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    Quote Originally Posted by RickRock13

    I would definitely supplement with BCAA during your fast bro. Preworkout, postworkout and every 2 hours during the fast is how I do it and what Martin Berkhan(lean gains) recommends. It will help to keep protein synthesis going during the fast which can and will contribute to more muscle gained and retained.

    Recoverpro is a good choice for servings vs cost. It is also a 4:1:1 ratio which is great for the added Luecine. I think you bloated from xtend probably because of the glutamine in it. It does have that effect on some people. Hope this helps you bro
    Rick how much BCAA are you taking every two hrs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza
    What's up! So turns out my method/lifestyle isn't crazy after all! I've been living this lifestyle since I recovered from losing 90 pounds from anorexia 5 years ago... I kin of developed it on my own ( wasn't aware of it's existence) and I live it n love it... I like to stay as lean as possible year round... However, I have never really supplemented bcaa or any other form or protein / pre workout, and thus, I am obviously diminishing any GAINS in quality lean mass and definition...

    I am interested in using a pre workout bcaa, but I should note that I gain fat/retain water easily... So my fear is ingesting anything that will break my fast and raise blood sugar prior to working out... I have tried xtend from scivation but experienced bloating/water retention... I have used samples of recovery pro post workout n that seemed to agree with me well... Would that be suitable for pre workout?

    My workouts consist of 5-10 minutes of running at 8-9 mph followed by 20 mins of hiit at 9-10 mph and 4mph walking at one min intervals. Then I will lift. I hit each muscle twice a week except for shoulders (m, tues, thurs, fri) I do abs 4 days a week. That is followed by 10-15 more mins if low intensity cardio ellipt, tread, or stairmaster.

    Workouts r in afternoon around 2-3. I rise at 8-9 most days n don't ingest anything until 5-6 with feeding ending about 1030-11 pm.

    I guess the bulk concern is adding the bcaa which I feel will definitely help increase my quality muscle fullness n hardness n definition, I just don't want it raising my bloodsugar n halting fat burning during workouts...

    Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for your advice!

    Edit: I supplement with b vitamins, l carnitine, fat burner, test booster/ or anti estrogen depending on time of year, nitric oxide pills, multi v, will add vit d, tyrosine+5htp+Sam e (replaced anti depressant!!) , anabolic pump, big blend protein. I will be switching to a m,w,f full body hst variation I put together in October to really get some gains.

    Stats- 5'7" 159-162lbs (on a recomp with erase) bf estimated at 10-11.. Maybe lower but lack of fullness hindering definition
    Ched - Just an opinion but few things spring to mind, if you want to add lean mass are you sure you're getting in enough calories? Particularly in such a short feeding window? Have you considered breaking fast earlier and then ensuring you get in a pre and post-workout meal? Also, I know myself and a lot of other guys would probably suggest lifting first and cardio afterwards, you might want to try that before actually stopping/reducing it (someone more intelligent than me can explain the science behind lifting first)

    Just some additional ideas bro
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Just wait, **** will be coming out with a flavored bulk BCAA product in 6-8 weeks or so (stuff always gets delayed it seems). I wonder how it will measure up!
    intriging... I might just hold off in ordering my usually bulk order from another online retailer to see what comes out of ****
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    food for thought not sure if posted...

    http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org...52/3/657.short

    Interesting.

    just tossing this out to everyone to read...

    Insulin, as it rises, increases leptin. As you know thats fat in the white adipose tissue (which also harbors immune cells and inflamation markers), and regulates the way we disper energy. Leptin is in almost every cell of the body and there can be a resistance to this aswell. When this resistance occurs your bodys ability to use energy effeciently and properly burn fat contiues to be a hardship. This can be a reason why people who are seemingly overweight and dont eat much continue to gain weight.
    From this point doctors look now at the thyroid as underlying problem when what in essence happens is leptin is what is causing the bodys TSH level to rise as well as reverse t3. These are important number as when TSH and Reverse t3 is high it basically tells your body your starving and you store much easier.
    The cool thing about all this is now the pancreas. Since we know it has 2 initial bouts of insulin release (upon eating and then 30 minutes later) it is detremental for optimal food timing to correct this leptin resistance problem. If it takes 3 hours for insulin levels to return back to baseline then why do we recommend snacking? it forces the pancreas to over produce this insulin (to get ready for the food coming in). Obviously this is different in trained individuals.

    This got me thinking even more Wondering about how Gastric inhibitory peptide works in relation to dieting (mainlyketosis) ,Agouti, Leptin, NPY, and insulin.

    Its proposed that GIP is stimulated via fat AND carbohydrate intake which increases insulin production. In theory that would mean that NPY and agouti drop ( lowering hunger) but leptin and insulin increase. How would this work in relation to a either caloric restricted diet or ketogenic diet. i just read a study A ketogenic diet impairs energy and glucose homeostasis by the attenuation of hypothalamic leptin signaling and hepatic insulin signaling in a rat model of non-obese type 2 diabetes the conclusion to this was essentially ketogenic diets mess up glucose metabolism by causing IR more then likely from increase GIP causing insulin secretion and leptin secretion. However this is in diabetic rat model in ketosis where as the the this article Gastric inhibitory polypeptide (GIP) dose-dependently stimulates glucagon secretion in healthy human subjects at euglycaemia is in euglycemics where GIP causes glucagon release. so in the study above it was harvesting leptin resistance in the brain.


    Since in Ketogenic diets fat intake is high which means GIP stimulates insulin and leptin which aid in fat storage. So how is it that the ketogenic diet still works. I saw a study (Gastric inhibitory polypeptide (GIP) dose-dependently stimulates glucagon secretion in healthy human subjects at euglycaemia) saying that euglycemics it stimulates glucagon production which would mean GH rises and fat is burned. But how does that happen since the science shows that GIP increases insulin and thus leptin in a high fat meal. And if those are true the increase in NPY and agouti is decreased. It all seems contradictory.

    Another thing is that supposedly n-3 and n-9 fats increase insulin sensitivity but if these fats increase IS then how can high fat cause insulin release and damage the pancreas by GIP secretion. Im a little confused and thus the contiuation of my research.
    One thing that i do find interesting about GIP is that If in hyperglycemic state fat induced expression of this is significantly decreased. Its all so strange and so interesting at the same time.

    Also in relation to GLP-1 and DPP-4 inhibitors (byetta, sitagliptin), how is it that they are diabetic agents if they increase GIP thus insulin and leptin causing hyperinsulinemia in DM2? Also if taking something like that wouldnt a pancreatin be proposed for additional treatment to reduce non glucose stimulated insulin release? So why would we have these drugs if they arent really fixing the root of all problems.

    but how does all this relate to IF diet, and the link i posted above?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    intriging... I might just hold off in ordering my usually bulk order from another online retailer to see what comes out of ****
    It's a good 6-8 weeks out, if you can wait then cool, but there's also the possibility of delays as well. Just trying to watch out for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwls

    Rick how much BCAA are you taking every two hrs?
    I take around 8g every 2 hours of the fast. I also take 8g pre and post workout too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    Since in Ketogenic diets fat intake is high which means GIP stimulates insulin and leptin which aid in fat storage. So how is it that the ketogenic diet still works. I saw a study (Gastric inhibitory polypeptide (GIP) dose-dependently stimulates glucagon secretion in healthy human subjects at euglycaemia) saying that euglycemics it stimulates glucagon production which would mean GH rises and fat is burned. But how does that happen since the science shows that GIP increases insulin and thus leptin in a high fat meal. And if those are true the increase in NPY and agouti is decreased. It all seems contradictory.
    So much if it though is taking measurements of one or two hormones and basing what you expect results to be on that alone. There are numerous effects in the body of any dietary strategy, making it very difficult to base choices on one or two metabolic facets.

    Keep in mind too even if insulin is raised and less lipolysis is happening doesn't mean that free fatty acids already in bloodstream aren't being used for fuel. So a short term reduction of lipolysis may very well be offset by other effects.
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    I forgot to mention that there are quite a few people here at work that are starting lean gains, 2 have said they really love it and another I talked to is just starting. They want what the old fugger's got!! lol
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    I forgot to mention that there are quite a few people here at work that are starting lean gains, 2 have said they really love it and another I talked to is just starting. They want what the old fugger's got!! lol
    Because the Old Fugg is jacked diesel! Im with ya on that DW setting trends over here with Lean Gains...I think at least 3 people at my gym are LG soldiers now.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/252210-greens-climb-top.html#post4548443
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    So much if it though is taking measurements of one or two hormones and basing what you expect results to be on that alone. There are numerous effects in the body of any dietary strategy, making it very difficult to base choices on one or two metabolic facets. Keep in mind too even if insulin is raised and less lipolysis is happening doesn't mean that free fatty acids already in bloodstream aren't being used for fuel. So a short term reduction of lipolysis may very well be offset by other effects.
    If there are free fatty acids and insulin rises it gets repackaged to a certain degree But there's not just one or 2 things its NPY, Agouti, GIP, Thyroid, leptin, insulin, glucagon,
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    If there are free fatty acids and insulin rises it gets repackaged to a certain degree But there's not just one or 2 things its NPY, Agouti, GIP, Thyroid, leptin, insulin, glucagon,
    but there aren't human studies backing that. you are starting from what seems reasonable, and then theorizing a cascade of events that likely happens afterwards. But without studies showing that those other reactions do follow both in the case of carbohydrate ingestion and fat ingestion, its still just a guess. Even in that diabetes study, its unclear whether it was diabetics they used, type 1 diabetics or type 2, and whether that 1 hour after meal testing was done with the meal immediately following the 20 hour fast. So its hard to say how relevant any of it is.

    I think a lot of us make things more complex than necessary
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    Its not about picking chosing a dietary choice its about understanding all parts of dieting to ensure you can diet properly and effectivly

    I personally have learned a lot on my own about this which makes it very easy for me to lean out and drop bodyfat extremely easy. Adding fasting into the mix also just adds more to it all in terms of CPT1 expression and PPARy attenuation and UCP3 activation. So ontop of what's mentioned you add that. Its crazy to place things all together just to learn about 1 diet let alone the hundreds out there
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    I'm making it complex to burn fat as effiecently as I can. However I love the science behind it. So I'm in it all to learn. Then apply.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    I'm making it complex to burn fat as effiecently as I can. However I love the science behind it. So I'm in it all to learn. Then apply.
    yeah, me too, but when I see a chain of things I think leaves things so they don't work, but anectdotally it does work and I don't have anything thorough in studies to show that it doesn't, I tend to just leave it alone.
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    I believe the study is in euglycemics humans which shows GIP stimulates glucagon release which I assume why some people see normal and not super low sugars on a meter on the diet. And in terms of diabetics GIP hyperglycemia tends to lower the expression of fat induced GIP which is why in heavier individuals it may be better to start with a normal diet ratjer tjen a keto

    But its known that GIP is stimulated by fat and carbs in humans from the small intestine. Hence questions and trying to learn

    Just like leptin is the main regulator of fat loss in terms of thyroidal controll
    Thus is the nature of science and understanding it to break plateaus without cutting to many calories is why its needed to be understood
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    It's a good 6-8 weeks out, if you can wait then cool, but there's also the possibility of delays as well. Just trying to watch out for you.
    Thanks for looking out buddy!
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    hey guys iw as thinkin of trying this out but right now i cant lift for a while so i figured it woudl be a good tiem to experiment, however I am not trying to lose weight since I am very skinny, bout 150, but just trying to maintain waht I ahve while I am not able to lift....... I was thinkin 2200 cals if im not doin any type of cardio and maybe like 2500 If i do a little cardio ( 20 min low intensity) I ate last at 930- so id break fast at 130 with 60% cals - 130 pro, 99 carb, 45 fat, then round maybe 530 ish ill have bout 25% cals, 62 pro, 25 carb, 17 fat, and then roudn 9 do 50 pro 15 carb 10 fat (15% cals) then do it all over again? thanks for the input.......


    cant lift heavy due to overtraineing, really bad, instrusctions from docotor
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    Bump, I'm going to be training 6 days a week (3 weights days and 3 cardio/boxing days) but my boxing sessions are at 2100-2230 Monday, 1430-1630 Wednesday, and 1630-1800 Friday. My lifting sessions are probably going to be early morning sometime between 0700 and 0900.

    My question is: does it matter if my fasting period isn't always 16 hours long to suit my boxing sessions or should I try to do my weight sessions roughly 24 hours after boxing to keep my diet more uniform?

    Great thread btw!
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    Breakfast today had to have been close to 2000 calories, around 130g protein, maybe 15g fat, and the rest carbs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Breakfast today had to have been close to 2000 calories, around 130g protein, maybe 15g fat, and the rest carbs.
    what time is "breakfast" at do you train in the am?
    for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come 1 Tim 4:8
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    Quote Originally Posted by james122

    what time is "breakfast" at do you train in the am?
    Breakfast is at noon. I usually train 7-8am, but today being a holiday I trained right before eating
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL
    Breakfast today had to have been close to 2000 calories, around 130g protein, maybe 15g fat, and the rest carbs.
    Damn bro, that is a serious grub fest
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/252210-greens-climb-top.html#post4548443
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkretz View Post
    hey guys iw as thinkin of trying this out but right now i cant lift for a while so i figured it woudl be a good tiem to experiment, however I am not trying to lose weight since I am very skinny, bout 150, but just trying to maintain waht I ahve while I am not able to lift....... I was thinkin 2200 cals if im not doin any type of cardio and maybe like 2500 If i do a little cardio ( 20 min low intensity) I ate last at 930- so id break fast at 130 with 60% cals - 130 pro, 99 carb, 45 fat, then round maybe 530 ish ill have bout 25% cals, 62 pro, 25 carb, 17 fat, and then roudn 9 do 50 pro 15 carb 10 fat (15% cals) then do it all over again? thanks for the input.......


    cant lift heavy due to overtraineing, really bad, instrusctions from docotor
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziricote View Post
    Bump, I'm going to be training 6 days a week (3 weights days and 3 cardio/boxing days) but my boxing sessions are at 2100-2230 Monday, 1430-1630 Wednesday, and 1630-1800 Friday. My lifting sessions are probably going to be early morning sometime between 0700 and 0900.

    My question is: does it matter if my fasting period isn't always 16 hours long to suit my boxing sessions or should I try to do my weight sessions roughly 24 hours after boxing to keep my diet more uniform?

    Great thread btw!
    Not sure I understand the question you need to tell us when you 8/16 hour window would be in the first place for us to be able to offer much of a suggestion However honestly on a cardio day like boxing I would extend the fast if need be. Plus it does not always have to be the same hours it just helps due to the hunger learning a pattern so you aren't sitting around hungry. Bottom line though fasting say 14 hours one day and 18 the next is not going to be detrimental just get your cals in during the eating window even if it is shorter.
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    woudl this still be beneficial if im jsut trying to maintin my weight for the next month or so? Because I am up at 530-6 every morning and have to elave right away and dont want to get up any earlier, it is jsut alot more conveinient to not eat until 130 or so (last meal at 930 the night before) when I am home and can cook, rather than trying to make all my meals the night before and lose even more sleep........Also, anyone have any trouble getting cals in in such a short tiem? feel liek ur stuffing yourself, esp. the fast breaker? I mena I like eating so much but feel al ittle sick afterwards right now
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkretz View Post
    woudl this still be beneficial if im jsut trying to maintin my weight for the next month or so? Because I am up at 530-6 every morning and have to elave right away and dont want to get up any earlier, it is jsut alot more conveinient to not eat until 130 or so (last meal at 930 the night before) when I am home and can cook, rather than trying to make all my meals the night before and lose even more sleep........Also, anyone have any trouble getting cals in in such a short tiem? feel liek ur stuffing yourself, esp. the fast breaker? I mena I like eating so much but feel al ittle sick afterwards right now
    Its all about customization bro, don't work for Lean Gains...make Lean Gains work for you. You'd be surprised how much you can tweak this protocol, yet see amazing results.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/252210-greens-climb-top.html#post4548443
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurningGreen View Post
    Its all about customization bro, don't work for Lean Gains...make Lean Gains work for you. You'd be surprised how much you can tweak this protocol, yet see amazing results.
    well aiming for aout 2500 cals, what I do is last meal at 930....eat at 130, about 60% cals (1500_ then have another meal about 600 cals around 630 and another around 500 around 930 ..does this sound ok?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    food for thought not sure if posted...

    http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org...52/3/657.short

    Interesting.

    but how does all this relate to IF diet, and the link i posted above
    ?
    Well, I'm no expert but I do know a few things regarding this.

    1) The LG diet does not increase insulin, so to speak. It increases insulin sensitivity. Basically, I understand it like this: when your body is releasing lots and lots of insulin several times per day, you might lose some effectiveness from it. So the point of fasting 16hrs everyday is to make your insulin more effective by increasing your body's sensitivity to it. Ever taken a PH or steroid? Do you not recall that the first time you did it your gains were far better than the average? And each time you took it thereafter the gains were less effective? Your sensitivity to the hormones went down, thus, the results were not as stellar. I could be wrong, but as I have read it on LG website I've gathered this much from it.

    2) Ole Mark or whatever his name is (the guy who created the LG diet) has a really long and inclusive article particularly on leptins and leptin control and the benefits of using the LG diet in regards to this. Just go to his website and read up on it please.

    3) Bottom line is - do the LG diet, lol. It works. At the very least you could do it for 6 weeks then go back to your typical diet plan and see which you wind up sticking with. my bet is on LeanGains...
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurningGreen View Post
    Its all about customization bro, don't work for Lean Gains...make Lean Gains work for you. You'd be surprised how much you can tweak this protocol, yet see amazing results.
    Dang bro, good post. Good freakin post! This is why LG dominates other diets. It's customizable to taylor to each man's needs!
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Well, I'm no expert but I do know a few things regarding this.

    1) The LG diet does not increase insulin, so to speak. It increases insulin sensitivity. Basically, I understand it like this: when your body is releasing lots and lots of insulin several times per day, you might lose some effectiveness from it. So the point of fasting 16hrs everyday is to make your insulin more effective by increasing your body's sensitivity to it. Ever taken a PH or steroid? Do you not recall that the first time you did it your gains were far better than the average? And each time you took it thereafter the gains were less effective? Your sensitivity to the hormones went down, thus, the results were not as stellar. I could be wrong, but as I have read it on LG website I've gathered this much from it.
    fasting increases insulin sensitivity. insulin sensitivity is your body putting out the right amount of insulin for the amount of carbohydrates ingested. Not too much, not too little. generally insulin insensitivty is from too much in carbohydrates too often, with your body having insulin pulses perpetually overlapping each other to where eventually it continues to output more insulin than you need for what you ate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    fasting increases insulin sensitivity. insulin sensitivity is your body putting out the right amount of insulin for the amount of carbohydrates ingested. Not too much, not too little. generally insulin insensitivty is from too much in carbohydrates too often, with your body having insulin pulses perpetually overlapping each other to where eventually it continues to output more insulin than you need for what you ate.
    Ok, so part of my thought process was correct in believing that several meals per day could create too much output of insulin..while I was incorrect about insulin sensitivity...
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Ok, so part of my thought process was correct in believing that several meals per day could create too much output of insulin..while I was incorrect about insulin sensitivity...
    yeah really more or less the same thing.

    the issue of insulin bleed is definitely there, when you cause a new insulin spike/release before the last insulin spike/release has all cleared. And also in general over-intake of carbs goes along those lines, particualrly simple sugars. Thats why i hate that people still try to push those post workout shakes with 100g of simple carbs + 50g protein down. recipe for type 2 diabetes, and getting fat.

    Insulin insensitivity is a bit different than what people talk about with receptor downgrading, its more the issue of sensing for how much to release is wrong. Where receptor insensitivity means you are still making the "normal" amount but your body isn't using it all.
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    Quick question for you guys on how you're calculating your daily calories...

    I'm using the livestrong/daily plate calorie calculator, and it tells me I need roughly 2000 cals a day minimum on a cut. Should that be 2000 calories total? The reason I ask is because as I input my food for the day and then start to add in my exercise, the amount of "calories remaining" begins to go back up. So does that mean I need 2000 "net" calories a day, or am I looking at this wrong? It is telling me that I'm burning 640 cals via exercise and intaking 2074, for a net of 1434, and that I need another 600+ cals...

    Does this sound right? I'm trying to finish cutting now, but I was always under the impression that you just calculated your daily cals using maintenance cals minus 500-750 or so...never considered having to add in cals burned via exercise.

    Anyone here using livestrong/daily plate?
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    but the maintenance is usually calculated as "lightly active" which just includes normal walking around and day to day activity, not exercising specifically. I've never used livestrong's calculators though but i'd think at 190 2000 net calories is around right for a cut, and your real maintenance is more like 2500-2900
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    yeah I think so too. Using calculators, I figured my maintenance amount to be around 2400 calories but it's kinda hogwash too. I think my maintenance is truly around 2000 calories/day because I've been eating roughly 1800-2000 calories and have held weight (albeit burned some fat too). I lost an initial 6-7lbs since on LG about 2 months ago but have had a steady recomping an lingering around 147-150lbs. But being on cycle I find it really hard to incorporate severe caloric deficit into the LG diet. Eating like a bird and fasting for 16hrs doesn't match too well, lol. So I've limited myself to 'burn' and 'build' days kinda like RickRock did. I only have 3 days out of the week where I eat around 1500 calories/day. The rest I eat anywhere from 2000-2500 for maintenance. This seems to work so far as my burn days are cardio and abs only..
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    Just my basic starting point estimate for most people to find maintenance calories.

    Metabolism Type x body weight = Slow 12-13, Moderate 13-14, Fast 14-15
    SO a 200 lb guy with slow would be between 2400-2600 , Moderate 2600-2800 cals, Fast 2800- 3000
    Then for recomp is 20% under and 20% over so for a 2500 calorie maintanance 2000 on burn day and 3000 on build day

    For a lean bulk my estimates would change to 10% under maintenance on burn / rest days and 30% over on workout days. Notice I leave the 40% gap between the 2 days but just move it up a bit.


    MKretz you will be fine and the way you have it lined up is fine. With you not working out right now you shouldn't have any problems other than what you would in any other situation not working out. IE you look like you are naturally thin if this is the case and you have built some muscle there is a decent chance you will lose some of it regardless of any diet while off. However, it will rebound quickly. You want to maintain the size without lifting and have a fast metabolism then I would eat slightly over your maintenance and you will retain more although your cuts may diminish. Yet if naturally lean they will return faster than lost weight will when you start lifting. Just food for thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion
    yeah I think so too. Using calculators, I figured my maintenance amount to be around 2400 calories but it's kinda hogwash too. I think my maintenance is truly around 2000 calories/day because I've been eating roughly 1800-2000 calories and have held weight (albeit burned some fat too). I lost an initial 6-7lbs since on LG about 2 months ago but have had a steady recomping an lingering around 147-150lbs. But being on cycle I find it really hard to incorporate severe caloric deficit into the LG diet. Eating like a bird and fasting for 16hrs doesn't match too well, lol. So I've limited myself to 'burn' and 'build' days kinda like RickRock did. I only have 3 days out of the week where I eat around 1500 calories/day. The rest I eat anywhere from 2000-2500 for maintenance. This seems to work so far as my burn days are cardio and abs only..
    Yeh man being in a big caloric defecit continuously is no fun at all. Doing "build days" and "burn days" has seemed to be the answer at least for me as well as some others. It looks like it is working pretty well for you too, and it is a great thing how you can customize lean gains to your personal specific goals and diet requirements. I am constantly changing things on this diet it seems like. Every couple weeks I've been re-evaluating my progress and adjusting from there. It has been nice being able to adjust to keep bodyfat at bay while adding in LBM. I've been tmroughly the same weight for a month now (maybe up 1lb) but have continued to lean somewhat. This diet is the sh1t!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Just my basic starting point estimate for most people to find maintenance calories.

    Metabolism Type x body weight = Slow 12-13, Moderate 13-14, Fast 14-15
    SO a 200 lb guy with slow would be between 2400-2600 , Moderate 2600-2800 cals, Fast 2800- 3000
    Then for recomp is 20% under and 20% over so for a 2500 calorie maintanance 2000 on burn day and 3000 on build day

    For a lean bulk my estimates would change to 10% under maintenance on burn / rest days and 30% over on workout days. Notice I leave the 40% gap between the 2 days but just move it up a bit.


    MKretz you will be fine and the way you have it lined up is fine. With you not working out right now you shouldn't have any problems other than what you would in any other situation not working out. IE you look like you are naturally thin if this is the case and you have built some muscle there is a decent chance you will lose some of it regardless of any diet while off. However, it will rebound quickly. You want to maintain the size without lifting and have a fast metabolism then I would eat slightly over your maintenance and you will retain more although your cuts may diminish. Yet if naturally lean they will return faster than lost weight will when you start lifting. Just food for thought.


    thanks alot i really appreciate it....im not srue exactl what my maintainence is so im playin aroudn right now right aroudn that 2500 calorie mark to see hwo i do
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    So during the first part of the day where you fast for the first 8 hours or so upon waking up, is it okay to have energy drinks? Do they have to be zero calories? Also, what about vitamin tabs or mints that I have when I wake up that have like 5gms of calories, are those ok or not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayRock
    So during the first part of the day where you fast for the first 8 hours or so upon waking up, is it okay to have energy drinks? Do they have to be zero calories? Also, what about vitamin tabs or mints that I have when I wake up that have like 5gms of calories, are those ok or not?
    The idea is to take in zero or near zero Cal's during your fast to avoid spiking insulin, so energy drinks are out. You can do a preworkout drink though. Most of those are zero or very little calories. There is some small calorie amounts that you can take in though. Things like sugarfree gum, crystal lite drink mix, fish oil, are all ok. Gum is around 5 Cal's stick and crystal lite is around 5 Cal's per serving also. Fish oil is about 10 Cal's per cap I think. Just keep it within those boundaries during your fast bro
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