The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Yah I am pretty much the same but I do add in some calorie dense food for sanity, my choice is frozen yogurt which will have to be cut in latter prep as will all dairy...
    Yougurt, like Greek seems good option! but i don't have it here, at least i don't find it...

    Some dairy food i use sometimes, when i want to bump a little my calories like some cheeses for my gluten-free pizzas


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Yougurt, like Greek seems good option! but i don't have it here, at least i don't find it...

    Some dairy food i use sometimes, when i want to bump a little my calories like some cheeses for my gluten-free pizzas
    Yah ok for off season for me but my skin gets a bit watery with dairy so I will cut it out about 6 weeks before competing...
    Unremarkable is no way to go through life... Doug
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    You could do either one with no ill-effect -- personally, I usually end up taking 2-3 during the fasted period.
    I do the same thing, throw a few down during the fast sporadically with some Universal Liver Tabs. I don't take more than 2 at once with 2 liver tabs though, same thing Kleen said, keep it under 50 calories. I end up taking 4 with my fast breaking meal and another 3-4 later in the day for 10 total on most days.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).

  4. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Today is date day with the wife so we go for lunch. I am not sure where we are going but I have my Titan Protein bar here to kick of the meal and add 26 grams of protein to whatever we eat. Kind of hoping we can go to chipotle and I can get a triple meat burrito bowl. MMMMMMM would get me about 12 oz of chicken and some rice that way. YEP YEP!!!!
    Triple-MEAT.... Yum...yum...yum!!! Good things come in 3's!!!
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  5. Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Yah ok for off season for me but my skin gets a bit watery with dairy so I will cut it out about 6 weeks before competing...
    I understand, everyone is different and most of them will handle the foods in a different way.

    Even with IF, and with the clean carbs i referred i easily come fat if i "overcome". But i'm loving the ideas shared here! NOT GOOD FOR PEOPLE CUTTING

    Quote Originally Posted by oufinny View Post
    I do the same thing, throw a few down during the fast sporadically with some Universal Liver Tabs. I don't take more than 2 at once with 2 liver tabs though, same thing Kleen said, keep it under 50 calories. I end up taking 4 with my fast breaking meal and another 3-4 later in the day for 10 total on most days.
    This is why some guy's try some "pulses" of 10g of peptopro or similar amino's <50kcal, through the day.

    Never tried it, but would like to know results!
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  6. Very interesting concepts in here. I actually just read through the entire 26 pages...that was painful, but enlightening. So I quoted some posts for clarification.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    The fasting protocals seem to vary regarding when to have amino acids. One thing consistently shown is that it takes a few days for your body to begin the signal to start catabolism. The first few days of a fast are actually spent in an increased metabolic rate not a slower one. That does not happend for a few days after the fast begins. In the beginning of the fast the energy expenditure is naturally leaning towards being active to encourage the foraging and hunting. During this time the body feeds on fat. It naturally knows to increase lypolosis, and increase BMR to keep the body active. It takes some time but as the leptin levels begin to deplete the body begins to change its focus to an energy saving mode. This is when the body starts to preserve fat and goes after the muscle. However there is not logical reason to think that a workout done after an overnight fast would have any catabolic effect at all. None of these approaches get anywhere near the point where catabolism is going to be a factor. However the effort people are making with the aminos, and leucine is to stimulate protein synthesis during the training and to supply some substrate to be used during the time of gross underfeeding.

    In my opinion on and ADF you would not have any reason to take Aminos on your training day seeing as to the fact you will be taking in a ton of protein and there will be no shortage of aminos in the blood stream. However adding them into the fasting period to increase some protein synthesis may be useless it is definitely not hurting anything short of our pockets. I will go amino less at some point to test the theory and if not changes in recovery that will be another supplement I drop off my arsenal. Man this is gonna make me rich soon if I keep finding it makes supplements I was using not needed any longer.
    ...
    According to various research articles, MPS can be boosted every two hours by consuming BCAA's, so I don't know why it wouldn't be considered important, especially in a fasted state.

    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/132/10/3219S.short

    http://agro-food-industry.teknoscien...ton_AF2_09.PDF

    http://pubget.com/search?q=authors%3...0E%20Norton%22


    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    I think the role of BCAA is being oversimplified for anti-catabolic purposes. It does a lot more for protein synthesis (keep you building muscle, not just avoid catabolism), as well as other protein expression. Martin mentions:

    "For fasted sessions, ingest 10 g branched chain amino acids (BCAA) shortly prior (5-15 mins) to your training session. This does not count towards the 8-hour feeding window that I advocate post-workout; that starts with your post-workout meal. By ingesting BCAA pre-workout, we can sidestep the increased protein breakdown of fasted training while still reaping the benefits of the increased anabolic response as seen in this study. Not only that, BCAAs actually increase phosphorylation of p70s6k when ingested in the fasted state prior to training. So by training fasted, with BCAA intake prior to sessions, we get a double whammy of increased p70s6k phosphorylation that should create a very favorable environment for muscle growth in the post-workout period. "

    I'd just keep using the BCAA every 2 hours as recommended to keep protein synthesis going.
    This

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    On the lean gains site he has some dishes and recipes. basically that first meal maybe 40-50 grams protein, 35-40 grams carbs, lower fat keep it light and easy to digest is my recommendation. Then the meal after your workout you would want to consume probably 50-60% of your calories in that meal then the rest on your final meal.

    My dinner tonight consisted of about 12 oz worth of lean ground turkey breast in spaghetti sauce no noodles and about 20 green grapes. Happy camper, and tomorrow I get to eat big.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Not going to write up a diet here for you but recommendations. get in 100 grams or more of protein in the meal following your lift. Add another meal. Preferably MORE Post workout, if that means you ad a second post workout meal where you are having the dessert then that is where i would put it.
    ...

    So, I usually workout in the morning at around 9am and get up at about 730ish. I take it that I should have my BCAA's only preworkout. I would need to time my last meal of the previous night to get the IF timing down so that I would then have my first REAL meal immediately post workout say at about 11am. This should consist of mainly easily digestible food sources from mainly protein and carbs. So a protein shake with some PowerCarb would be a good option? (this is for sticking to the diet and for ease of use because I rarely go straight home after my workouts and don't have a microwave at the gym). Then two hours later (if consuming 4 meals in the 8 hour window) or ~three hours later (if consuming 3 meals in the 8 hour window), have my biggest meal of the day consisting of ~50% of my daily caloric intake (in whatever Macro's as long as it fits into my overall daily macro intake goals)? I really want to get this down right because I'm intrigued by it and can only give it a fair shot and be successful with it if I do it correctly. I'm in contest prep now and want to see if this really does work better for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Initial hunger will hit but it only sticks around for maybe 20 minutes max and then goes away for several hours again. If you can just distract yourself during those times it wont be so bad just make yourself think about something other than being hungry and the next thing you know you your aren't hungry any more. I originally thought I would have a lot of trouble waiting until Noon and I workout at 4:30, I just take aminos at 4:15, 6:30, then ever 2.5 or so hours untilI eat at noon or sometimes 1:00 it just depends. It is working well for me. However if it doesn't suit you then a 40-50 grams protein and 50g carbs meal or shake post workout and then begin your feeding window later. May even enable you to start really feeding at 2 or even 4pm.
    That's going to be my biggest challenge. I'm always really really hungry in the morning. Would taking in a pure fiber source, like Metamucil or Myogenix Pro Fiber, with my morning amino shake to curb appetite alter the fasted condition, since these are carbs but aren't quite absorbed the same way? Other appetite suppressants don't do crap for me. I find the best way is to stay busy and keep away from food.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Absolutely Gentlemen! I agree completely. I have no need for the full 8 hour window on most of my rest days. I feel after yesterday I hit the money train with the big 1000 + calorie lunch then having a small meal later in the day. I went about 200 cals over my planned 1500 because I made the family some grilled cheese sandwiches and decided one wouldn't hurt me. Guess what it didn't. However that big meal kept me squared away until about 7 then I had a shake and then the sandwich. Today is an eat day and I am gonna cram in some quality foods today. I am getting ready to do some deads in the garage then wake the wife up to go finish legs of at the gym. I will break my fast after the workout and then it is on!
    So our "rest" days are determined by the days we don't lift or do cardio or either? If so then I only have two rest days a week. Would carb cycling still be effective using this dieting routine and say, make the "rest" days my no carb days?


    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Why not use a combination of fitday and a spreadsheet?
    I use myfitnesspal app for my droid. It's easy to use and effective and allows me to consistently monitor and adjust my macros and caloric intake as the day goes on. I changed the goal setting and adjusted the macros to meet my own specifications.



    My last two questions:
    What about having enough energy to get in a good workout since I do all of my workouts in the morning when I would be at the tailend of my fasted time frame? I already feel weakened in the gym on just "no carb" days. I know some people have said that your body adapts and gets used to it, but I also know that carbs are the body's primary fuel source and I would think that workout quality would suffer because of this.

    Finally, what about GDA's? Would you still use nutrient repartitioner's while on this diet with your carbs?

    Sorry I have so many questions but I really want to get this right. I want to have a really good showing in my next contest and I know diet and conditioning is key so if you could please be detailed and help me understand this I would be greatly appreciative!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    According to various research articles, MPS can be boosted every two hours by consuming BCAA's, so I don't know why it wouldn't be considered important, especially in a fasted state.

    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/132/10/3219S.short

    http://agro-food-industry.teknoscien...ton_AF2_09.PDF

    http://pubget.com/search?q=authors%3...0E%20Norton%22
    Part of the question mark about doing this is whether that is enough in nutrients to take your body out of the fasted state, effectively ruining any growth hormone/insulin sensitivity gains that are a major point of IF.


    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    That's going to be my biggest challenge. I'm always really really hungry in the morning. Would taking in a pure fiber source, like Metamucil or Myogenix Pro Fiber, with my morning amino shake to curb appetite alter the fasted condition, since these are carbs but aren't quite absorbed the same way? Other appetite suppressants don't do crap for me. I find the best way is to stay busy and keep away from food.
    Ever tried caralluma fimbrata based ones? they seem to work well.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    My last two questions:
    What about having enough energy to get in a good workout since I do all of my workouts in the morning when I would be at the tailend of my fasted time frame? I already feel weakened in the gym on just "no carb" days. I know some people have said that your body adapts and gets used to it, but I also know that carbs are the body's primary fuel source and I would think that workout quality would suffer because of this.
    stims. You do get used to it though. I've been doing fasted training for a long time now, but often when I travel for work I end up having to do evening non-fasted workouts. Theres a slight strength difference (higher) when I do that, but either way I continue to see progression.
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    So our "rest" days are determined by the days we don't lift or do cardio or either? If so then I only have two rest days a week. Would carb cycling still be effective using this dieting routine and say, make the "rest" days my no carb days?


    My last two questions:
    What about having enough energy to get in a good workout since I do all of my workouts in the morning when I would be at the tailend of my fasted time frame? I already feel weakened in the gym on just "no carb" days. I know some people have said that your body adapts and gets used to it, but I also know that carbs are the body's primary fuel source and I would think that workout quality would suffer because of this.

    Finally, what about GDA's? Would you still use nutrient repartitioner's while on this diet with your carbs?
    I believe your understanding of "rest days" is correct -- although you could perform some low-intensity work to potentially accelerate fat loss (if necessary).

    Also, I've never really had success with "no-carb" -- the extremely restrictive nature always leads me (and my fellow fitness-minded friends) to a regressive binge or a constant yearning for carbohydrates that is extremely distracting.

    Instead, I do "low-carb" (~75-100g) on rest and low-intensity days and "higher-carb" (250-300g) on weight training days; protein remains relatively constant throughout.

    But if "no-carb" works for you then DO IT! I just haven't seen much long-term success with extremely strict carbohydrate control AND I have seen multiple cases of effective fat loss with the protocol outlined above.

    As for using a nutrient partitioner, I've always used them before/with meals containing a moderate-to-high amount of carbohydrate and have maintained a successful composition. R-ALA (or NP bulk ALA) and Biotin are my regulars since they are widely available and cheap.

  9. Ok first my aplogies, I haven't read the whole thread (just the first and last page)

    But I think a lot of my questions can be answered VERY SUCCINCTLY:

    Can someone post a sample diet for an AM workout?

    that's all. I lift around 10am usually. So I am thinking this means pre-wo Shake and BCAAs, then 11:30 post-WO HUGE meal, then another meal around 3:00 and the last meal around 7:00.

    Kleen/dreamweaver/anyone doing the diet, can you post what you've been doing? I really want to see how the macros vary between the 3 meals in the feeding period.
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  10. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Part of the question mark about doing this is whether that is enough in nutrients to take your body out of the fasted state, effectively ruining any growth hormone/insulin sensitivity gains that are a major point of IF.



    Ever tried caralluma fimbrata based ones? they seem to work well.



    stims. You do get used to it though. I've been doing fasted training for a long time now, but often when I travel for work I end up having to do evening non-fasted workouts. Theres a slight strength difference (higher) when I do that, but either way I continue to see progression.
    As for the IF factor I can see that being a valid point, but if it's only every 2-3 hours of BCAA supplementation with no other intake, then it should (I presume) fall in the "under 50 cals" cutoff point of eliciting such a response. I'm not sure if this is an accurate interpretation though.

    I haven't had caralluma fimbrata but I will check it out, thanks for the head up on it.

    Now, when I read through the initial doublegains leangains article, he stated he ate two hours before his workout. Do you AM workouters do this or do you just do BCAA's pre and then start you first meal as your "easy to digest" post workout meal? I wonder cause I workout at around 9-10 am typically. I absolutely hate mornings and hate getting up any earlier then I have to. Do you AM'ers eat first thing in the morning say, 7 AM then workout at 9AM then do your big second meal at 11 AM and then wrap up the last meal with his proposed slow digesting protein at 1 PM? This leaves alot of the day left in this fasted state, however, I see one potential advantage is that when you're hungriest, you'll be asleep and know that you will wake up to a nice meal! One potential disadvantage is that the evening is when we're typically most likely to snack and have those cravings. I dunno, what do you guys find works best for you? Anybody tried both ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    I believe your understanding of "rest days" is correct -- although you could perform some low-intensity work to potentially accelerate fat loss (if necessary).

    Also, I've never really had success with "no-carb" -- the extremely restrictive nature always leads me (and my fellow fitness-minded friends) to a regressive binge or a constant yearning for carbohydrates that is extremely distracting.

    Instead, I do "low-carb" (~75-100g) on rest and low-intensity days and "higher-carb" (250-300g) on weight training days; protein remains relatively constant throughout.

    But if "no-carb" works for you then DO IT! I just haven't seen much long-term success with extremely strict carbohydrate control AND I have seen multiple cases of effective fat loss with the protocol outlined above.

    As for using a nutrient partitioner, I've always used them before/with meals containing a moderate-to-high amount of carbohydrate and have maintained a successful composition. R-ALA (or NP bulk ALA) and Biotin are my regulars since they are widely available and cheap.
    As for the no carb, I'm meaning only on the no carb days of a typical carb cycle or is that trying to integrate too much into the program? I'm not sure if it would have an added benefit in conjunction with LG/IF diet.

    I do use nutrient repartitioners as well, just wanted to make sure there wasn't some reason not too on this diet! Thanks for taking the time to reply, this diet is SO new to me and I'm already dead set on trying it.
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    Ok first my aplogies, I haven't read the whole thread (just the first and last page)

    But I think a lot of my questions can be answered VERY SUCCINCTLY:

    Can someone post a sample diet for an AM workout?

    that's all. I lift around 10am usually. So I am thinking this means pre-wo Shake and BCAAs, then 11:30 post-WO HUGE meal, then another meal around 3:00 and the last meal around 7:00.

    Kleen/dreamweaver/anyone doing the diet, can you post what you've been doing? I really want to see how the macros vary between the 3 meals in the feeding period.
    It depends, but keeping what you purpose it makes a difference if you want to WO fasted, or not.

    So fasted:

    9am cup coffee

    10am train + intraWO aminoAcids

    11.30am 60% of caloric intake of the day most of starchy carbs + lean protein
    (can be oats and whey after + sweet potatoes and chicken as a solid meal)

    3pm 20% of intake, based on some fruits (berries!) + good fats (EVOO, coco oil or nuts) + protein source

    7pm 20% intake, fat protein source as salmon or beef + green veggies unlimited + EVOO

    This is an example.

    If you don't want to workout fasted, as i actually prefer to use some carbs peri-workout, you can use 10% of total daily intake pre-intra and the HUGE meal of 50% of total calories.

    This lifestyle is easily adjustable!
  12. Nevermind on my previous questions!


    Well, I just spent the last four hours (and several more earlier) reading through all of leangains. Funny thing was...I had that site bookmarked already! I had done it for future reading as I found it to be very interesting but never really got into it. I got all my answers pretty much solved by reading just about every article on that site and others.

    As for my AM routine I was asking about...well here it was:

    "Protocol needed: Fasted Training (see the Leangains Guide for details).

    We're going to assume that you're at the gym at 10 AM and break your fast at 12-1 PM.

    10 AM: Training is initiated on an empty stomach and after ingestion of 10 g BCAA or similar amino acid mixture. This "pre-workout" meal is not counted towards the feeding phase.

    *For fasted sessions, ingest 10 g branched chain amino acids (BCAA) shortly prior (5-15 mins) to your training session. This does not count towards the 8-hour feeding window that I advocate post-workout; that starts with your post-workout meal. By ingesting BCAA pre-workout, we can sidestep the increased protein breakdown of fasted training while still reaping the benefits of the increased anabolic response as seen in this study. Not only that, BCAAs actually increase phosphorylation of p70s6k when ingested in the fasted state prior to training. So by training fasted, with BCAA intake prior to sessions, we get a double whammy of increased p70s6k phosphorylation that should create a very favorable environment for muscle growth in the post-workout period.
    “The researchers concluded that "Our results indicate that prior fasting may stimulate the intramyocellular anabolic response to ingestion of a carbohydrate/protein/leucine mixture following a heavy resistance training session. "
    http://www.leangains.com/2009/12/fas...le-growth.html


    10-11 AM: Weight Training: I suggest using a setup similar to reverse pyramid training, which is my favored approach. This is a high intensity, low volume setup. Keeping intensity high is key in order to reap the catecholamine-related benefits. Do 2-3 sets of 4-8 reps for compound movements and 1-2 sets of 8-10 reps for assistance movements (curls, triceps work, etc). Do no more than 5 movements per session.

    11-12 AM: When you're done, which should be in no more than an hour, insulin (which was temporarily elevated by the pre-workout BCAAs) will be back to fasted baseline again. Immediately take 0.2 mg yohimbine and do 30-45 min of steady state cardio; cycling, treadmill walking at 3-3.5 mph (slight incline optional), brisk walking outside, etc. The yohimbine will rapidly take effect.

    12-1 PM: Eat."



    He also stated to drink BCAA's every two hours after your workout during the feeding time...so incorporating this into the MPS max stimulatory window (as described by Layne Norton previously quoted in my second or so post up with the reference included) I have come up with this for the 8 hour window from my understanding of what it entails in conjunction with Mark's teachings.


    Ramp down carbs with each meal.

    -Meal 1: High protein, high carbs, no/low fat (also the biggest meal and is the post workout meal)

    -BCAA’s

    -Meal 2: High protein, med/low carbs, med fat

    -BCAA’s

    -Meal 3: High protein, no/low carbs, med/high fat

    No processed junk food
    Relatively high intake of protein all the time
    Higher carb / lower fat on workout days
    Higher fat / lower carb on rest days

    +20% of caloric intake above BMR on training days
    -20% of caloric intake below BMR on resting (or low to moderate cardio for increased fat burning) days


    *Now for his given food selection ideas:

    LEAN GAINS FOOD SELECTION:
    http://freetheanimal.com/2010/12/lea...-approach.html


    REST DAY MEALS:
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/leangains-meals.html


    POST WORKOUT MEALS:
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/08/int...-part-two.html

    It was also apparent that he was NOT a proponent of nuts or dried fruit (from him saying so on LG).


    Anybody have any more leangain meals?
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  13. I have a lot of recipes...

    But i'm a very restrict guy related to food choices... :S

    As an example non-workout day biggest meal - Healthy Garfield Lasagna

    - Zucchini (to make the 2 layers, bottom and middle)
    - tomato (to make the sauce)
    - ground beef 50% and ground chicken 50%
    - cottage cheese (substitute sour cream)
    - fat-free mozzarella oursimilar shredded

    Just do 1 layer of zuchinni, put the half the cottage, plus half the meats cooked with favorite spices and tomato, another layer and repeat. At the top put some shredded cheese to cover.

    Quantities depends on the goals.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    Ok first my aplogies, I haven't read the whole thread (just the first and last page)

    But I think a lot of my questions can be answered VERY SUCCINCTLY:

    Can someone post a sample diet for an AM workout?

    that's all. I lift around 10am usually. So I am thinking this means pre-wo Shake and BCAAs, then 11:30 post-WO HUGE meal, then another meal around 3:00 and the last meal around 7:00.

    Kleen/dreamweaver/anyone doing the diet, can you post what you've been doing? I really want to see how the macros vary between the 3 meals in the feeding period.
    Hey glad you decided to jump in, you'll be a valuable addition... first of all don't over think it, Lean Gains is quite forgiving, that being said I personally do a 50 30 20 PCF on workout days and 50 20 30 on nwd's. These are simply good macros for me being carb senstive... Now on wd's I only take in about 20% of my calories (maybe a bit more). This meal is mostly protein as I don't have a lot of carbs really and I save that for my big meal after workout. I train in the late afternoon so I am taking my pw shake at around 6pm and eating my big meal at 7pm (it doesn't matter how many meals just get the cals in). This meal has heavy duty protein and carbs and contains most of my cals, I add in some calorie dense stuff as it is quite a bit for one meal but it's mostly pretty clean and very satisfying..

    NWD's I take in about 35-40% of my calories in with my fast breaking meal. Lots of protein some fat and carbs. I have another meal around 5pm and another 8pm the 5pm meal is about another 40% and the 8pm the remaining 20% but no carbs...

    Now an option you might want to take is extending the fast till 4-5pm on nwd's if the cals are low from a bigger swing. I am currently using a smaller swing as I workout later in the day and need more nutrition the next day than most.

    Hope this helps, Chris trans am so he will be able to elaborate more on that...
    Unremarkable is no way to go through life... Doug

  15. Unreal, if I was you I would train fasted unless you are completely against that idea. That way when you are done with your workout, you can have a huge meal and will feel full and satiated for the next 2-4 hours depending on when you got up that day. The days I work out in the AM fasted I follow it up with easily 16-20 ozs of meat, not super picky if it is lean or not, about 100+ grams of carbs and maybe some fruit. If you don't want to eat that much meat, throw down a cup or more of cottage cheese. I vary my food choices up and I only measure out my carbs as I have to watch them, even with lean gains. All of what I eat is based on how I feel, I have not counted cals at all on lean gains and see body comp changes every few days, it really works that fast. Lots of great information on the website and after the first few days, your stomach is used to the BIG meals for fast breaking and you will be surprised how not hungry you are later in the day. Curious how it goes for you as we all know your training expertise is second to none.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).

  16. Unreal, here's my macro breakdown for a typical day:

    Pre-workout: 3 Scoops Protocol + Mesomorph + a couple of protein bars if I'm starving

    Post-workout: 80g Whey, 1Cup ground oats, 1/4C rice flour (80g protein + ~80g cho)
    PPW: 100g Prot, 100g Cho
    Meal 2: 100g Prot, 60g Fat
    Meal 3: same as 2
    Snack: more fat and protein as appetite dictates.

    So all together, my macros are around 300-400g Prot, 200g Cho, 100-200g Fat.
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  17. Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    So our "rest" days are determined by the days we don't lift or do cardio or either? If so then I only have two rest days a week. Would carb cycling still be effective using this dieting routine and say, make the "rest" days my no carb days?

    My last two questions:
    What about having enough energy to get in a good workout since I do all of my workouts in the morning when I would be at the tailend of my fasted time frame? I already feel weakened in the gym on just "no carb" days. I know some people have said that your body adapts and gets used to it, but I also know that carbs are the body's primary fuel source and I would think that workout quality would suffer because of this.

    Finally, what about GDA's? Would you still use nutrient repartitioner's while on this diet with your carbs?
    I refer to rest days and cardio only days as one and the same. I am actually now just referring to the even more generically as Burn and Build days. Just basically calling them by their function and leaving it at that. So from now on you will see me refer to them as Burn and Build days.

    I can understand being tired in the mornings and needing to get the CNS used to getting up and kicking ass imediately but there is not any carbohydrate issue training in the AM unless you simply did not have any carbs recently. Muscle tissue is very greedy. It will take up all the blood sugar when it needs to feed itself however you can have completely full muscles and your blood sugar be very low. You muscle will not give up the glycogen to be used in other tissues. It holds onto that glycogen until used by the muscle via relatively intense activity. You spend your fasting time in a hormonally induced state of lipolosys, burning fat for energy while preserving muscle. That while doing only light activity or resting so you are not really tapping into those glycogen stores just burning fat. SO there is plenty of glycogen stored up in the muscle after an overnight fast to have a good workout or even a carb free Burn day plus an overnight fast for that matter.

    The problem is not with low blood sugar levels, it is with the CNS not being conditioned to fire that intensely in the morning. You just have to keep at it and retrain your CNS to run on all 8 cylanders first thing in the morning.


    Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    Ok first my aplogies, I haven't read the whole thread (just the first and last page)

    But I think a lot of my questions can be answered VERY SUCCINCTLY:

    Can someone post a sample diet for an AM workout?

    that's all. I lift around 10am usually. So I am thinking this means pre-wo Shake and BCAAs, then 11:30 post-WO HUGE meal, then another meal around 3:00 and the last meal around 7:00.

    Kleen/dreamweaver/anyone doing the diet, can you post what you've been doing? I really want to see how the macros vary between the 3 meals in the feeding period.
    It looks like you have it about nailed. The pre workout shake would actually only be about 8-10 grams of aminos. Then you could start your post workout meal at 11:30, or if you want to eat until a little later in the evening delay it a little. I like to eat until around 8 so I do mine typically around Noon sometimes even 1 PM. I will give you some basic macros I shoot for in the meals but it honestly varies depending on my wants.

    Build Day -
    4AM 8 g aminos pre - 4:30-5:30 workout 5:30-5:45 sauna. Cuz I like it!
    6AM 8 g aminos post
    10-11 AM More aminos
    12-1 Fast breaker - 100 grams protien minimum, 100-150 carbs
    Meal 2 sometime between 2:30-4:30 75 protein 75-100 grams of carbs
    Meal 3 between 7-8PM 75-100 grams protein 30grams of it being from 1 cup fat free cottage cheese, 50 grams carbs

    For fat I am not overly concerned. I choose relatively lean cuts of meat and focus on protein content. I just keep a tally going regarding the carbs and protein and at the end of the day adjust by adding some extra fat if needed via fish oil and almonds. On lower body days I range from about 3000-3500 calories, depending on how I am looking, and on upper body days 2700-3000.

    Burn Day - At first I started just breaking fast at my normal time. Then as it became easier and easier and I learned the biochemistry behind what is happening with my body I started extending the fast. Extending the fast only increases the amount of fat lost without causing any catabolism so you can eat as limited calories as you want on a fast day and not lose any muscle mass. Hormonally your body is set to spare protein and burn fat for energy during the fast so I take full advantage of it. I keep my high end of calories at 1800 occasionally I will go ever but normally I end up under in the 1000-1500 range.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    Now, when I read through the initial doublegains leangains article, he stated he ate two hours before his workout. Do you AM workouters do this or do you just do BCAA's pre and then start you first meal as your "easy to digest" post workout meal? I wonder cause I workout at around 9-10 am typically. I absolutely hate mornings and hate getting up any earlier then I have to. Do you AM'ers eat first thing in the morning say, 7 AM then workout at 9AM then do your big second meal at 11 AM and then wrap up the last meal with his proposed slow digesting protein at 1 PM? This leaves alot of the day left in this fasted state, however, I see one potential advantage is that when you're hungriest, you'll be asleep and know that you will wake up to a nice meal! One potential disadvantage is that the evening is when we're typically most likely to snack and have those cravings. I dunno, what do you guys find works best for you? Anybody tried both ways?



    As for the no carb, I'm meaning only on the no carb days of a typical carb cycle or is that trying to integrate too much into the program? I'm not sure if it would have an added benefit in conjunction with LG/IF diet.

    I do use nutrient repartitioners as well, just wanted to make sure there wasn't some reason not too on this diet! Thanks for taking the time to reply, this diet is SO new to me and I'm already dead set on trying it.
    Lower carb on Burn days is automatic if you think about it. YOu cut your calories by 35% you are gonna cut your carbs by 35% even if you keep your macros the same. However he doesn't tout low carb anywhere and says only people carb sensitive people should worry about it. On a low carb day in LG you may say cut carbs in half from 400 to 200, it is really very personal and dependant on your carb tolerance. I have fouind my carb tolerance has increased by about 75-100 grams of carbs per day in general just because of the benefits of insulin sensitivity in the muscle tissue.

    Remember insulin sensitivty in muscle changes relatively easily, it lowers with increases exposure, and increases quickly when not exposed to high amounts. However fat just keeps on storing as steady as a locomotive in the presence of insulin. So for those of us who are carb sensitive basically that means our insulin receptors are still sensitive in fat cells but have lost sensitivity in the muscle cells. This fasting has changed that around for me. My sensitivity in my muscle cells have actually increased quite a bit making them the main store for energy instead of fat tissue. Allowing me to increase my carb intake and have the glycogen stored in the muscle as opposed to ending up in fat cells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    It depends, but keeping what you purpose it makes a difference if you want to WO fasted, or not.

    So fasted:

    9am cup coffee

    10am train + intraWO aminoAcids

    11.30am 60% of caloric intake of the day most of starchy carbs + lean protein
    (can be oats and whey after + sweet potatoes and chicken as a solid meal)

    3pm 20% of intake, based on some fruits (berries!) + good fats (EVOO, coco oil or nuts) + protein source

    7pm 20% intake, fat protein source as salmon or beef + green veggies unlimited + EVOO

    This is an example.

    If you don't want to workout fasted, as i actually prefer to use some carbs peri-workout, you can use 10% of total daily intake pre-intra and the HUGE meal of 50% of total calories.

    This lifestyle is easily adjustable!
    Exactly. I like this I kind of do about the same from 50-60% in fast breaking meal then I split the rest between to meals or just have one more really big meal. It just depends on timing.

    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Hey glad you decided to jump in, you'll be a valuable addition... first of all don't over think it, Lean Gains is quite forgiving, that being said I personally do a 50 30 20 PCF on workout days and 50 20 30 on nwd's. These are simply good macros for me being carb senstive... Now on wd's I only take in about 20% of my calories (maybe a bit more). This meal is mostly protein as I don't have a lot of carbs really and I save that for my big meal after workout. I train in the late afternoon so I am taking my pw shake at around 6pm and eating my big meal at 7pm (it doesn't matter how many meals just get the cals in). This meal has heavy duty protein and carbs and contains most of my cals, I add in some calorie dense stuff as it is quite a bit for one meal but it's mostly pretty clean and very satisfying..

    NWD's I take in about 35-40% of my calories in with my fast breaking meal. Lots of protein some fat and carbs. I have another meal around 5pm and another 8pm the 5pm meal is about another 40% and the 8pm the remaining 20% but no carbs...

    Now an option you might want to take is extending the fast till 4-5pm on nwd's if the cals are low from a bigger swing. I am currently using a smaller swing as I workout later in the day and need more nutrition the next day than most.

    Hope this helps, Chris trans am so he will be able to elaborate more on that...
    As he said I do the fasting longer on my Burn days. I pretty much follow the Lean Gains fasted training protocol that was posted about a page back.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  18. Regarding pushing the fast beyond the ~16 hour mark, MB said that "while FFA oxidation increases the longer time you spend in the fasted state, the contribution of fatty acids to whole body fat oxidation changes." (http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/int...born-body.html)

    He then goes on to say that fat burning continues through and past the 12-18 hour fast point, but the farther your push it, "the oxidation of intramuscular fat increases greatly, but no increase is seen in subcutaneous fat. Subcutaneous fat simply can't keep up with demand, so you're playing a game of diminishing returns if you push the fast too long. Coupled with the escalating rate of de novo gluconeogenesis, and subsequent risk of muscle catabolism, fasting for too long may not be very conducive for a lean individual seeking optimal lean mass retention while targeting stubborn body fat." (http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/int...born-body.html)

    I know none of us are really fasting for crazy periods of time, but I get the impression that he set up the 16-hour fast for specific, scientific reasons. From his discourse, it sounds like anything beyond this period (or 18 hours if you wanted to push it) may, as he put it, have you "playing a game of diminishing returns."

    Just a refresher/reminder of the science behind the 16-hour rationale and that more isn't always better -- but again, everything is highly subjective and we all have our dietary tweaks that are highly customized and individualized.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Regarding pushing the fast beyond the ~16 hour mark, MB said that "while FFA oxidation increases the longer time you spend in the fasted state, the contribution of fatty acids to whole body fat oxidation changes." (http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/int...born-body.html)

    He then goes on to say that fat burning continues through and past the 12-18 hour fast point, but the farther your push it, "the oxidation of intramuscular fat increases greatly, but no increase is seen in subcutaneous fat. Subcutaneous fat simply can't keep up with demand, so you're playing a game of diminishing returns if you push the fast too long. Coupled with the escalating rate of de novo gluconeogenesis, and subsequent risk of muscle catabolism, fasting for too long may not be very conducive for a lean individual seeking optimal lean mass retention while targeting stubborn body fat." (http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/int...born-body.html)

    I know none of us are really fasting for crazy periods of time, but I get the impression that he set up the 16-hour fast for specific, scientific reasons. From his discourse, it sounds like anything beyond this period (or 18 hours if you wanted to push it) may, as he put it, have you "playing a game of diminishing returns."

    Just a refresher/reminder of the science behind the 16-hour rationale and that more isn't always better -- but again, everything is highly subjective and we all have our dietary tweaks that are highly customized and individualized.
    You did a good research, but start reading more about ADF, alternate day fasting with 36h fasting.

    This was were Marting began. It was 1-2 days week, and then why not use an approach eveyday?

    Most of the studies are WITH ADF. I prefer EVERYDAY 16/8, but does not means 36h fast + 36h feed, does not work

  20. I'm intrigued by the idea of extending the fast on a burn day, but I'm a little on the fence about it. I could physically do it, but I am a little scared to do it just because it seems catabolic if you go real long. I've extended past a couple hours, but not beyond that.
    Recoverbro Elite
    "This is what we've been working on"

  21. Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    Ok first my aplogies, I haven't read the whole thread (just the first and last page)

    But I think a lot of my questions can be answered VERY SUCCINCTLY:

    Can someone post a sample diet for an AM workout?

    that's all. I lift around 10am usually. So I am thinking this means pre-wo Shake and BCAAs, then 11:30 post-WO HUGE meal, then another meal around 3:00 and the last meal around 7:00.

    Kleen/dreamweaver/anyone doing the diet, can you post what you've been doing? I really want to see how the macros vary between the 3 meals in the feeding period.
    Wow unreal back from the dead. IMO it would bbe better to workout fasted than take bcaas aafter till 12 to start feasting. I just try to avoid breaking fast pre workout unless workout is late enough for me to get a good big solid preworkiut meal.

    I know this post is filled with spelling errors but im buzzing lol

  22. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    ...
    Thanks for the responses! Today was my first full day on LG. I got to the gym a bit later then I would have liked so I ended up doing LEGS on 19 hour fasted state (with just the pre BCAA's). It wasn't as bad as I feared but this is definitely going to need some getting used to. At the end of my workout my stomach was in knots in hunger pains, and then choking down all that food post workout was a chore! The 8 hour window now seems so small with condensing all my food that I've spaced out over the entire day for years. I feel bloated and my stomach is distended and hurts but I hit my same macros. Round two tomorrow!
    Serious Nutrition Solutions rep

  23. Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    Thanks for the responses! Today was my first full day on LG. I got to the gym a bit later then I would have liked so I ended up doing LEGS on 19 hour fasted state (with just the pre BCAA's). It wasn't as bad as I feared but this is definitely going to need some getting used to. At the end of my workout my stomach was in knots in hunger pains, and then choking down all that food post workout was a chore! The 8 hour window now seems so small with condensing all my food that I've spaced out over the entire day for years. I feel bloated and my stomach is distended and hurts but I hit my same macros. Round two tomorrow!
    Your body will adjust and it does get much easier in time.
    Recoverbro Elite
    "This is what we've been working on"

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Regarding pushing the fast beyond the ~16 hour mark, MB said that "while FFA oxidation increases the longer time you spend in the fasted state, the contribution of fatty acids to whole body fat oxidation changes." (http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/int...born-body.html)

    He then goes on to say that fat burning continues through and past the 12-18 hour fast point, but the farther your push it, "the oxidation of intramuscular fat increases greatly, but no increase is seen in subcutaneous fat. Subcutaneous fat simply can't keep up with demand, so you're playing a game of diminishing returns if you push the fast too long. Coupled with the escalating rate of de novo gluconeogenesis, and subsequent risk of muscle catabolism, fasting for too long may not be very conducive for a lean individual seeking optimal lean mass retention while targeting stubborn body fat." (http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/int...born-body.html)

    I know none of us are really fasting for crazy periods of time, but I get the impression that he set up the 16-hour fast for specific, scientific reasons. From his discourse, it sounds like anything beyond this period (or 18 hours if you wanted to push it) may, as he put it, have you "playing a game of diminishing returns."

    Just a refresher/reminder of the science behind the 16-hour rationale and that more isn't always better -- but again, everything is highly subjective and we all have our dietary tweaks that are highly customized and individualized.
    Oh for sure he has his reasoning behind his eating and fasting split. As far as the fat oxidation of sub-q not increasing beyond the 16-18 mark even though more fat overall is burtned is not really a detraction for me. I do not mind losing visceral fat, it makes the waist line much smaller and muscles look harder. I am not a fan of the turtle shell look where you can see abs even though the stomach is distended but I can get that way easily because I store a lot of visceral or intramuscular fat. Sure it can make a muscle look a little fuller, but also softer and less defined. I don't mind losing it at an increased rate. Of course I am not lean enough to worry about it at this point maybe around 7% I may find I need to eat earlier to preserve muscle mass and then I will for sure. As of right now I am still gaining LBM while losing fat so I am happy with the adjustment. I have read a lot on the ADF and although I don't feel like completely limiting myself to one tiny meal on burn days I understand I am at no risk of muscle loss that day by extending my fast over 20 hours while increasing the overall fat burned. For me that is a positive.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  25. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Oh for sure he has his reasoning behind his eating and fasting split. As far as the fat oxidation of sub-q not increasing beyond the 16-18 mark even though more fat overall is burtned is not really a detraction for me. I do not mind losing visceral fat, it makes the waist line much smaller and muscles look harder. I am not a fan of the turtle shell look where you can see abs even though the stomach is distended but I can get that way easily because I store a lot of visceral or intramuscular fat. Sure it can make a muscle look a little fuller, but also softer and less defined. I don't mind losing it at an increased rate. Of course I am not lean enough to worry about it at this point maybe around 7% I may find I need to eat earlier to preserve muscle mass and then I will for sure. As of right now I am still gaining LBM while losing fat so I am happy with the adjustment. I have read a lot on the ADF and although I don't feel like completely limiting myself to one tiny meal on burn days I understand I am at no risk of muscle loss that day by extending my fast over 20 hours while increasing the overall fat burned. For me that is a positive.
    I agree with Kleen here for myself anyway. I too don't mind losing visceral fat. I would rather be skinnier, leaner, & lighter with that very hard dry look, vs. a bulkier appearance. I love all the science behind all this, this is an excellent thread and I'm learning more than I ever thought I could learn about IF and Lean Gains, etc. Good Stuff!!!
    Dr. Albert Scott Representative for FINAFLEX
    www.finaflex.com
    Redefine Yourself..... REDEFINE EVERYTHING!

  26. Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    I agree with Kleen here for myself anyway. I too don't mind losing visceral fat. I would rather be skinnier, leaner, & lighter with that very hard dry look, vs. a bulkier appearance. I love all the science behind all this, this is an excellent thread and I'm learning more than I ever thought I could learn about IF and Lean Gains, etc. Good Stuff!!!

    Couldnt have said it better myself. I have found that I enjoy being Lean way more than being as big as I can. I am totally cool with adding muscle in a little at a time as long as I can stay lean, and Lean Gains may be that answer I was looking for to achieve that. The science makes a lot of sense and if anything the freedom in the diet makes it worth it on face value alone for me when trying to cut weight. From this point forward I will do my damndest to try and stay no higher than 10% while trying to add in muscle. No more huge cuts for me!!

    Lean Gains may not be for everyone, but I think there are more people that can find success with this type of diet than with some of the others just because it is easier to stick with IMO. And as we all know, the diet that works is the one that you stick with.
    Recoverbro Elite
    "This is what we've been working on"

  27. Quote Originally Posted by RickRock13 View Post
    Couldnt have said it better myself. I have found that I enjoy being Lean way more than being as big as I can. I am totally cool with adding muscle in a little at a time as long as I can stay lean, and Lean Gains may be that answer I was looking for to achieve that. The science makes a lot of sense and if anything the freedom in the diet makes it worth it on face value alone for me when trying to cut weight. From this point forward I will do my damndest to try and stay no higher than 10% while trying to add in muscle. No more huge cuts for me!!

    Lean Gains may not be for everyone, but I think there are more people that can find success with this type of diet than with some of the others just because it is easier to stick with IMO. And as we all know, the diet that works is the one that you stick with.
    Definitely prefer being lean - and that is the focus right now, everything else secondary. The great thing about eating this way (since, as I mentioned earlier, after reading more about Lean Gains, realize that this is pretty much what I do now) is that it's easy to get and stay lean (for example, last week I lost 1.1% bodyfat in ~5 days), but not just that, in recomping as well (for example, this week I gained 1.2 pounds, but decreased body composition by 0.1%, for a gain of 1.2044 pounds lean mass and loss of 0.0044 pounds bodyfat)! It's also what works best for MY body - just have to see results of the last two weeks to know it

    ~Rosie~
    Contact Me for INDIVIDUALIZED TRAINING AND NUTRITION

    "Think like a Champion. Train like a Warrior. Live with a Purpose." - Rosie Chee

  28. Ah, I see what everyone is saying -- good call, and I definitely agree that there's nothing bad about oxidizing non-subcutaneous fat.

    But the quotes in my last post have MB referring to an increase in oxidation specifically within intramuscular fat -- not visceral fat -- which I understand to be two distinct variations of adipose (they are differentiated in studies like this --> http://www.ohamdy.com/metabolic%20obesity.pdf). [Essentially, fat stored around and between organs vs. fat dispersed throughout skeletal tissue.] Not that reducing intramuscular fat is bad in any way since it might ultimately be problematic regarding insulin resistance (http://www.enotes.com/topic/Intramuscular_fat).

    Also, I'm definitely not saying that the rate of visceral fat oxidation won't increase as we extend fasts beyond ~16 hours (I don't think I've come across studies saying either way). My original goal was to just highlight that he considers gluconeogenesis via animo acids a potential detriment in extended fasts -- a note that might help those new to LG/IF shy away from pushing it too far. But beyond that limited concern, pretty much any type of fat oxidation (regardless of source) still helps us out!

  29. Also, 1000th post -- just wanted it to be in a thread I really like!

  30. Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Also, 1000th post -- just wanted it to be in a thread I really like!

    No doubt...this thread is full of win!!
    Recoverbro Elite
    "This is what we've been working on"
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