The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    See if you can keep fasting until 2PM so that it's 16hrs of fasting. A more regular cadence people seem to fall into is 12PM-8PM for feeding, the rest is fasting. It works best if you eat something with staying power at 8PM (protein and fat, preferably casein, something like XF UP2.0 for example with whole food/fiber).

    Calories are hard to say not knowing what your resting metabolic rate is and how much exercise you do. If you're goal is cutting, you can be lower on your off/cardio days by 20% below maintenance. Workout days shoot for 20% over, but again cutting you might want to drop that or keep it at maintenance.

    Personal preference, I'd increase protein and reduce carbs. I drop weight a lot better when I restrict carbs. Also, protein will help you feel fuller, longer.

    As you keep doing it, adjust calories until you're getting the desired results. At 16-17% bf you should be able to keep calories around maintenance or below maintenance 20-30% IMO.
    I would agree with pretty much everything Milas said here. The 20%/20% rule is a good guideline, but you can adjust from there as you need to.
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  2. I agree with them as well. At 16-17% you are either going to want to do a cut, or a recomp. YOu would probably do well on a recomp unless just in a big hurry. YOu don't have that much to lose to be looking pretty good so I would choose a recomp style if I were you. Like I said it will be better for you unless you actually have a need to get lean faster.

    Here is what I would do if you gain easily then start with a maintenance around 12-13 x bw, if pretty much straight down the line meaning you can add fat and drop fat very easily then try 13-14 x BW, and if you have a hard time gaining weight at all try 15xBW for a maintenance number then do the -20% / +20% based off of that number. I have a feeling you will probably fall in the 13-14 range. SO at what 216 that would put your maintenance between 2808 -3024 for 2808 it would be 2247 & 3369 and for 3024 you get 2419 & 3629, so pick a starting range going off what you already know about yourrself and go from there. If you want to cut a little more quickly you can just lower the cals on the low calorie day by 10%.
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  3. When 'on' do you suggest intaking more protein? currently I have a client stacking AH + AL (Andro hard and Andro lean). I have his carbs at around .25g per lb, and protein at 1.5g/lb, fats hover around .25-.5g/lb depending on the meats he uses. But always leaner cuts.

    My other concern is the carbs. Should I have him ingest it b4 the workout? He pushes hard so he can get through the workout usually w/o the carbs.
    FYI, following the UD2.
    He said he likes the UD2, but this is really just the first week to him so it could be the honey moon phase...

    Client currently 190lbs 13%

  4. Quote Originally Posted by kyoryoko View Post
    When 'on' do you suggest intaking more protein? currently I have a client stacking AH + AL (Andro hard and Andro lean). I have his carbs at around .25g per lb, and protein at 1.5g/lb, fats hover around .25-.5g/lb depending on the meats he uses. But always leaner cuts.

    My other concern is the carbs. Should I have him ingest it b4 the workout? He pushes hard so he can get through the workout usually w/o the carbs.
    FYI, following the UD2. Client currently 190lbs 13%
    PRO @ 1.5/lb on this sort of diet is close to ideal. 2g/lb of protein is overkill -- 2g/kg is plenty for purposes of protein synthesis, but adding in the extra protein for satiety, fat loss, and lean tissue preservation is fine.

    I see you only have him at 50g CHO? On workout days that seems low regarding glycogen resynthesis, especially after intense sessions. I'm not familiar with UD2, but if it is deliberately designed to deplete glycogen for fat loss, then disregard the above as those protocols would oppose one another.

    There may be advantages to training fasted and LG ultimately insists on it. I can link you some studies regarding fasted vs. non-fasted and pre-workout CHO vs. no pre-workout CHO if you want, but I would suggest Leucine/BCAAs beforehand if possible (~10 grams) before anything else as there are studies documenting the benefit of dosing BCAA pre-workout.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    See if you can keep fasting until 2PM so that it's 16hrs of fasting. A more regular cadence people seem to fall into is 12PM-8PM for feeding, the rest is fasting. It works best if you eat something with staying power at 8PM (protein and fat, preferably casein, something like XF UP2.0 for example with whole food/fiber).

    Calories are hard to say not knowing what your resting metabolic rate is and how much exercise you do. If you're goal is cutting, you can be lower on your off/cardio days by 20% below maintenance. Workout days shoot for 20% over, but again cutting you might want to drop that or keep it at maintenance.

    Personal preference, I'd increase protein and reduce carbs. I drop weight a lot better when I restrict carbs. Also, protein will help you feel fuller, longer.

    As you keep doing it, adjust calories until you're getting the desired results. At 16-17% bf you should be able to keep calories around maintenance or below maintenance 20-30% IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    I am still way new at this, but based on what I have been reading and what I see others doing with e****lent results, this looks spot on to me, Kleen seems to be our resident Lean Gains & Intermiten Fasting Guru, in for what he has to say!
    Quote Originally Posted by RickRock13 View Post
    I would agree with pretty much everything Milas said here. The 20%/20% rule is a good guideline, but you can adjust from there as you need to.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I agree with them as well. At 16-17% you are either going to want to do a cut, or a recomp. YOu would probably do well on a recomp unless just in a big hurry. YOu don't have that much to lose to be looking pretty good so I would choose a recomp style if I were you. Like I said it will be better for you unless you actually have a need to get lean faster.

    Here is what I would do if you gain easily then start with a maintenance around 12-13 x bw, if pretty much straight down the line meaning you can add fat and drop fat very easily then try 13-14 x BW, and if you have a hard time gaining weight at all try 15xBW for a maintenance number then do the -20% / +20% based off of that number. I have a feeling you will probably fall in the 13-14 range. SO at what 216 that would put your maintenance between 2808 -3024 for 2808 it would be 2247 & 3369 and for 3024 you get 2419 & 3629, so pick a starting range going off what you already know about yourrself and go from there. If you want to cut a little more quickly you can just lower the cals on the low calorie day by 10%.
    Thanks for all the responses guys! Ok so I dropped my carbs a bit at the end of the day ending at 2424 calories, 209g carbs, 245g protein, and 57g fat. If im understand this correctly MrKleen you are saying I should take my weight (205 lbs) and multiple. So I will just assume I sway with weight easy enough so....

    205 x 13 = 2665
    205 x 14 = 2870

    2665 (+/- 20%) = 2132 - 3198
    2870 (+/- 20%) = 2296 - 3444

    At this point my ultimate goal is more cutting than recomp. I would like to be as lean as possible while retaining muscle in four weeks when my gf and I go on a short camping trip with a bunch of friends. After that if I am lean as I am comfortable with I will switch to recomp or ever lean gain bulk.

    Im not sure how low I want to drop my carbs. In all honest I have always been the "I know carbs have to be low to get lean" guy and everytime I try to make the adjustment to that kind of diet (CKD) I fail miserably. I have been keeping my carbs moderate 150-200 for the last two weeks and have felt very positive about workouts and such and even the other day I felt leaner than I have in awhile.

    So if I am cutting would you suggest keeping my calories around maintenance on workout days and dropping down to say 2100-2000 on non workout/cardio days?


    Ps.... Ill layout what todays food was quick:

    Fast Break:
    Apple
    Multigrain tortilla
    4 oz chicken
    1/2 cup brown rice
    1/4 cup black beans
    4 oz ***e 0% fat greek yogurt
    1 Scoop Dymatize protein

    2nd meal:
    2 oz summer sausage
    1 can (4 oz) Albacore tuna
    1 Whole wheat sub roll
    1 slick pepperjack cheese
    1 Scoop Dymatize protein

    Last meal: (Post workout)
    4 oz chicken breast
    1 cup vegetable stir fry
    1/2 cup cottage cheese
    1/2 cup oats
    1 1/2 cup skim milk
    24 whole almonds
    2 Scoops Dymatize protein

    Phew that seemed like a lot and I literally had to force that last bit of food down... actually I wasnt even hungry when my girlfriend told me she made dinner... poor her going out of her way to be nice for me and I wasnt even wanting to eat!

  6. Natty PB and peanuts, they add plenty of calories...
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    PRO @ 1.5/lb on this sort of diet is close to ideal. 2g/lb of protein is overkill -- 2g/kg is plenty for purposes of protein synthesis, but adding in the extra protein for satiety, fat loss, and lean tissue preservation is fine.

    I see you only have him at 50g CHO? On workout days that seems low regarding glycogen resynthesis, especially after intense sessions. I'm not familiar with UD2, but if it is deliberately designed to deplete glycogen for fat loss, then disregard the above as those protocols would oppose one another.

    There may be advantages to training fasted and LG ultimately insists on it. I can link you some studies regarding fasted vs. non-fasted and pre-workout CHO vs. no pre-workout CHO if you want, but I would suggest Leucine/BCAAs beforehand if possible (~10 grams) before anything else as there are studies documenting the benefit of dosing BCAA pre-workout.
    Sounds good, I'll try have him do that. 10g BCAAs from like Xtends (plus some extra)or Modern BCAA would be best I'd think. If he can make it through the next couple days and complete the week I will see if I should make some changes to the protein intake. He's using a lot of shakes though to cram it in the 8hrs. I usually don't like liquid food but to get 300-380g protein in 8hrs I may have to let it go for now. lol.

    Thanks again!!

  8. Yeah I usually have a couple scoops of Natty PB in my shake (the one i had at the end of the day along with my chicken stir fry) but I was already stuffed and didnt know how much more I could take haha

    So given the fact im purely trying to cut. Should I still try to be over maintenance on my lifting days?

  9. You can probably just do maintenance on working days and be cool if you're just cutting. If you start losing strength consistently, increase calories.
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  10. Thanks Milas! Ill keep pressing forward on this. I was pretty surprised on both counts that i made it easily to 1230 with no food in me and also that I felt pretty damn strong tonight when I lifting chest, bis, and legs... but I was sweatin like a biiiiiitttttccccchhhhh

    If Kleen, Red Dog, Scotty, or RickRock have any other suggestions please chime in!

    PS - I have had a really hard time sticking to a diet and this is probably the closest ive ever been to being around maintenance calories with for the most part wholesome food. So before I go changing shxt drastically I definitely want to see how this affects me and establish routine and discipline and then carry on from there. I definitely consider all criticism and suggestions and appreciate the help!
    •   
       


  11. Add some gh, GHRP, and GHRH during your fast
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  12. Quote Originally Posted by FlawedGrunt View Post
    Im not sure how low I want to drop my carbs. In all honest I have always been the "I know carbs have to be low to get lean" guy and everytime I try to make the adjustment to that kind of diet (CKD) I fail miserably. I have been keeping my carbs moderate 150-200 for the last two weeks and have felt very positive about workouts and such and even the other day I felt leaner than I have in awhile.

    So if I am cutting would you suggest keeping my calories around maintenance on workout days and dropping down to say 2100-2000 on non workout/cardio days?
    Pretty solid plan man! If you're making progress with moderate CHO then go ahead and keep them in. You can definitely push the CHO in the post-workout window on weight training days -- on the cardio/rest days, you could still enjoy a significant amount especially if you position them after your cardio is completed.

    And with protein as plentiful as you have it I think you would be fine in the 2100 calorie range on cardio days -- I know some of the guys on here occasionally drop the calories super low on those days and are seeing solid results!

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Pretty solid plan man! If you're making progress with moderate CHO then go ahead and keep them in. You can definitely push the CHO in the post-workout window on weight training days -- on the cardio/rest days, you could still enjoy a significant amount especially if you position them after your cardio is completed.

    And with protein as plentiful as you have it I think you would be fine in the 2100 calorie range on cardio days -- I know some of the guys on here occasionally drop the calories super low on those days and are seeing solid results!
    Awesome. Sounds like a plan. Today is a cardio day looking like 2171 Cals, 172g carbs, 231g protein, and 63g fat. So I guess I am gonna roll with this and see how it pans out! Ill be back for updates! May have to just start a damn log! haha

  14. has anyone thought about using IF with UD 2.0?

    though, it won't be 'leangains', it might enhance UD 2.0, which by itself is already an awesome diet/workout routine.
    For me, the action IS the juice.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by FlawedGrunt View Post
    Thanks for all the responses guys! Ok so I dropped my carbs a bit at the end of the day ending at 2424 calories, 209g carbs, 245g protein, and 57g fat. If im understand this correctly MrKleen you are saying I should take my weight (205 lbs) and multiple. So I will just assume I sway with weight easy enough so....

    205 x 13 = 2665
    205 x 14 = 2870

    2665 (+/- 20%) = 2132 - 3198
    2870 (+/- 20%) = 2296 - 3444

    At this point my ultimate goal is more cutting than recomp. I would like to be as lean as possible while retaining muscle in four weeks when my gf and I go on a short camping trip with a bunch of friends. After that if I am lean as I am comfortable with I will switch to recomp or ever lean gain bulk.

    Im not sure how low I want to drop my carbs. In all honest I have always been the "I know carbs have to be low to get lean" guy and everytime I try to make the adjustment to that kind of diet (CKD) I fail miserably. I have been keeping my carbs moderate 150-200 for the last two weeks and have felt very positive about workouts and such and even the other day I felt leaner than I have in awhile.

    So if I am cutting would you suggest keeping my calories around maintenance on workout days and dropping down to say 2100-2000 on non workout/cardio days?

    The 13 and fourteen were two seperate calculations not meant to be used as part of a total formula. Either figure out the -20%/+20% off of the 13, or the 14. However for a cut you could either try to figure out new percentages like maybe -30 to 40% on the Burn day, or simply multiply body weight by 12 and use those as your numbers instead. I tend to use about a 12 for my cutting in general, if I were to average my days out for the week I get in about 2400 cals per day. Which is pretty much on par with what I would be eating daily if doing a traditional cut.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedGrunt View Post
    Thanks Milas! Ill keep pressing forward on this. I was pretty surprised on both counts that i made it easily to 1230 with no food in me and also that I felt pretty damn strong tonight when I lifting chest, bis, and legs... but I was sweatin like a biiiiiitttttccccchhhhh

    If Kleen, Red Dog, Scotty, or RickRock have any other suggestions please chime in!

    PS - I have had a really hard time sticking to a diet and this is probably the closest ive ever been to being around maintenance calories with for the most part wholesome food. So before I go changing shxt drastically I definitely want to see how this affects me and establish routine and discipline and then carry on from there. I definitely consider all criticism and suggestions and appreciate the help!
    This diet will make thing easier to stick to. However once you get used to eating big meals it becomes easy to go over your caloric intake so keep an eye on this if you are not counting every calorie you need to be aware that it will be easier and easier to consume more and more at one meal. Too keep cals where they need to be you have to keep your eye on it even with all the freedoms this diet can allow. If you are enjoying around 200 then keep having 200-250 on workout days and say around 100-150 on non workout days or something.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Use Kleen10 for a 10% discount
    www.OrbitSupplements.com

  16. I have heard people using IF methods during first 3 days of UD2 7 day cycle, dunno about +kcal/maintance days, but during -kcal days it sounds like good idea to me atleast..

    So personally i have been bulking little more than 5 weeks with IF style most of time (like 5days IF/2days off) pretty clean most of time. So during this 5 week my weight jumped 3kg upwards, my deadlift RM1 jumped 20kg (170kg -> 190kg, been missing 200kg for 2 weeks now while i rep 180kg easily for 4), squat from 6x130 to 4x140 (And i am doing 2x6 130kg before that set atm when before 6x130kg was my "best set) and decline bench from 6x80kg to 6x90kg (easy, but due to my shoulder injury i dont dare to risk anything anymore, atleast benching..).

    So anyways here is side before (No bloat):

    And side after little bloat going on..

    So i guess im going to keep doing what i have been or.. ?

    Ps. If you got any tips for stubborn arms i would gladly hear em, my arms have been about 38cm like for year now, even my curl and tri ext strenght have gone up a lot..

  17. Man you look great to me. Looks almost more like a recomp than a bulk. You are definitely leaner in the second pics. As far as arms some peoples arms need more recovery than others. If you have been pounding on them for a year and they haven't been growing too much take about 2 months where you don't train them too much and see if there is any difference. A lot of people will add size to their arms just from doing all the compound movements. Some poeple addingin extra arm work results in overtraining the arms. So they don't really grow. Try a few months of just pressing and pulling movements, and maybe just 1 hard work set for biceps and triceps. Like say do your back all the way through then hit one really hard set of Olympic Bar curls and be done then do the same for triceps, do shoulders and bench then just do one hard set of dips, close grip bench or an overhead variety of triceps extension.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Use Kleen10 for a 10% discount
    www.OrbitSupplements.com

  18. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Man you look great to me. Looks almost more like a recomp than a bulk. You are definitely leaner in the second pics. As far as arms some peoples arms need more recovery than others. If you have been pounding on them for a year and they haven't been growing too much take about 2 months where you don't train them too much and see if there is any difference. A lot of people will add size to their arms just from doing all the compound movements. Some poeple addingin extra arm work results in overtraining the arms. So they don't really grow. Try a few months of just pressing and pulling movements, and maybe just 1 hard work set for biceps and triceps. Like say do your back all the way through then hit one really hard set of Olympic Bar curls and be done then do the same for triceps, do shoulders and bench then just do one hard set of dips, close grip bench or an overhead variety of triceps extension.
    Listen to the Man, that some Kleen advice there! I too have noticed that if I do too much on my arm days they don't grow as much as when I do just a few sets to kill them after training a different muscle in which they are highly used. Like triceps after chest and biceps after back! Another thing I will do to shake things up is do a push and a pull in one day... One day do Chest & Biceps the 2-3 days later do Back & Triceps. Whenever I change up my routine like that I try to stick with it for 6-8wks and then switch again. In addition to always trying to do different exercises for the muscles, it is another way to keep the body in constant shock!
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  19. Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar

    i've decided to give up on leangains for right now. What i've noticed is although bodycomp changes were coming along nicely, my mental function between workout time (7am) and fast break (1pm) sucked. My work has been extra heavy and I have some rough deadlines to meet and my brain just isn't working up to snuff during that extended morning fast. I'll go back to IF once this current rash of deadlines passes though, but for now I can't afford to only get 2-3 hours of real work accomplished during that first 5 hours of the work day before I eat.

    Sucks really
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    i've decided to give up on leangains for right now. What i've noticed is although bodycomp changes were coming along nicely, my mental function between workout time (7am) and fast break (1pm) sucked. My work has been extra heavy and I have some rough deadlines to meet and my brain just isn't working up to snuff during that extended morning fast. I'll go back to IF once this current rash of deadlines passes though, but for now I can't afford to only get 2-3 hours of real work accomplished during that first 5 hours of the work day before I eat.

    Sucks really
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  21. Thanks for tips guys!

    So i have been thinking about switching from my 4 days week (Legs+DL/Chest+Tri/Back+Bi's/Shoulders) to 3 days a week program, which would be best style in your opinion considering that my goal is still gaining muscle or atleast keeping it while dropping bf%.

    So the splits i been considering are:

    Pull-Push-Legs

    Or

    Week 1: Upper A - Lower A - Upper B
    Week 2: Lower B - Upper A - Lower A
    And so on..

    Or

    Full body workout 3 times a week with different exercises for example monday would be squat day, wednesday leg extension and curls and friday deadlift and leg press considering legs.

  22. How would one go about incorperating HIIT into the leangains? I usually break my fast at 3 and have school from 8 30 to 1

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Folkmetalhead View Post
    Thanks for tips guys!

    So i have been thinking about switching from my 4 days week (Legs+DL/Chest+Tri/Back+Bi's/Shoulders) to 3 days a week program, which would be best style in your opinion considering that my goal is still gaining muscle or atleast keeping it while dropping bf%.

    So the splits i been considering are:

    Pull-Push-Legs

    Or

    Week 1: Upper A - Lower A - Upper B
    Week 2: Lower B - Upper A - Lower A
    And so on..

    Or

    Full body workout 3 times a week with different exercises for example monday would be squat day, wednesday leg extension and curls and friday deadlift and leg press considering legs.
    I used 3 full body workouts a week when I started lean gains and I was dropping fat like a bad habit. Its probably more preference than anything, but I would prefer full body workouts when mostly cutting and go with push/pull/legs or something similar when recomping
    Recoverbro Elite
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  24. Quote Originally Posted by jhern216 View Post
    How would one go about incorperating HIIT into the leangains? I usually break my fast at 3 and have school from 8 30 to 1
    I would simply treat it as a training session; you could give HIIT it's own day if you preferred or you could simply put it at the tail-end of a weight training session. You would break the fast immediately afterwards (if possible) just like you would on any other training day!

  25. Second day of LG...going great so far. The fast is no where near as hard as I thought it would be. Here was my Post-WO meal today

    Half of a Turkey Meatloaf with Whole Wheat Bread Crumbs - 738 Calories 29 Fat 51 Carbs 75 Protein
    Ketchup 30 Calories 0 Fat 8 Carbs 0 Protein
    132g Fat Free Chocolate Ice Cream - 180 Calories 0 Fat 44 Carbs 6 Protein
    2 Cup Skim Milk - 160 Calories 0 Fat 24 Carbs 16 Protein
    80g 100% Whey Muscle Milk - 320 Calories 5 Fat 7 Carbs 62 Protein

    Totals - 1428 Calories 34 Fat 134 Carb 159 Protein

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    I would simply treat it as a training session; you could give HIIT it's own day if you preferred or you could simply put it at the tail-end of a weight training session. You would break the fast immediately afterwards (if possible) just like you would on any other training day!
    So would the macros be the same as a regular weight training day...I'm going for cut while retaining as much muscle as possible

  27. Quote Originally Posted by jhern216 View Post
    So would the macros be the same as a regular weight training day...I'm going for cut while retaining as much muscle as possible
    I usually change my macros a little on weight days vs cardio or rest days. Obviously the Cal's are much lower on the cardio days/rest days but I also use a much smaller percentage of carbs. For me I have been taking in less than 50g on those days while taking in around 250g on weight days. Those are just numbers though, and will work for you may be a lot different.
    Recoverbro Elite
    "This is what we've been working on"

  28. Quote Originally Posted by T50 View Post
    Second day of LG...going great so far. The fast is no where near as hard as I thought it would be. Here was my Post-WO meal today

    Half of a Turkey Meatloaf with Whole Wheat Bread Crumbs - 738 Calories 29 Fat 51 Carbs 75 Protein
    Ketchup 30 Calories 0 Fat 8 Carbs 0 Protein
    132g Fat Free Chocolate Ice Cream - 180 Calories 0 Fat 44 Carbs 6 Protein
    2 Cup Skim Milk - 160 Calories 0 Fat 24 Carbs 16 Protein
    80g 100% Whey Muscle Milk - 320 Calories 5 Fat 7 Carbs 62 Protein

    Totals - 1428 Calories 34 Fat 134 Carb 159 Protein
    Good fast breaker there!!
    Recoverbro Elite
    "This is what we've been working on"

  29. Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Add some gh, GHRP, and GHRH during your fast
    I was very dissapointed with GHRP/GHRH combo. Not worth all the sub-q pinning every day when I got the same results from doing nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by RickRock13 View Post
    I usually change my macros a little on weight days vs cardio or rest days. Obviously the Cal's are much lower on the cardio days/rest days but I also use a much smaller percentage of carbs. For me I have been taking in less than 50g on those days while taking in around 250g on weight days. Those are just numbers though, and will work for you may be a lot different.
    Yep, that's what Marcus the LG creator recommends, as for as reducing carb intake on rest days.
    Serious Nutrition Solutions rep

  30. Alright so for cardio rest days... those of you who prefer low Carb. Can you give me an idea what your macros look like? Do you keep your carbs near your cardio or keep them spaced out
  

  
 

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