The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

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    I may. I just wonder if it is less optimal for most of my fasting to be done while I am fairly in-active.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas

    I'm the same, I train at 6AM and eat at noon. Drink lots of BCAA or take amino supplements like **** Gear from post workout until noon to help keep MPS up.
    I generally only bother with BCAA intraworkout. Not sure that raising mps really makes a,difference fasted, in the absence of other fuel
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I generally only bother with BCAA intraworkout. Not sure that raising mps really makes a,difference fasted, in the absence of other fuel
    Martin recommends it for his early morning fasted workout clients. I think Layne Norton also recommends it as well between meals. It's cheap enough, especially if you use RecoverPro (and tasty too), that I don't mind doing it. Helps keep my water intake high too!
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    Yeah, I thought his recommendation was just for using it intraworkout not throughout the time between the workout and first meal
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    I pretty much just have 1 more dose of 5g bcaa between that span, to kind of mimic Layne Norton's protocol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by imprezivr6 View Post
    Does anyone break the fast early in the day? I train at 6-630am, and after lifting/cardio I am usually home around 9ish. I am thinking about trying to have my large meal right then at 9-10am, and end the fast at 5-6 right after dinner.

    Then on non-training keep from 12-8.

    Thoughts?
    I've done this a few times - if so, just get back on schedule the next day, or adjust it for those times. If you're going to eat after training - which is probably the best time to eat, IMO - then that's ok. As Eric said, you can keep it the same, or adjust it - remember that you don't have to follow the EXACT protocol and can modify it to suit your needs, and still get great results.

    On another note, having had my nutrition skew even off my modification of this protocol, I have learnt without a doubt that this nutritional method is definitely the BEST one for me re EVERYthing from results to overall feeling and functionality! So, back on it with a vengeance!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie Chee Scott View Post
    I've done this a few times - if so, just get back on schedule the next day, or adjust it for those times. If you're going to eat after training - which is probably the best time to eat, IMO - then that's ok. As Eric said, you can keep it the same, or adjust it - remember that you don't have to follow the EXACT protocol and can modify it to suit your needs, and still get great results.

    On another note, having had my nutrition skew even off my modification of this protocol, I have learnt without a doubt that this nutritional method is definitely the BEST one for me re EVERYthing from results to overall feeling and functionality! So, back on it with a vengeance!

    ~Rosie~
    What you alluded to with PWO is why I am debating shifting my window a bit.

    Ideally I would just eat around 9:30/10am on my WO days(M/W/F), and back to noon on the opposing days. But to keep it somewhat consistent, I could end my feedings at 7pm regardless of the day so it would be a 15hr fast one day/17 the other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by imprezivr6 View Post
    What you alluded to with PWO is why I am debating shifting my window a bit.

    Ideally I would just eat around 9:30/10am on my WO days(M/W/F), and back to noon on the opposing days. But to keep it somewhat consistent, I could end my feedings at 7pm regardless of the day so it would be a 15hr fast one day/17 the other.
    i think that's fine.

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    The major reason I was saying to keep times the same was more about hunger control. The body adjusts to a feeding time and hunger tends to get lower during the fasting period and rise right before your normal feed time. If that time varies then its more likely that your hunger will start at the weekday earlier time on weekends making it a little harder to make it till 12. I know that if I blow out one morning and have a big meal, its much harder the next day to make it to 12. A small enough meal doesn't seem to make it so bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by imprezivr6 View Post
    I have been doing this "diet" for a long time, probably since last Nov/December, and in that time I have played around with a lot of different variables. I am just wondering if anyone breaks the fast early in the day, as that is one thing I haven't done to this point.

    I suppose I could break it early on both training/non training days and see how it goes.

    I was just thinking about trying to push my first meal a bit closer to post-wo to see if there was any noticeable benefits, or differences at all.



    I usually take 5g BCAA pre, 2 scoops of intrabolic durring, and then drink 5g leu/bcaa about half way between post-wo/first meal.

    I have actually been adding 10-15g of carbs to my intra drink as well, as of late.

    I am not thinking about breaking it early because it is hard to make it until noon, as I have fasted until 5:30 at one point. I am more interested in seeing if there is any benefit by doing it that way. I have no problem stopping my feeding at 6pm, as I go to bed by 9 anyway.
    I would go ahead and give it a shot you are already breaking your fast using 44-49 grams of worth of pre and intra stuff. Almost 4 times the 50 calorie threshold for ending the fast hormonally speaking. Will be an insulin spike taking you out of the fasting state. Actually with all that no reason to wait until 9 as you will not even make it back to a fasting state by then. So just start your feeding post workout and have a 10 or 12 hour feeding window on build days and try longer fast on off days. Like say extend it until 4:00 and have a snack and large dinner with the family.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    The major reason I was saying to keep times the same was more about hunger control. The body adjusts to a feeding time and hunger tends to get lower during the fasting period and rise right before your normal feed time. If that time varies then its more likely that your hunger will start at the weekday earlier time on weekends making it a little harder to make it till 12. I know that if I blow out one morning and have a big meal, its much harder the next day to make it to 12. A small enough meal doesn't seem to make it so bad.
    Yea, I don't have this issue at all. Right now I have my big meal at 12 on training days, and 530 on non training days.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I would go ahead and give it a shot you are already breaking your fast using 44-49 grams of worth of pre and intra stuff. Almost 4 times the 50 calorie threshold for ending the fast hormonally speaking. Will be an insulin spike taking you out of the fasting state. Actually with all that no reason to wait until 9 as you will not even make it back to a fasting state by then. So just start your feeding post workout and have a 10 or 12 hour feeding window on build days and try longer fast on off days. Like say extend it until 4:00 and have a snack and large dinner with the family.
    I honestly notice no difference between with the added aminos(ie. Technically breaking the fast) vs not in the terms of fat loss. Carbs was something I just added within the last week to see if I noticed any increase in performance.

    On his site he recommends 10g pre/10g post, that is already 80 cals, plus 10g half way between then and the first meal totaling 120 calories. Seems similar in terms of calories as what I am doing. 5g pre(20cal), 60 calories intra, and then 5g(20) half way through intra/first meal totaling 100 calories, and 140 if I add 10g carbs.

    If I do it, I will start with just doing the early fast break, then after a couple weeks of that, I may push back the non-training day fast-break like you suggest, as to not change too many variables at once.

    I don't need to really extend the window longer on training days as I typically eat my last meal at 7-8 anyway, and in bed by 9.
    Last edited by Frank Reynolds; 08-07-2011 at 11:53 AM.
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    instead of taking bcaa's is there anything else i can take, I don't take whey protein neither. how about a glass of milk here and there?
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    Quote Originally Posted by imprezivr6 View Post
    Yea, I don't have this issue at all. Right now I have my big meal at 12 on training days, and 530 on non training days.

    I honestly notice no difference between with the added aminos(ie. Technically breaking the fast) vs not in the terms of fat loss. Carbs was something I just added within the last week to see if I noticed any increase in performance.

    On his site he recommends 10g pre/10g post, that is already 80 cals, plus 10g half way between then and the first meal totaling 120 calories. Seems similar in terms of calories as what I am doing. 5g pre(20cal), 60 calories intra, and then 5g(20) half way through intra/first meal totaling 100 calories, and 140 if I add 10g carbs.

    If I do it, I will start with just doing the early fast break, then after a couple weeks of that, I may push back the non-training day fast-break like you suggest, as to not change too many variables at once.

    I don't need to really extend the window longer on training days as I typically eat my last meal at 7-8 anyway, and in bed by 9.
    Hey not knocking what you are doing in anyway, but your thought process is wrong there as far as it being the same effect spreading those calls out over 6-8 hours as opposed to you taking all of yours constantly from pre, intra, and post nutrition almost as if one longer but small feeding. 10 grams of Aminos is 40 cals, you take this one at one time later after the workout another 40 calls 2 hours later another not 180-200 all withing a 60-120 minute period. The difference is when and how you are ingesting them, the insulin response will be much higher with the way you are doing it. Not saying that won't work. I actually said go for it, but pointed out why you could easily make the jump to having a meal post workout. Also I am not a Lean Gains only person more general IF. You are doing more along the lines of the bodybuilding version of the warrior diet. I wasn't saying you were negating the effects of the diet at all. I was saying that you were not actually remaining in a fasting state hormonally and the quantity at once you took in would probably keep you out of fasted state until 9 anyway. Where you have time to return to it before eating at noon. All I was saying is I don't know that your body would be in fasting mode again by 9:00 AM for that second meal. As far as being more anabolic who know's could be. However for increased performance you should tray taking the 10-15 grams of carbs 30-60 minutes prior to your workout so the carbs are in your system to be used for the workout. I believe it is Ori H that made the having a meal post workout in the morning then "fasting" until the larger meal later which would work here fine. He allows for small "snacks" throughout the day just no carbs I think. I just got both books to read so I have to find out for sure but have heard it expressed many times.

    That is pretty cool you haven't noticed a difference in fat loss. I do think that most of the IF types out there vary and all are effective for fat loss. So I am not surprised by this at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fgarcia871 View Post
    instead of taking bcaa's is there anything else i can take, I don't take whey protein neither. how about a glass of milk here and there?


    A glass of milk wouldnt work to take during the fast, as it will break the fast and spike insulin. The idea is to go with no calories during the fast, and the reason we supplement with BCAAs during that time is to keep protein synthesis going during the fast with minimal to no caloric content.
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    A glass of hood calorie countdown skim might work, 0 fat, 8g protein, 3g carbs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickRock13 View Post
    A glass of milk wouldnt work to take during the fast, as it will break the fast and spike insulin. The idea is to go with no calories during the fast, and the reason we supplement with BCAAs during that time is to keep protein synthesis going during the fast with minimal to no caloric content.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    A glass of hood calorie countdown skim might work, 0 fat, 8g protein, 3g carbs.
    Nice suggestion is that the brand name? Countdown? Is this in health stores or can you find at grocery stores?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Hey not knocking what you are doing in anyway, but your thought process is wrong there as far as it being the same effect spreading those calls out over 6-8 hours as opposed to you taking all of yours constantly from pre, intra, and post nutrition almost as if one longer but small feeding. 10 grams of Aminos is 40 cals, you take this one at one time later after the workout another 40 calls 2 hours later another not 180-200 all withing a 60-120 minute period. The difference is when and how you are ingesting them, the insulin response will be much higher with the way you are doing it. Not saying that won't work. I actually said go for it, but pointed out why you could easily make the jump to having a meal post workout. Also I am not a Lean Gains only person more general IF. You are doing more along the lines of the bodybuilding version of the warrior diet. I wasn't saying you were negating the effects of the diet at all. I was saying that you were not actually remaining in a fasting state hormonally and the quantity at once you took in would probably keep you out of fasted state until 9 anyway. Where you have time to return to it before eating at noon. All I was saying is I don't know that your body would be in fasting mode again by 9:00 AM for that second meal. As far as being more anabolic who know's could be. However for increased performance you should tray taking the 10-15 grams of carbs 30-60 minutes prior to your workout so the carbs are in your system to be used for the workout. I believe it is Ori H that made the having a meal post workout in the morning then "fasting" until the larger meal later which would work here fine. He allows for small "snacks" throughout the day just no carbs I think. I just got both books to read so I have to find out for sure but have heard it expressed many times.
    I have tried his way for a long time, as well as NOTHING for a while. Until recently, I skipped the pre dose all together, and was just taking them intra, and 2 hrs before the fast-break. This is just what what I have currently settled on, after playing around extensively with IF.

    As it is now I drink my 5g(20 cal) at 6am, start training at 7am, am done lifting at 8(intra is gone by this point), and drink my last 5g bcaa by 10(2hrs after the last). 4hrs from first, to last feeding of bcaa.

    MB recomends 10 pre(6am) 10g post(8am) and 10g in between(10am). 4hrs.

    I could move my pre-dose to 5am, and then there is 2hrs between each feeding, however I truly believe all this stuff is negligible.

    I will figure out what I am going to do tomorrow I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by imprezivr6 View Post
    I have tried his way for a long time, as well as NOTHING for a while. Until recently, I skipped the pre dose all together, and was just taking them intra, and 2 hrs before the fast-break. This is just what what I have currently settled on, after playing around extensively with IF.

    As it is now I drink my 5g(20 cal) at 6am, start training at 7am, am done lifting at 8(intra is gone by this point), and drink my last 5g bcaa by 10(2hrs after the last). 4hrs from first, to last feeding of bcaa.

    MB recomends 10 pre(6am) 10g post(8am) and 10g in between(10am). 4hrs.

    I could move my pre-dose to 5am, and then there is 2hrs between each feeding, however I truly believe all this stuff is negligible.

    I will figure out what I am going to do tomorrow I guess.
    Yeah that was my point in the fact you could adjust all of it. I take 8g pre at 4:00 AM, 8g post about 6:00 AM and then none until I eat at noon. The peak of natural increase in protein synthesis from working out is 24 hours later. It starts increasing about 4 hours after the workout, which is where the recommendation from him to eat about 4 hours post workout. However like you said I think that extra couple hours without is negligible. Haven't noticed any difference from when being religious about taking in every other hour either.

    You were asking for suggestions to make this more anabolic unless I misread the post. The meal after the workout was just the most anabolic situation I could come up with, and was pointing out that with the pre and post aminos, 20 grams of aminos and whey that come in the 2 servings of intrabolic, and the added 10-15g in carbs included in your intra; I didn't think it would make much of a difference as far as fat loss to just roll with an anabolic meal right after the workout then fasting until Noon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    You were asking for suggestions to make this more anabolic unless I misread the post. The meal after the workout was just the most anabolic situation I could come up with, and was pointing out that with the pre and post aminos, 20 grams of aminos and whey that come in the 2 servings of intrabolic, and the added 10-15g in carbs included in your intra; I didn't think it would make much of a difference as far as fat loss to just roll with an anabolic meal right after the workout then fasting until Noon.
    Absolutely, and I am not disputing your suggestions, just explaining what I am doing a little more thoroughly. I will probably try something along the lines of your suggestion.

    For whatever reason, progress slowed for me when I was extending my fast until dinner(5) on non-training(burn days), so I am not sure I am going to go that route, but doing the post workout meal, and ending my feeding window at 7, then on the opposite day going to 12:30pm or so to break the fast, is probably where I will begin.

    I think if I do the post-wo meal, I will drop the pre-wo bcaa, sip on my intra(no carb), and then have my feeding PWO.
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    That's the full name

    http://www.hood.com/Products/prodListColl.aspx?id=851

    Its available in some regular grocery stores
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    Quote Originally Posted by imprezivr6 View Post
    Absolutely, and I am not disputing your suggestions, just explaining what I am doing a little more thoroughly. I will probably try something along the lines of your suggestion.

    For whatever reason, progress slowed for me when I was extending my fast until dinner(5) on non-training(burn days), so I am not sure I am going to go that route, but doing the post workout meal, and ending my feeding window at 7, then on the opposite day going to 12:30pm or so to break the fast, is probably where I will begin.

    I think if I do the post-wo meal, I will drop the pre-wo bcaa, sip on my intra(no carb), and then have my feeding PWO.
    Cool keep us update on the progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    That's the full name

    http://www.hood.com/Products/prodListColl.aspx?id=851

    Its available in some regular grocery stores
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    Has anyone tried LG on a nighttime workout schedule?

    Been watching this thread blow up on my mobile app and heard great things on superhumanradio

    Currently I'm working 8 hours till round 6pm and have a night class till 8pm...
    Right now it's fairly easy for me to so the traditional 6+ meals a day diet, but have been curious lately with the results I'm seeing online and through college aged friends of mine (they don't work so they fast till 3pm)

    Or...do I have to suck it up and train a 6am and do the feeding window till shortly after lunch and fast till next day? Ouch...
    Any suggestions are appreciated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbob21 View Post
    Has anyone tried LG on a nighttime workout schedule?

    Been watching this thread blow up on my mobile app and heard great things on superhumanradio

    Currently I'm working 8 hours till round 6pm and have a night class till 8pm...
    Right now it's fairly easy for me to so the traditional 6+ meals a day diet, but have been curious lately with the results I'm seeing online and through college aged friends of mine (they don't work so they fast till 3pm)

    Or...do I have to suck it up and train a 6am and do the feeding window till shortly after lunch and fast till next day? Ouch...
    Any suggestions are appreciated.
    Train when ever is convenient for you, and pick the 8 hour feeding window that is most convenient as well. Should not have any negative effects. I think most of us that workout in the morning and choose to fast until 12 do so so we can eat with our families in the evening. Otherwise I would break my fast at post workout and stop eating after 2PM, That and this way puts a bulk of the fast during sleep which is much easier than fasting while awake and everyone around you eating.
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    I'd like to see where you guys are getting your caloric values for BCAA's from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    I'd like to see where you guys are getting your caloric values for BCAA's from.
    I think they are just figuring 1g bcaa = 1g of protein = 4 calories.

    I personally never counted BCAA's towards my calories, as it just didn't matter. I guess in this case, and the case of being fasted/remaining in the fasted state it may matter.
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    I just bought some whey protein because i dont have bcaa's. My question is we need to stay fasted and only take amino acids and I read on the lean gains guide that whey protein is ok, it has 120 calories and that wont help the fast. so would it be better if I did, If I only use 1/4 of the scoop so approximatly it would only be 40 calories and 8g protein for every 1/3 of the scoop. so it will look like this

    9am- 1/3 protein powder 40 calories and 8g protein
    9am-10am training
    11am-1/3 protein powder 40 calories and 8g protein
    1pm-1/3 protein powder 40 calories and 8g protein
    3-4pm real post workout meal
    10pm last meal

    so in total the protein is one whole scoop but in 3 servings, would that be better for me?

    also for my workout days my calorie level is 4212 calories and im going to post my macronutrient breakdown, tell me if its good. i feel its a lot of carbs but then again this is a high carb day and I am a big guy at 270lbs

    Total calories: approximately 4200
    fat 85G
    carbs 590G
    protein 190G
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    I'd blow my guts out with 600g carbs. Well, unless it was all in one meal, pancakes at ihop :-)
    This space for rent

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I'd blow my guts out with 600g carbs. Well, unless it was all in one meal, pancakes at ihop :-)
    Yah it's hard, especially on lean gains...I do and 800 8 hour carb up for contest and it's murder near the end but my fats and proteins are low or there is just now way...
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Quote Originally Posted by imprezivr6 View Post
    I think they are just figuring 1g bcaa = 1g of protein = 4 calories.

    I personally never counted BCAA's towards my calories, as it just didn't matter. I guess in this case, and the case of being fasted/remaining in the fasted state it may matter.
    yeah, that's what it looks like, however, they are not equivalent. The calories from pure BCAA's are nominal at best, which is why most bcaa products don't list any calories on the label. BCAA's are already in the broken down and usable form.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Yah it's hard, especially on lean gains...I do and 800 8 hour carb up for contest and it's murder near the end but my fats and proteins are low or there is just now way...
    hah.. damn. I got 800 grams of carbs in before 11am on Saturday. I have been hitting around 2k grams on re-feeds lately.
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    Ok guys I have a quick question. Would changing to a 15/9 protocol instead of 16/8 be that big of a deal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by imprezivr6 View Post
    hah.. damn. I got 800 grams of carbs in before 11am on Saturday. I have been hitting around 2k grams on re-feeds lately.
    Yah I did that last year had to eat a lot of junk to get it in...
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    Name:  IMG_8086.jpg
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    Just a few update pics lots more on my log....
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post
    Ok guys I have a quick question. Would changing to a 15/9 protocol instead of 16/8 be that big of a deal?
    I think if you've been doing it a while, it probably shouldn't make a huge difference. Once your insulin sensitivity is maximized, a little bit less fast window shouldn't be a big deal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL

    I think if you've been doing it a while, it probably shouldn't make a huge difference. Once your insulin sensitivity is maximized, a little bit less fast window shouldn't be a big deal.
    Thanks Easy.
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    Yesterday I decided to try and follow the macros for lean gains finally. was odd to jam that much in carbs down, but kinda nice.
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas
    Ok guys I have a quick question. Would changing to a 15/9 protocol instead of 16/8 be that big of a deal?
    I'm pretty sure that the LG guide recommends only a 14/10 for women so I would assume that 15/9 should render positive results. IMO.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/252210-greens-climb-top.html#post4548443
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL
    Yesterday I decided to try and follow the macros for lean gains finally. was odd to jam that much in carbs down, but kinda nice.
    I finally dialed down the carbs. I was trying to figure out why I was so puffy. I guess the 50% carbs on lift days was a bit much. I agree though...really nice to jam those carbs in. After only two days of restricting the carbs I started leaning out again. It's pretty crazy how fast my body reacts to carbohydrates.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/252210-greens-climb-top.html#post4548443
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    great thread here.lean gains looks really effective from what I've seen and read from members here
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver
    <img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42 302"/><img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42 303"/><img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42 304"/>

    Just a few update pics lots more on my log....
    Looking big and lean DW! Nice work!!
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