The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log
- 06-07-2011, 06:45 PM
- 06-07-2011, 06:53 PM
I thought that was supposed to be Cherry not Apple...
WOW never ceases to amaze me the things and places people will put things.Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
Use Kleen10 for a 10% discount
06-07-2011, 07:05 PM
06-07-2011, 08:20 PM
06-07-2011, 09:11 PM
Serious Nutrition Solutions rep
06-07-2011, 09:16 PM
06-07-2011, 11:04 PM
06-07-2011, 11:09 PM
In your theory, I only feel less attracted to this woman, because she is leaner than I. It has nothing to do with the fact she has the frame of a man, or has huge veins coming out of her sixpack, right? It's all cause i feel threatened, right? I guess, if a woman makes fun of a guy who has bigger tits than she does, its cause she feels threatened? You see how crazy that sounds?
The definition of masculinity is having qualities traditionally ascribed to men. Men traditionally have more muscle mass/definition and lower BF% than women. So yeah, it does make her more masculine, looking like she does. Just like a guy having long hair and tits would make him look more feminine.
For me, the action IS the juice.
06-08-2011, 01:05 AM
I did not make any theory at all; stop trying to twist my words. Ava does not have the "frame of a man", and vascularity in the midsection is not an issue - I have that, and when I get leaner, as much as she does as well. I have yet to meet a female who "makes fun of a guy who has bigger tits than she does", and there are many males out there who fall into this category.
We do not live in a "traditional" world, so to give a stereotype of how men and women SHOULD be and look is somewhat IRrelevant. A female being lean does NOT "make her more masculine" - I am leaner than probably ~95% of people that I know, including men, and I am in no way masculine (except perhaps in attitude and behaviour, as I have been accused sometimes, being as competitive as I am, and a tomboy until only recent years, but how I am should not matter to anyone else). The same as a male having long hair does not make him feminine by any means, nor does being fat or having gyno (which is the only reason he would have larger breast tissue than a woman).
But, you are entitled to your opinions and I to mine, and since I have no interest in anyone trying to cause issues or arguments, nor is there any reason to further this exchange, I consider this discussion done. Back to the topic of this thread - Lean Gains and Intermittent Fasting protocols and experiences.
06-08-2011, 01:19 AM
Yes, lets get back to the wife/gf problem...
I don't know what it is going to take... Muscle wasting diets, plus endless cardio... do they realize what muscle is? always makes me sad when my fiance is like why do I have fat here, why do I have pimples? And I just tell her well... diet, exercise are you doing them? And she says stuff like i don't wanna be big, i'm too lazy. sigh.... Now for the wedding she actually joined some gym. Apparently, they told her they can do spot reduction for her lat area... Poliquin says it's carb intolerance, but i'd be interested to see how/if the Japanese gym guys tackle this... They told her she doesn't need to change her diet... She does some like weird stretching thing in the back supposedly tightening that area...
06-08-2011, 01:23 AM
For me, the action IS the juice.
06-08-2011, 12:06 PM
06-08-2011, 12:18 PM
If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
06-08-2011, 12:24 PM
Back on topic...
Has anyone looked at using HumaPro by ALRI or Gear from NTBM during the fast instead of or in addition to BCAA?
06-08-2011, 12:56 PM
06-08-2011, 01:10 PM
I have used aminos, not used aminos, used Gear, honestly if there are differences they are so slight I am not seeing them. Although at the same time the SPP intrigues me due to suggested increased bioavailability in the intestines due to length of time it is supposedly available there for use do to it's increased size. That is one thing that kind of intrigues me. However do I think it is needed no. Do I even know if the regular use of aminos during the fast offers anything that the rebound effect from not having them would not negate during the supercompensation period in the anabolic window.
What percent of an increase in protein synthesis is there from the small bursts of aminos compared to the supercompensation effect of the body from not having protein to synthesize in the first place? Does it equal out, is it greater, is the difference so small that it would not justify the increased expense of aminos? That is the real question...
Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
Use Kleen10 for a 10% discount
06-08-2011, 01:17 PM
During the Nutra sale, I picked up a couple tubs of HumaPro since I was out of EAA. So far the taste is good with both of them and they mix well, but too early to tell any results. I take 1 scoop pre-workout, 1 scoop post workout (both fasted), and then 1 more scoop pre-bed (again during fast, about 3-4 hours after last meal).
I am also using NTBM Gear, 4 caps pre-workout and 4 caps post-workout, fasted in both cases. These are easy to take, and more convenient than a powder.
I'm wondering which, if either, would be most beneficial. I'm stacking them because I want to keep aminos going around my workout even though I fast until 4 hours post workout.
I also take BCAA 2 hours after my workout, and sometimes another dose 2hrs after that.
A LOT OF AMINOS!!!!
06-08-2011, 01:27 PM
My only issue is that's 2g of whole protein and about 7g of free-form EAA. Personally, there's no way I'd be satisfied with that as my post-workout nutrition.
I guess, since you're continuing to fast post-workout, it makes some sense, but I don't see the benefit of using those two over just, say, leucine.
06-08-2011, 01:33 PM
Regarding the "anabolic window", isn't that immediately post workout reaching its peak about 4hrs post workout? I thought I read on LB that if you workout in the morning that you should use aminos to help keep MPS up until you break your fast.
The ideal situation is to break your fast immediately post workout, but for those of us who workout fasted in the morning and have to go 4+ hours to break fast, it seems that aminos are recommended.
I agree aminos are not needed, no supplement really is by definition, but I can't imagine how going without aminos would be better. I don't think it's quantifiable how much better/worse it is.
06-08-2011, 01:37 PM
More from MB:
"Consuming BCAAs every other hour through the fast is sufficient to keep protein synthesis stimulated and prevent protein breakdown. If protein intake is completely omitted, it would undoubtedly affect results negatively. Thus the compromise of ingesting BCAA pre- and post-workout through the fast, before the real post-workout meal, which is initiated at the usual time of the feeding phase.
Will we still derive the benefits from regular fasting if we consume small amounts of protein throughout the fast post-workout? Yes. If carbs are omitted, the increased insulin sensitivity will quickly bring back basal insulin to fasted state levels despite consuming 120 calories worth of fairly insulinogenic amino acids. The fasted state is almost fully maintained post-workout.
When the post-workout meal comes around is also when muscle protein synthesis is beginning to take off. Though muscle protein synthesis is acutely stimulated post-workout in response to resistance training and protein intake, studies show some latency in regards to elevation and peak. Protein synthesis starts to climb about 3-4 hours post-workout, reaches a peak at the 24-hour-mark and returns close to baseline values 36 hours post-workout (or 48 hours depending on who you ask; studies on this topic show slightly different results regarding length and peak of elevation). Even if you push back the post-workout meal a few hours, you will be in the fed state at a time when nutrient partitioning is optimized and muscle growth likely to occur.
By consuming small amounts of BCAA through the fasted state we are stimulating synthesis and halting breakdown. A few hours later, when protein synthesis is increasing, we enter the fed state. The latency seen with protein synthesis in response to training, and the fact that we have amino acids (BCAA) in circulation pre- and post-workout, goes a long way in explaining why clients following this protocol get equal results to those following other protocols."
"It's impossible to quantify the losses from omitting protein intake in the hours pre and post-workout. I doubt the consequences will be "severe" (as in: gaining nothing without pre and post-workout protein intake).
Protein balance will be negatively affected if there are no substrates available for protein synthesis. After feeding, balance will turn positive. By not consuming protein in the hours pre and post-workout you are missing out on a few hours of the day where strategically you'd want to have aminos available for synthesis."
and something on Leucine vs. BCAA/EAA:
"There are no studies looking at leucine alone vs BCAA/EAA. Leucine is the key regulator of muscle protein synthesis but it may be that the other two branched-chain aminos play a role as well. In this case I'd rather be safe than sorry and go with BCAA/EAA."
06-08-2011, 01:49 PM
All well and good, but theres no way you're getting 120 cals of aminos from your 7g dose.
And if I were ingesting that much aminos, yes, I would want to include other residues besides leucine. But a 7g dose? Straight leucine, please.
06-08-2011, 02:46 PM
Milas, the point that I was making in the other post is that perhaps the their is a supercompensation effect IE an adaptation to the minor nitrogen dip by causing even higher nitrogen retention once feeding has restarted. Think of it the same as growing a muscle. You apply stress to the muscle via progressive resistance, which causes a need for adaptation via super compensation when rebuilding the muscle tissue. So I am not discounting that yes there may be, or more than likely is a temporary dip in nitrogen levels if no other substrate was available. However is there not a similar checks and balances type thing in place for this particular system? I am almost sure that there is.
Also it comes to mind re-reading the info you just put up that protein synthesis is naturally cyclical. I am not sure how much we are beating the natural cycle with the addition of aminos. If I remember correctly the natural cycle kind of runs in 4 hour waves.
If protein synthesis does not begin to climb until 3-4 hours after working out then how exactly does he expect there to be degradation of protein if it is not being synthesized or used at the time? Also during a fast as short as the ones we are fasting both protein synthesis, and protein breakdown is blunted and lypolosis is the main source of energy for the body due to the active amount of glucagon like peptide in the system during a fast.
For this method of eating I refer to the anabolic window as the anabolic window we create via our fast. The 8 hour eating window is the anabolic window to me now, not just a few hours following the workout. That is just the time insulin sensitivity is high from the exercise stimulation. With IF you create your anabolic window by increasing insulin sensitivity via the fast.
It has been shown that not feeding the muscles carbs post workout further increases insulin sensitivity in the muscle tissue increasing the nutrient uptake when ingested later. Part of the reason for the Carb free post workout that DatBTrue came up with that works really well for the people using it. I am only mentioning it because it also supports the reasoning behind my theory that there may indeed be a super compensation of nitrogen retention after dipping into a negative nitrogen balance if indeed this negative balance can happen in the short 16 hour period of fasting.
Remember although this is labeled Lean Gains in the title I am also going off of a colletion of information from many various IF methodolgies to develop my IF strategies and experience.
I imagine someone here is really good at searching pubmed, if so I would be curious if anyone can find a study showing that there is an up swing in notrogen retention above normal after going into a negative nitrogen balance. Also perhaps if they can find anything that states how long it takes to acheive the negative nitrogen balance using resistance training as a stressor.
Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
Use Kleen10 for a 10% discount
06-08-2011, 03:29 PM
Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids
Kevin D. Tipton, Arny A. Ferrando, Stuart M. Phillips, David Doyle Jr., and Robert R. Wolfe
We examined the response of net muscle protein synthesis to ingestion of amino acids after a bout of resistance exercise. A primed, constant infusion ofl-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine was used to measure net muscle protein balance in three male and three female volunteers on three occasions. Subjects consumed in random order 1 liter of 1) a mixed amino acid (40 g) solution (MAA), 2) an essential amino acid (40 g) solution (EAA), and3) a placebo solution (PLA). Arterial amino acid concentrations increased ∼150–640% above baseline during ingestion of MAA and EAA. Net muscle protein balance was significantly increased from negative during PLA ingestion (−50 ± 23 nmol ⋅ min−1 ⋅ 100 ml leg volume−1) to positive during MAA ingestion (17 ± 13 nmol ⋅ min−1 ⋅ 100 ml leg volume−1) and EAA (29 ± 14 nmol ⋅ min−1 ⋅ 100 ml leg volume−1;P < 0.05). Because net balance was similar for MAA and EAA, it does not appear necessary to include nonessential amino acids in a formulation designed to elicit an anabolic response from muscle after exercise. We concluded that ingestion of oral essential amino acids results in a change from net muscle protein degradation to net muscle protein synthesis after heavy resistance exercise in humans similar to that seen when the amino acids were infused.
Based on what actually happens in the body, it doesn't seem like protein/nitrogen supercomensation is likely either.
I still don't think there's anything supporting nitrogen supercompensation, but I do agree that it's all about nitrogen balance over a 24hr period for anabolism...
06-08-2011, 09:24 PM
I have been taking aminos pre and post workout, but not at all on burn days. Although I may add more back in when funds allow.
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06-08-2011, 10:14 PM
A lot of good info in here on Aminos...now my brain is officially fried!! Thanks guys!!
Recoverbro Elite"This is what we've been working on"
06-08-2011, 10:20 PM
Well to start off... all I have to say is that is MrKleens name was secretly Billy Mays and this shxt was for sale... ID BE SOLD LIKE A MOTHERFXCKER! hahaha
Then again that infomercial guy is dead and this shxt is free advice! All joking aside I am very intrigued by this diet and looking forward to researching some more... Tried to read as much as I could on my evo today but that small screen for reading 30 pages gets tiring!
So I guess Im trying to figure out where I would come in to play on this spectrum. I wake up at 5am and work anywhere from 6am to roughly 6-7pm... Now I understand I could break my fast around 1230-1pm and still have plenty of time to get all my meals in before 9pm ish. What concerns me is that I work on a landscaping maintenance crew so on any given day I have already probably walked 1-3 hours with a trimmer in my hand or a blower on my back. Seems like it could be a lot of exercise to be doing fasted... do you think doing this with BCAAs would be ok?
Also for a guy like me with my schedule and work... would my biggest meal prefer to be the fast break... or my post workout meal? My post workout meal will approximately be 1-3 hours before bed.
Right now im trying the 40/40/20 diet or at least close to it. Im going to see how that pans out for a couple weeks and if im not happy with the results then im definitely coming over to the LG... but i'd like to start learning now
Thanks fellas! And Ladies
06-08-2011, 10:52 PM
I'd go with 40% of calories pre-workout at some point for the fast-break and maybe pre-workout snack depending on workout timing, then the rest of the 60% calories post workout and before bed. Save the larger portion of carbs for post workout, and get some protein and fat before bed.
BCAA would be good while fasted IMO, best is not sipping them all day but rather slamming it to get a spike and start MPS. Do that every 2 hous while fasting and you should be good. I'd recommend a 4:1:1 or 8:1:1 ratio for the BCAA.
Just my opinion, others may have better ideas.
06-09-2011, 01:53 AM
If you're going to sleep at 9PM, you would start eating at 1PM or close to it -- maybe you have a lunch break around this point? A half-hour or so in either direction is no biggy either and can easily be adapted to your schedule.
Despite the fact that you're quite active before your first meal, you should actually be burning primarily fat as opposed to slipping into catabolism. As Milas suggested, you could utilize BCAAs to initiate protein synthesis during the fast every few hours -- you could just put X grams into a water bottle and drink a certain amount throughout your morning.
I'm not sure how many calories you're taking in total, but I would shoot for roughly 30% at ~1PM (Meal 1) with the remaining 70% falling in the post-workout window (i.e. the entire time between training and sleeping); this kind of setup allows you to utilize the majority of your calories toward glycogen replenishment and protein synthesis.
Hopefully some of that answers your questions bud!
06-10-2011, 07:47 AM
Wow, how low can we go with this diet...? I dropped more weight on vacation, did a lot of cardio and extended fast then ate like a pig and got leaner... I am now leaner than I have ever been I think which puts me in the neighborhood of 6% and there is no sign I can't go lower as I have not even started to do any kind of prep...
06-10-2011, 11:39 AM
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