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    I don't see it being hard to take in 4000-4500 calories in the 8 hour window.
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    I take in 4100 in a 8 hour window no problem on w/o days
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I don't see it being hard to take in 4000-4500 calories in the 8 hour window.

    after i break my fast its pretty hard not to break calorie limits.

    during that first meal i tear some food up! its hard to stop lol
    For me, the action IS the juice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I don't see it being hard to take in 4000-4500 calories in the 8 hour window.
    I don't see it being difficult either. I mean I can easily take in 2k+ just in the fast breaking meal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I don't see it being hard to take in 4000-4500 calories in the 8 hour window.
    Absolutely. I can (and often) do that in a single meal - and I did on Saturday night!

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    Oh yea, I my refeed days! 5000 cals in one meal is not hard at all haha!
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    I don't say it is hard. I love IF, one year following it gives me that result.

    When someone want to increase results he will need more slin for that, as is the more anabolic hormone of the body. Is no new for anyone here. What i meant to say was, sporadic shorting on the fast period will benefit for more insulin liberation that can lead to more muscle, and if not careful to more fat. I'm talking about optimization, but i'm a high frequency trainee so maybe this make things different.

    I make an home made "gluten-free" pizza saturday, that have at leat 3k calorie of no junk food. This was my first meal of the day that i can eat without problems, so believe eating is not a problem for me!

    ---PS: addition the recipe

    Crust: 200g almond flour, 80g shredded cheese low fat, 30g coconut oil, pinch of salt, 2 eggs. Goes to oven until good texture.

    Topping: 250g tuna, 100g shrimp, 200g tomato, oregano, salt, garlic, 50g shredded cheese.

    i think i don't forgot nothing, but after these i still ingest 3 muffins gluten free too lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Ain't it groovy I mean almost 3 lbs of muscle gained in 12 days with 2 lbs of fat loss. That is awesome even being on a mild PH. I am big right now though. Holiday eating and all. I have filled up quite a bit since those Saturday morning readings.
    I am dropping fat faster than I ever have and it's just plain simple. When I start the EPI-V I may just add a couple hundred cals on wd's (all protein likely). Hek if I opt for the worlds in December I may be able to squeeze in a lean bulker!! What kind of calories would I have to shovel in then!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    I am dropping fat faster than I ever have and it's just plain simple. When I start the EPI-V I may just add a couple hundred cals on wd's (all protein likely). Hek if I opt for the worlds in December I may be able to squeeze in a lean bulker!! What kind of calories would I have to shovel in then!!
    I can't wait to see how lean you end up... When is your plan to start the EPI-V?
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    Interesting Sik, hadn't thought of it in that way. So you think that the added meals will allow for more insulin to build muscle. However did you consider the difference in insulin sensitivity, or the fact that glucagon increases lipolsys during the fast while also increasing the insulin sensitivity in skeletal muscle? To remove exposure of the muscle cells to the glucagon for extended periods would lower insulin sensitivity or keep it from being as elevated as it would be with the 16 hour fast. Also, the more time that blood sugar is floating around increasing insulin production would also lower insulin sensitivity. So I am not sure that there would be any benefit to removing 4 hours from the fasting window if Lean Gains is the goal as opposed to just gains on the scale.

    I don't have the intention of ever "Bulking" again. Once I hit a nice lean level I will be "lean gaining" up to the size I am looking for then switching to recomp to build the muscle up while leaning out at the same weight.

    Now if on a cycle or something that is different. I expect to gain with the speed of a bulk however not gain fat, as I am doing now.

    Not saying you are incorrect either. A year of eating this way you should have some insight into this for sure. However from what I know and understand about how the body deals with the fast, and refeed. As well as what hormonal changes come along with or drive that situation and I can't really see how it would benefit body composition or the ability to grow muscle if the only factor being changed was using a 12 hour fast and 12 hour feed window.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    I can't wait to see how lean you end up... When is your plan to start the EPI-V?
    It's looking like mid July right now...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    It's looking like mid July right now...
    Sounds good Brotha, be sure to send me that link and I will be SUBd from day one!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    Sounds good Brotha, be sure to send me that link and I will be SUBd from day one!!!
    Oh yah you will get advanced warning lol I like to plan ahead and will have all my ducks in a row at least a week ahead of time if not more...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Oh yah you will get advanced warning lol I like to plan ahead and will have all my ducks in a row at least a week ahead of time if not more...
    Awesome Bro... as always, You da MAN!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyDoc View Post
    Awesome Bro... as always, You da MAN!
    Thanks and a very obssesvie one
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Interesting Sik, hadn't thought of it in that way. So you think that the added meals will allow for more insulin to build muscle. However did you consider the difference in insulin sensitivity, or the fact that glucagon increases lipolsys during the fast while also increasing the insulin sensitivity in skeletal muscle? To remove exposure of the muscle cells to the glucagon for extended periods would lower insulin sensitivity or keep it from being as elevated as it would be with the 16 hour fast. Also, the more time that blood sugar is floating around increasing insulin production would also lower insulin sensitivity. So I am not sure that there would be any benefit to removing 4 hours from the fasting window if Lean Gains is the goal as opposed to just gains on the scale.
    Yes i consider differences in insulin sensitivity. You can increase the sensitivity through weight trainning, calories/carb cycling, etc and through fasting. What i'm saying is that sometimes will be better to use an example of 4 meals a day, with only 12h fast instead of overeating in REAL CLEAN food.

    If someone follow this, low in nuts, and only clean food is not so easy to add "lean gains" along sometime. I like to be in this way honestly, but to see some "big changes" sometimes i can change a little the schedule. I'm talking about increasing one meal a day, about 500-600kcal only for 4-6 weeks. This will not lower enough your insulin sensitivity, you CAN EVEN benefit from long term you've fasting 16/8. This is not documented, its bases on what i've seen.

    Even when i knoe someone with this approach, using any anabolic compound i'm the first to tell them to increase the number of meals, at least one more meal with carbs.

    I believe my 16/8 protocol is light trainning twice a day. First "train" is fast, feed. Second train is with weights and BIGGER meal. Probably sound stupid, but i'm only explaining the body working well with catabolic/anabolic rebound.

    But i'm a HFT lover, so the increase in ONE meal day, will allow me probable to WO twice a day for something like 4-6 weeks, with some results.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I don't have the intention of ever "Bulking" again. Once I hit a nice lean level I will be "lean gaining" up to the size I am looking for then switching to recomp to build the muscle up while leaning out at the same weight.
    I understand that, believe me as i lost 40kg along this years, in a big learning curve i'm not looking for the term bulk. Is only an approach like saying "ok i can eat MC donalds 3x week, i'm bulking". i correct, bull****ing

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Now if on a cycle or something that is different. I expect to gain with the speed of a bulk however not gain fat, as I am doing now.
    Correct, this was what i intend to add to this thread! We are synchronized.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Not saying you are incorrect either. A year of eating this way you should have some insight into this for sure. However from what I know and understand about how the body deals with the fast, and refeed. As well as what hormonal changes come along with or drive that situation and I can't really see how it would benefit body composition or the ability to grow muscle if the only factor being changed was using a 12 hour fast and 12 hour feed window.
    I believe it can make a difference. Even if you INCREASE the fast for 36h, ADF, and do a BIGGER calorie day on the refeeding day you can work 3 day like, half period fast, half period eat train eat.

    I'm not saying you do that, but i know people who use th eIF approach as an excuse to eat like crap. If they are eating like i eat, veg, eggs, not so many nuts, and little carbs (even with IF i can not handle a lot), it becames more difficult to increase the calories/carbs without the sleepy feeling.

    I tried sometime ago, "blast" phases where i just increase my carb intake for 100g, more protein too, and add it as a 1st meal of the day. It worked fine, scale moved quicker, don't see fat gains, but i'm carbophobic.

    Again, this is not documented with science neither craved in stone, just my opinion.

    I founf that even Chad Waterburry, i trainer that i respect, use a similar approach so i think maybe he thinks the same, assuming that.
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    Good responses man! I love this type of discussion. I have actually though of only doing two large meals about 12 hours apart too. That would be one large meal just after my lift and another one at dinner time. However right now everything is going so easy I am just keeping things the way they are for now.

    I definitely eat more loosely than I used to but I wouldn't say I go overboard on junk food or anything like that but if I want it and have calories available and it won't hurt my protein intake then I will have some unclean food and don't feel guilty about it at all. I clean myself up immediately if something doesn't look right with my physique.
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    Your idea looks like the "warrior diet".

    I knoe a lot of feedback with excellent results! nevertheless i tend to "under"-eat, so this is why i follow normally 16/8.

    I'm glad too, to know that this lifestyle is becaming more popular!
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    I have one real quick, kinda dumb question.

    Do you guys take fish oil caps during your morning fast (like normal AM/PM vitamins, supps, etc) or do you just double up in the PM? Splitting hairs, I know, but I thought I would ask.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adnscmplx View Post
    I have one real quick, kinda dumb question.

    Do you guys take fish oil caps during your morning fast (like normal AM/PM vitamins, supps, etc) or do you just double up in the PM? Splitting hairs, I know, but I thought I would ask.
    I take 'em with my high fat meals, which are typically in mid-evening.

    Only supps I take on an empty stomach are stims/pre-workout/minerals/ergogenics
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Your idea looks like the "warrior diet".

    I knoe a lot of feedback with excellent results! nevertheless i tend to "under"-eat, so this is why i follow normally 16/8.

    I'm glad too, to know that this lifestyle is becaming more popular!
    Yeah, I read that there too well a magazine covering it. I think they said to have a small meal after the workout though. I would probably opt for a smaller dinner and a bigger meal post workout. I train in the AM Fasted well BCAAs
    Quote Originally Posted by adnscmplx View Post
    I have one real quick, kinda dumb question.

    Do you guys take fish oil caps during your morning fast (like normal AM/PM vitamins, supps, etc) or do you just double up in the PM? Splitting hairs, I know, but I thought I would ask.
    I wouldn't sweat the fish oil, I eat 2-4 almonds with my test boosting supps that say take with food. The rule of thumb for Lean Gains is 50 calories does not break the fast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adnscmplx View Post
    I have one real quick, kinda dumb question.

    Do you guys take fish oil caps during your morning fast (like normal AM/PM vitamins, supps, etc) or do you just double up in the PM? Splitting hairs, I know, but I thought I would ask.
    You could do either one with no ill-effect -- personally, I usually end up taking 2-3 during the fasted period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Yeah, I read that there too well a magazine covering it. I think they said to have a small meal after the workout though. I would probably opt for a smaller dinner and a bigger meal post workout. I train in the AM Fasted well BCAAs
    Yes normally they will eat some hand of nuts, or similar "snacks" as low caloric as possible with a mega meal at the end of the day.

    The difference is:

    Lean gains mega meal - Prot HIGH + Carb HIGH
    Warrior - Prot + Carbs + Fat

    The slin spike will be different, but i never tried it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Yes normally they will eat some hand of nuts, or similar "snacks" as low caloric as possible with a mega meal at the end of the day.

    The difference is:

    Lean gains mega meal - Prot HIGH + Carb HIGH
    Warrior - Prot + Carbs + Fat

    The slin spike will be different, but i never tried it.
    I think all of my meals are relatively mixed. Other than the sheer size of a meal narrowing the entry to the bolus into the intestines a mixed meal (fat and carbs) does not really alter the amount of insulin that is released. There are a few studies floating around that show this to be true. Fat does not blunt insulin release.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I think all of my meals are relatively mixed. Other than the sheer size of a meal narrowing the entry to the bolus into the intestines a mixed meal (fat and carbs) does not really alter the amount of insulin that is released. There are a few studies floating around that show this to be true. Fat does not blunt insulin release.
    My macros are set to around 50 25 25, a little more fat on off days and more carbs on wd's... The fist meal is high protein lower carbs... just the way I prefer it and well the results have been phenomenal..
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    Today is date day with the wife so we go for lunch. I am not sure where we are going but I have my Titan Protein bar here to kick of the meal and add 26 grams of protein to whatever we eat. Kind of hoping we can go to chipotle and I can get a triple meat burrito bowl. MMMMMMM would get me about 12 oz of chicken and some rice that way. YEP YEP!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Today is date day with the wife so we go for lunch. I am not sure where we are going but I have my Titan Protein bar here to kick of the meal and add 26 grams of protein to whatever we eat. Kind of hoping we can go to chipotle and I can get a triple meat burrito bowl. MMMMMMM would get me about 12 oz of chicken and some rice that way. YEP YEP!!!!
    Triple meat sounds good...
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I think all of my meals are relatively mixed. Other than the sheer size of a meal narrowing the entry to the bolus into the intestines a mixed meal (fat and carbs) does not really alter the amount of insulin that is released. There are a few studies floating around that show this to be true. Fat does not blunt insulin release.
    Even that i'm not afraid of eating carbs with Fat sources.

    But remember, for me carb = sweet potatoe, brown rice, yams
    fat = coconut oil, EVOO, some nuts

    So the mix of these i'm not afraid, is diferent of veg transgenic butters with simple sugars, and is still fat + carbs

    I'm a really Pain in the ass!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Even that i'm not afraid of eating carbs with Fat sources.

    But remember, for me carb = sweet potatoe, brown rice, yams
    fat = coconut oil, EVOO, some nuts

    So the mix of these i'm not afraid, is diferent of veg transgenic butters with simple sugars, and is still fat + carbs

    I'm a really Pain in the ass!
    Yah I am pretty much the same but I do add in some calorie dense food for sanity, my choice is frozen yogurt which will have to be cut in latter prep as will all dairy...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Yah I am pretty much the same but I do add in some calorie dense food for sanity, my choice is frozen yogurt which will have to be cut in latter prep as will all dairy...
    Yougurt, like Greek seems good option! but i don't have it here, at least i don't find it...

    Some dairy food i use sometimes, when i want to bump a little my calories like some cheeses for my gluten-free pizzas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Yougurt, like Greek seems good option! but i don't have it here, at least i don't find it...

    Some dairy food i use sometimes, when i want to bump a little my calories like some cheeses for my gluten-free pizzas
    Yah ok for off season for me but my skin gets a bit watery with dairy so I will cut it out about 6 weeks before competing...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    You could do either one with no ill-effect -- personally, I usually end up taking 2-3 during the fasted period.
    I do the same thing, throw a few down during the fast sporadically with some Universal Liver Tabs. I don't take more than 2 at once with 2 liver tabs though, same thing Kleen said, keep it under 50 calories. I end up taking 4 with my fast breaking meal and another 3-4 later in the day for 10 total on most days.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Today is date day with the wife so we go for lunch. I am not sure where we are going but I have my Titan Protein bar here to kick of the meal and add 26 grams of protein to whatever we eat. Kind of hoping we can go to chipotle and I can get a triple meat burrito bowl. MMMMMMM would get me about 12 oz of chicken and some rice that way. YEP YEP!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Yah ok for off season for me but my skin gets a bit watery with dairy so I will cut it out about 6 weeks before competing...
    I understand, everyone is different and most of them will handle the foods in a different way.

    Even with IF, and with the clean carbs i referred i easily come fat if i "overcome". But i'm loving the ideas shared here! NOT GOOD FOR PEOPLE CUTTING

    Quote Originally Posted by oufinny View Post
    I do the same thing, throw a few down during the fast sporadically with some Universal Liver Tabs. I don't take more than 2 at once with 2 liver tabs though, same thing Kleen said, keep it under 50 calories. I end up taking 4 with my fast breaking meal and another 3-4 later in the day for 10 total on most days.
    This is why some guy's try some "pulses" of 10g of peptopro or similar amino's <50kcal, through the day.

    Never tried it, but would like to know results!
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    Very interesting concepts in here. I actually just read through the entire 26 pages...that was painful, but enlightening. So I quoted some posts for clarification.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    The fasting protocals seem to vary regarding when to have amino acids. One thing consistently shown is that it takes a few days for your body to begin the signal to start catabolism. The first few days of a fast are actually spent in an increased metabolic rate not a slower one. That does not happend for a few days after the fast begins. In the beginning of the fast the energy expenditure is naturally leaning towards being active to encourage the foraging and hunting. During this time the body feeds on fat. It naturally knows to increase lypolosis, and increase BMR to keep the body active. It takes some time but as the leptin levels begin to deplete the body begins to change its focus to an energy saving mode. This is when the body starts to preserve fat and goes after the muscle. However there is not logical reason to think that a workout done after an overnight fast would have any catabolic effect at all. None of these approaches get anywhere near the point where catabolism is going to be a factor. However the effort people are making with the aminos, and leucine is to stimulate protein synthesis during the training and to supply some substrate to be used during the time of gross underfeeding.

    In my opinion on and ADF you would not have any reason to take Aminos on your training day seeing as to the fact you will be taking in a ton of protein and there will be no shortage of aminos in the blood stream. However adding them into the fasting period to increase some protein synthesis may be useless it is definitely not hurting anything short of our pockets. I will go amino less at some point to test the theory and if not changes in recovery that will be another supplement I drop off my arsenal. Man this is gonna make me rich soon if I keep finding it makes supplements I was using not needed any longer.
    ...
    According to various research articles, MPS can be boosted every two hours by consuming BCAA's, so I don't know why it wouldn't be considered important, especially in a fasted state.

    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/132/10/3219S.short

    http://agro-food-industry.teknoscien...ton_AF2_09.PDF

    http://pubget.com/search?q=authors%3...0E%20Norton%22


    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    I think the role of BCAA is being oversimplified for anti-catabolic purposes. It does a lot more for protein synthesis (keep you building muscle, not just avoid catabolism), as well as other protein expression. Martin mentions:

    "For fasted sessions, ingest 10 g branched chain amino acids (BCAA) shortly prior (5-15 mins) to your training session. This does not count towards the 8-hour feeding window that I advocate post-workout; that starts with your post-workout meal. By ingesting BCAA pre-workout, we can sidestep the increased protein breakdown of fasted training while still reaping the benefits of the increased anabolic response as seen in this study. Not only that, BCAAs actually increase phosphorylation of p70s6k when ingested in the fasted state prior to training. So by training fasted, with BCAA intake prior to sessions, we get a double whammy of increased p70s6k phosphorylation that should create a very favorable environment for muscle growth in the post-workout period. "

    I'd just keep using the BCAA every 2 hours as recommended to keep protein synthesis going.
    This

    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    On the lean gains site he has some dishes and recipes. basically that first meal maybe 40-50 grams protein, 35-40 grams carbs, lower fat keep it light and easy to digest is my recommendation. Then the meal after your workout you would want to consume probably 50-60% of your calories in that meal then the rest on your final meal.

    My dinner tonight consisted of about 12 oz worth of lean ground turkey breast in spaghetti sauce no noodles and about 20 green grapes. Happy camper, and tomorrow I get to eat big.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Not going to write up a diet here for you but recommendations. get in 100 grams or more of protein in the meal following your lift. Add another meal. Preferably MORE Post workout, if that means you ad a second post workout meal where you are having the dessert then that is where i would put it.
    ...

    So, I usually workout in the morning at around 9am and get up at about 730ish. I take it that I should have my BCAA's only preworkout. I would need to time my last meal of the previous night to get the IF timing down so that I would then have my first REAL meal immediately post workout say at about 11am. This should consist of mainly easily digestible food sources from mainly protein and carbs. So a protein shake with some PowerCarb would be a good option? (this is for sticking to the diet and for ease of use because I rarely go straight home after my workouts and don't have a microwave at the gym). Then two hours later (if consuming 4 meals in the 8 hour window) or ~three hours later (if consuming 3 meals in the 8 hour window), have my biggest meal of the day consisting of ~50% of my daily caloric intake (in whatever Macro's as long as it fits into my overall daily macro intake goals)? I really want to get this down right because I'm intrigued by it and can only give it a fair shot and be successful with it if I do it correctly. I'm in contest prep now and want to see if this really does work better for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Initial hunger will hit but it only sticks around for maybe 20 minutes max and then goes away for several hours again. If you can just distract yourself during those times it wont be so bad just make yourself think about something other than being hungry and the next thing you know you your aren't hungry any more. I originally thought I would have a lot of trouble waiting until Noon and I workout at 4:30, I just take aminos at 4:15, 6:30, then ever 2.5 or so hours untilI eat at noon or sometimes 1:00 it just depends. It is working well for me. However if it doesn't suit you then a 40-50 grams protein and 50g carbs meal or shake post workout and then begin your feeding window later. May even enable you to start really feeding at 2 or even 4pm.
    That's going to be my biggest challenge. I'm always really really hungry in the morning. Would taking in a pure fiber source, like Metamucil or Myogenix Pro Fiber, with my morning amino shake to curb appetite alter the fasted condition, since these are carbs but aren't quite absorbed the same way? Other appetite suppressants don't do crap for me. I find the best way is to stay busy and keep away from food.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Absolutely Gentlemen! I agree completely. I have no need for the full 8 hour window on most of my rest days. I feel after yesterday I hit the money train with the big 1000 + calorie lunch then having a small meal later in the day. I went about 200 cals over my planned 1500 because I made the family some grilled cheese sandwiches and decided one wouldn't hurt me. Guess what it didn't. However that big meal kept me squared away until about 7 then I had a shake and then the sandwich. Today is an eat day and I am gonna cram in some quality foods today. I am getting ready to do some deads in the garage then wake the wife up to go finish legs of at the gym. I will break my fast after the workout and then it is on!
    So our "rest" days are determined by the days we don't lift or do cardio or either? If so then I only have two rest days a week. Would carb cycling still be effective using this dieting routine and say, make the "rest" days my no carb days?


    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Why not use a combination of fitday and a spreadsheet?
    I use myfitnesspal app for my droid. It's easy to use and effective and allows me to consistently monitor and adjust my macros and caloric intake as the day goes on. I changed the goal setting and adjusted the macros to meet my own specifications.



    My last two questions:
    What about having enough energy to get in a good workout since I do all of my workouts in the morning when I would be at the tailend of my fasted time frame? I already feel weakened in the gym on just "no carb" days. I know some people have said that your body adapts and gets used to it, but I also know that carbs are the body's primary fuel source and I would think that workout quality would suffer because of this.

    Finally, what about GDA's? Would you still use nutrient repartitioner's while on this diet with your carbs?

    Sorry I have so many questions but I really want to get this right. I want to have a really good showing in my next contest and I know diet and conditioning is key so if you could please be detailed and help me understand this I would be greatly appreciative!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    According to various research articles, MPS can be boosted every two hours by consuming BCAA's, so I don't know why it wouldn't be considered important, especially in a fasted state.

    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/132/10/3219S.short

    http://agro-food-industry.teknoscien...ton_AF2_09.PDF

    http://pubget.com/search?q=authors%3...0E%20Norton%22
    Part of the question mark about doing this is whether that is enough in nutrients to take your body out of the fasted state, effectively ruining any growth hormone/insulin sensitivity gains that are a major point of IF.


    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    That's going to be my biggest challenge. I'm always really really hungry in the morning. Would taking in a pure fiber source, like Metamucil or Myogenix Pro Fiber, with my morning amino shake to curb appetite alter the fasted condition, since these are carbs but aren't quite absorbed the same way? Other appetite suppressants don't do crap for me. I find the best way is to stay busy and keep away from food.
    Ever tried caralluma fimbrata based ones? they seem to work well.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    My last two questions:
    What about having enough energy to get in a good workout since I do all of my workouts in the morning when I would be at the tailend of my fasted time frame? I already feel weakened in the gym on just "no carb" days. I know some people have said that your body adapts and gets used to it, but I also know that carbs are the body's primary fuel source and I would think that workout quality would suffer because of this.
    stims. You do get used to it though. I've been doing fasted training for a long time now, but often when I travel for work I end up having to do evening non-fasted workouts. Theres a slight strength difference (higher) when I do that, but either way I continue to see progression.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    So our "rest" days are determined by the days we don't lift or do cardio or either? If so then I only have two rest days a week. Would carb cycling still be effective using this dieting routine and say, make the "rest" days my no carb days?


    My last two questions:
    What about having enough energy to get in a good workout since I do all of my workouts in the morning when I would be at the tailend of my fasted time frame? I already feel weakened in the gym on just "no carb" days. I know some people have said that your body adapts and gets used to it, but I also know that carbs are the body's primary fuel source and I would think that workout quality would suffer because of this.

    Finally, what about GDA's? Would you still use nutrient repartitioner's while on this diet with your carbs?
    I believe your understanding of "rest days" is correct -- although you could perform some low-intensity work to potentially accelerate fat loss (if necessary).

    Also, I've never really had success with "no-carb" -- the extremely restrictive nature always leads me (and my fellow fitness-minded friends) to a regressive binge or a constant yearning for carbohydrates that is extremely distracting.

    Instead, I do "low-carb" (~75-100g) on rest and low-intensity days and "higher-carb" (250-300g) on weight training days; protein remains relatively constant throughout.

    But if "no-carb" works for you then DO IT! I just haven't seen much long-term success with extremely strict carbohydrate control AND I have seen multiple cases of effective fat loss with the protocol outlined above.

    As for using a nutrient partitioner, I've always used them before/with meals containing a moderate-to-high amount of carbohydrate and have maintained a successful composition. R-ALA (or NP bulk ALA) and Biotin are my regulars since they are widely available and cheap.
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    Ok first my aplogies, I haven't read the whole thread (just the first and last page)

    But I think a lot of my questions can be answered VERY SUCCINCTLY:

    Can someone post a sample diet for an AM workout?

    that's all. I lift around 10am usually. So I am thinking this means pre-wo Shake and BCAAs, then 11:30 post-WO HUGE meal, then another meal around 3:00 and the last meal around 7:00.

    Kleen/dreamweaver/anyone doing the diet, can you post what you've been doing? I really want to see how the macros vary between the 3 meals in the feeding period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Part of the question mark about doing this is whether that is enough in nutrients to take your body out of the fasted state, effectively ruining any growth hormone/insulin sensitivity gains that are a major point of IF.



    Ever tried caralluma fimbrata based ones? they seem to work well.



    stims. You do get used to it though. I've been doing fasted training for a long time now, but often when I travel for work I end up having to do evening non-fasted workouts. Theres a slight strength difference (higher) when I do that, but either way I continue to see progression.
    As for the IF factor I can see that being a valid point, but if it's only every 2-3 hours of BCAA supplementation with no other intake, then it should (I presume) fall in the "under 50 cals" cutoff point of eliciting such a response. I'm not sure if this is an accurate interpretation though.

    I haven't had caralluma fimbrata but I will check it out, thanks for the head up on it.

    Now, when I read through the initial doublegains leangains article, he stated he ate two hours before his workout. Do you AM workouters do this or do you just do BCAA's pre and then start you first meal as your "easy to digest" post workout meal? I wonder cause I workout at around 9-10 am typically. I absolutely hate mornings and hate getting up any earlier then I have to. Do you AM'ers eat first thing in the morning say, 7 AM then workout at 9AM then do your big second meal at 11 AM and then wrap up the last meal with his proposed slow digesting protein at 1 PM? This leaves alot of the day left in this fasted state, however, I see one potential advantage is that when you're hungriest, you'll be asleep and know that you will wake up to a nice meal! One potential disadvantage is that the evening is when we're typically most likely to snack and have those cravings. I dunno, what do you guys find works best for you? Anybody tried both ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    I believe your understanding of "rest days" is correct -- although you could perform some low-intensity work to potentially accelerate fat loss (if necessary).

    Also, I've never really had success with "no-carb" -- the extremely restrictive nature always leads me (and my fellow fitness-minded friends) to a regressive binge or a constant yearning for carbohydrates that is extremely distracting.

    Instead, I do "low-carb" (~75-100g) on rest and low-intensity days and "higher-carb" (250-300g) on weight training days; protein remains relatively constant throughout.

    But if "no-carb" works for you then DO IT! I just haven't seen much long-term success with extremely strict carbohydrate control AND I have seen multiple cases of effective fat loss with the protocol outlined above.

    As for using a nutrient partitioner, I've always used them before/with meals containing a moderate-to-high amount of carbohydrate and have maintained a successful composition. R-ALA (or NP bulk ALA) and Biotin are my regulars since they are widely available and cheap.
    As for the no carb, I'm meaning only on the no carb days of a typical carb cycle or is that trying to integrate too much into the program? I'm not sure if it would have an added benefit in conjunction with LG/IF diet.

    I do use nutrient repartitioners as well, just wanted to make sure there wasn't some reason not too on this diet! Thanks for taking the time to reply, this diet is SO new to me and I'm already dead set on trying it.
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