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The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

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    Ive been doing morning cardio too around 0900hrs. Should I just stay on the fast through this, or get some BCAAs pre cardio as well?

    4wk Androhard/Androlean 4wkPCT log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/252210-greens-climb-top.html#post4548443

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    Ive been doing am cardio around 0900 hrs. Should I maintain my fast through this or supplement with BCAAs pre cardio as well?

    4wk Androhard/Androlean 4wkPCT log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/252210-greens-climb-top.html#post4548443
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurningGreen View Post
    Ive been doing am cardio around 0900 hrs. Should I maintain my fast through this or supplement with BCAAs pre cardio as well?

    4wk Androhard/Androlean 4wkPCT log
    From what I read on his site 10g pre fasted cardio is a must.
    :blindfold:
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    Quote Originally Posted by monstermash View Post
    From what I read on his site 10g pre fasted cardio is a must.
    Yah I get about 15 grams in myself...
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    don't see any advantages before cardio.

    If it is before weight lifting we can discuss, before cardio (low intensity) the only thing that i would add would be some stims if needed, nothing more that can be caloric.

    And please at leat cardio at 9 then fast break at 13, looks good! 4 hours burning some fat
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    I have only read the basics about LG but couldn't find anywhere if the use of carbs intra workout is recommended. I would normally drink an isotonic/carb drink with about 20gms of sugars in it mixed with 10g of bcaa's. Would this be recommended?
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    This is for powerlifting training not cardio btw
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    I noticed on the LG website Martin says, "Meal frequency during the feeding phase is irrelevant. However, most people, including me, prefer three meals."

    I tend to get kind of sick when I eat so much all at once, Ive always been more of a grazer.

    I was wondering if anyone else has been using more frequent smaller meals in their feeding window and what kind of results youve been getting. I just started eating 5-6 smaller meals on my non training days and then on my training days eating one big meal (around 45% daily cals) post workout and 3-4 smaller meals to fill in the rest of my feeding window.

    So, if im not alone in doing this please post up your experiences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soontobbeast View Post
    on burn days its actually tough for me to break down and eat lol. i wanna keep fasting.
    What are the "burn" days?
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    Quote Originally Posted by N.Woods Giant View Post
    I noticed on the LG website Martin says, "Meal frequency during the feeding phase is irrelevant. However, most people, including me, prefer three meals."

    I tend to get kind of sick when I eat so much all at once, Ive always been more of a grazer.

    I was wondering if anyone else has been using more frequent smaller meals in their feeding window and what kind of results youve been getting. I just started eating 5-6 smaller meals on my non training days and then on my training days eating one big meal (around 45% daily cals) post workout and 3-4 smaller meals to fill in the rest of my feeding window.

    So, if im not alone in doing this please post up your experiences.
    I typically eat immediately post-workout and then every 2 hours or so until I eventually go to sleep. What you pointed out is actually accurate on two levels -- meal frequency is irrelevant with a static caloric intake (3 meals vs 6 meals) whether you're talking specifically within the LG 8-hour feeding window or virtually any other meal plan.

    But for LG, the total calories consumed in the window is what's important -- although the first meal should probably still be the largest comparatively.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SemiBulimic View Post
    I have only read the basics about LG but couldn't find anywhere if the use of carbs intra workout is recommended. I would normally drink an isotonic/carb drink with about 20gms of sugars in it mixed with 10g of bcaa's. Would this be recommended?
    Not for LG -- keep the BCAAs but hold the CHO for post-workout. There are some studies linked from the LG website discussing the impact of consuming a CHO solution beforehand as opposed to training in the fasted state.

    Quote Originally Posted by RJW719 View Post
    What are the "burn" days?
    Judging from their discussion, I believe he means non-training days where fat loss is the primary focus and total calories are under maintenance.
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    Yeah, I have just been calling them burn days it is much easier. That and on burn days a lot of us choose to extend the fast and have two bigger meals which is more in line with other IF approaches but not a true Lean Gains approach. That and saying workout day and not workout day became cumbersome. A Burn and Build day just seems easier to explain for me.

    Sik, there is actually a benefit to having 10-20 grams of protein before any cardio it actually causes more fat to be burned. I think I posted that study in this thread somewhere. If not look in The Adventures of JudoJosh thread I am almost certain it is in there. Unfortunately I can not remember via what avenue it increases the amount of fat burned but the study reflected that it did. If it is only with whole protein I would assume it probably had to do with thermic effect of protein but may simply be due to increased protein synthesis burning more calories.
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    I take my BCAAs regardless of it being workout days or cardio. I feel its beneficial to have them before fasted cardio
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Yeah, I have just been calling them burn days it is much easier. That and on burn days a lot of us choose to extend the fast and have two bigger meals which is more in line with other IF approaches but not a true Lean Gains approach. That and saying workout day and not workout day became cumbersome. A Burn and Build day just seems easier to explain for me.

    Sik, there is actually a benefit to having 10-20 grams of protein before any cardio it actually causes more fat to be burned. I think I posted that study in this thread somewhere. If not look in The Adventures of JudoJosh thread I am almost certain it is in there. Unfortunately I can not remember via what avenue it increases the amount of fat burned but the study reflected that it did. If it is only with whole protein I would assume it probably had to do with thermic effect of protein but may simply be due to increased protein synthesis burning more calories.

    Could be something like the short insulin increase with the uptake of amino acids to muscle cells causing and anti catabolism response in training coupled with the glucogon rise post insulin release? I am not sure, but I think if it did show some benefit it would be through these channels. Or I could be completely wrong....
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    Gentlemen, I am an official fan of LG. Finished day one with a sheet ton of energy, also felt just as strong during my lift, and not to mention an overall feeling of being light with awesome vascularity as well...I could go on all night on how good I felt today. The cherry on top was eating a 1,357 cal. meal!

    4wk Androhard/Androlean 4wkPCT log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/252210-greens-climb-top.html#post4548443
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurningGreen View Post
    Gentlemen, I am an official fan of LG. Finished day one with a sheet ton of energy, also felt just as strong during my lift, and not to mention an overall feeling of being light with awesome vascularity as well...I could go on all night on how good I felt today. The cherry on top was eating a 1,357 cal. meal!

    4wk Androhard/Androlean 4wkPCT log
    Welcome to the bright side of calorie restriction.
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    I know this was addressed earlier somewhere in the thread but am I to take my 20% deficit/increase from Basal Metabolic Rate, or Total Daily Energy Expenditure? I would go back and search, but this thread is HUGE
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/252210-greens-climb-top.html#post4548443
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurningGreen View Post
    I know this was addressed earlier somewhere in the thread but am I to take my 20% deficit/increase from Basal Metabolic Rate, or Total Daily Energy Expenditure? I would go back and search, but this thread is HUGE
    Based on TDEE (3,428 cal.) I will consume 4,113 cal. on workout days, and 2,742 cal. on rest days. This is a 686 cal. swing both ways (20%). I will eat 50% carbs, 30% protein, 20% fat on workout days and 50% protein, 30% fat, 20% carbs on rest days.

    BMR is 2,211

    Please correct me if I am wrong

    4wk Androhard/Androlean 4wkPCT log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/252210-greens-climb-top.html#post4548443
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    I hate that I'm blowing this thread up, but this is what I have arrived at. Please critique so I can make necessary alterations.

    TurningGreen Lean Gains Protocol

    BMR -2,116cal.
    TDEE -3428cal.
    20% increase/deficit -685cal.

    Workout Days -4,113cal
    50%carb, 30%protein, 20%fat
    Meal 1 20% total cal. -822cal
    Meal 2 60% total cal. -2,647cal
    Meal 3 20% total cal. -822cal

    Rest Days -2,742cal
    50%protein, 30%fat, 20%carb
    Meal 1 20% total cal. -548cal
    Meal 2 60% total cal. -1,645cal
    Meal 3 20% total cal. -548cal
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/252210-greens-climb-top.html#post4548443
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurningGreen View Post
    I hate that I'm blowing this thread up, but this is what I have arrived at. Please critique so I can make necessary alterations.

    TurningGreen Lean Gains Protocol

    BMR -2,116cal.
    TDEE -3428cal.
    20% increase/deficit -685cal.

    Workout Days -4,113cal
    50%carb, 30%protein, 20%fat
    Meal 1 20% total cal. -822cal
    Meal 2 60% total cal. -2,647cal
    Meal 3 20% total cal. -822cal

    Rest Days -2,742cal
    50%protein, 30%fat, 20%carb
    Meal 1 20% total cal. -548cal
    Meal 2 60% total cal. -1,645cal
    Meal 3 20% total cal. -548cal
    I could be wrong but I believe the 50/30/20 on workout days is supposed to be P/C/F not C/P/F.
    :blindfold:
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurningGreen View Post
    I hate that I'm blowing this thread up, but this is what I have arrived at. Please critique so I can make necessary alterations.

    TurningGreen Lean Gains Protocol

    BMR -2,116cal.
    TDEE -3428cal.
    20% increase/deficit -685cal.

    Workout Days -4,113cal
    50%carb, 30%protein, 20%fat
    Meal 1 20% total cal. -822cal
    Meal 2 60% total cal. -2,647cal
    Meal 3 20% total cal. -822cal

    Rest Days -2,742cal
    50%protein, 30%fat, 20%carb
    Meal 1 20% total cal. -548cal
    Meal 2 60% total cal. -1,645cal
    Meal 3 20% total cal. -548cal
    I'm not sure if your goal is cut,recomp, or lean gain (with those numbers lean gain I assume) but even trying to add in LBM with little to no fat gain those numbers seem too high. I'm not sure of your weight but my numbers are at around 3k/1800 for workout days/rest days and I'm recomping. Seems to work good there as my weight has been anywhere from 170-173 for a few weeks and I continue to lean out and add in LBM.

    I'd be curious on others input but my guess is your Cal's are too high
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickRock13 View Post
    I'm not sure if your goal is cut,recomp, or lean gain (with those numbers lean gain I assume) but even trying to add in LBM with little to no fat gain those numbers seem too high. I'm not sure of your weight but my numbers are at around 3k/1800 for workout days/rest days and I'm recomping. Seems to work good there as my weight has been anywhere from 170-173 for a few weeks and I continue to lean out and add in LBM.

    I'd be curious on others input but my guess is your Cal's are too high
    I think he's factoring in an average of 1300 cals of activity which is about double mine.
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickRock13 View Post
    I'm not sure if your goal is cut,recomp, or lean gain (with those numbers lean gain I assume) but even trying to add in LBM with little to no fat gain those numbers seem too high. I'm not sure of your weight but my numbers are at around 3k/1800 for workout days/rest days and I'm recomping. Seems to work good there as my weight has been anywhere from 170-173 for a few weeks and I continue to lean out and add in LBM.

    I'd be curious on others input but my guess is your Cal's are too high
    My goal is to recomp RickRock, my current weight is 209. I wasnt sure, but that seemed to be an azz load of calories. Should I recalculate using an approximate number of calories burned during workout added to my BMR?

    4wk Androhard/Androlean 4wkPCT log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/252210-greens-climb-top.html#post4548443
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    The way bloating comes off with this diet is nuts... On a thursday I was 204... after a weekend of drinking and eating like shxt I was 214 on monday... 72 hours later I was down to 202!

    So far though I would say this is a healthy cut/recomp strategy. Ive only lost 2 lbs a week on average but yet I feel like im leaning out considerably. I wish I would have taken pictures when I started LG because somedays I look in the mirror like "holy shxt!" and feel lean. I still have a good 2+ inches Id like to lose of my midsection because I carry fat horribly in my lower back

    The one thing I noticed with LG is not so much that I feel hungry or even limited so much as to what to eat... but that I almost want to eat healthier. Like my body is telling me I need to eat good stuff instead of craving all the crap... which might have to do with not limiting carbs as much as I have in the past... after about 2 weeks of limiting carbs my body goes nuts for sweets and I gain everything back.

    I also have found it easy to extend my fast past 18-19 hours on burn/low carb days, although sometimes thats because I get all my calories in before my 8 hour period is over on lifting days
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedGrunt View Post
    The way bloating comes off with this diet is nuts... On a thursday I was 204... after a weekend of drinking and eating like shxt I was 214 on monday... 72 hours later I was down to 202!

    So far though I would say this is a healthy cut/recomp strategy. Ive only lost 2 lbs a week on average but yet I feel like im leaning out considerably. I wish I would have taken pictures when I started LG because somedays I look in the mirror like "holy shxt!" and feel lean. I still have a good 2+ inches Id like to lose of my midsection because I carry fat horribly in my lower back

    The one thing I noticed with LG is not so much that I feel hungry or even limited so much as to what to eat... but that I almost want to eat healthier. Like my body is telling me I need to eat good stuff instead of craving all the crap... which might have to do with not limiting carbs as much as I have in the past... after about 2 weeks of limiting carbs my body goes nuts for sweets and I gain everything back.

    I also have found it easy to extend my fast past 18-19 hours on burn/low carb days, although sometimes thats because I get all my calories in before my 8 hour period is over on lifting days
    Yah I think we just get a much better appreciation for our food after fasting, everything just tastes better, seems more satisfying and you can almost feel nutrients entering you system as you eat. I believe it to be a very anabolic environment we are setting up with the fasting. Best of both worlds beyond a shadow of a doubt. In my log I posted some pics where I lost only 4 lbs and am about 5-7% body fat lower since I have been on it. As a matter of fact here they are....

    and After....
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Yah I think we just get a much better appreciation for our food after fasting, everything just tastes better, seems more satisfying and you can almost feel nutrients entering you system as you eat. I believe it to be a very anabolic environment we are setting up with the fasting. Best of both worlds beyond a shadow of a doubt. In my log I posted some pics where I lost only 4 lbs and am about 5-7% body fat lower since I have been on it. As a matter of fact here they are....

    and After....
    Awesome results DW!!!! REPS I remember your before pic from the **** transformation contest.

    LOL on the spray tan tho
    :blindfold:
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    Quote Originally Posted by monstermash View Post
    Awesome results DW!!!! REPS I remember your before pic from the **** transformation contest.

    LOL on the spray tan tho
    The tan was the best part of the pics I would look much better in the after with that kind of tan and less water...
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    Damn WEAVER! Lookin great!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedGrunt View Post
    Damn WEAVER! Lookin great!
    Thanks, I start my prep on Sunday 12 weeks of cutting ... well I'm already cut so with say ripping then shredding and finally slicing and dicing... going to take lean gains as far as I can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    The tan was the best part of the pics I would look much better in the after with that kind of tan and less water...
    Definitely wold look better with the tan but even without it, you're transformation is obvious. Once again, great job man!
    :blindfold:
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    The tan was the best part of the pics I would look much better in the after with that kind of tan and less water...
    No doubt! Its impressive when you can look better pale in a picture compared to when you were tan since tanning adds so much definition
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    TurningGreen - Honestly caloric intake is very personal. I have a slower or more efficient metabolism, so I can do more with less. I gain easily and I don't use any formula to figure out what I expend throughout the day. I know for me bw x 13-14 is my maintenance number. So now I am 205 2665-2870 is my maintenance range. Then do the -20 / +20 you get 2132 -2296 on a burn day, and 3198-3444 for the build day. Honestly, I would more than likely start to gain some body mass mass at the bw x 14 level, that would probably be more of a lean bulk for me.

    Now if you really expend 1300 cals a day and are counting that then you should be higher than me because I don't, but maybe only 500 cals more on a build day and leave the cals lower on the burn day to just keep burning fat with your activity level. Your muscle will not go anywhere even if you only got in 300-500 cals that day. I know you said you gain fat easily, so if you think your metabolism is similar to mine then try your body weight x 14 since you seem to have more activity going on in your typical day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedGrunt View Post
    No doubt! Its impressive when you can look better pale in a picture compared to when you were tan since tanning adds so much definition
    Not to mention drying out, I was holding some water in the after pics, just finished a 24 oz steak to boot... I will make a better effort to dry out with my progress pics..
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    No amount of pasty white skin can hide those abs Doug. Do you still have the Thiomucase if so you should do a practice run with it in a few weeks and see how much is tightens everything up. I am curious myself. I have been holding on to mine to use for a picture or contest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    No amount of pasty white skin can hide those abs Doug. Do you still have the Thiomucase if so you should do a practice run with it in a few weeks and see how much is tightens everything up. I am curious myself. I have been holding on to mine to use for a picture or contest.
    Uhhh... More info on Thiomucase please???
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    Uhhh... More info on Thiomucase please???
    Thiomucase
    ACTIVE SUBSTANCE: Thiomucase
    DESCRIPTION: Thiomucase Cream by**********is a mucopolysaccharidase obtained from ovine tissues mainly used to facilitate the diffusion of local anaesthetics and in the treatment of cellulitis. A patient with an anaphylaxis in relation to the intramuscular administration of Thiomucase Cream by ********* is reported. It is a chemical that was originally used as a dispersing agent.
    Thiomucase Cream by Almirall Spain temporarily tightens your skin and may reduce the visible signs of aging by discarding water from the fat cells. Thiomucase Cream by ********* allows as much as 20% more water to be freed from the fat cell. Thiomucase Cream by ********** is a safe and effective product for treating and preventing cellulite. Its natural component, mucopolysaccharidase, acts directly upon orange peel skin - reducing it in depth, and facilitating both retained water and fat release and drainage. This improves hydration of the skin and offers a firm and silky touch. On the other hand, and in parallel, the reducing effect of Thiomucase Cream by ********** helps to shape body contour - allowing the release of the fatty tissue located between the skin and muscles.
    :blindfold:
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    Quote Originally Posted by monstermash View Post
    Thiomucase
    ACTIVE SUBSTANCE: Thiomucase
    DESCRIPTION: Thiomucase Cream by**********is a mucopolysaccharidase obtained from ovine tissues mainly used to facilitate the diffusion of local anaesthetics and in the treatment of cellulitis. A patient with an anaphylaxis in relation to the intramuscular administration of Thiomucase Cream by ********* is reported. It is a chemical that was originally used as a dispersing agent.
    Thiomucase Cream by Almirall Spain temporarily tightens your skin and may reduce the visible signs of aging by discarding water from the fat cells. Thiomucase Cream by ********* allows as much as 20% more water to be freed from the fat cell. Thiomucase Cream by ********** is a safe and effective product for treating and preventing cellulite. Its natural component, mucopolysaccharidase, acts directly upon orange peel skin - reducing it in depth, and facilitating both retained water and fat release and drainage. This improves hydration of the skin and offers a firm and silky touch. On the other hand, and in parallel, the reducing effect of Thiomucase Cream by ********** helps to shape body contour - allowing the release of the fatty tissue located between the skin and muscles.
    WoW... That sound AMAZING, I have to try that! Where can I get some and how much is it, how long does a bottle or tube last, etc? Thank you for the info.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    WoW... That sound AMAZING, I have to try that! Where can I get some and how much is it, how long does a bottle or tube last, etc? Thank you for the info.
    It does sound amazing, but it looks like a company write up so I have to wonder if there is anything that actually substantiates their claims.

    BTW, just a couple things I've personally noticed doing LG diet for a couple months now. I perform much better in the gym when I'm in a "fed" state as opposed to a fasted or semi-fasted (BCAA only) state. Also, I find it usually pretty easy to fast for the 16 hours but when I start the 8 hour anabolic window of food consumption...it's harder to make myself stop! I've taken to increasing fiber and greens to help with satiation without having to risk overeating.
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    Yeah I think most people will train better in a fed state, if performance is the goal then your performance should be during the fed state more than likely. If just improving composition then I would give the nod to fasted training.

    Once you start eating big it is definitely very easy to over eat which is funny because the first time I started this i stopped after 3 days because it was just too much food. Then I read more, added more dense foods and was able to do it but extremely full to the point of discomfort almost. However 2 weeks in I was eating my cals no problem and even after that I had to start watching to make sure I didn't go over.

    As far as Thiomucase, when i read on it originally it was illegal for human use but can be picked up as a research chem. However now it is being sold in a mix with caffiene by **** at their site. Doug and I both got a sample of it with an order from them. Now the original research claimed exactly the same thing, and many professional body builders use it to tighten up their loose skinf from bulking huge then cutting down big time and it would be loose coming up on the contest.
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    If it is pretty well priced, I would not mind giving it a go for say maybe the last week of my upcoming Hallow-Lean Prep!!!
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