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    I don't see it being hard to take in 4000-4500 calories in the 8 hour window.
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    I take in 4100 in a 8 hour window no problem on w/o days
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I don't see it being hard to take in 4000-4500 calories in the 8 hour window.

    after i break my fast its pretty hard not to break calorie limits.

    during that first meal i tear some food up! its hard to stop lol
    For me, the action IS the juice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I don't see it being hard to take in 4000-4500 calories in the 8 hour window.
    I don't see it being difficult either. I mean I can easily take in 2k+ just in the fast breaking meal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I don't see it being hard to take in 4000-4500 calories in the 8 hour window.
    Absolutely. I can (and often) do that in a single meal - and I did on Saturday night!

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    Oh yea, I my refeed days! 5000 cals in one meal is not hard at all haha!
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    I don't say it is hard. I love IF, one year following it gives me that result.

    When someone want to increase results he will need more slin for that, as is the more anabolic hormone of the body. Is no new for anyone here. What i meant to say was, sporadic shorting on the fast period will benefit for more insulin liberation that can lead to more muscle, and if not careful to more fat. I'm talking about optimization, but i'm a high frequency trainee so maybe this make things different.

    I make an home made "gluten-free" pizza saturday, that have at leat 3k calorie of no junk food. This was my first meal of the day that i can eat without problems, so believe eating is not a problem for me!

    ---PS: addition the recipe

    Crust: 200g almond flour, 80g shredded cheese low fat, 30g coconut oil, pinch of salt, 2 eggs. Goes to oven until good texture.

    Topping: 250g tuna, 100g shrimp, 200g tomato, oregano, salt, garlic, 50g shredded cheese.

    i think i don't forgot nothing, but after these i still ingest 3 muffins gluten free too lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Ain't it groovy I mean almost 3 lbs of muscle gained in 12 days with 2 lbs of fat loss. That is awesome even being on a mild PH. I am big right now though. Holiday eating and all. I have filled up quite a bit since those Saturday morning readings.
    I am dropping fat faster than I ever have and it's just plain simple. When I start the EPI-V I may just add a couple hundred cals on wd's (all protein likely). Hek if I opt for the worlds in December I may be able to squeeze in a lean bulker!! What kind of calories would I have to shovel in then!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    I am dropping fat faster than I ever have and it's just plain simple. When I start the EPI-V I may just add a couple hundred cals on wd's (all protein likely). Hek if I opt for the worlds in December I may be able to squeeze in a lean bulker!! What kind of calories would I have to shovel in then!!
    I can't wait to see how lean you end up... When is your plan to start the EPI-V?
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    Interesting Sik, hadn't thought of it in that way. So you think that the added meals will allow for more insulin to build muscle. However did you consider the difference in insulin sensitivity, or the fact that glucagon increases lipolsys during the fast while also increasing the insulin sensitivity in skeletal muscle? To remove exposure of the muscle cells to the glucagon for extended periods would lower insulin sensitivity or keep it from being as elevated as it would be with the 16 hour fast. Also, the more time that blood sugar is floating around increasing insulin production would also lower insulin sensitivity. So I am not sure that there would be any benefit to removing 4 hours from the fasting window if Lean Gains is the goal as opposed to just gains on the scale.

    I don't have the intention of ever "Bulking" again. Once I hit a nice lean level I will be "lean gaining" up to the size I am looking for then switching to recomp to build the muscle up while leaning out at the same weight.

    Now if on a cycle or something that is different. I expect to gain with the speed of a bulk however not gain fat, as I am doing now.

    Not saying you are incorrect either. A year of eating this way you should have some insight into this for sure. However from what I know and understand about how the body deals with the fast, and refeed. As well as what hormonal changes come along with or drive that situation and I can't really see how it would benefit body composition or the ability to grow muscle if the only factor being changed was using a 12 hour fast and 12 hour feed window.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    I can't wait to see how lean you end up... When is your plan to start the EPI-V?
    It's looking like mid July right now...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    It's looking like mid July right now...
    Sounds good Brotha, be sure to send me that link and I will be SUBd from day one!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    Sounds good Brotha, be sure to send me that link and I will be SUBd from day one!!!
    Oh yah you will get advanced warning lol I like to plan ahead and will have all my ducks in a row at least a week ahead of time if not more...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Oh yah you will get advanced warning lol I like to plan ahead and will have all my ducks in a row at least a week ahead of time if not more...
    Awesome Bro... as always, You da MAN!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    Awesome Bro... as always, You da MAN!
    Thanks and a very obssesvie one
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Interesting Sik, hadn't thought of it in that way. So you think that the added meals will allow for more insulin to build muscle. However did you consider the difference in insulin sensitivity, or the fact that glucagon increases lipolsys during the fast while also increasing the insulin sensitivity in skeletal muscle? To remove exposure of the muscle cells to the glucagon for extended periods would lower insulin sensitivity or keep it from being as elevated as it would be with the 16 hour fast. Also, the more time that blood sugar is floating around increasing insulin production would also lower insulin sensitivity. So I am not sure that there would be any benefit to removing 4 hours from the fasting window if Lean Gains is the goal as opposed to just gains on the scale.
    Yes i consider differences in insulin sensitivity. You can increase the sensitivity through weight trainning, calories/carb cycling, etc and through fasting. What i'm saying is that sometimes will be better to use an example of 4 meals a day, with only 12h fast instead of overeating in REAL CLEAN food.

    If someone follow this, low in nuts, and only clean food is not so easy to add "lean gains" along sometime. I like to be in this way honestly, but to see some "big changes" sometimes i can change a little the schedule. I'm talking about increasing one meal a day, about 500-600kcal only for 4-6 weeks. This will not lower enough your insulin sensitivity, you CAN EVEN benefit from long term you've fasting 16/8. This is not documented, its bases on what i've seen.

    Even when i knoe someone with this approach, using any anabolic compound i'm the first to tell them to increase the number of meals, at least one more meal with carbs.

    I believe my 16/8 protocol is light trainning twice a day. First "train" is fast, feed. Second train is with weights and BIGGER meal. Probably sound stupid, but i'm only explaining the body working well with catabolic/anabolic rebound.

    But i'm a HFT lover, so the increase in ONE meal day, will allow me probable to WO twice a day for something like 4-6 weeks, with some results.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I don't have the intention of ever "Bulking" again. Once I hit a nice lean level I will be "lean gaining" up to the size I am looking for then switching to recomp to build the muscle up while leaning out at the same weight.
    I understand that, believe me as i lost 40kg along this years, in a big learning curve i'm not looking for the term bulk. Is only an approach like saying "ok i can eat MC donalds 3x week, i'm bulking". i correct, bull****ing

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Now if on a cycle or something that is different. I expect to gain with the speed of a bulk however not gain fat, as I am doing now.
    Correct, this was what i intend to add to this thread! We are synchronized.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Not saying you are incorrect either. A year of eating this way you should have some insight into this for sure. However from what I know and understand about how the body deals with the fast, and refeed. As well as what hormonal changes come along with or drive that situation and I can't really see how it would benefit body composition or the ability to grow muscle if the only factor being changed was using a 12 hour fast and 12 hour feed window.
    I believe it can make a difference. Even if you INCREASE the fast for 36h, ADF, and do a BIGGER calorie day on the refeeding day you can work 3 day like, half period fast, half period eat train eat.

    I'm not saying you do that, but i know people who use th eIF approach as an excuse to eat like crap. If they are eating like i eat, veg, eggs, not so many nuts, and little carbs (even with IF i can not handle a lot), it becames more difficult to increase the calories/carbs without the sleepy feeling.

    I tried sometime ago, "blast" phases where i just increase my carb intake for 100g, more protein too, and add it as a 1st meal of the day. It worked fine, scale moved quicker, don't see fat gains, but i'm carbophobic.

    Again, this is not documented with science neither craved in stone, just my opinion.

    I founf that even Chad Waterburry, i trainer that i respect, use a similar approach so i think maybe he thinks the same, assuming that.
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    Good responses man! I love this type of discussion. I have actually though of only doing two large meals about 12 hours apart too. That would be one large meal just after my lift and another one at dinner time. However right now everything is going so easy I am just keeping things the way they are for now.

    I definitely eat more loosely than I used to but I wouldn't say I go overboard on junk food or anything like that but if I want it and have calories available and it won't hurt my protein intake then I will have some unclean food and don't feel guilty about it at all. I clean myself up immediately if something doesn't look right with my physique.
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    Your idea looks like the "warrior diet".

    I knoe a lot of feedback with excellent results! nevertheless i tend to "under"-eat, so this is why i follow normally 16/8.

    I'm glad too, to know that this lifestyle is becaming more popular!
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    I have one real quick, kinda dumb question.

    Do you guys take fish oil caps during your morning fast (like normal AM/PM vitamins, supps, etc) or do you just double up in the PM? Splitting hairs, I know, but I thought I would ask.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adnscmplx View Post
    I have one real quick, kinda dumb question.

    Do you guys take fish oil caps during your morning fast (like normal AM/PM vitamins, supps, etc) or do you just double up in the PM? Splitting hairs, I know, but I thought I would ask.
    I take 'em with my high fat meals, which are typically in mid-evening.

    Only supps I take on an empty stomach are stims/pre-workout/minerals/ergogenics
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Your idea looks like the "warrior diet".

    I knoe a lot of feedback with excellent results! nevertheless i tend to "under"-eat, so this is why i follow normally 16/8.

    I'm glad too, to know that this lifestyle is becaming more popular!
    Yeah, I read that there too well a magazine covering it. I think they said to have a small meal after the workout though. I would probably opt for a smaller dinner and a bigger meal post workout. I train in the AM Fasted well BCAAs
    Quote Originally Posted by adnscmplx View Post
    I have one real quick, kinda dumb question.

    Do you guys take fish oil caps during your morning fast (like normal AM/PM vitamins, supps, etc) or do you just double up in the PM? Splitting hairs, I know, but I thought I would ask.
    I wouldn't sweat the fish oil, I eat 2-4 almonds with my test boosting supps that say take with food. The rule of thumb for Lean Gains is 50 calories does not break the fast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adnscmplx View Post
    I have one real quick, kinda dumb question.

    Do you guys take fish oil caps during your morning fast (like normal AM/PM vitamins, supps, etc) or do you just double up in the PM? Splitting hairs, I know, but I thought I would ask.
    You could do either one with no ill-effect -- personally, I usually end up taking 2-3 during the fasted period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Yeah, I read that there too well a magazine covering it. I think they said to have a small meal after the workout though. I would probably opt for a smaller dinner and a bigger meal post workout. I train in the AM Fasted well BCAAs
    Yes normally they will eat some hand of nuts, or similar "snacks" as low caloric as possible with a mega meal at the end of the day.

    The difference is:

    Lean gains mega meal - Prot HIGH + Carb HIGH
    Warrior - Prot + Carbs + Fat

    The slin spike will be different, but i never tried it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Yes normally they will eat some hand of nuts, or similar "snacks" as low caloric as possible with a mega meal at the end of the day.

    The difference is:

    Lean gains mega meal - Prot HIGH + Carb HIGH
    Warrior - Prot + Carbs + Fat

    The slin spike will be different, but i never tried it.
    I think all of my meals are relatively mixed. Other than the sheer size of a meal narrowing the entry to the bolus into the intestines a mixed meal (fat and carbs) does not really alter the amount of insulin that is released. There are a few studies floating around that show this to be true. Fat does not blunt insulin release.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I think all of my meals are relatively mixed. Other than the sheer size of a meal narrowing the entry to the bolus into the intestines a mixed meal (fat and carbs) does not really alter the amount of insulin that is released. There are a few studies floating around that show this to be true. Fat does not blunt insulin release.
    My macros are set to around 50 25 25, a little more fat on off days and more carbs on wd's... The fist meal is high protein lower carbs... just the way I prefer it and well the results have been phenomenal..
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    Today is date day with the wife so we go for lunch. I am not sure where we are going but I have my Titan Protein bar here to kick of the meal and add 26 grams of protein to whatever we eat. Kind of hoping we can go to chipotle and I can get a triple meat burrito bowl. MMMMMMM would get me about 12 oz of chicken and some rice that way. YEP YEP!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Today is date day with the wife so we go for lunch. I am not sure where we are going but I have my Titan Protein bar here to kick of the meal and add 26 grams of protein to whatever we eat. Kind of hoping we can go to chipotle and I can get a triple meat burrito bowl. MMMMMMM would get me about 12 oz of chicken and some rice that way. YEP YEP!!!!
    Triple meat sounds good...
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I think all of my meals are relatively mixed. Other than the sheer size of a meal narrowing the entry to the bolus into the intestines a mixed meal (fat and carbs) does not really alter the amount of insulin that is released. There are a few studies floating around that show this to be true. Fat does not blunt insulin release.
    Even that i'm not afraid of eating carbs with Fat sources.

    But remember, for me carb = sweet potatoe, brown rice, yams
    fat = coconut oil, EVOO, some nuts

    So the mix of these i'm not afraid, is diferent of veg transgenic butters with simple sugars, and is still fat + carbs

    I'm a really Pain in the ass!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Even that i'm not afraid of eating carbs with Fat sources.

    But remember, for me carb = sweet potatoe, brown rice, yams
    fat = coconut oil, EVOO, some nuts

    So the mix of these i'm not afraid, is diferent of veg transgenic butters with simple sugars, and is still fat + carbs

    I'm a really Pain in the ass!
    Yah I am pretty much the same but I do add in some calorie dense food for sanity, my choice is frozen yogurt which will have to be cut in latter prep as will all dairy...
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