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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    GW1516, AICAR, GH, Clen and T3 - done.
    LoL... Not gonna happen!
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    Quote Originally Posted by malleus25 View Post
    Anyone interested in a LG meal thread. Post pics, recipes and such of your meals to help others get an idea of things they can mix and match to get their cals.
    I think this is a good idea. My postworkout carbs I had last week consisted of oatmeal with a tablespoon of Splenda brown sugar and it tasted great! Then I added in some fresh strawberries which also tasted great.



    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Yes, but the thread should be locked until I break my fast, otherwise it will be torturous looking at all the food!!!

    Fitting all the calories into the 8hr window seems to be a challenge for some, especially if you're trying to ********. I think it would be a great idea!
    I'm having this problem now. It's been a very difficult challenge for me to consume that many calories with that much protein all at one time, without going to shakes. I feel like I'm overstuffing myself and then I feel distended and bloated. I'm going to have to change it up to 4 meals in the 8 hour window and see how that goes and I'll probably have to make one of them a shake to be able to consume enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    I think this is a good idea. My postworkout carbs I had last week consisted of oatmeal with a tablespoon of Splenda brown sugar and it tasted great! Then I added in some fresh strawberries which also tasted great.





    I'm having this problem now. It's been a very difficult challenge for me to consume that many calories with that much protein all at one time, without going to shakes. I feel like I'm overstuffing myself and then I feel distended and bloated. I'm going to have to change it up to 4 meals in the 8 hour window and see how that goes and I'll probably have to make one of them a shake to be able to consume enough.

    I am with you on the 4 meals. My post workout meal yesterday was 3cups mixed veggies, 3cups whole wheat lemon & Herb Chicken helper with 8oz Chicken and 8oz Ground 85/10 beef and half a gallon of water with some zesty italian dressing on veggies.
    "I am legally blind and if I can Squat,deadlift and over all get myself to the gym then anyone can get their a$$ in gear and get strong!!"-me





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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    I'm having this problem now. It's been a very difficult challenge for me to consume that many calories with that much protein all at one time, without going to shakes. I feel like I'm overstuffing myself and then I feel distended and bloated. I'm going to have to change it up to 4 meals in the 8 hour window and see how that goes and I'll probably have to make one of them a shake to be able to consume enough.
    That was my exact problem too, trying to stick to whole foods while still getting enough calories and protein. I started cooking with protein powders, and that's worked much better for not getting as distented/bloated post meal. I do 2 big meals and 1 "snack."

    An easy one for me to add was Better Protein Bars, 400 calories a pop and they taste really good too, they're my lunch time "dessert." I'd post a pic, but I'm not that tech savvy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by malleus25 View Post
    I am with you on the 4 meals. My post workout meal yesterday was 3cups mixed veggies, 3cups whole wheat lemon & Herb Chicken helper with 8oz Chicken and 8oz Ground 85/10 beef and half a gallon of water with some zesty italian dressing on veggies.
    That's a lot of food! I usually stick to 12oz meat, maybe that's why I'm small and weak... :
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Also, 1000th post -- just wanted it to be in a thread I really like!
    Congrats on the 1000 posts, and I love this thread too!
    Quote Originally Posted by malleus25 View Post
    Thanks, my problem is the wife she sees the huge dinner and is like how is this better, this is going to be expensive and so on.

    I just let my 1900 cal dinner drown her out as she eats her little salad and slim-fast.

    Buy the way Better bars are part of my meal plan for pre-workout food.
    Yeah they are awesome for this when you first get started. I remember actually having an issue getting down the calories in an 8 hour window at first. HAHAHAHA As if! I can eat in one sitting what was filling me up for the day before. A 1500 calorie fast breaker is nothing.

    My wife won't follow a diet persay she just kind of keeps an eye on what I am eating and eats similarly. Now she started eating a lot more at dinner because that is what I do now. So I had to tell her either stop consuming calories until Noon or don't eat what I am eating at night. You will gain weight quickly that way My Love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    My wife loves it when I sit down to a huge meal, it impresses her for some reason.
    My wife likes to see me tear down some food. Makes her proud almost.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    Funny that you say that, every woman I think I have ever dated including my ex-wife and present wife, all just absolutely love to see me eat a huge meal!

    Things that make you go Hmmm???
    I honestly think there is a hormonal response going on here. If ever there were a time to exude Alpha Male phermones this would be the time. Just think of a Pride of lions. Who eats the biggest meal and eats first? The alpha male. Who needs to know the alpha male is eating first? Any breathing thing around him. I bet there is still some of the primal instinct in us that releases phermones when feeding. Let others know there place in the feeding chain... AFTER ME!!!!! I know when I am hunkering down over my prize I will definitely get aggressive. Hands have been stabbed with forks, knuckles have bee wrapped with metal spoons and more than once an ass whoopin has resulted from someone messing with my food after I warned them not too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie Chee Scott View Post
    Tell your wife she's only harming herself eating like that, and more than likely, NOT ever going to get the results she wants, because she's essentially starving herself to do it, which means that her body will fight her for everything and hold onto it and even add to it, rebounding any weight lost as soon as she starts eating properly. Not to mention that scale weight is not that big of a deal - she should learn that too, especially since being "fat skinny" is not ideal. Losing Scale weight is easy, but all she's losing is water and food weight and very likely any small amount of muscle mass that she may have, NOT fat. If her goal is fat loss, then educate her on the importance of nutrition; let her know that eating is ok - hell, use me as an example re eating if you have to; I eat ~4,300 calories a day and can get and stay lean (not typical for a female of my size, I know, but it is a living proof example of a woman who EATS - highly likely more than you, Al, LOL).

    ~Rosie~
    All good advice and you are right even on a bulking day 4300 is more calories than I consume. If I had your metabolism at my body weight I could probably down 7000 a day without any issue. AMAZING!

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    Rosie... I could not agree with you more, which is why I when trying to explain it to her, it just doesn't sink in. Believe me I don't always do everything exactly right either, but when I am dieting down seriously, I eat 6 meals a day with high protein, low carbs and moderate fat, that is not the best for everyone, but is what works for me, and I know for a fact that it is way better than what she does! I mean at least I have proven I can totally re-composition my body without dropping precious muscle!
    If she will invest anough time to read 13 pages the Primal Blue Print will explain everything very simply and is very easy to read. It is from Mark at the Daily apple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    My problem is my wife has tried some of my suggestions, then she sees me breaking them and is like WTF?

    For example, I've told her eating breakfast is important, yada yada yada, so she starts eating more for breakfast to help with satiety. Well, now I'm on Intermittent Fasting, and she's wondering why I told her to eat breakfast when she was basically doing IF before!

    I tell her I'm constantly trying things out and tyring to learn, but it really makes her question what I tell her, LOL!
    My wife is the same way. She has never been a breakfast eater. I kept at her to start eating breakfast so her muclse would recover better from our lifts. She finally started forcing herself to eat in the mornings and I tell her that IF is the way to go and that I WAS WRONG ABOUT BREAKFAST. She mentioned she was already kind of doing things this way then. I told her yes and no because you did not limit yourself in the morning to basically have nothing. YOu would have a snack or a glass of milk or a tablespoon of peanutbutter, and would have tiny things like this all day. Never really experiencing the benefit of the fast. It was a fun discussion to say the least.

    She does get tired of the changing diets but she also loves that I can eat more things with her. Before when we wanted to do anything that was not planned she always had to ask what can you eat??? Can you have carbs today? Can you only have nuts, meat and grapefruit? What are we not allowed to have? So she likes it now that I tell her we can go anywhere you want. I can eat whatever I choose to and adjust my cals for the rest of the day. She loves that. She also loves that I have been sticking with this for 4 months now and have not gotten moody or frustrated. I adjust my intake quickly when things aren't happening the way I want them to. I have gotten to abs now just by keeping track of what I am eating but not having a meal plan or set calories for each meal or day. Just an estimate and a range.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    See I feel your pain Bro, I understand the difference between both and the science, not sure if your wife is the same way or not, but my wife does not care about the science, she only cares about what to do and when I tell her what to do, it seems to go against all that she has been taught (totally wrong way) and she reverts back to her way! Another common thing she just LOVES to say is, I'm not a guy, so I shouldn't eat like a guy, or I'm not a fitness freak like you or the girls you think I should look like, just accept me for who I am! I'll say back, I do accept you for who you are, you are the one wanting to get tone, lose weight, etc. I mean I could care less if she does or doesn't, not like she is huge or really out of shape, just lucky with genetics and now that we are getting older, she wants to just starve her way back to the body she used to have when she was in college and I keep telling her that is going to happen! So it appears to be a Lose vs. Lose battle for me... if I help her, I'm wrong and "I'm calling her FAT" if I don't help her, then "I don't CARE!" LoL... Now I just tell her why in the world do you wanna lose weight, you look fantastic!

    Oh... here is another awesome example: She came to me the other day with this picture of Ava Cowan and said I want to look like this...


    and so I'm thinking... "Yeah, what girl wouldn't want to look like that!" and I went on to explain that she is a personal trainer and a professional athlete that has put countless hours in the gym and perfected her nutrition and also explained to her that it is just the angle of the picture etc. So I further showed her another picture of Ava Cowan to prove my point... Picture I showed her.....


    And she just replied, well I don't want to look like that, I just want to look like the other girl, she's too muscular! I was like, "It's the same damn girl, that's my point!" And she just shook her head and looked at me like I was crazy because she wanted to look like one picture vs. another when it is the same damn girl and just a different angle or maybe she is leaner in one photo vs. the other, but she still has the same amount of muscle! Also this was a good excuse to post some pictures of Ava Cowan, LoL!
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    The bottom line is... she wants her cake, the icing, some milk and yet she isn't willing to do anything for it, she just wants it magically!!!
    I am just sharing my experience here not suggesting this course of action by the way. Although it did work for me, it was rough going for a bit.

    I forgot when it was but my wife used to complain about the way she looked. Like daily it was i hate this or I can't stand the way that looks. You know all the things I am talking about. Typical insecurities that any of us who really care about our appearance tend to hone in on. Well I thin about the 2-3 year point of our relationship I just got REALLY TIRED OF HEARING IT! I got upset and pulled her to the side and had a tough love conversation with her. I basically told her from this point on she was no longer allowed to bitch or complain about things she was unhappy with if she was not doing anything to change them. I of course let her know that I was completely enamored with her and that she was my heart and was absolutely beautiful to me but if she didn't feel that way she needed to do something to change it or accept it because empty complaints were making me unhappy and I wasn't going to listen to them any longer.

    Well I have to be honest here and tell you that the next few months were a little rough. I held fast to my assertion that she was not going to be "allowed" to sit and vent about anything that had to do with her physique if she was not actively trying to change it. Obviously by "allowed" I don't mean I could punish her or put her under my thumb, just that I was going to call her out abruptly EVERY TIME she tried to complain about how she looked. So for a couple months conversations may go like this.

    Her... Yada Yada yada, I look fat. Yada, yada, yada.
    Me - You aren't doing anything to change it so get used to it...

    Her, Do you think these pants make my butt look big?
    Me - No I think you doing nothing makes you look the way you do.

    Her - I really need to start exercising.
    Me - Yes you do, now stop complaining and just do it.

    Her - I feel gross...
    Me - You feel wonderful to me but if you don't like the way you feel then change it.

    Her - I am so fat
    Me - SHUT UP! YOU AREN'T DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT YOU DON'T GET TO BITCH ABOUT IT!!!!

    Her - I am going to kill you, you bald bastard! Don't you dare go to sleep tonight or I will sew you up in the sheet and beat you with a 9 iron.
    Me - Well at least that will be a workout...

    OKAY So the last one never happened. LOL

    Point in case being that I got tired of the complaints and basically being a sounding board for her to vent frustrations about herself off of instead of trying to improve. I made it a lot more uncomfortable for her to vent to me than it was for her to either be quiet or to work to improve on her situation.

    Now those things said up there look rough especially on paper but trust me I let my lovely wife know way before I started with the tough love that it was coming. I basically told her she was making me miserable with her complaints all the time when obviously I was happy with her. I can't keep my hands off of her all the while she is complaining that she looked bad and never felt good.

    Alternatively I told her that if she actually went to the gym and worked towards improving her body that she could bitch and vent all she wanted because she was actually taking action to change it. Not only would I not chastize her for it but would even take the bait and give her the compliment she was probably seeking out in the first place when she made the complaint. Hey I go fishing for compliments on occasion too. Self Pity is like an awesome lure, it just reels in the compliments from others. Now if they are genuine I don't know but they are compliments none the less.

    So now we are here several years later and she works out as intensely as any man I know. She has more fortitude than a lot of the guys at the gym and trains through things I have seen other supposedly "tough guys" cower down too.

    She is also of the same mindset as your wife Al, one of those I don't want to know why, just tell me how, and when to do it. Of course now she is gradually wanting to learn more and more. What she really loves to do is break a PR.


    We did have the conversation once about her getting abs. She wants them but not willing to do the full blown diet to get them. We had the I wanna look like that picture discussion too. I told her about the same thing as well. YOu can not get that lean without following a strict diet. Of course now I am not so sure about that. So long as the structure of the diet is sound it doesn't have to be squeaky clean. She is following a little bit more along the lines of IF now too. Not so hard and fast about the set fasting times I would say a little more like the Primal or Warrior diet, where you can have a few small snacks throughout the day and then a bigger meal later. It works for her really well as long as she doesn't get too wrapped up in what I am eating.

    Anyway the point of this post wasn't to make me look like an arrogant azzhole, although it may have succeeded at that. I hope to show that sometimes just stopping enabling a person can be enough. I stopped enabling my wife to get out her frustration just by voicing displeasure and moving on without change. Once it was more of a pain in the ass to have that conversation, she made the choice to change what was making her unhappy rather than deal with it QUIETLY on her own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Congrats on the 1000 posts, and I love this thread too!
    Yeah they are awesome for this when you first get started. I remember actually having an issue getting down the calories in an 8 hour window at first. HAHAHAHA As if! I can eat in one sitting what was filling me up for the day before. A 1500 calorie fast breaker is nothing.

    My wife won't follow a diet persay she just kind of keeps an eye on what I am eating and eats similarly. Now she started eating a lot more at dinner because that is what I do now. So I had to tell her either stop consuming calories until Noon or don't eat what I am eating at night. You will gain weight quickly that way My Love.


    My wife likes to see me tear down some food. Makes her proud almost.



    I honestly think there is a hormonal response going on here. If ever there were a time to exude Alpha Male phermones this would be the time. Just think of a Pride of lions. Who eats the biggest meal and eats first? The alpha male. Who needs to know the alpha male is eating first? Any breathing thing around him. I bet there is still some of the primal instinct in us that releases phermones when feeding. Let others know there place in the feeding chain... AFTER ME!!!!! I know when I am hunkering down over my prize I will definitely get aggressive. Hands have been stabbed with forks, knuckles have bee wrapped with metal spoons and more than once an ass whoopin has resulted from someone messing with my food after I warned them not too.


    All good advice and you are right even on a bulking day 4300 is more calories than I consume. If I had your metabolism at my body weight I could probably down 7000 a day without any issue. AMAZING!


    If she will invest anough time to read 13 pages the Primal Blue Print will explain everything very simply and is very easy to read. It is from Mark at the Daily apple.



    My wife is the same way. She has never been a breakfast eater. I kept at her to start eating breakfast so her muclse would recover better from our lifts. She finally started forcing herself to eat in the mornings and I tell her that IF is the way to go and that I WAS WRONG ABOUT BREAKFAST. She mentioned she was already kind of doing things this way then. I told her yes and no because you did not limit yourself in the morning to basically have nothing. YOu would have a snack or a glass of milk or a tablespoon of peanutbutter, and would have tiny things like this all day. Never really experiencing the benefit of the fast. It was a fun discussion to say the least.

    She does get tired of the changing diets but she also loves that I can eat more things with her. Before when we wanted to do anything that was not planned she always had to ask what can you eat??? Can you have carbs today? Can you only have nuts, meat and grapefruit? What are we not allowed to have? So she likes it now that I tell her we can go anywhere you want. I can eat whatever I choose to and adjust my cals for the rest of the day. She loves that. She also loves that I have been sticking with this for 4 months now and have not gotten moody or frustrated. I adjust my intake quickly when things aren't happening the way I want them to. I have gotten to abs now just by keeping track of what I am eating but not having a meal plan or set calories for each meal or day. Just an estimate and a range.





    I am just sharing my experience here not suggesting this course of action by the way. Although it did work for me, it was rough going for a bit.

    I forgot when it was but my wife used to complain about the way she looked. Like daily it was i hate this or I can't stand the way that looks. You know all the things I am talking about. Typical insecurities that any of us who really care about our appearance tend to hone in on. Well I thin about the 2-3 year point of our relationship I just got REALLY TIRED OF HEARING IT! I got upset and pulled her to the side and had a tough love conversation with her. I basically told her from this point on she was no longer allowed to bitch or complain about things she was unhappy with if she was not doing anything to change them. I of course let her know that I was completely enamored with her and that she was my heart and was absolutely beautiful to me but if she didn't feel that way she needed to do something to change it or accept it because empty complaints were making me unhappy and I wasn't going to listen to them any longer.

    Well I have to be honest here and tell you that the next few months were a little rough. I held fast to my assertion that she was not going to be "allowed" to sit and vent about anything that had to do with her physique if she was not actively trying to change it. Obviously by "allowed" I don't mean I could punish her or put her under my thumb, just that I was going to call her out abruptly EVERY TIME she tried to complain about how she looked. So for a couple months conversations may go like this.

    Her... Yada Yada yada, I look fat. Yada, yada, yada.
    Me - You aren't doing anything to change it so get used to it...

    Her, Do you think these pants make my butt look big?
    Me - No I think you doing nothing makes you look the way you do.

    Her - I really need to start exercising.
    Me - Yes you do, now stop complaining and just do it.

    Her - I feel gross...
    Me - You feel wonderful to me but if you don't like the way you feel then change it.

    Her - I am so fat
    Me - SHUT UP! YOU AREN'T DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT YOU DON'T GET TO BITCH ABOUT IT!!!!

    Her - I am going to kill you, you bald bastard! Don't you dare go to sleep tonight or I will sew you up in the sheet and beat you with a 9 iron.
    Me - Well at least that will be a workout...

    OKAY So the last one never happened. LOL

    Point in case being that I got tired of the complaints and basically being a sounding board for her to vent frustrations about herself off of instead of trying to improve. I made it a lot more uncomfortable for her to vent to me than it was for her to either be quiet or to work to improve on her situation.

    Now those things said up there look rough especially on paper but trust me I let my lovely wife know way before I started with the tough love that it was coming. I basically told her she was making me miserable with her complaints all the time when obviously I was happy with her. I can't keep my hands off of her all the while she is complaining that she looked bad and never felt good.

    Alternatively I told her that if she actually went to the gym and worked towards improving her body that she could bitch and vent all she wanted because she was actually taking action to change it. Not only would I not chastize her for it but would even take the bait and give her the compliment she was probably seeking out in the first place when she made the complaint. Hey I go fishing for compliments on occasion too. Self Pity is like an awesome lure, it just reels in the compliments from others. Now if they are genuine I don't know but they are compliments none the less.

    So now we are here several years later and she works out as intensely as any man I know. She has more fortitude than a lot of the guys at the gym and trains through things I have seen other supposedly "tough guys" cower down too.

    She is also of the same mindset as your wife Al, one of those I don't want to know why, just tell me how, and when to do it. Of course now she is gradually wanting to learn more and more. What she really loves to do is break a PR.


    We did have the conversation once about her getting abs. She wants them but not willing to do the full blown diet to get them. We had the I wanna look like that picture discussion too. I told her about the same thing as well. YOu can not get that lean without following a strict diet. Of course now I am not so sure about that. So long as the structure of the diet is sound it doesn't have to be squeaky clean. She is following a little bit more along the lines of IF now too. Not so hard and fast about the set fasting times I would say a little more like the Primal or Warrior diet, where you can have a few small snacks throughout the day and then a bigger meal later. It works for her really well as long as she doesn't get too wrapped up in what I am eating.

    Anyway the point of this post wasn't to make me look like an arrogant azzhole, although it may have succeeded at that. I hope to show that sometimes just stopping enabling a person can be enough. I stopped enabling my wife to get out her frustration just by voicing displeasure and moving on without change. Once it was more of a pain in the ass to have that conversation, she made the choice to change what was making her unhappy rather than deal with it QUIETLY on her own.
    Her - I am going to kill you, you bald bastard! Don't you dare go to sleep tonight or I will sew you up in the sheet and beat you with a 9 iron.
    Me - Well at least that will be a workout...

    I LOVE THIS ONE.
    "I am legally blind and if I can Squat,deadlift and over all get myself to the gym then anyone can get their a$$ in gear and get strong!!"-me





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    In response to all you guys with your wives, and in general re females...There is just no telling some people. Many women have a predetermined opinion of how one gets lean or what they do to look a certain way, and are not willing to change that mindset, no matter what they see, do, or are given as a living proof example...For example, I have actually had women look at me like I have three heads and not believe that I lift weights at all, let alone lift heavy, thinking that I must live on a constant "diet" to look the way I do, which is the furthest thing from the truth. Then I've had others say that I'm "too muscular" when I don't that much muscle mass at all. It is the same with women wanting to look like the cover models of fitness magazines, and then not being willing to use weights or stop their endless cardio, not believing what it actually takes to create the body they want for themselves...All these comments and responses are some of the many reasons why I want to change the mindsets of women, REeducate them, and kick the TRUTH into them, especially re nutrition and training! As part of my Career Objective:
    I want to be a role model for women to look up to re fitness. Women need to be better educated on the importance of using resistance training to achieve their body and fitness goals. Training with weights should neither intimidate nor scare them. I would like to see the many wrong mindsets among and about women and weight training be replaced by correct information and healthy attitudes. I also want to drive home the fact that one does NOT have to starve or live on an endless diet to get and stay lean, and lead by example that "diet" is a LIFESTYLE nutrition plan that can be maintained and adjusted as required.
    Ok, small rant done

    ~Rosie~
    Contact Me for INDIVIDUALIZED TRAINING AND NUTRITION

    "Think like a Champion. Train like a Warrior. Live with a Purpose." - Rosie Chee
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    Kleen - I'm glad she didn't sew you up in the sheets and beat you to death with the 9-iron too! Good, sound advice my friend... Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by malleus25 View Post
    Her - I am going to kill you, you bald bastard! Don't you dare go to sleep tonight or I will sew you up in the sheet and beat you with a 9 iron.
    Me - Well at least that will be a workout...

    I LOVE THIS ONE.
    Haha, yes it is hilarious in jest. However I would be lucky to be sewn up before being hit if I tried saying that to her... At least i wouldn't see it coming then. LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie Chee Scott View Post
    In response to all you guys with your wives, and in general re females...There is just no telling some people. Many women have a predetermined opinion of how one gets lean or what they do to look a certain way, and are not willing to change that mindset, no matter what they see, do, or are given as a living proof example...For example, I have actually had women look at me like I have three heads and not believe that I lift weights at all, let alone lift heavy, thinking that I must live on a constant "diet" to look the way I do, which is the furthest thing from the truth. Then I've had others say that I'm "too muscular" when I don't that much muscle mass at all. It is the same with women wanting to look like the cover models of fitness magazines, and then not being willing to use weights or stop their endless cardio, not believing what it actually takes to create the body they want for themselves...All these comments and responses are some of the many reasons why I want to change the mindsets of women, REeducate them, and kick the TRUTH into them, especially re nutrition and training! As part of my Career Objective:


    Ok, small rant done

    ~Rosie~
    Awesome Rant! I love it. I had such a hard time getting my wife to hit the weights. She started it all with running then when she lost weight and got skinny fat she was like WTF, why am I not getting tone. I told her you aren't doing anything to tone up. Just to loose fat and burn through muscle mass that gives you shape. I told her just give me 6 weeks of 3 exercises 1 warm up, 2 work sets and a drop set. We started with assisted dips, assisted chins and the cabled squat sled. Well Like I sad here we are many years later and she is one of the most intense and focused lifters I know. The differences just those 3 exercises made with 2 work sets and a drop set was all she needed to be convinced that weights were what was going to shape her body the way she wants it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    Kleen - I'm glad she didn't sew you up in the sheets and beat you to death with the 9-iron too! Good, sound advice my friend... Thanks!
    Me too! It is good advice if you have a good relationship, and have already laid the groundwork for it. I can see some young buck trying that on a new girlfriend and walking away single with an i-Phone shoved up his back side. LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I can see some young buck trying that on a new girlfriend and walking away single with an i-Phone shoved up his back side. LOL
    That is actually a real thing happening in LA right now, it is called Rampodding!



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    I thought that was supposed to be Cherry not Apple...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Awesome Rant! I love it. I had such a hard time getting my wife to hit the weights. She started it all with running then when she lost weight and got skinny fat she was like WTF, why am I not getting tone. I told her you aren't doing anything to tone up. Just to loose fat and burn through muscle mass that gives you shape. I told her just give me 6 weeks of 3 exercises 1 warm up, 2 work sets and a drop set. We started with assisted dips, assisted chins and the cabled squat sled. Well Like I sad here we are many years later and she is one of the most intense and focused lifters I know. The differences just those 3 exercises made with 2 work sets and a drop set was all she needed to be convinced that weights were what was going to shape her body the way she wants it.
    Exactly. RESISTANCE training is the way to achieve the "dream" body re aesthetics most women (and men) want or aspire to. Cardio has a place in training as well, especially if one is an athlete, but it's not the "determining" training factor in building one's body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post



    sick!

    I'm willing to bet she has a penis.
    For me, the action IS the juice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by malleus25 View Post
    I am with you on the 4 meals. My post workout meal yesterday was 3cups mixed veggies, 3cups whole wheat lemon & Herb Chicken helper with 8oz Chicken and 8oz Ground 85/10 beef and half a gallon of water with some zesty italian dressing on veggies.
    yeah, that sounds about like my post workout meals! Huge with lots of meat that I find myself struggling to choke down. I think I will go post shake and then an hour later do solid foods to try to make it work better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    That was my exact problem too, trying to stick to whole foods while still getting enough calories and protein. I started cooking with protein powders, and that's worked much better for not getting as distented/bloated post meal. I do 2 big meals and 1 "snack."

    An easy one for me to add was Better Protein Bars, 400 calories a pop and they taste really good too, they're my lunch time "dessert." I'd post a pic, but I'm not that tech savvy!
    I've heard of them but haven't tried them. If it just a protein kind of bar then I probably rather just drink it (protein). I'm open to options though cause I gotta figure something out to make this work better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soontobbeast View Post
    sick!

    I'm willing to bet she has a penis.
    Grow up. Ava is an amazing and beautiful woman. Just because a female is lean and/or has better muscle definition that you doesn't make her masculine or mean she is anything other than what she is. Such comments are uncalled for!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie Chee Scott View Post
    Grow up. Ava is an amazing and beautiful woman. Just because a female is lean and/or has better muscle definition that you doesn't make her masculine or mean she is anything other than what she is. Such comments are uncalled for!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie Chee Scott View Post
    Grow up. Ava is an amazing and beautiful woman. Just because a female is lean and/or has better muscle definition that you doesn't make her masculine or mean she is anything other than what she is. Such comments are uncalled for!

    ~Rosie~
    I understand why you would feel slightly offended, but you don't look crazy like she does. You have some semblance of a woman's body still.

    In your theory, I only feel less attracted to this woman, because she is leaner than I. It has nothing to do with the fact she has the frame of a man, or has huge veins coming out of her sixpack, right? It's all cause i feel threatened, right? I guess, if a woman makes fun of a guy who has bigger tits than she does, its cause she feels threatened? You see how crazy that sounds?

    The definition of masculinity is having qualities traditionally ascribed to men. Men traditionally have more muscle mass/definition and lower BF% than women. So yeah, it does make her more masculine, looking like she does. Just like a guy having long hair and tits would make him look more feminine.
    For me, the action IS the juice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soontobbeast View Post
    I understand why you would feel slightly offended, but you don't look crazy like she does. You have some semblance of a woman's body still.

    In your theory, I only feel less attracted to this woman, because she is leaner than I. It has nothing to do with the fact she has the frame of a man, or has huge veins coming out of her sixpack, right? It's all cause i feel threatened, right? I guess, if a woman makes fun of a guy who has bigger tits than she does, its cause she feels threatened? You see how crazy that sounds?

    The definition of masculinity is having qualities traditionally ascribed to men. Men traditionally have more muscle mass/definition and lower BF% than women. So yeah, it does make her more masculine, looking like she does. Just like a guy having long hair and tits would make him look more feminine.
    I'm not offended, but immature comments like that are as I said, uncalled for. As for your, "You have some semblance of a woman's body still" - I couldn't care less what you think of my figure; I look the way I do for me and no one else.

    I did not make any theory at all; stop trying to twist my words. Ava does not have the "frame of a man", and vascularity in the midsection is not an issue - I have that, and when I get leaner, as much as she does as well. I have yet to meet a female who "makes fun of a guy who has bigger tits than she does", and there are many males out there who fall into this category.

    We do not live in a "traditional" world, so to give a stereotype of how men and women SHOULD be and look is somewhat IRrelevant. A female being lean does NOT "make her more masculine" - I am leaner than probably ~95% of people that I know, including men, and I am in no way masculine (except perhaps in attitude and behaviour, as I have been accused sometimes, being as competitive as I am, and a tomboy until only recent years, but how I am should not matter to anyone else). The same as a male having long hair does not make him feminine by any means, nor does being fat or having gyno (which is the only reason he would have larger breast tissue than a woman).

    But, you are entitled to your opinions and I to mine, and since I have no interest in anyone trying to cause issues or arguments, nor is there any reason to further this exchange, I consider this discussion done. Back to the topic of this thread - Lean Gains and Intermittent Fasting protocols and experiences.

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    Yes, lets get back to the wife/gf problem...

    I don't know what it is going to take... Muscle wasting diets, plus endless cardio... do they realize what muscle is? always makes me sad when my fiance is like why do I have fat here, why do I have pimples? And I just tell her well... diet, exercise are you doing them? And she says stuff like i don't wanna be big, i'm too lazy. sigh.... Now for the wedding she actually joined some gym. Apparently, they told her they can do spot reduction for her lat area... Poliquin says it's carb intolerance, but i'd be interested to see how/if the Japanese gym guys tackle this... They told her she doesn't need to change her diet... She does some like weird stretching thing in the back supposedly tightening that area...

    meh sorry,

    /rant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosie Chee Scott View Post
    I'm not offended, but immature comments like that are as I said, uncalled for. As for your, "You have some semblance of a woman's body still" - I couldn't care less what you think of my figure; I look the way I do for me and no one else.

    I did not make any theory at all; stop trying to twist my words. Ava does not have the "frame of a man", and vascularity in the midsection is not an issue - I have that, and when I get leaner, as much as she does as well. I have yet to meet a female who "makes fun of a guy who has bigger tits than she does", and there are many males out there who fall into this category.

    We do not live in a "traditional" world, so to give a stereotype of how men and women SHOULD be and look is somewhat IRrelevant. A female being lean does NOT "make her more masculine" - I am leaner than probably ~95% of people that I know, including men, and I am in no way masculine (except perhaps in attitude and behaviour, as I have been accused sometimes, being as competitive as I am, and a tomboy until only recent years, but how I am should not matter to anyone else). The same as a male having long hair does not make him feminine by any means, nor does being fat or having gyno (which is the only reason he would have larger breast tissue than a woman).

    But, you are entitled to your opinions and I to mine, and since I have no interest in anyone trying to cause issues or arguments, nor is there any reason to further this exchange, I consider this discussion done. Back to the topic of this thread - Lean Gains and Intermittent Fasting protocols and experiences.

    ~Rosie~
    Maybe i didn't offend you, but, i want to clarify that when i said you still have a semblance of a woman's body [ meaning you looked more womanly and/or attractive ], i was saying in contrast to ava's . either way, you can have the last word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soontobbeast View Post
    Maybe i didn't offend you, but, i want to clarify that when i said you still have a semblance of a woman's body [ meaning you looked more womanly and/or attractive ], i was saying in contrast to ava's . either way, you can have the last word.
    The definition of an oxymoron.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soontobbeast View Post
    Maybe i didn't offend you, but, i want to clarify that when i said you still have a semblance of a woman's body [ meaning you looked more womanly and/or attractive ], i was saying in contrast to ava's . either way, you can have the last word.
    You are not welcome in this thread, quietly walk away while you still have some resemblance of pride though your foot is so far down your throat I find that hard to picture. When you find a woman in as good a shape and as attractive as Rosie, then come talk.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    Back on topic...

    Has anyone looked at using HumaPro by ALRI or Gear from **** during the fast instead of or in addition to BCAA?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Back on topic...

    Has anyone looked at using HumaPro by ALRI or Gear from **** during the fast instead of or in addition to BCAA?
    I'm not convinced either are capable of doing anything significant. I could be wrong. Either way, it would be an interesting discussion.
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    I have used aminos, not used aminos, used Gear, honestly if there are differences they are so slight I am not seeing them. Although at the same time the SPP intrigues me due to suggested increased bioavailability in the intestines due to length of time it is supposedly available there for use do to it's increased size. That is one thing that kind of intrigues me. However do I think it is needed no. Do I even know if the regular use of aminos during the fast offers anything that the rebound effect from not having them would not negate during the supercompensation period in the anabolic window.

    What percent of an increase in protein synthesis is there from the small bursts of aminos compared to the supercompensation effect of the body from not having protein to synthesize in the first place? Does it equal out, is it greater, is the difference so small that it would not justify the increased expense of aminos? That is the real question...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    I'm not convinced either are capable of doing anything significant. I could be wrong. Either way, it would be an interesting discussion.
    Though it's marketing material, it's interesting with the HumaPro how they select which EAA to include, and then also their insulogenic stuff to supposedly prolong absorption so the aminos are delivered over time.

    During the Nutra sale, I picked up a couple tubs of HumaPro since I was out of EAA. So far the taste is good with both of them and they mix well, but too early to tell any results. I take 1 scoop pre-workout, 1 scoop post workout (both fasted), and then 1 more scoop pre-bed (again during fast, about 3-4 hours after last meal).

    I am also using **** Gear, 4 caps pre-workout and 4 caps post-workout, fasted in both cases. These are easy to take, and more convenient than a powder.

    I'm wondering which, if either, would be most beneficial. I'm stacking them because I want to keep aminos going around my workout even though I fast until 4 hours post workout.

    I also take BCAA 2 hours after my workout, and sometimes another dose 2hrs after that.

    A LOT OF AMINOS!!!!
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    My only issue is that's 2g of whole protein and about 7g of free-form EAA. Personally, there's no way I'd be satisfied with that as my post-workout nutrition.

    I guess, since you're continuing to fast post-workout, it makes some sense, but I don't see the benefit of using those two over just, say, leucine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I have used aminos, not used aminos, used Gear, honestly if there are differences they are so slight I am not seeing them. Although at the same time the SPP intrigues me due to suggested increased bioavailability in the intestines due to length of time it is supposedly available there for use do to it's increased size. That is one thing that kind of intrigues me. However do I think it is needed no. Do I even know if the regular use of aminos during the fast offers anything that the rebound effect from not having them would not negate during the supercompensation period in the anabolic window.

    What percent of an increase in protein synthesis is there from the small bursts of aminos compared to the supercompensation effect of the body from not having protein to synthesize in the first place? Does it equal out, is it greater, is the difference so small that it would not justify the increased expense of aminos? That is the real question...
    I wonder why MB suggests using BCAA/EAA every 2 hours during the fast if it's not necessary? I thought there were several factors including catabolism, mTOR and MPS. http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/ear...-training.html

    Regarding the "anabolic window", isn't that immediately post workout reaching its peak about 4hrs post workout? I thought I read on LB that if you workout in the morning that you should use aminos to help keep MPS up until you break your fast.

    The ideal situation is to break your fast immediately post workout, but for those of us who workout fasted in the morning and have to go 4+ hours to break fast, it seems that aminos are recommended.

    I agree aminos are not needed, no supplement really is by definition, but I can't imagine how going without aminos would be better. I don't think it's quantifiable how much better/worse it is.
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    More from MB:

    "Consuming BCAAs every other hour through the fast is sufficient to keep protein synthesis stimulated and prevent protein breakdown. If protein intake is completely omitted, it would undoubtedly affect results negatively. Thus the compromise of ingesting BCAA pre- and post-workout through the fast, before the real post-workout meal, which is initiated at the usual time of the feeding phase.

    Will we still derive the benefits from regular fasting if we consume small amounts of protein throughout the fast post-workout? Yes. If carbs are omitted, the increased insulin sensitivity will quickly bring back basal insulin to fasted state levels despite consuming 120 calories worth of fairly insulinogenic amino acids. The fasted state is almost fully maintained post-workout.

    When the post-workout meal comes around is also when muscle protein synthesis is beginning to take off. Though muscle protein synthesis is acutely stimulated post-workout in response to resistance training and protein intake, studies show some latency in regards to elevation and peak. Protein synthesis starts to climb about 3-4 hours post-workout, reaches a peak at the 24-hour-mark and returns close to baseline values 36 hours post-workout (or 48 hours depending on who you ask; studies on this topic show slightly different results regarding length and peak of elevation). Even if you push back the post-workout meal a few hours, you will be in the fed state at a time when nutrient partitioning is optimized and muscle growth likely to occur.

    By consuming small amounts of BCAA through the fasted state we are stimulating synthesis and halting breakdown. A few hours later, when protein synthesis is increasing, we enter the fed state. The latency seen with protein synthesis in response to training, and the fact that we have amino acids (BCAA) in circulation pre- and post-workout, goes a long way in explaining why clients following this protocol get equal results to those following other protocols."

    and more:

    "It's impossible to quantify the losses from omitting protein intake in the hours pre and post-workout. I doubt the consequences will be "severe" (as in: gaining nothing without pre and post-workout protein intake).

    Protein balance will be negatively affected if there are no substrates available for protein synthesis. After feeding, balance will turn positive. By not consuming protein in the hours pre and post-workout you are missing out on a few hours of the day where strategically you'd want to have aminos available for synthesis."

    and something on Leucine vs. BCAA/EAA:

    "There are no studies looking at leucine alone vs BCAA/EAA. Leucine is the key regulator of muscle protein synthesis but it may be that the other two branched-chain aminos play a role as well. In this case I'd rather be safe than sorry and go with BCAA/EAA."
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    All well and good, but theres no way you're getting 120 cals of aminos from your 7g dose.

    And if I were ingesting that much aminos, yes, I would want to include other residues besides leucine. But a 7g dose? Straight leucine, please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    All well and good, but theres no way you're getting 120 cals of aminos from your 7g dose.

    And if I were ingesting that much aminos, yes, I would want to include other residues besides leucine. But a 7g dose? Straight leucine, please.
    Resolve, I think the 120 is based off of the total consumption of aminos during the fast, or 30 grams of aminos spread out over the fast not all at once.

    Milas, the point that I was making in the other post is that perhaps the their is a supercompensation effect IE an adaptation to the minor nitrogen dip by causing even higher nitrogen retention once feeding has restarted. Think of it the same as growing a muscle. You apply stress to the muscle via progressive resistance, which causes a need for adaptation via super compensation when rebuilding the muscle tissue. So I am not discounting that yes there may be, or more than likely is a temporary dip in nitrogen levels if no other substrate was available. However is there not a similar checks and balances type thing in place for this particular system? I am almost sure that there is.

    Also it comes to mind re-reading the info you just put up that protein synthesis is naturally cyclical. I am not sure how much we are beating the natural cycle with the addition of aminos. If I remember correctly the natural cycle kind of runs in 4 hour waves.

    If protein synthesis does not begin to climb until 3-4 hours after working out then how exactly does he expect there to be degradation of protein if it is not being synthesized or used at the time? Also during a fast as short as the ones we are fasting both protein synthesis, and protein breakdown is blunted and lypolosis is the main source of energy for the body due to the active amount of glucagon like peptide in the system during a fast.

    For this method of eating I refer to the anabolic window as the anabolic window we create via our fast. The 8 hour eating window is the anabolic window to me now, not just a few hours following the workout. That is just the time insulin sensitivity is high from the exercise stimulation. With IF you create your anabolic window by increasing insulin sensitivity via the fast.

    It has been shown that not feeding the muscles carbs post workout further increases insulin sensitivity in the muscle tissue increasing the nutrient uptake when ingested later. Part of the reason for the Carb free post workout that DatBTrue came up with that works really well for the people using it. I am only mentioning it because it also supports the reasoning behind my theory that there may indeed be a super compensation of nitrogen retention after dipping into a negative nitrogen balance if indeed this negative balance can happen in the short 16 hour period of fasting.

    Remember although this is labeled Lean Gains in the title I am also going off of a colletion of information from many various IF methodolgies to develop my IF strategies and experience.

    I imagine someone here is really good at searching pubmed, if so I would be curious if anyone can find a study showing that there is an up swing in notrogen retention above normal after going into a negative nitrogen balance. Also perhaps if they can find anything that states how long it takes to acheive the negative nitrogen balance using resistance training as a stressor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Milas, the point that I was making in the other post is that perhaps the their is a supercompensation effect IE an adaptation to the minor nitrogen dip by causing even higher nitrogen retention once feeding has restarted. Think of it the same as growing a muscle. You apply stress to the muscle via progressive resistance, which causes a need for adaptation via super compensation when rebuilding the muscle tissue. So I am not discounting that yes there may be, or more than likely is a temporary dip in nitrogen levels if no other substrate was available. However is there not a similar checks and balances type thing in place for this particular system? I am almost sure that there is.
    I've never heard of such an effect with nitrogen. Rather than assume there is, I'd rather go with what's proven.

    Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids
    Kevin D. Tipton, Arny A. Ferrando, Stuart M. Phillips, David Doyle Jr., and Robert R. Wolfe
    We examined the response of net muscle protein synthesis to ingestion of amino acids after a bout of resistance exercise. A primed, constant infusion ofl-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine was used to measure net muscle protein balance in three male and three female volunteers on three occasions. Subjects consumed in random order 1 liter of 1) a mixed amino acid (40 g) solution (MAA), 2) an essential amino acid (40 g) solution (EAA), and3) a placebo solution (PLA). Arterial amino acid concentrations increased ∼150640% above baseline during ingestion of MAA and EAA. Net muscle protein balance was significantly increased from negative during PLA ingestion (−50 23 nmol ⋅ min−1 ⋅ 100 ml leg volume−1) to positive during MAA ingestion (17 13 nmol ⋅ min−1 ⋅ 100 ml leg volume−1) and EAA (29 14 nmol ⋅ min−1 ⋅ 100 ml leg volume−1;P < 0.05). Because net balance was similar for MAA and EAA, it does not appear necessary to include nonessential amino acids in a formulation designed to elicit an anabolic response from muscle after exercise. We concluded that ingestion of oral essential amino acids results in a change from net muscle protein degradation to net muscle protein synthesis after heavy resistance exercise in humans similar to that seen when the amino acids were infused.
    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/276/4/E628.full


    Based on what actually happens in the body, it doesn't seem like protein/nitrogen supercomensation is likely either.

    protein supercompensation

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Also it comes to mind re-reading the info you just put up that protein synthesis is naturally cyclical. I am not sure how much we are beating the natural cycle with the addition of aminos. If I remember correctly the natural cycle kind of runs in 4 hour waves.
    I think it's more of a refractory period IIRC, as in once you meet a threshold it doesn't activate MPS any more (i.e., dose dependent up to a threshold, then it is binary). However, you can restart MPS once the refractory period expires, I think that's around 4hrs as you said, IIRC Layne Norton has something on that? Other than that, I believe Layne also mentions that the refractory period can be overcome by creating higher concentrations of leucine to create another period of MPS even if the refractory period is not over.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    If protein synthesis does not begin to climb until 3-4 hours after working out then how exactly does he expect there to be degradation of protein if it is not being synthesized or used at the time? Also during a fast as short as the ones we are fasting both protein synthesis, and protein breakdown is blunted and lypolosis is the main source of energy for the body due to the active amount of glucagon like peptide in the system during a fast.
    Aminos are being used constantly for various purposes, not just MPS. If the body is depleted, like after a workout, it will "steal" it from muscle tissue, which is the "warehouse" for aminos. Supplementing with BCAA provides aminos for MPS as well as other needs. I believe BCAA are preferred by the body for metabolism while exercising. Aminos will be used, not necessarily just for energy, but other pathways like immune response.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    For this method of eating I refer to the anabolic window as the anabolic window we create via our fast. The 8 hour eating window is the anabolic window to me now, not just a few hours following the workout. That is just the time insulin sensitivity is high from the exercise stimulation. With IF you create your anabolic window by increasing insulin sensitivity via the fast.
    Gotcha, "anabolic window" is such a common term used for pre/intra/post workout I immediately assumed that's what you were talking about. For IF I agree, you have 8 hours to get a net positive amino/nitrogen count in your body. But if MPS only happens every 4 hours, won't we be limited to 1 or maybe 2 at most instances of MPS with IF?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    It has been shown that not feeding the muscles carbs post workout further increases insulin sensitivity in the muscle tissue increasing the nutrient uptake when ingested later. Part of the reason for the Carb free post workout that DatBTrue came up with that works really well for the people using it. I am only mentioning it because it also supports the reasoning behind my theory that there may indeed be a super compensation of nitrogen retention after dipping into a negative nitrogen balance if indeed this negative balance can happen in the short 16 hour period of fasting.
    True, but it's also been shown that there's synergy in combining carbs and aminos for recovery, MPS, and hypertrophy. Which is better, I dunno...

    I still don't think there's anything supporting nitrogen supercompensation, but I do agree that it's all about nitrogen balance over a 24hr period for anabolism...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Remember although this is labeled Lean Gains in the title I am also going off of a colletion of information from many various IF methodolgies to develop my IF strategies and experience.
    I've mainly been reading off LeanGains, but you're right I should "expand my horizons"

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I imagine someone here is really good at searching pubmed, if so I would be curious if anyone can find a study showing that there is an up swing in notrogen retention above normal after going into a negative nitrogen balance. Also perhaps if they can find anything that states how long it takes to acheive the negative nitrogen balance using resistance training as a stressor.
    I tried, though I'm not the best at it... Very interested to see what others think/find!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    I've never heard of such an effect with nitrogen. Rather than assume there is, I'd rather go with what's proven.

    Postexercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids
    Kevin D. Tipton, Arny A. Ferrando, Stuart M. Phillips, David Doyle Jr., and Robert R. Wolfe
    We examined the response of net muscle protein synthesis to ingestion of amino acids after a bout of resistance exercise. A primed, constant infusion ofl-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine was used to measure net muscle protein balance in three male and three female volunteers on three occasions. Subjects consumed in random order 1 liter of 1) a mixed amino acid (40 g) solution (MAA), 2) an essential amino acid (40 g) solution (EAA), and3) a placebo solution (PLA). Arterial amino acid concentrations increased ∼150640% above baseline during ingestion of MAA and EAA. Net muscle protein balance was significantly increased from negative during PLA ingestion (−50 23 nmol ⋅ min−1 ⋅ 100 ml leg volume−1) to positive during MAA ingestion (17 13 nmol ⋅ min−1 ⋅ 100 ml leg volume−1) and EAA (29 14 nmol ⋅ min−1 ⋅ 100 ml leg volume−1;P < 0.05). Because net balance was similar for MAA and EAA, it does not appear necessary to include nonessential amino acids in a formulation designed to elicit an anabolic response from muscle after exercise. We concluded that ingestion of oral essential amino acids results in a change from net muscle protein degradation to net muscle protein synthesis after heavy resistance exercise in humans similar to that seen when the amino acids were infused.
    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/276/4/E628.full


    Based on what actually happens in the body, it doesn't seem like protein/nitrogen supercomensation is likely either.

    protein supercompensation



    I think it's more of a refractory period IIRC, as in once you meet a threshold it doesn't activate MPS any more (i.e., dose dependent up to a threshold, then it is binary). However, you can restart MPS once the refractory period expires, I think that's around 4hrs as you said, IIRC Layne Norton has something on that? Other than that, I believe Layne also mentions that the refractory period can be overcome by creating higher concentrations of leucine to create another period of MPS even if the refractory period is not over.



    Aminos are being used constantly for various purposes, not just MPS. If the body is depleted, like after a workout, it will "steal" it from muscle tissue, which is the "warehouse" for aminos. Supplementing with BCAA provides aminos for MPS as well as other needs. I believe BCAA are preferred by the body for metabolism while exercising. Aminos will be used, not necessarily just for energy, but other pathways like immune response.



    Gotcha, "anabolic window" is such a common term used for pre/intra/post workout I immediately assumed that's what you were talking about. For IF I agree, you have 8 hours to get a net positive amino/nitrogen count in your body. But if MPS only happens every 4 hours, won't we be limited to 1 or maybe 2 at most instances of MPS with IF?



    True, but it's also been shown that there's synergy in combining carbs and aminos for recovery, MPS, and hypertrophy. Which is better, I dunno...

    I still don't think there's anything supporting nitrogen supercompensation, but I do agree that it's all about nitrogen balance over a 24hr period for anabolism...



    I've mainly been reading off LeanGains, but you're right I should "expand my horizons"



    I tried, though I'm not the best at it... Very interested to see what others think/find!
    Well done, I need to finish reading that article you linked. On this one, there ends up being plenty of carbs and protein together for that synergy so it kind of puts both avenues into play. As far as the protein cycles in the 8 hour window correct linearly thinking that be true. However the large meal makes the bolus shrink slowing the emptying of the stomach and digestion. With mostly whole foods or some addition of casein you would still be digesting some of that protein well into the early morning hours. As long as aminos are entering the blood stream they are available for MPS. Not just during those 8 hours.

    I have been taking aminos pre and post workout, but not at all on burn days. Although I may add more back in when funds allow.
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    A lot of good info in here on Aminos...now my brain is officially fried!! Thanks guys!!
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    Well to start off... all I have to say is that is MrKleens name was secretly Billy Mays and this shxt was for sale... ID BE SOLD LIKE A MOTHERFXCKER! hahaha

    Then again that infomercial guy is dead and this shxt is free advice! All joking aside I am very intrigued by this diet and looking forward to researching some more... Tried to read as much as I could on my evo today but that small screen for reading 30 pages gets tiring!

    So I guess Im trying to figure out where I would come in to play on this spectrum. I wake up at 5am and work anywhere from 6am to roughly 6-7pm... Now I understand I could break my fast around 1230-1pm and still have plenty of time to get all my meals in before 9pm ish. What concerns me is that I work on a landscaping maintenance crew so on any given day I have already probably walked 1-3 hours with a trimmer in my hand or a blower on my back. Seems like it could be a lot of exercise to be doing fasted... do you think doing this with BCAAs would be ok?

    Also for a guy like me with my schedule and work... would my biggest meal prefer to be the fast break... or my post workout meal? My post workout meal will approximately be 1-3 hours before bed.


    Right now im trying the 40/40/20 diet or at least close to it. Im going to see how that pans out for a couple weeks and if im not happy with the results then im definitely coming over to the LG... but i'd like to start learning now

    Thanks fellas! And Ladies
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    I'd go with 40% of calories pre-workout at some point for the fast-break and maybe pre-workout snack depending on workout timing, then the rest of the 60% calories post workout and before bed. Save the larger portion of carbs for post workout, and get some protein and fat before bed.

    BCAA would be good while fasted IMO, best is not sipping them all day but rather slamming it to get a spike and start MPS. Do that every 2 hous while fasting and you should be good. I'd recommend a 4:1:1 or 8:1:1 ratio for the BCAA.

    Just my opinion, others may have better ideas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedGrunt View Post
    So I guess Im trying to figure out where I would come in to play on this spectrum. I wake up at 5am and work anywhere from 6am to roughly 6-7pm... Now I understand I could break my fast around 1230-1pm and still have plenty of time to get all my meals in before 9pm ish. What concerns me is that I work on a landscaping maintenance crew so on any given day I have already probably walked 1-3 hours with a trimmer in my hand or a blower on my back. Seems like it could be a lot of exercise to be doing fasted... do you think doing this with BCAAs would be ok?
    So going by what you've said, I'm assuming you lift in the evening after you get home from work (after 7PM)? I can probably help you out with this one since I'm one of the minority who use LG and lift late in the evening.

    If you're going to sleep at 9PM, you would start eating at 1PM or close to it -- maybe you have a lunch break around this point? A half-hour or so in either direction is no biggy either and can easily be adapted to your schedule.

    Despite the fact that you're quite active before your first meal, you should actually be burning primarily fat as opposed to slipping into catabolism. As Milas suggested, you could utilize BCAAs to initiate protein synthesis during the fast every few hours -- you could just put X grams into a water bottle and drink a certain amount throughout your morning.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedGrunt View Post
    Also for a guy like me with my schedule and work... would my biggest meal prefer to be the fast break... or my post workout meal? My post workout meal will approximately be 1-3 hours before bed.

    Right now im trying the 40/40/20 diet or at least close to it. Im going to see how that pans out for a couple weeks and if im not happy with the results then im definitely coming over to the LG... but i'd like to start learning now
    Under these conditions, I would make your post-workout meal your largest of the day regardless of how close it is to bed. I sleep well on a full stomach and have seen very little negative impact from taking in serious calories before going to sleep.

    I'm not sure how many calories you're taking in total, but I would shoot for roughly 30% at ~1PM (Meal 1) with the remaining 70% falling in the post-workout window (i.e. the entire time between training and sleeping); this kind of setup allows you to utilize the majority of your calories toward glycogen replenishment and protein synthesis.

    Hopefully some of that answers your questions bud!
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    Wow, how low can we go with this diet...? I dropped more weight on vacation, did a lot of cardio and extended fast then ate like a pig and got leaner... I am now leaner than I have ever been I think which puts me in the neighborhood of 6% and there is no sign I can't go lower as I have not even started to do any kind of prep...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Wow, how low can we go with this diet...? I dropped more weight on vacation, did a lot of cardio and extended fast then ate like a pig and got leaner... I am now leaner than I have ever been I think which puts me in the neighborhood of 6% and there is no sign I can't go lower as I have not even started to do any kind of prep...
    It is an amazing thing for sure.
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