synthesis, but adding in the extra protein for satiety, fat loss, and lean tissue preservation is fine.

I see you only have him at 50g CHO? On workout days that seems low regarding glycogen resynthesis, especially after intense sessions. I'm not familiar with UD2, but if it is deliberately designed to deplete glycogen for fat loss, then disregard the above as those protocols would oppose one another.

There may be advantages to training fasted and LG ultimately insists on it. I can link you some studies regarding fasted vs. non-fasted and pre-workout CHO vs. no pre-workout CHO if you want, but I would suggest Leucine/BCAAs beforehand if possible (~10 grams) before anything else as there are studies documenting the benefit of dosing BCAA pre-workout.

Sounds good, I'll try have him do that. 10g BCAAs from like Xtends (plus some extra)or Modern BCAA would be best I'd think. If he can make it through the next couple days and complete the week I will see if I should make some changes to the protein intake. He's using a lot of shakes though to cram it in the 8hrs. I usually don't like liquid food but to get 300-380g protein in 8hrs I may have to let it go for now. lol.

Thanks again!!

[FlawedGrunt]

Yeah I usually have a couple scoops of Natty PB in my shake (the one i had at the end of the day along with my chicken stir fry) but I was already stuffed and didnt know how much more I could take haha

So given the fact im purely trying to cut. Should I still try to be over maintenance on my lifting days?

[Milas]

You can probably just do maintenance on working days and be cool if you're just cutting. If you start losing strength consistently, increase calories.

[FlawedGrunt]

Thanks Milas! Ill keep pressing forward on this. I was pretty surprised on both counts that i made it easily to 1230 with no food in me and also that I felt pretty damn strong tonight when I lifting chest, bis, and legs... but I was sweatin like a biiiiiitttttccccchhhhh

If Kleen, Red Dog, Scotty, or RickRock have any other suggestions please chime in!

PS - I have had a really hard time sticking to a diet and this is probably the closest ive ever been to being around maintenance calories with for the most part wholesome food. So before I go changing shxt drastically I definitely want to see how this affects me and establish routine and discipline and then carry on from there. I definitely consider all criticism and suggestions and appreciate the help!