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    I'm glad you made this thread Kleen. It will help a lot of people learn about this concept and the many benefits of it.

    I am happy that you helped me get on the lean gains, and its hard telling what kind of progress I would have made without it but I know it would be less.

    I would have to check my log but I started this around 4 weeks ago at around 196 at 16+% BF, and my stats now are 183 at 12.6%. Needless to say I'm a firm believer in it, and will stay on it until I can see a reason to change.

    It has gotten so easy to do its almost silly and just natural to eat the 8 hours a day. I seem to appreciate my meals a lot more too. I know how great it is for fat loss, and I just need to test out its abilities with lean body mass. I will do that once I reach my target weight and increase Cal's more for muscle gain.

    I think lean gains is about the closest thing we have to getting the best of both worlds and all that with a lot of freedom in your diet
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    SO Resolve what would you note the biggest differences are between the ADF fasting protocal and the Lean Gains seeing as you have a good bit of experience in both? I see you have migrated to the ADF recently do you foresee you sticking with this or moving back towards the Lean Gains type of IF.

    I know recently you added 4 lbs to your frame without any obvious fat gain how has that held up since going off of the AA product?
    ADF fits my current schedule better for one particular reason:
    - my CNS recovers better with 2 shorter training sessions a day, rather than one 2hr session. Between my morning and evening sessions, calories are of utmost importance to keep me from burning out. So I eat a ton on lifting days from dawn til dusk, then fast on recovery days.

    I have used both LG and ADF successfully for both weight gain and fat-loss, the key really is calories. On recovery days, knock 'em really low. Martin reecommends eating only 50% of your lifting day cals and performing fasted cardio as well to boost progress. In my current ADF routine, I usually only a salad or a protein shake before bed, as otherwise I'm too hungry to sleep.

    I was able to "cut" while eating 3800 cals a day, 4days a week. I didn't get into contest ready shape, but my physique changed a LOT in 2 months.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    ADF fits my current schedule better for one particular reason:
    - my CNS recovers better with 2 shorter training sessions a day, rather than one 2hr session. Between my morning and evening sessions, calories are of utmost importance to keep me from burning out. So I eat a ton on lifting days from dawn til dusk, then fast on recovery days.

    I have used both LG and ADF successfully for both weight gain and fat-loss, the key really is calories. On recovery days, knock 'em really low. Martin reecommends eating only 50% of your lifting day cals and performing fasted cardio as well to boost progress. In my current ADF routine, I usually only a salad or a protein shake before bed, as otherwise I'm too hungry to sleep.

    I was able to "cut" while eating 3800 cals a day, 4days a week. I didn't get into contest ready shape, but my physique changed a LOT in 2 months.
    Love that, that is kind of what I migrated too automatically through experimentation. I may give the ADF a try for a month or two at some point but for now I am enjoying lean gains.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    ADF fits my current schedule better for one particular reason:
    - my CNS recovers better with 2 shorter training sessions a day, rather than one 2hr session. Between my morning and evening sessions, calories are of utmost importance to keep me from burning out. So I eat a ton on lifting days from dawn til dusk, then fast on recovery days.

    I have used both LG and ADF successfully for both weight gain and fat-loss, the key really is calories. On recovery days, knock 'em really low. Martin reecommends eating only 50% of your lifting day cals and performing fasted cardio as well to boost progress. In my current ADF routine, I usually only a salad or a protein shake before bed, as otherwise I'm too hungry to sleep.

    I was able to "cut" while eating 3800 cals a day, 4days a week. I didn't get into contest ready shape, but my physique changed a LOT in 2 months.
    I'm guessing by recovery days that means any days not lifting...correct? So that would cover cardio only days and rest days both if I understand that correctly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    ADF fits my current schedule better for one particular reason:
    - my CNS recovers better with 2 shorter training sessions a day, rather than one 2hr session. Between my morning and evening sessions, calories are of utmost importance to keep me from burning out. So I eat a ton on lifting days from dawn til dusk, then fast on recovery days.

    I have used both LG and ADF successfully for both weight gain and fat-loss, the key really is calories. On recovery days, knock 'em really low. Martin reecommends eating only 50% of your lifting day cals and performing fasted cardio as well to boost progress. In my current ADF routine, I usually only a salad or a protein shake before bed, as otherwise I'm too hungry to sleep.

    I was able to "cut" while eating 3800 cals a day, 4days a week. I didn't get into contest ready shape, but my physique changed a LOT in 2 months.
    I lost 5 lbs my first week and did not have a big difference in my wd to nwd's 2800 to 2500 what's amazing is I just came off a cut where I was eating only around 2000 cals and doing 4 more hours cardio a week and still did better on this protocol. I don't want to lose any faster than I am now... and it's been very easy. We'll see later though, right now I am coming off the most miraculous week I have seen in 25 years in the sport. I don't want to fug with that....
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    I read about this almost a year ago and was really intrigued. Oddly enough, I haven't done it yet mostly because it's terribly inconvenient for my kind of lifestyle. It also seems a little expensive. Still waiting to try it out though. It is perfect in how I work out around 5pm, though.
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    I actually find it very convenient for eating in the evening and less expensive. I don't have to worry about food until noon, and can eat out with more freedom until 8PM. That covers most of my time. However, lifestyles are all different...
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    resolve, do you have a link or a book for the ADF protocol?
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    This is very interesting, do you guys have any links that talks extensively on this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKanezzi View Post
    resolve, do you have a link or a book for the ADF protocol?
    No, I'm making it up as I go, based off what I know about IF.

    Basically:

    Lifting Day = Eat like a god

    Recovery Day = Food? What's that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by taylorgains96 View Post
    This is very interesting, do you guys have any links that talks extensively on this?
    The main principles are here: http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html

    But that blog/site contains tons of articles that delve more specifically into the principles. Kleen's original post also has a bunch of good links in it, or you could just browse around the categories on leangains.com.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    No, I'm making it up as I go, based off what I know about IF.

    Basically:

    Lifting Day = Eat like a god

    Recovery Day = Food? What's that?
    What do your total calories and CHO intake look like on your recovery days Resolve?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    What do your total calories and CHO intake look like on your recovery days Resolve?
    Well, today was a recovery day. I consumed:

    A large spinach salad with chopped mushrooms and a bit of baked rutabaga crumbled over top. I used some hummus and balsamic vinegar for dressing.
    Topped this with 10oz chicken breast. That's it.

    So...20g carbs? I don't know...


    And I'm bulking right now too
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    The main principles are here:

    But that blog/site contains tons of articles that delve more specifically into the principles. Kleen's original post also has a bunch of good links in it, or you could just browse around the categories on leangains.com.
    Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    Well, today was a recovery day. I consumed:

    A large spinach salad with chopped mushrooms and a bit of baked rutabaga crumbled over top. I used some hummus and balsamic vinegar for dressing.
    Topped this with 10oz chicken breast. That's it.

    So...20g carbs? I don't know...


    And I'm bulking right now too
    Oh wow, so what's the rationale behind cutting calories so severely on rest days? I've heard Berkhan say that protein should stay high even on off days and never caught where he said to drop them real low on rest days. I've only seen his recommendation of roughly 80% of maintenance calories.

    Or is this just an alteration that you've found to be particularly effective or useful through experience?
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    Great thread Kleen! I've been running IF since last July whether cutting or gaining. It has made eating much simpler for me. I eat starting at 1pm and finish at 9pm with my workouts starting around 5pm. Only positives so far though I still want to shed a few more bodyfat% points. It's so freeing not having to worry about eating every few hours or when I wake up. Thanks Martin!
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    Ok getting a word in to get subbed, don't have time right now to read it but will sooooon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Oh wow, so what's the rationale behind cutting calories so severely on rest days? I've heard Berkhan say that protein should stay high even on off days and never caught where he said to drop them real low on rest days. I've only seen his recommendation of roughly 80% of maintenance calories.

    Or is this just an alteration that you've found to be particularly effective or useful through experience?
    Martin talks about taking cals real low in his recomp program.

    I don't consider him the be-all/end-all authority on fasting though. I'm gaining weight and strength on my current regimen, but it's still a bit early before I would recommend anyone else try this.. I take leucine throughout my fast.

    It's the same basic premise as LG - don't eat for a while, then eat a lot within a given time frame. I've just lengthened the fast to about 24hr and the eating window to about 12.
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    when u guys are trying to get ur cals in.....on a lifting day lets say, do u jsut eat whatever u want, or do u still try to stick with low carb or "healthier" foods, or do u go hit up mcdonalds lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    In for the info
    x2 Great thread!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkretz View Post
    when u guys are trying to get ur cals in.....on a lifting day lets say, do u jsut eat whatever u want, or do u still try to stick with low carb or "healthier" foods, or do u go hit up mcdonalds lol
    The diet is much more lenient on lifting days, but not a free for all either. I still have a caloric count I aim for as well as macro ratios. Its rare for me to get something like mcdonalds, though I have. I usually eat mostly clean even on lifting days, but may have higher Carb meals like pasta
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickRock13 View Post
    The diet is much more lenient on lifting days, but not a free for all either. I still have a caloric count I aim for as well as macro ratios. Its rare for me to get something like mcdonalds, though I have. I usually eat mostly clean even on lifting days, but may have higher Carb meals like pasta
    Yah I would never do MD's or anything like that.. my idea of cheating is burgers that are 90% lean with multigrain flat bread buns and a couple cups frozen yogurt for desert.. which was last nights dinner... I am very satisfied with this style of eating.
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    How often do you guys utilize leucine or BCAAs during your fasted portion?

    On week days, I wake around 6:30-7:00 for work, eat first meal between 12:00 and 12:30 and then wrap up accordingly at 8:00 or 8:30 (working out at ~4:30 on non-off days), then go to bed usually around 11:00.

    Do / would you hit some aminos upon rising, a few hours later and then just before bed? I haven't been hitting any during the fast, lately, but I was doing the above at first. The one thing is that I'm trying to avoid the morning dosing because I don't know if it would screw with my Synthroid or not (since it's supposed to be no food for at least an hour after dosing).
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    How often do you guys utilize leucine or BCAAs during your fasted portion?

    On week days, I wake around 6:30-7:00 for work, eat first meal between 12:00 and 12:30 and then wrap up accordingly at 8:00 or 8:30 (working out at ~4:30 on non-off days), then go to bed usually around 11:00.

    Do / would you hit some aminos upon rising, a few hours later and then just before bed? I haven't been hitting any during the fast, lately, but I was doing the above at first. The one thing is that I'm trying to avoid the morning dosing because I don't know if it would screw with my Synthroid or not (since it's supposed to be no food for at least an hour after dosing).
    I get up take a BCAA/EAA drink and one halfway between around 9am and then I break myh fast around noon. As i go into more of a calorie deficit I may increase amonts... I will be using BCAA's around workouts at that time also. Right now I am in a fed state and eating pretty good so am just using my regular shake after workout.
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    Normally i read a lot here, but never post a lot.

    regarding this subject, i follow this almost 1 year now. And love love it.

    i believe everyone should found a regimen for a diet that ADAPTS YOU, and not you adapts the regimen.

    So its so easy to eat BIG, only 3 times/day!

    As an example yesterday was a workout day i eat:

    meal 1 12h pm - 50g protein (+200g of beef) + veggies + 30g EVOO ~500kcals
    meal 2 16h pm - 50 protein (60g casein powder) + 30g extra virgin coconut oil ~500kcals
    meal 3 epic meal lol 20h pm - 100g protein (around 400g chicken) + 200g or brown rice + 100 strawberries ~under 1500kcal

    I'm not related only with calories, as i know how many grams i'm eating and change the calories based on the grams and it easier.

    So is an easy sample of my menu with not so many calories, and still i can enjoy eating.

    If your train require more carbs i will easily add an intra workout drink with plenty of amino's and a carb source. Depending on that, some times i add 50g carbs peri workout and cut a little PWO.

    Cheers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Normally i read a lot here, but never post a lot.

    regarding this subject, i follow this almost 1 year now. And love love it.

    i believe everyone should found a regimen for a diet that ADAPTS YOU, and not you adapts the regimen.

    So its so easy to eat BIG, only 3 times/day!

    As an example yesterday was a workout day i eat:

    meal 1 12h pm - 50g protein (+200g of beef) + veggies + 30g EVOO ~500kcals
    meal 2 16h pm - 50 protein (60g casein powder) + 30g extra virgin coconut oil ~500kcals
    meal 3 epic meal lol 20h pm - 100g protein (around 400g chicken) + 200g or brown rice + 100 strawberries ~under 1500kcal

    I'm not related only with calories, as i know how many grams i'm eating and change the calories based on the grams and it easier.

    So is an easy sample of my menu with not so many calories, and still i can enjoy eating.

    If your train require more carbs i will easily add an intra workout drink with plenty of amino's and a carb source. Depending on that, some times i add 50g carbs peri workout and cut a little PWO.

    Cheers
    Yah that's what I have been telling everyone this is the way I should have been eating all along... when I think of all the time I spent trying to adapt myself to dieting schemes that did not match my needs...
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    I think everyone shall found the way they easily keep progress.

    I tried to apply IF methods with a lot of people and some of them are really impossible because it does not adapts.

    But for someone with this requirements just give it a shoot:

    - easily eat big meals
    - like to be satiated after meals
    - easily eat more then 1k with dense calories healthy food
    - maybe include here slow metabolism, or at least not very quick metabolisms

    so try it! of course IMO for 6k kcal became very hard to eat 3x 2k kcals meals, not for me will be difficult lol but someone that is looking to between 3-4k kcals it maybe is an easy way to do it.

    It is so good to have a 2k kcals dinner with a big bowl of Rice and half a kg of chicken
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    How often do you guys utilize leucine or BCAAs during your fasted portion?

    On week days, I wake around 6:30-7:00 for work, eat first meal between 12:00 and 12:30 and then wrap up accordingly at 8:00 or 8:30 (working out at ~4:30 on non-off days), then go to bed usually around 11:00.

    Do / would you hit some aminos upon rising, a few hours later and then just before bed? I haven't been hitting any during the fast, lately, but I was doing the above at first. The one thing is that I'm trying to avoid the morning dosing because I don't know if it would screw with my Synthroid or not (since it's supposed to be no food for at least an hour after dosing).
    I wake up at 5-5:30 and I have BCAAs (10g) at 6. Work out 6:15-7:30ish, more BCAAs at around 7:30-7:45 and then BCAAs again at 10am and break my fast at 12 noon. Eat until 8 pm and have BCAAs at around 10pm before going to bed....wake up and repeat!!
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    If the interest is to train fasted, then nothing shall be ingested unless is my big cup of black coffee.

    But it depends if you want to train fasted or not. If the interest is to train after 1-2 meals i will use some type of amino's drink (bcaa's, peptopro, leucine, etc) and some carb mix inside.

    my 2 cent
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    If the interest is to train fasted, then nothing shall be ingested unless is my big cup of black coffee.

    But it depends if you want to train fasted or not. If the interest is to train after 1-2 meals i will use some type of amino's drink (bcaa's, peptopro, leucine, etc) and some carb mix inside.

    my 2 cent
    That's basically opposite of logical. You need the aminos most when you're fasted. If you've already had a meal or two, they're not going to make as profound of a difference.
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    Maybe you missunderstood me.

    I believe that are two types of training:

    1 - fully fasted
    2 - not fully fasted

    If you go fasted and ingest any aminos is what? semi-fasted?

    I normally only workout fasted, when i'm out of country and have to workout at the morning. Then i went only with coffee and after training an epic meal.

    If i'm at home, e eat my lunch, pre training meal, intra training with carbs and aminos (first carbs of the day) and big meal after.

    EDIT: if you believe that a good selection of amino's to use intra training, one that are not competitive in absorption, are not a profound difference, so we have very different opinions. I'm not a fan of BCAA's as i believe is a waist of money, if i buy only BCAA's based products i will buy only leucine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkretz View Post
    when u guys are trying to get ur cals in.....on a lifting day lets say, do u jsut eat whatever u want, or do u still try to stick with low carb or "healthier" foods, or do u go hit up mcdonalds lol
    I stick to calorie dense but clean foods. Lots of healthy fat and protein, carbs are limited to pre- and post-workout.

    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    How often do you guys utilize leucine or BCAAs during your fasted portion?

    On week days, I wake around 6:30-7:00 for work, eat first meal between 12:00 and 12:30 and then wrap up accordingly at 8:00 or 8:30 (working out at ~4:30 on non-off days), then go to bed usually around 11:00.

    Do / would you hit some aminos upon rising, a few hours later and then just before bed? I haven't been hitting any during the fast, lately, but I was doing the above at first. The one thing is that I'm trying to avoid the morning dosing because I don't know if it would screw with my Synthroid or not (since it's supposed to be no food for at least an hour after dosing).
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    I lift from about 4:30-5:30am 3 days a week now (GVT). This means I should do the following routine on lifting days correct:

    4:20am BCAA
    5:40am BCAA
    8:00am BCAA
    10:00am BCAA
    12pm-8pm eating window
    *wash, rinse, repeat

    Would I be good with BCAA's at 9am instead of both 8am and 10am?

    What about non lifting days? Should I still supplement BCAA's in the morning or just run them with nothing until I reach my eating window?
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    I have been doing this for about 3-4 months now, with good results. For the majority of that time, I had things very loose, just focusing on maintaining/SLOWLY losing BF, while hopefully adding muscle. I did just that. The scale didn't change, and in the end I ended up gaining 1-2lbs, but was noticeably leaner, as well as my waist was down.

    The last 2 weeks I have adjusted things to focus more on losing BF, at a more accelerated rate. I made a few changes. One thing I did was cut carbs out completely, and implemented a full day Saturday refeed. Additionally on non workout days, I don't eat my first meal until 5-530pm. I just sip aminos durring the day. My one meal I do eat at 12:30 on WO days is fairly small, and usually just FF greek yogurt with 25g of protein, and walnuts mixed in.

    My large meal of the day, I kept at 5-5:30 pm, and have kept my protein sources loose. Chicken thighs, fattier cuts of steak, pork, etc. I usually eat that with a big salad with oil based dressing, some nuts, etc.

    Once I stall out and plateau, I will clean up my protein sources to reduce fat.

    I have not been counting calories, at all(for once in my life), but just try to get in 1lb of meat at my large meal. I am trying to really not complicate it, and try to enjoy what I am eating for a change.

    Saturdays I refeed, basically "Skipload" style. High GI carbs, low fat, and as much as I can pack in. I have implemented this method for a couple years, when keeping carbs lower.
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    The fasting protocals seem to vary regarding when to have amino acids. One thing consistently shown is that it takes a few days for your body to begin the signal to start catabolism. The first few days of a fast are actually spent in an increased metabolic rate not a slower one. That does not happend for a few days after the fast begins. In the beginning of the fast the energy expenditure is naturally leaning towards being active to encourage the foraging and hunting. During this time the body feeds on fat. It naturally knows to increase lypolosis, and increase BMR to keep the body active. It takes some time but as the leptin levels begin to deplete the body begins to change its focus to an energy saving mode. This is when the body starts to preserve fat and goes after the muscle. However there is not logical reason to think that a workout done after an overnight fast would have any catabolic effect at all. None of these approaches get anywhere near the point where catabolism is going to be a factor. However the effort people are making with the aminos, and leucine is to stimulate protein synthesis during the training and to supply some substrate to be used during the time of gross underfeeding.

    In my opinion on and ADF you would not have any reason to take Aminos on your training day seeing as to the fact you will be taking in a ton of protein and there will be no shortage of aminos in the blood stream. However adding them into the fasting period to increase some protein synthesis may be useless it is definitely not hurting anything short of our pockets. I will go amino less at some point to test the theory and if not changes in recovery that will be another supplement I drop off my arsenal. Man this is gonna make me rich soon if I keep finding it makes supplements I was using not needed any longer.

    Many of you may want to look up DatBTrue and some of his stuff on ADF fasting as well as his "Carbless Post Work Out" He details out quite a bit of how ADF is being done and how they have semi perfected the post workout nutrition to go along with ADF. He also lists all of the various health benefits of ADF. Many you would be surprised of.
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post
    I lift from about 4:30-5:30am 3 days a week now (GVT). This means I should do the following routine on lifting days correct:

    4:20am BCAA
    5:40am BCAA
    8:00am BCAA
    10:00am BCAA
    12pm-8pm eating window
    *wash, rinse, repeat

    Would I be good with BCAA's at 9am instead of both 8am and 10am?

    What about non lifting days? Should I still supplement BCAA's in the morning or just run them with nothing until I reach my eating window?
    Those adjustments would work fine. Like I said honestly there should not be any chance of catabolism so you aren't really protecting yourself so much as doing extra credit work. I would put the aminos into an "Above and beyond category" while doing fasting. Not something that has to be done.
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    Thanks Kleen. I have a huge supply of them that I stocked up on so I will just use them until I run out and then try it without to see if I notice any difference.
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    the piece I worry about a little as I shift from how I was eating to this is that with first meal at noon, i'll likely only eat 2 real meals with maybe a snack inbetween. So I worry a little that i'll get used to the meals being of that size and times when I don't eat IF style (ie go have breakfast somewhere) i'll way too easily go over daily total cals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Those adjustments would work fine. Like I said honestly there should not be any chance of catabolism so you aren't really protecting yourself so much as doing extra credit work. I would put the aminos into an "Above and beyond category" while doing fasting. Not something that has to be done.
    What about when you are in a more serious Calorie restriction. I agree I am not to concerned right now where my calorie restriction is not that serious. Then again there may be no need for seriious calorie restriction....hmmm. (Pinching myself to see if I am actiually awake, can't believe this line of thinking)..
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post
    Thanks Kleen. I have a huge supply of them that I stocked up on so I will just use them until I run out and then try it without to see if I notice any difference.
    Yah I am stocking up too... I will probably use them or around wo's when cutting in any event.
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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