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The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

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  1. MrKleen73's Avatar
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    I simply adjust my eating window for the day or chalk it up to a non important for that day and not even consider it. Unless getting ready for a competition an extra 500 even 1000 cals one day out of many isn't going to hurt you one bit. If you get in a habit of doing that then yes it would be a problem. Now if you mean going back to regular eating as in normally. Yeah that would suck. However I can't imagine a reason for me personally that would make me choose to go back to the old way I ate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    the piece I worry about a little as I shift from how I was eating to this is that with first meal at noon, i'll likely only eat 2 real meals with maybe a snack inbetween. So I worry a little that i'll get used to the meals being of that size and times when I don't eat IF style (ie go have breakfast somewhere) i'll way too easily go over daily total cals.
    I have found, for me atleast(and I have one of the worst metabolisms ever), it didn't make a difference, when in maintenance/recomp mode.

    I would stick to IF monday-saturday. Saturday I would fast all day until dinner, go out for dinner with friends/wife, and literally KILL it. I mean to the point that I would go to a nice restaurant, eat a meal, walk out and hit up a subway/chipotle next door, then get fro-yo..lol

    Sunday mornings I would often go out for breakfast and again, eat so much it would make people sick just looking at me.lol Fast the rest of the day, have a normal-ish dinner.

    Even during the week my big nightly meals were atleast 1-2x a week big ass chipotle burritos, and less then clean.

    You will have to play with things for yourself, and see what you can get away with.
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    Thanks for the input on the aminos, guys.

    Like I said, the trickiest part for me is giving my body ample time to have the synthroid and not have it be interfered with.

    What I'll likely do is pop it as soon as I wake and then about 1.5 hours or so later, take some, eat 12-8, then again right before bed have aminos.
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    Quote Originally Posted by imprezivr6 View Post
    I have found, for me atleast(and I have one of the worst metabolisms ever), it didn't make a difference, when in maintenance/recomp mode.

    I would stick to IF monday-saturday. Saturday I would fast all day until dinner, go out for dinner with friends/wife, and literally KILL it. I mean to the point that I would go to a nice restaurant, eat a meal, walk out and hit up a subway/chipotle next door, then get fro-yo..lol

    Sunday mornings I would often go out for breakfast and again, eat so much it would make people sick just looking at me.lol Fast the rest of the day, have a normal-ish dinner.

    Even during the week my big nightly meals were atleast 1-2x a week big ass chipotle burritos, and less then clean.

    You will have to play with things for yourself, and see what you can get away with.
    Man good idea that would so work.... another idea to use when on vacation...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    Martin talks about taking cals real low in his recomp program.

    I don't consider him the be-all/end-all authority on fasting though. I'm gaining weight and strength on my current regimen, but it's still a bit early before I would recommend anyone else try this.. I take leucine throughout my fast.

    It's the same basic premise as LG - don't eat for a while, then eat a lot within a given time frame. I've just lengthened the fast to about 24hr and the eating window to about 12.
    Oh I got ya, I've never see that article; can you throw me a link if you can recall it? You'll have to keep me/us updated on your progress too.

    Also ,are you taking in a mixture of BCAAs or exclusively leucine while you fast?

    Quote Originally Posted by mkretz View Post
    when u guys are trying to get ur cals in.....on a lifting day lets say, do u jsut eat whatever u want, or do u still try to stick with low carb or "healthier" foods, or do u go hit up mcdonalds lol
    Typically, LIFT DAY = more carbs, less fat; REST DAY = more fast, less carbs. However, I understand it's fine to include some carbs on rest days as well (usually in the form of fruit).

    I rarely get ****ty food, I use ONE PostWO refeed (saturday night) as a "cheat" refeed where I'll eat more than I usually would and will include something bad like three-meat pizza.

    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    How often do you guys utilize leucine or BCAAs during your fasted portion?
    I may be wrong, but I always thought taking in BCAAs was only critical if you were forced to lift and then couldn't take in your PostWO meal right away. Like if you lift around 12PM and have to work or have no time at all to eat a big meal until 5PM, you could take BCAAs every couple hours to promote protein synthesis. Kind of like HoustonTexas outlined on the next page actually.

    The only time I use BCAAs during the fasted portion is right before low-intensity cardio (e.g. brisk walking) and before and during weight training.

    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post
    I lift from about 4:30-5:30am 3 days a week now (GVT). This means I should do the following routine on lifting days correct:

    What about non lifting days? Should I still supplement BCAA's in the morning or just run them with nothing until I reach my eating window?
    I think you'd be fine just fasting regularly unless you're going to perform some cardio -- then I would recommend some BCAAs beforehand and potentially afterwards.

    Also, be careful with the GVT on this program as the high volume can eventually become too much if you're consistently training in a fasted state -- first-hand experience!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    if you believe that a good selection of amino's to use intra training, one that are not competitive in absorption, are not a profound difference, so we have very different opinions. I'm not a fan of BCAA's as i believe is a waist of money, if i buy only BCAA's based products i will buy only leucine.
    That's totally fine and they are damn expensive, although I feel like there have been studies that indicate amino acids prior to weight training is superior in promoting protein synthesis and glycogen uptake in muscle cells post-workout.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I can't imagine a reason for me personally that would make me choose to go back to the old way I ate.
    It seems this only becomes more and more evident as time goes on.
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    Today is a lower calories day for me and my fast breaking meal is 2 cans of tuna mixed with 1 cup lowfat cottage cheese, half oz of sunflower seeds, 8 large green olives and a good amount of pepper. Over all protein about 75-80 grams for the meal. I am having a large granny smith apple along with it to provide carbohydrates. I will have a snack later then a larger meal again for dinner getting my overal protein intake up around 200 grams for the day. I will have about 8 oz of lean ground turkey tonight, and I will more than likely have a cup of blueberries in some type of protein sorbet tonight topping carbs off at about 75-100 grams for the day, everything else will be fat and in moderate amounts. A good 6-8 grams of this will be in triple strength fish oils that I get 900 mg of omega per pill 1400mg pill. That basically give an idea of what a really clean day on the cut can be like depending on what you like to eat. I use a lot of convenience meals I can mix easly like the tuna and cottage cheese or I pre cook 8-16 oz of meat for that fast breaker depending on the day. It really just depends. Some days when i still feel full from the day before I will just do 100 grams of protein powder mixed in with some blueberries for a fast breaker it really just depends.
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    Red Dog, I don't have a link to that article by Martin, but it IS somewhere in his blog. If you google "Lean gains Recomp Protocol" you should find it reasonably quick.

    I use straight leucine because, IMO, the other BCAAs are superfluous - Leucine is the specific anabolic ligand, so I load up on that. Also, I would have to take much more BCAA to get an equivalent dose of Leucine.

    I like protocol more than Xtend - none of the ingredients are "filler" - if only they made Protocol taste as good as Xtend...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    I think you'd be fine just fasting regularly unless you're going to perform some cardio -- then I would recommend some BCAAs beforehand and potentially afterwards.
    Yah this is how I will deal with cardio during fasting then... I guess it will not be necessary to take in any more.
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  10. MrKleen73's Avatar
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    On top of this a study listend in Judo's log states that the body actually burns more fat if a small amount of protein/aminos are taken pre workout. So could also have a nice effect on that side of it. I think aminos around the workout are probably more important than any of the doses taken afterwards. EI the doses taken 2-4 hours post Workout before the fast breaking meal for those of us who only train using the Amino Acid protocal outlined on the Lean Gains website. Remember his set up is to optimize muscle growth so using the aminos is a requirement since his diet is to build an "above and beyond" physique. Of course like I said there is NO CHANCE of catabolism from training in a temporarily fasted state EI 16-36 hours. However trying to induce the protein synthesis in the absence of a meal aminos is the best bet.

    I am going to interject that I think Glutamine should also be taken with the Luecine to truly optimize the stimulation for protein synthesis. L-Glutamine also increases protein synthesis and aids in the process as well. On top of this 2 grams of LGlutamine has been shown to cause a decent release in Growth hormone. Growth hormone increases lypolisis, as well as protein synthesis. I would try to make a mix that includes at least 2 grams of LGlutamine with 6-8 grams of luecine.

    Make no mistake that L-GLutamine has excellent bioavailability. You will bee people state that id only has about 50% bioavailablity. However this is not true, only about 53% become available for the muscle to use however the intestines and liver take up the rest of the glutamine to supply to the immune system first then what is left is sent to the blood stream where the muscles can pick it up. However the ability for a little glutamine to increase protein synthesis makes your other proteins of more use to the muscle so don't get hung up on some of the claims that it it not bioavailable. It is but most of us meat heads only care about the part directly available to the muscle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    I may be wrong, but I always thought taking in BCAAs was only critical if you were forced to lift and then couldn't take in your PostWO meal right away. Like if you lift around 12PM and have to work or have no time at all to eat a big meal until 5PM, you could take BCAAs every couple hours to promote protein synthesis. Kind of like HoustonTexas outlined on the next page actually.

    The only time I use BCAAs during the fasted portion is right before low-intensity cardio (e.g. brisk walking) and before and during weight training.
    Thanks for your input.

    That's what I was trying to figure out (I know people have different thoughts on this). I do my training around my meals and I utilize BCAAs intra-workout, too.

    However, back in the days of eating ever 2.5-3 hours for fear that metabolism would drop, I'd lose muscle, etc., I would toss BCAAs in for replacement when I couldn't eat and upon rising if not eating immediately and right before bed. I just didn't know how important these were in a fasted state if not around workout times; just in general.
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    I think the role of BCAA is being oversimplified for anti-catabolic purposes. It does a lot more for protein synthesis (keep you building muscle, not just avoid catabolism), as well as other protein expression. Martin mentions:

    "For fasted sessions, ingest 10 g branched chain amino acids (BCAA) shortly prior (5-15 mins) to your training session. This does not count towards the 8-hour feeding window that I advocate post-workout; that starts with your post-workout meal. By ingesting BCAA pre-workout, we can sidestep the increased protein breakdown of fasted training while still reaping the benefits of the increased anabolic response as seen in this study. Not only that, BCAAs actually increase phosphorylation of p70s6k when ingested in the fasted state prior to training. So by training fasted, with BCAA intake prior to sessions, we get a double whammy of increased p70s6k phosphorylation that should create a very favorable environment for muscle growth in the post-workout period. "

    I'd just keep using the BCAA every 2 hours as recommended to keep protein synthesis going.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    I'd just keep using the BCAA every 2 hours as recommended to keep protein synthesis going.
    Not a bad idea at all, but it would hit you in the wallet pretty hard.

    Assuming 8 awake hours of fasting and 10g BCAA per serving, that's at least 50g each day (10g at 0:2:4:6:8 hour mark after waking) without adding any extra surrounding cardio or intraWO.

    1000g BCAA = MIN $40 (Bulk NP) = 20 days MAX (@50g per day)

    So at that rate, 1 month = ~$60 spent on BCAA. It would be sweet, but pretty expensive.
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    Does anybody have any updates regarding MB's book? I really don't know anyone who does consultations with him or I would just ask them to mention it to him sometime.

    He's been talking about it for years now!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Not a bad idea at all, but it would hit you in the wallet pretty hard.

    Assuming 8 awake hours of fasting and 10g BCAA per serving, that's at least 50g each day (10g at 0:2:4:6:8 hour mark after waking) without adding any extra surrounding cardio or intraWO.

    1000g BCAA = MIN $40 (Bulk NP) = 20 days MAX (@50g per day)

    So at that rate, 1 month = ~$60 spent on BCAA. It would be sweet, but pretty expensive.
    I believe Layne Norton recommends 5g of leucine once an hour taken all at once for anabolism. Would be a good bit cheaper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Not a bad idea at all, but it would hit you in the wallet pretty hard.

    Assuming 8 awake hours of fasting and 10g BCAA per serving, that's at least 50g each day (10g at 0:2:4:6:8 hour mark after waking) without adding any extra surrounding cardio or intraWO.

    1000g BCAA = MIN $40 (Bulk NP) = 20 days MAX (@50g per day)

    So at that rate, 1 month = ~$60 spent on BCAA. It would be sweet, but pretty expensive.
    MF has 4:1:1 bulk BCAA for $55 for 5lbs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post
    I lift from about 4:30-5:30am 3 days a week now (GVT). This means I should do the following routine on lifting days correct:

    4:20am BCAA
    5:40am BCAA
    8:00am BCAA
    10:00am BCAA
    12pm-8pm eating window
    *wash, rinse, repeat

    Would I be good with BCAA's at 9am instead of both 8am and 10am?

    What about non lifting days? Should I still supplement BCAA's in the morning or just run them with nothing until I reach my eating window?


    Nice. AFter reading Kleens comment. This is pretty much my exact lifestyle

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I believe Layne Norton recommends 5g of leucine once an hour taken all at once for anabolism. Would be a good bit cheaper.
    Got ya; definitely cheaper.

    Quote Originally Posted by imprezivr6 View Post
    MF has 4:1:1 bulk BCAA for $55 for 5lbs.
    Oh very nice; the 4:1:1 ratio probably drops it down a bit (I think a lot of them are 2:1:1 right?) but that's a lot more manageable on a budget -- thanks!
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    Kleen I know you already laid it out somewhat in terms of what a sample day of food - specific items looks like - but can some other people give some sample meals and lists of food .. i have been reading and reading and thinking about taking on this approach. I would probably be leaning towards the one PreWO meal protocol. Just looking for a pseudo-stencil on how to shape my diet in terms of Macros for each meal. Are there specific foods one must stay away from? I rarely cheat and everything is usually of one ingredient (besides my Whey). Any .02 is greatly appreciated!!

    Currently I use a Paleo for Athletes type diet with oats/grains only at breakfast and PreWO ( if legs or otherwise extra taxing workout I use grains for Post WO as well). I am currently sitting at 7% BF based on the six point caliper test, but would like to see where this Lean Gains/IF approach can take me .. especially where it can keep me...
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    On the lean gains site he has some dishes and recipes. basically that first meal maybe 40-50 grams protein, 35-40 grams carbs, lower fat keep it light and easy to digest is my recommendation. Then the meal after your workout you would want to consume probably 50-60% of your calories in that meal then the rest on your final meal.

    My dinner tonight consisted of about 12 oz worth of lean ground turkey breast in spaghetti sauce no noodles and about 20 green grapes. Happy camper, and tomorrow I get to eat big.
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    Lunch (fast break at 12PM)

    10-12 oz grilled chicken breast
    3 cups lettuce/spinach mix (salad)
    1/2 cup soy nuts (salad)
    1 cup brocolli (salad)
    1/2 cup carrots (salad)
    2 tbsp Newmans Fat Free Low Cal Dressing
    2 tbsp bacon bits (salad)
    1 medium apple
    4 tbsp Naturally More Peanut Butter
    1 slice Layne Norton Cheesecake
    1 scoop Macro Greens
    1L water


    Snack (4PM)
    3 hard boiled eggs, whole
    3 egg whites
    Cholula hot sauce
    1L water

    Dinner (6PM)
    6-10 oz chicken/fish/beef
    1 cup green beans (or other veggie)
    1 slice Layne Norton Cheesecake
    1L water

    Dessert (tastes like a Shamrock Shake!) (just before 8PM)
    1 scoop myofusion
    1 scoop oximega greens
    1L water
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    thanks Milas!.. and when do you train .. early AM im guessing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Not a bad idea at all, but it would hit you in the wallet pretty hard.

    Assuming 8 awake hours of fasting and 10g BCAA per serving, that's at least 50g each day (10g at 0:2:4:6:8 hour mark after waking) without adding any extra surrounding cardio or intraWO.

    1000g BCAA = MIN $40 (Bulk NP) = 20 days MAX (@50g per day)

    So at that rate, 1 month = ~$60 spent on BCAA. It would be sweet, but pretty expensive.

    BCAAs can get expensive depending on how much you are taking in. I take in usually 30g a day. 10g pre workout, 10g post and 10g 2 hours later which is 2 hours before breaking the fast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by acwingfoot View Post
    thanks Milas!.. and when do you train .. early AM im guessing?
    Yep, in the gym by 6AM. 1-1.5 hrs weights, 10-30 minutes cardio, BCAA intra. Head to the office, and get a liter of water with more BCAA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickRock13 View Post
    BCAAs can get expensive depending on how much you are taking in. I take in usually 30g a day. 10g pre workout, 10g post and 10g 2 hours later which is 2 hours before breaking the fast.
    Or you could buy bulk BCAA for $20 a kilo, but you'd have to be smart about your powders. That or give your muscles a feast.

    Personally though, I like Xtend, BC+EAA and Purple Wraath. At some point maybe I'll do bulk and crystal light, but I've got a stash to burn through first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Or you could buy bulk BCAA for $20 a kilo, but you'd have to be smart about your powders. That or give your muscles a feast.

    Personally though, I like Xtend, BC+EAA and Purple Wraath. At some point maybe I'll do bulk and crystal light, but I've got a stash to burn through first.
    Ive been using modern bcaa, or other bcaa product around workouts(with additional bulk), and bulk/crystal light the rest of the day.
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    great thread idea here
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Or you could buy bulk BCAA for $20 a kilo, but you'd have to be smart about your powders. That or give your muscles a feast.

    Personally though, I like Xtend, BC+EAA and Purple Wraath. At some point maybe I'll do bulk and crystal light, but I've got a stash to burn through first.
    I have thought about going the bulk and crystal light route, as its definitely cheaper. But I love the taste and convenience of xtend so that's what I am using at least for now. Purple wraath is something I want to try too, but is more expensive than xtend
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    Bulk is the way to go. I get my BCAA and creatine in bulk form that way I can get exactly the amount I want. I mix a scoop of BCAA into my pre-workout drink, and a scoop of each in some 0 calorie sports drink for during my workouts.
  30. Sik
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    That's totally fine and they are damn expensive, although I feel like there have been studies that indicate amino acids prior to weight training is superior in promoting protein synthesis and glycogen uptake in muscle cells post-workout.
    Leucine is not so expensive... As already referred here about Datbtrue, please check there some studies!

    Why don't take only leucine intraworkout? You still can take advantages of that increase in glycogen uptake and protein synthesis with only leucine intra WO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Leucine is not so expensive... As already referred here about Datbtrue, please check there some studies!

    Why don't take only leucine intraworkout? You still can take advantages of that increase in glycogen uptake and protein synthesis with only leucine intra WO.
    Oh I understand the usefulness of leucine; I have quite a bit of bulk leucine to use actually!

    In my post I was just responding to your comment about BCAA being a "waste of money" by showing that there are documented benefits of consuming amino acids before a workout -- that's all.

    But yes, I hear that leucine also works well by itself and is considerably cheaper.
  32. Sik
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    The question is that IMO, not works well itself, WORKS Better!!

    Just my opinion, maybe some don't agree. Nevertheless, there are a lot of different options nowadays! Bulk rules
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    Wow this thread has really exploded since I subbed! Great to see so much interest and open-mindedness with this diet.

    I have to go back and read to catch up but looks like a great discussion going on here about amino consumption

    This is my fasting mix and I usually have 3 of them before breaking my fast
    7g EAA
    7g BCAA
    6g Glutamine
    2g Taurine
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Today is the my first day on IF. I actually got more sleep than I normally do last night, but I still feel very out of it in this fasted state. I feel like I am not thinking as clearly or as quickly as I usually am plus I just have that overwhelmingly tired feeling. I know I read somewhere that you may experience more energy etc in the fasted state so I am curious as to why I feel so tired. Does my body just have to adjust first since it is used to having food by now? Something like switching to a CKD diet or something. Initial lethargy followed by my body adapting to its new routine. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Wow this thread has really exploded since I subbed! Great to see so much interest and open-mindedness with this diet.

    I have to go back and read to catch up but looks like a great discussion going on here about amino consumption

    This is my fasting mix and I usually have 3 of them before breaking my fast
    7g EAA
    7g BCAA
    6g Glutamine
    2g Taurine
    Mine is the same ingredients but 50% BCAA 25% EAA's, 15 Gluatamine and 10 Taurine... I got this off of Kabuki when he was doing his modified warrior diet... Chris has an intereting sounding mixture, can't remember what it is...
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post
    Today is the my first day on IF. I actually got more sleep than I normally do last night, but I still feel very out of it in this fasted state. I feel like I am not thinking as clearly or as quickly as I usually am plus I just have that overwhelmingly tired feeling. I know I read somewhere that you may experience more energy etc in the fasted state so I am curious as to why I feel so tired. Does my body just have to adjust first since it is used to having food by now? Something like switching to a CKD diet or something. Initial lethargy followed by my body adapting to its new routine. Thanks.
    There is an adjustment period just stick with it...
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post
    Today is the my first day on IF. I actually got more sleep than I normally do last night, but I still feel very out of it in this fasted state. I feel like I am not thinking as clearly or as quickly as I usually am plus I just have that overwhelmingly tired feeling. I know I read somewhere that you may experience more energy etc in the fasted state so I am curious as to why I feel so tired. Does my body just have to adjust first since it is used to having food by now? Something like switching to a CKD diet or something. Initial lethargy followed by my body adapting to its new routine. Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    There is an adjustment period just stick with it...
    Yeah, I agree that it takes some bodies a bit to switch over. The nice side is that if you take stimulants, they're even more effective/potent!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Yeah, I agree that it takes some bodies a bit to switch over. The nice side is that if you take stimulants, they're even more effective/potent!
    I'm pretty energiized on this regime.. It's a good opportunity to give my adrenals a rest. Now when i do take stims they will work like they used to.
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    I'm f@#$@# well dying here watching the clock waiting for noon.
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I'm f@#$@# well dying here watching the clock waiting for noon.
    I'm with you! I took a Dexaprine to help curb appetite, and just had to eat a fiber cracker (only 12 calories, 5g fiber). Nearly puked on the first swallow!
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