The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log
- 09-01-2011, 03:14 PM
- 09-01-2011, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by chedapalooza
Just some additional ideas bro
- 09-01-2011, 06:38 PM
09-01-2011, 08:00 PM
food for thought not sure if posted...
just tossing this out to everyone to read...
Insulin, as it rises, increases leptin. As you know thats fat in the white adipose tissue (which also harbors immune cells and inflamation markers), and regulates the way we disper energy. Leptin is in almost every cell of the body and there can be a resistance to this aswell. When this resistance occurs your bodys ability to use energy effeciently and properly burn fat contiues to be a hardship. This can be a reason why people who are seemingly overweight and dont eat much continue to gain weight.
From this point doctors look now at the thyroid as underlying problem when what in essence happens is leptin is what is causing the bodys TSH level to rise as well as reverse t3. These are important number as when TSH and Reverse t3 is high it basically tells your body your starving and you store much easier.
The cool thing about all this is now the pancreas. Since we know it has 2 initial bouts of insulin release (upon eating and then 30 minutes later) it is detremental for optimal food timing to correct this leptin resistance problem. If it takes 3 hours for insulin levels to return back to baseline then why do we recommend snacking? it forces the pancreas to over produce this insulin (to get ready for the food coming in). Obviously this is different in trained individuals.
This got me thinking even more Wondering about how Gastric inhibitory peptide works in relation to dieting (mainlyketosis) ,Agouti, Leptin, NPY, and insulin.
Its proposed that GIP is stimulated via fat AND carbohydrate intake which increases insulin production. In theory that would mean that NPY and agouti drop ( lowering hunger) but leptin and insulin increase. How would this work in relation to a either caloric restricted diet or ketogenic diet. i just read a study A ketogenic diet impairs energy and glucose homeostasis by the attenuation of hypothalamic leptin signaling and hepatic insulin signaling in a rat model of non-obese type 2 diabetes the conclusion to this was essentially ketogenic diets mess up glucose metabolism by causing IR more then likely from increase GIP causing insulin secretion and leptin secretion. However this is in diabetic rat model in ketosis where as the the this article Gastric inhibitory polypeptide (GIP) dose-dependently stimulates glucagon secretion in healthy human subjects at euglycaemia is in euglycemics where GIP causes glucagon release. so in the study above it was harvesting leptin resistance in the brain.
Since in Ketogenic diets fat intake is high which means GIP stimulates insulin and leptin which aid in fat storage. So how is it that the ketogenic diet still works. I saw a study (Gastric inhibitory polypeptide (GIP) dose-dependently stimulates glucagon secretion in healthy human subjects at euglycaemia) saying that euglycemics it stimulates glucagon production which would mean GH rises and fat is burned. But how does that happen since the science shows that GIP increases insulin and thus leptin in a high fat meal. And if those are true the increase in NPY and agouti is decreased. It all seems contradictory.
Another thing is that supposedly n-3 and n-9 fats increase insulin sensitivity but if these fats increase IS then how can high fat cause insulin release and damage the pancreas by GIP secretion. Im a little confused and thus the contiuation of my research.
One thing that i do find interesting about GIP is that If in hyperglycemic state fat induced expression of this is significantly decreased. Its all so strange and so interesting at the same time.
Also in relation to GLP-1 and DPP-4 inhibitors (byetta, sitagliptin), how is it that they are diabetic agents if they increase GIP thus insulin and leptin causing hyperinsulinemia in DM2? Also if taking something like that wouldnt a pancreatin be proposed for additional treatment to reduce non glucose stimulated insulin release? So why would we have these drugs if they arent really fixing the root of all problems.
but how does all this relate to IF diet, and the link i posted above?
09-02-2011, 12:41 PM
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09-02-2011, 12:48 PM
I take around 8g every 2 hours of the fast. I also take 8g pre and post workout too.Originally Posted by gwls
Recoverbro Elite"This is what we've been working on"
09-02-2011, 12:50 PM
Keep in mind too even if insulin is raised and less lipolysis is happening doesn't mean that free fatty acids already in bloodstream aren't being used for fuel. So a short term reduction of lipolysis may very well be offset by other effects.
09-02-2011, 02:05 PM
I forgot to mention that there are quite a few people here at work that are starting lean gains, 2 have said they really love it and another I talked to is just starting. They want what the old fugger's got!! lol
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09-02-2011, 02:24 PM
09-02-2011, 04:31 PM
09-02-2011, 04:38 PM
I think a lot of us make things more complex than necessary
09-02-2011, 04:47 PM
Its not about picking chosing a dietary choice its about understanding all parts of dieting to ensure you can diet properly and effectivly
I personally have learned a lot on my own about this which makes it very easy for me to lean out and drop bodyfat extremely easy. Adding fasting into the mix also just adds more to it all in terms of CPT1 expression and PPARy attenuation and UCP3 activation. So ontop of what's mentioned you add that. Its crazy to place things all together just to learn about 1 diet let alone the hundreds out there
09-02-2011, 04:50 PM
I'm making it complex to burn fat as effiecently as I can. However I love the science behind it. So I'm in it all to learn. Then apply.
09-02-2011, 04:54 PM
09-02-2011, 05:35 PM
I believe the study is in euglycemics humans which shows GIP stimulates glucagon release which I assume why some people see normal and not super low sugars on a meter on the diet. And in terms of diabetics GIP hyperglycemia tends to lower the expression of fat induced GIP which is why in heavier individuals it may be better to start with a normal diet ratjer tjen a keto
But its known that GIP is stimulated by fat and carbs in humans from the small intestine. Hence questions and trying to learn
Just like leptin is the main regulator of fat loss in terms of thyroidal controll
Thus is the nature of science and understanding it to break plateaus without cutting to many calories is why its needed to be understood
09-02-2011, 09:32 PM
09-02-2011, 11:57 PM
hey guys iw as thinkin of trying this out but right now i cant lift for a while so i figured it woudl be a good tiem to experiment, however I am not trying to lose weight since I am very skinny, bout 150, but just trying to maintain waht I ahve while I am not able to lift....... I was thinkin 2200 cals if im not doin any type of cardio and maybe like 2500 If i do a little cardio ( 20 min low intensity) I ate last at 930- so id break fast at 130 with 60% cals - 130 pro, 99 carb, 45 fat, then round maybe 530 ish ill have bout 25% cals, 62 pro, 25 carb, 17 fat, and then roudn 9 do 50 pro 15 carb 10 fat (15% cals) then do it all over again? thanks for the input.......
cant lift heavy due to overtraineing, really bad, instrusctions from docotor
09-05-2011, 08:10 AM
Bump, I'm going to be training 6 days a week (3 weights days and 3 cardio/boxing days) but my boxing sessions are at 2100-2230 Monday, 1430-1630 Wednesday, and 1630-1800 Friday. My lifting sessions are probably going to be early morning sometime between 0700 and 0900.
My question is: does it matter if my fasting period isn't always 16 hours long to suit my boxing sessions or should I try to do my weight sessions roughly 24 hours after boxing to keep my diet more uniform?
Great thread btw!
09-05-2011, 12:27 PM
Breakfast today had to have been close to 2000 calories, around 130g protein, maybe 15g fat, and the rest carbs.
09-05-2011, 01:57 PM
09-05-2011, 07:58 PM
Breakfast is at noon. I usually train 7-8am, but today being a holiday I trained right before eatingOriginally Posted by james122
09-05-2011, 08:03 PM
Damn bro, that is a serious grub festOriginally Posted by EasyEJL
09-05-2011, 08:10 PM
09-06-2011, 04:20 PM
woudl this still be beneficial if im jsut trying to maintin my weight for the next month or so? Because I am up at 530-6 every morning and have to elave right away and dont want to get up any earlier, it is jsut alot more conveinient to not eat until 130 or so (last meal at 930 the night before) when I am home and can cook, rather than trying to make all my meals the night before and lose even more sleep........Also, anyone have any trouble getting cals in in such a short tiem? feel liek ur stuffing yourself, esp. the fast breaker? I mena I like eating so much but feel al ittle sick afterwards right now
09-06-2011, 05:19 PM
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09-06-2011, 08:09 PM
09-06-2011, 09:18 PM
09-07-2011, 02:41 PM
1) The LG diet does not increase insulin, so to speak. It increases insulin sensitivity. Basically, I understand it like this: when your body is releasing lots and lots of insulin several times per day, you might lose some effectiveness from it. So the point of fasting 16hrs everyday is to make your insulin more effective by increasing your body's sensitivity to it. Ever taken a PH or steroid? Do you not recall that the first time you did it your gains were far better than the average? And each time you took it thereafter the gains were less effective? Your sensitivity to the hormones went down, thus, the results were not as stellar. I could be wrong, but as I have read it on LG website I've gathered this much from it.
2) Ole Mark or whatever his name is (the guy who created the LG diet) has a really long and inclusive article particularly on leptins and leptin control and the benefits of using the LG diet in regards to this. Just go to his website and read up on it please.
3) Bottom line is - do the LG diet, lol. It works. At the very least you could do it for 6 weeks then go back to your typical diet plan and see which you wind up sticking with. my bet is on LeanGains...
09-07-2011, 02:45 PM
09-07-2011, 02:54 PM
09-07-2011, 04:38 PM
09-07-2011, 04:42 PM
the issue of insulin bleed is definitely there, when you cause a new insulin spike/release before the last insulin spike/release has all cleared. And also in general over-intake of carbs goes along those lines, particualrly simple sugars. Thats why i hate that people still try to push those post workout shakes with 100g of simple carbs + 50g protein down. recipe for type 2 diabetes, and getting fat.
Insulin insensitivity is a bit different than what people talk about with receptor downgrading, its more the issue of sensing for how much to release is wrong. Where receptor insensitivity means you are still making the "normal" amount but your body isn't using it all.
09-07-2011, 04:58 PM
Quick question for you guys on how you're calculating your daily calories...
I'm using the livestrong/daily plate calorie calculator, and it tells me I need roughly 2000 cals a day minimum on a cut. Should that be 2000 calories total? The reason I ask is because as I input my food for the day and then start to add in my exercise, the amount of "calories remaining" begins to go back up. So does that mean I need 2000 "net" calories a day, or am I looking at this wrong? It is telling me that I'm burning 640 cals via exercise and intaking 2074, for a net of 1434, and that I need another 600+ cals...
Does this sound right? I'm trying to finish cutting now, but I was always under the impression that you just calculated your daily cals using maintenance cals minus 500-750 or so...never considered having to add in cals burned via exercise.
Anyone here using livestrong/daily plate?
09-07-2011, 05:06 PM
but the maintenance is usually calculated as "lightly active" which just includes normal walking around and day to day activity, not exercising specifically. I've never used livestrong's calculators though but i'd think at 190 2000 net calories is around right for a cut, and your real maintenance is more like 2500-2900
09-07-2011, 05:21 PM
yeah I think so too. Using calculators, I figured my maintenance amount to be around 2400 calories but it's kinda hogwash too. I think my maintenance is truly around 2000 calories/day because I've been eating roughly 1800-2000 calories and have held weight (albeit burned some fat too). I lost an initial 6-7lbs since on LG about 2 months ago but have had a steady recomping an lingering around 147-150lbs. But being on cycle I find it really hard to incorporate severe caloric deficit into the LG diet. Eating like a bird and fasting for 16hrs doesn't match too well, lol. So I've limited myself to 'burn' and 'build' days kinda like RickRock did. I only have 3 days out of the week where I eat around 1500 calories/day. The rest I eat anywhere from 2000-2500 for maintenance. This seems to work so far as my burn days are cardio and abs only..
09-08-2011, 08:11 PM
Just my basic starting point estimate for most people to find maintenance calories.
Metabolism Type x body weight = Slow 12-13, Moderate 13-14, Fast 14-15
SO a 200 lb guy with slow would be between 2400-2600 , Moderate 2600-2800 cals, Fast 2800- 3000
Then for recomp is 20% under and 20% over so for a 2500 calorie maintanance 2000 on burn day and 3000 on build day
For a lean bulk my estimates would change to 10% under maintenance on burn / rest days and 30% over on workout days. Notice I leave the 40% gap between the 2 days but just move it up a bit.
MKretz you will be fine and the way you have it lined up is fine. With you not working out right now you shouldn't have any problems other than what you would in any other situation not working out. IE you look like you are naturally thin if this is the case and you have built some muscle there is a decent chance you will lose some of it regardless of any diet while off. However, it will rebound quickly. You want to maintain the size without lifting and have a fast metabolism then I would eat slightly over your maintenance and you will retain more although your cuts may diminish. Yet if naturally lean they will return faster than lost weight will when you start lifting. Just food for thought.
09-08-2011, 09:16 PM
Yeh man being in a big caloric defecit continuously is no fun at all. Doing "build days" and "burn days" has seemed to be the answer at least for me as well as some others. It looks like it is working pretty well for you too, and it is a great thing how you can customize lean gains to your personal specific goals and diet requirements. I am constantly changing things on this diet it seems like. Every couple weeks I've been re-evaluating my progress and adjusting from there. It has been nice being able to adjust to keep bodyfat at bay while adding in LBM. I've been tmroughly the same weight for a month now (maybe up 1lb) but have continued to lean somewhat. This diet is the sh1t!!Originally Posted by fueledpassion
Recoverbro Elite"This is what we've been working on"
09-09-2011, 02:53 PM
09-09-2011, 04:22 PM
So during the first part of the day where you fast for the first 8 hours or so upon waking up, is it okay to have energy drinks? Do they have to be zero calories? Also, what about vitamin tabs or mints that I have when I wake up that have like 5gms of calories, are those ok or not?
09-09-2011, 04:39 PM
The idea is to take in zero or near zero Cal's during your fast to avoid spiking insulin, so energy drinks are out. You can do a preworkout drink though. Most of those are zero or very little calories. There is some small calorie amounts that you can take in though. Things like sugarfree gum, crystal lite drink mix, fish oil, are all ok. Gum is around 5 Cal's stick and crystal lite is around 5 Cal's per serving also. Fish oil is about 10 Cal's per cap I think. Just keep it within those boundaries during your fast broOriginally Posted by JayRock
Recoverbro Elite"This is what we've been working on"
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