The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    Well, to be honest, I always had trouble losing weight despite eating pretty good (most of the time) and being incredibly active. I heard the "that's just your frame" etc. comments my whole life and pretty much just accepted it for a while. In June of 2009, I started specifically bodybuilding (after almost 10 years of lifting - 4 for baseball and then 6 on my own after ball was over). Since that time, I've spent TONS of time learning/understanding nutrition and living an overall cleaner lifestyle as well as working out like a bodybuilder.

    It was still like pulling teeth just to lose a pound. I was at my best around May of last year and after my first cheat meal in over a month, I couldn't seem to shed that weight back down. My friend suggested I try to bulk for a while as I'd tried to cut for essentially my whole life while lifting. So, I bulked for about 6-7 weeks and put on about 24 lbs (some decent muscle, but obviously a lot of fat). That was at about 3500 cals/day, clean and working out a lot, btw. Since then, I couldn't seem to drop down at all.

    In January, I started a keto diet and calorie cycling. 2-a-day workouts each day, double cardio twice, lifting the other 5 (cardio in AM). After the first 6 lbs or so I lost due to glycogen, I slowly started adding a pound or so every couple days, steadily. I finally gave up because I'd tried everything and I went and had blood tests ran. While researching for them, I thought elevated TSH sounded right and sure enough, that was it.

    So, that's how I found out. I've likely had this my whole life, but just dealt with it (working out, weighing 200+ lbs and eating like 2000 calories/day regularly and not even losing weight).
    Wow, that sounds tremendously frustrating. Thanks for explaining; I just wanted a firsthand account cause Wiki and WebMD are only so useful in identifying the actual experience someone endures that leads to something like hypothyroidism being diagnosed.

    I originally asked because occasionally I'll hear people who have plateaued or incorporated some ****ty methodologies into their routine talk about how they are concerned with hypothyroidism because their fat loss has stalled. It seemed like a knee-jerk reaction on their part to blame the thyroid for lack of progress, but sure enough, most of them were just ****ing up either in diet or training! Thanks again for sharing -- reps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Wow, that sounds tremendously frustrating. Thanks for explaining; I just wanted a firsthand account cause Wiki and WebMD are only so useful in identifying the actual experience someone endures that leads to something like hypothyroidism being diagnosed.

    I originally asked because occasionally I'll hear people who have plateaued or incorporated some ****ty methodologies into their routine talk about how they are concerned with hypothyroidism because their fat loss has stalled. It seemed like a knee-jerk reaction on their part to blame the thyroid for lack of progress, but sure enough, most of them were just ****ing up either in diet or training! Thanks again for sharing -- reps.
    Happy to help.

    I've always been one to say that I was still doing something wrong or not doing something hard enough - so I never wanted to assume this or blame it until I seriously ran out of all ideas and hope.

    I will do annual bloodwork on all of my levels from here on out, though. I advise everyone else does the same. For all the money I poured into supplements, hoping those would help since diet was on point, etc., I could have paid for a ton of tests that would have brought me to the real culprit.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    Happy to help.

    I've always been one to say that I was still doing something wrong or not doing something hard enough - so I never wanted to assume this or blame it until I seriously ran out of all ideas and hope.

    I will do annual bloodwork on all of my levels from here on out, though. I advise everyone else does the same. For all the money I poured into supplements, hoping those would help since diet was on point, etc., I could have paid for a ton of tests that would have brought me to the real culprit.
    Well you look like a beast even with the pitfalls you have had to overcome!
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    This is actually kind of cool because yourself and some others here (JohnRock, Easy) lift early in the AM while I lift quite late in the PM (almost always begin between 7PM and 8PM) and take in all my calories in the hours immediately before sleeping; but even in this scenario the fat is coming off nicely while strength is slowly (but definitively) increasing.
    RedDog, what fasting hours do you keep? I also workout quite late in the evening, but never thought IF would fit.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by rxp1997 View Post
    RedDog, what fasting hours do you keep? I also workout quite late in the evening, but never thought IF would fit.
    Definitely as a matter of fact that would be pretty close to ideal. If you look at the section in the first post where it says 2 meals pre workout, that is the one you would want to follow it is basically like 25% and 25% of your caloric intake the first 2 meals and then 50% of your caloric requirements post training. I think on non training days you would simply put more on your fast breaking meal instead of the post workout meal. However you could easily take 65-70% of your calories post workout. The fact it is close to bed time is not a problem with the intermittent fasting.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html
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  6. about 3 years on IF now. Wouldn't change it.
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    about 3 years on IF now. Wouldn't change it.
    SO Resolve what would you note the biggest differences are between the ADF fasting protocal and the Lean Gains seeing as you have a good bit of experience in both? I see you have migrated to the ADF recently do you foresee you sticking with this or moving back towards the Lean Gains type of IF.

    I know recently you added 4 lbs to your frame without any obvious fat gain how has that held up since going off of the AA product?
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  8. Kleen thanks bud. Been trying a bunch of differnt things. But everytime I get aboiut 2-3 weeks eating real clean, my body lunges out in rage for some unhealthy choices(LOL).
    But this may be a new tool in my arsenal. Ive lost roughly 20 pounds in the last 2 months but seemed to have stalled out a bit. No biggy though. Going to give this a try.

    RECOVERBRO



  9. Quote Originally Posted by rxp1997 View Post
    RedDog, what fasting hours do you keep? I also workout quite late in the evening, but never thought IF would fit.
    I fast from 2-3AM to 8-9PM with about an hour of variance in there from day to day, but it's always at least a 16-hour fast. But my situation might be unique in that I don't start working until after 12PM so I can still get ~8 hours of sleep while staying awake relatively late.

    I usually eat 45% of my calories PostWO, 35% a few hours later, and then enough to satiate me (almost always less than the remaining 15%) before I fall asleep.

    I mean, from what I've experienced this seems to work pretty well for keeping strength and retaining lean mass on a cut; I essentially lift, eat a bunch of food, and then fall asleep!

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    I fast from 2-3AM to 8-9PM with about an hour of variance in there from day to day, but it's always at least a 16-hour fast. But my situation might be unique in that I don't start working until after 12PM so I can still get ~8 hours of sleep while staying awake relatively late.

    I usually eat 45% of my calories PostWO, 35% a few hours later, and then enough to satiate me (almost always less than the remaining 15%) before I fall asleep.

    I mean, from what I've experienced this seems to work pretty well for keeping strength and retaining lean mass on a cut; I essentially lift, eat a bunch of food, and then fall asleep!
    It is a beautiful thing isn't it.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  11. I'm glad you made this thread Kleen. It will help a lot of people learn about this concept and the many benefits of it.

    I am happy that you helped me get on the lean gains, and its hard telling what kind of progress I would have made without it but I know it would be less.

    I would have to check my log but I started this around 4 weeks ago at around 196 at 16+% BF, and my stats now are 183 at 12.6%. Needless to say I'm a firm believer in it, and will stay on it until I can see a reason to change.

    It has gotten so easy to do its almost silly and just natural to eat the 8 hours a day. I seem to appreciate my meals a lot more too. I know how great it is for fat loss, and I just need to test out its abilities with lean body mass. I will do that once I reach my target weight and increase Cal's more for muscle gain.

    I think lean gains is about the closest thing we have to getting the best of both worlds and all that with a lot of freedom in your diet
    Recoverbro Elite
    "This is what we've been working on"

  12. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    SO Resolve what would you note the biggest differences are between the ADF fasting protocal and the Lean Gains seeing as you have a good bit of experience in both? I see you have migrated to the ADF recently do you foresee you sticking with this or moving back towards the Lean Gains type of IF.

    I know recently you added 4 lbs to your frame without any obvious fat gain how has that held up since going off of the AA product?
    ADF fits my current schedule better for one particular reason:
    - my CNS recovers better with 2 shorter training sessions a day, rather than one 2hr session. Between my morning and evening sessions, calories are of utmost importance to keep me from burning out. So I eat a ton on lifting days from dawn til dusk, then fast on recovery days.

    I have used both LG and ADF successfully for both weight gain and fat-loss, the key really is calories. On recovery days, knock 'em really low. Martin reecommends eating only 50% of your lifting day cals and performing fasted cardio as well to boost progress. In my current ADF routine, I usually only a salad or a protein shake before bed, as otherwise I'm too hungry to sleep.

    I was able to "cut" while eating 3800 cals a day, 4days a week. I didn't get into contest ready shape, but my physique changed a LOT in 2 months.
    Bulk Performance Solutions
    --No Proprietary Blends, All Performance--

    ***NOW @ NP***

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    ADF fits my current schedule better for one particular reason:
    - my CNS recovers better with 2 shorter training sessions a day, rather than one 2hr session. Between my morning and evening sessions, calories are of utmost importance to keep me from burning out. So I eat a ton on lifting days from dawn til dusk, then fast on recovery days.

    I have used both LG and ADF successfully for both weight gain and fat-loss, the key really is calories. On recovery days, knock 'em really low. Martin reecommends eating only 50% of your lifting day cals and performing fasted cardio as well to boost progress. In my current ADF routine, I usually only a salad or a protein shake before bed, as otherwise I'm too hungry to sleep.

    I was able to "cut" while eating 3800 cals a day, 4days a week. I didn't get into contest ready shape, but my physique changed a LOT in 2 months.
    Love that, that is kind of what I migrated too automatically through experimentation. I may give the ADF a try for a month or two at some point but for now I am enjoying lean gains.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    ADF fits my current schedule better for one particular reason:
    - my CNS recovers better with 2 shorter training sessions a day, rather than one 2hr session. Between my morning and evening sessions, calories are of utmost importance to keep me from burning out. So I eat a ton on lifting days from dawn til dusk, then fast on recovery days.

    I have used both LG and ADF successfully for both weight gain and fat-loss, the key really is calories. On recovery days, knock 'em really low. Martin reecommends eating only 50% of your lifting day cals and performing fasted cardio as well to boost progress. In my current ADF routine, I usually only a salad or a protein shake before bed, as otherwise I'm too hungry to sleep.

    I was able to "cut" while eating 3800 cals a day, 4days a week. I didn't get into contest ready shape, but my physique changed a LOT in 2 months.
    I'm guessing by recovery days that means any days not lifting...correct? So that would cover cardio only days and rest days both if I understand that correctly
    Recoverbro Elite
    "This is what we've been working on"

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    ADF fits my current schedule better for one particular reason:
    - my CNS recovers better with 2 shorter training sessions a day, rather than one 2hr session. Between my morning and evening sessions, calories are of utmost importance to keep me from burning out. So I eat a ton on lifting days from dawn til dusk, then fast on recovery days.

    I have used both LG and ADF successfully for both weight gain and fat-loss, the key really is calories. On recovery days, knock 'em really low. Martin reecommends eating only 50% of your lifting day cals and performing fasted cardio as well to boost progress. In my current ADF routine, I usually only a salad or a protein shake before bed, as otherwise I'm too hungry to sleep.

    I was able to "cut" while eating 3800 cals a day, 4days a week. I didn't get into contest ready shape, but my physique changed a LOT in 2 months.
    I lost 5 lbs my first week and did not have a big difference in my wd to nwd's 2800 to 2500 what's amazing is I just came off a cut where I was eating only around 2000 cals and doing 4 more hours cardio a week and still did better on this protocol. I don't want to lose any faster than I am now... and it's been very easy. We'll see later though, right now I am coming off the most miraculous week I have seen in 25 years in the sport. I don't want to fug with that....
    Unremarkable is no way to go through life... Doug

  16. I read about this almost a year ago and was really intrigued. Oddly enough, I haven't done it yet mostly because it's terribly inconvenient for my kind of lifestyle. It also seems a little expensive. Still waiting to try it out though. It is perfect in how I work out around 5pm, though.

  17. I actually find it very convenient for eating in the evening and less expensive. I don't have to worry about food until noon, and can eat out with more freedom until 8PM. That covers most of my time. However, lifestyles are all different...
    NeedToBuildMuscle Representative / PowerChews Representative
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  18. resolve, do you have a link or a book for the ADF protocol?

  19. This is very interesting, do you guys have any links that talks extensively on this?

  20. Quote Originally Posted by TheKanezzi View Post
    resolve, do you have a link or a book for the ADF protocol?
    No, I'm making it up as I go, based off what I know about IF.

    Basically:

    Lifting Day = Eat like a god

    Recovery Day = Food? What's that?
    Bulk Performance Solutions
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  21. Quote Originally Posted by taylorgains96 View Post
    This is very interesting, do you guys have any links that talks extensively on this?
    The main principles are here: http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html

    But that blog/site contains tons of articles that delve more specifically into the principles. Kleen's original post also has a bunch of good links in it, or you could just browse around the categories on leangains.com.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    No, I'm making it up as I go, based off what I know about IF.

    Basically:

    Lifting Day = Eat like a god

    Recovery Day = Food? What's that?
    What do your total calories and CHO intake look like on your recovery days Resolve?

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    What do your total calories and CHO intake look like on your recovery days Resolve?
    Well, today was a recovery day. I consumed:

    A large spinach salad with chopped mushrooms and a bit of baked rutabaga crumbled over top. I used some hummus and balsamic vinegar for dressing.
    Topped this with 10oz chicken breast. That's it.

    So...20g carbs? I don't know...


    And I'm bulking right now too
    Bulk Performance Solutions
    --No Proprietary Blends, All Performance--

    ***NOW @ NP***

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    The main principles are here:

    But that blog/site contains tons of articles that delve more specifically into the principles. Kleen's original post also has a bunch of good links in it, or you could just browse around the categories on leangains.com.
    Thanks!

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    Well, today was a recovery day. I consumed:

    A large spinach salad with chopped mushrooms and a bit of baked rutabaga crumbled over top. I used some hummus and balsamic vinegar for dressing.
    Topped this with 10oz chicken breast. That's it.

    So...20g carbs? I don't know...


    And I'm bulking right now too
    Oh wow, so what's the rationale behind cutting calories so severely on rest days? I've heard Berkhan say that protein should stay high even on off days and never caught where he said to drop them real low on rest days. I've only seen his recommendation of roughly 80% of maintenance calories.

    Or is this just an alteration that you've found to be particularly effective or useful through experience?

  26. Great thread Kleen! I've been running IF since last July whether cutting or gaining. It has made eating much simpler for me. I eat starting at 1pm and finish at 9pm with my workouts starting around 5pm. Only positives so far though I still want to shed a few more bodyfat% points. It's so freeing not having to worry about eating every few hours or when I wake up. Thanks Martin!

  27. Ok getting a word in to get subbed, don't have time right now to read it but will sooooon
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  28. Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Oh wow, so what's the rationale behind cutting calories so severely on rest days? I've heard Berkhan say that protein should stay high even on off days and never caught where he said to drop them real low on rest days. I've only seen his recommendation of roughly 80% of maintenance calories.

    Or is this just an alteration that you've found to be particularly effective or useful through experience?
    Martin talks about taking cals real low in his recomp program.

    I don't consider him the be-all/end-all authority on fasting though. I'm gaining weight and strength on my current regimen, but it's still a bit early before I would recommend anyone else try this.. I take leucine throughout my fast.

    It's the same basic premise as LG - don't eat for a while, then eat a lot within a given time frame. I've just lengthened the fast to about 24hr and the eating window to about 12.
    Bulk Performance Solutions
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  29. when u guys are trying to get ur cals in.....on a lifting day lets say, do u jsut eat whatever u want, or do u still try to stick with low carb or "healthier" foods, or do u go hit up mcdonalds lol

  30. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    In for the info
    x2 Great thread!
    Core Nutritionals Representative
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