The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log
- 05-13-2011, 11:30 AM
Good idea about "borrowing" calories from other days! Perhaps tonight I'll "save" a few hundred for tomorrow. I'll probably be a bit more comfortable tonight and tomorrow that way. However, during the week I count on the previous night's calorie loading at the end of my 8hr window to be there for AM training the next day.
Why couldn't it all be simple and cookie cutter! I just want to train and eat, thinking is for work!
- 05-13-2011, 11:46 AM
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- 05-13-2011, 12:26 PM
05-13-2011, 12:52 PM
The math makes sense though, it's going from +20% to -20%; that's a total swing of 40%, or almost half.
Assuming my BMR is 2500, I add ~1000 cal on workout days (estimated on Livestrong.com). That gives me my maintenance, which I then add 20% to, so
2500 + 1000 = 3500 + 20% (700) = 4200.
For rest days, assuming I do nothing, my BMR alone (maintenance) will be 2500. Off days supposed to shoot for 20% below maintenance so:
2500 - 20% - 2000.
For a BMR of 2500 calories and exercise of 1000 calories:
On day: 4200
Off day: 2000
Off day + 500cal cardio: 2400
My actuals using real BMR (~2800cal) and exercise (~900cal) are closer to this:
On day: 4400
Off day: 2240
Off day + 500cal cardio: 2640
TIME TO GO HEAT UP MY FOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
05-13-2011, 01:10 PM
But, the way you did it might be an even more useful way to measure it -- especially if you were on a cut! You could dip lower than his recommendation in the PDF (which I think is for "lean gains" as opposed to fat loss).
05-13-2011, 01:54 PM
05-13-2011, 02:03 PM
I think the goal is to eat approximately your maintenance calories, on average, each week. A few more calories on days you workout, a few less calories on days you don't. Not sure that being super technical is really necessary. Try it out and see what works for you.
05-13-2011, 02:34 PM
Right, but my question is whether "maintenance" is BMR or BMR + exercise.
BIG difference for me, I workout 5 days a week, so that'd be ~6000+ calories difference a week, or a day and a half of eating!
It's not super technical, it's math! If I'm counting calories I want to know what the target is!
But, without knowing any better I'm going to assume "maintenance" is BMR + exercise. My goals are 4400 calories on working days and 2240-2640 on non working days, depending on cardio. Thanks!
05-13-2011, 02:35 PM
05-13-2011, 02:42 PM
05-13-2011, 02:45 PM
those workout days will be some good eating
05-13-2011, 02:53 PM
I think cutting calories lower on those off-days could enhance the fat loss properties of IF if that was the primary goal.
05-13-2011, 03:25 PM
Interesting thread so far with everyone's experiences and opinions. I'll weigh in on my experience with IF;
It does work and is beneficial although less so if you are extremely active every day. I find it pretty much the same as EOD cycling of calories (results wise) and the "fasting" part does not really impact any part of the diet except convenience(2-3 big meals instead of meals all day long).
I also did not find my workouts to be as intense just as I did with straight calorie cycling. I also found it comparable to carb cycling in terms of results and energy.
I think what IF does is gives another tool in the arsenal for the bodybuilding enthusiast as our lives are always changing and we need to adapt or fall by the wayside in terms of our goals.
05-13-2011, 03:30 PM
I'm holding out on my opinion until based on results (other than the huge meals, yum!). So far I haven't noticed incredible "leaning" or "gaining" other than calorie cycling. That may be due to multiple factors and time. It is something to keep you guessing and learning, which is good IMO. However, it'll probably eventually pass as a fad too (not trying to be blasphemous)...
05-13-2011, 03:34 PM
05-13-2011, 03:43 PM
there are more. I particularly point to Ramadan based studies as its a similar feeding pattern, although a little different. But there are quite a lot of Ramadan based studies with decent amounts of participants available vs there not being many internmittent fasting ones.
05-13-2011, 04:01 PM
I have read all that before. Frankly working out and eating healthy in general increases insulin sensitivity. There are no studies that compare the healthy active bodybuilder that fasts vs one that doesn't and any increases/decreases when pitted against each other. Nor are there any long term studies on this.
I am basing my opinions on my own extensive experimentation with this diet and other similar ones. I have been reading MB's stuff (and other supporters of this style of eating)since its inception as well. It is no better than any other diet unless it works for you and your lifestyle.
05-13-2011, 04:35 PM
More than anything else as i mentioned above when responding to Milas is that Lean Gains is easier / simpler to follow for me. I get the convenience of 1-3 larger meals depending on how I feel like splitting it up and get to eat a lot more choices of food some that are not considered clean or would never be eaten on a cut. So for me what really makes this better is not just that I do notice more leaning effects from it but that I can enjoy my food more and still get as good or better results than on a strict, boring 5-6 meals a day type of diet that I have drudgingly followed as if taking medicine for years... That and I will definitely follow it longer because it is not as strict. Even doing it as a lifestyle type diet not counting every little thing worked very well for me. There is not I have been restricting myself for 3 months someone let me strap on a feed bag and go to town which leads to a festival of gluttony until I am back to my prior pre-dieted physique and frustrated with myself for slipping from the discipline required to maintain it. I need discipline from 4:30AM until Noon then I can eat good foods. If I want to eat all of it in 1 meal I can and there are no ill effects, if I want to use the full 8 hour window I do that. That is why Lean Gains is my choice and why Martin set out to create it in the first place. He was tired of the dogmatic following of the 6 meal a day regime that required nonstop discipline until you backslid. Wanted something simpler and just as effective if not more so.
If I can follow Intermittent Fasting almost indefinitely due to it's leniency, and can only force myself to eat extremely disciplined for a few months at a time with a traditional approach to dieting then I will make more progress with Lean Gains. Not that I couldn't make the same progress with the traditional approach but I would be less satisfied with my overall situation in general. Always feeling like I was denying myself something I want or crave is not an overly satisfying way to live for me. Before I sacrificed that for the physique and now I do not have to. That is why I love Intermittent Fasting. Not trying to talk anyone into anything as this is just me explaining why I love it and have adopted it.
Another thing to remember is that there is not any requirement for the non training days to be low carb. He has it laid out that way for some people but he also speaks out against ketosis diets and anything that is that severe regarding avoiding any macro-nutrient. If carb sensitive which he expects you to know or discover for yourself yes lower carbs are what you need. Someone who is not carb sensitive could easily be taking in 300-400 grams of carbs on non training day and 500-600 on training days, depending on caloric needs and insulin sensitivity. He recommends lower carbs on non training days but this means lower than training days not lower as in low carb. Ya feel me?
I am carb sensitive so my carb levels are lower 100-150 non training and 200-250 on training days, but that is specific to me. If you can eat a fugton of carbs without any ill effects then by all means rip that sh*t up!!!!
Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
05-13-2011, 06:57 PM
05-13-2011, 07:13 PM
Easy stuff man! I know my activity level and my body type as well as having a slightly slower metabolism than typical so I simply multiply my body weight by 12-13 to include activity.
Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
05-14-2011, 12:22 AM
05-14-2011, 03:16 AM
Glad it's working for ya kleen. Like I said diets there are many paths for many individuals. For me the fast part wasn't any different results wise than any other similar diet or cutting program, and I am pretty sure I have ran it longer than anyone on this thread. Maybe not though, I haven't read through every post. I still prefer my own tweaked out diet combination and eating around 5 meals a day.
Most people I see doing diets could likely reach their goals if they just ate cleaner and stuck with it. The main point about any bodybuilding diet or workout plan is sticking to it IMO. You have to experiment to know what works for ya though.
05-14-2011, 04:27 PM
05-14-2011, 05:15 PM
I know IF can help me break away from eating every few hours, but I still do that during my 8hr window. I have my lunch at noon, 2 separate snacks at work afterwards, my postworkout shake, and finally my last meal. I like it spread out that way though so its more preference and routine I guess. I have been doing the I/F diet for a little over a week and have seen some leaning out in my midsection and have become very accustomed to this way of eating. I really don't see any reason to go back to eating any other way.
05-14-2011, 10:09 PM
I work at 7AM and my last meal of the day is around 8PM. MY breaks at work vary and I want to try this diet, but I am not sure how to go about it. Wake up at 6, Take 10G bcaa and ALCAR with dexaprine and then i usually work from 7am to 4pm so should I not eat that whole time, then hit the gym around 430 and THEN have my first meal post workout around 630? Seems like ill have very little calorie intake, and how could I get my protein in? Is a shake in the morning or throughout the day okay?
05-14-2011, 10:16 PM
05-15-2011, 07:55 AM
I'm working so hard at funding my BMR and rmr and counting calories and doing this and that, I hope it pays off
05-15-2011, 08:05 AM
Hey just got this email. Thought it would apply:
My mom sent me a text the other day about a study out of the
University of Utah (She's always looking out for me!). Apparently,
according to this study, people who fast one day a month are
40 percent less likely to be diagnosed with clogged arteries than those
who did not regularly fast.
Sounds like great news, especially if you are like me and fast
6 to 8 times per month.
Unfortunately, after looking over the study, I did a google
search to see what the newswires were reporting and found
some very disheartening news bytes.
According to an article I found on Yahoo News, when asked to
comment on the study a doctor from the Mayo
Clinic (who was not involved in the study), stated "Fasting
resets the metabolic rate".
Now I'm not sure what this particular Doc meant by "resets", and he
was probably speaking about long term fasting,
but the author of the article on Yahoo News added these
words after Doc's quote "slowing it down to adjust to
less food and forcing the body to store calories as soon as
people resume eating".
These words cannot possibly be from the Doctor. They just can't
be. There is no way I can accept that a doctor being interviewed
about research would make such an incorrect statement, especially
since it was in reference to a 24 hour fast.
This begs the question, why is the mainstream media so
afraid to tell people to eat less? Why is it that when research
on the benefit of brief periods of fasting comes out, people
have to comment on the dangers of long term chronic fasting.
Instead of just explaining that as little as one 24 hour fast
per month can reduce your chances of being diagnosed with
clogged arteries, they have to start digging to find something,
(completely unrelated to the study), so they can throw some
negative comments into the fray.
If you've read Eat Stop Eat, you know that metabolism does
not decrease during brief fasting. This has been found in lean and
obese people, men and women, adults and children. The research
is really very strong in this area! In fact, evidence suggests that
your metabolism may even go UP during a fast!
I know it will be an up hill battle, but my goal is to make
the use of brief periods of fasting a respected and established
method of weight control...because it is easy and because it
05-15-2011, 12:28 PM
05-15-2011, 12:46 PM
yah I signed up for e-mails from this. After I went to the lean gains site. Im looking inot this more later today. Just thought id share
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