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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    I thnk that when you train plays a big factor as well, you have to listen to your body, this is not cookie cutter.. If you are too hungry on your off days take some from your on days to compensate, this is going to happen if you train later in the day where a lot of the recovery occurs ths next day.
    Hmmm... with morning training, I think I should get as many cals in as soon as possible.

    Good idea about "borrowing" calories from other days! Perhaps tonight I'll "save" a few hundred for tomorrow. I'll probably be a bit more comfortable tonight and tomorrow that way. However, during the week I count on the previous night's calorie loading at the end of my 8hr window to be there for AM training the next day.

    Why couldn't it all be simple and cookie cutter! I just want to train and eat, thinking is for work!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Hmmm... with morning training, I think I should get as many cals in as soon as possible.

    Good idea about "borrowing" calories from other days! Perhaps tonight I'll "save" a few hundred for tomorrow. I'll probably be a bit more comfortable tonight and tomorrow that way. However, during the week I count on the previous night's calorie loading at the end of my 8hr window to be there for AM training the next day.

    Why couldn't it all be simple and cookie cutter! I just want to train and eat, thinking is for work!
    Yah morning training is 8-10 ours diference then you do all you're feeding later in the day... A bigger swing makes sense for this scenario, this is just me thinking out loud about what I experience. I think I get very hungry the next day because I train later in the day hence less of a swing for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Hmmm... 2400 - 2800 is not much of a swing. I'd think your maintenance would be higher than that, particularly with exercise? But I guess you are efficient...

    I'm just surprised that I'm supposed to be at 4.2K cal on working days, and 2K cal on off days! That's more than a 50% swing! I guess that's the point of LeanGains / IF?

    This weekend I'm going to try those zero calorie miracle noodles. Anyone try those?

    That is a lot of swing. I'm a little curious as to how you came to those numbers, particularly on your off days. For me I'm trying to do 3k on training days, and 1800-2k on rest days but I'm cutting too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickRock13 View Post
    That is a lot of swing. I'm a little curious as to how you came to those numbers, particularly on your off days. For me I'm trying to do 3k on training days, and 1800-2k on rest days but I'm cutting too.
    What professor, I showed my math roof:

    The math makes sense though, it's going from +20% to -20%; that's a total swing of 40%, or almost half.

    Assuming my BMR is 2500, I add ~1000 cal on workout days (estimated on Livestrong.com). That gives me my maintenance, which I then add 20% to, so
    2500 + 1000 = 3500 + 20% (700) = 4200.

    For rest days, assuming I do nothing, my BMR alone (maintenance) will be 2500. Off days supposed to shoot for 20% below maintenance so:
    2500 - 20% - 2000.

    For a BMR of 2500 calories and exercise of 1000 calories:
    On day: 4200
    Off day: 2000
    Off day + 500cal cardio: 2400


    My actuals using real BMR (~2800cal) and exercise (~900cal) are closer to this:
    On day: 4400
    Off day: 2240
    Off day + 500cal cardio: 2640


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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Thanks, helps clear it up. I was thinking that was the case, but it just felt too good to be true! I have been eating like a freakin' KING, actually eating too much on some ocassions! Wow, that is even more awesome than I initially thought!

    For Rest days though, I don't lift, so have to cut out the Exercise portion and rely on my BMR and if I can get cardio in to let me eat. In this example, I'd be at BMR 2500 + cardio 500 = 3000 - 20% = 2400 total calories. Even worse it drops to 2000 caloris if I don't do cardio.

    Is it tough for everyone else to keep their calories restricted on off days? I just have the weekends off, but it is hard to turn off the feeding frenzy mode!!!

    Last weekend I had go running at 11PM (after running earlier in the day) to make-up for excess calories, and I was still over my restricted goal!
    Oh I see what you did there. MB actually outlined it so you would calculate that first number and then add or subtract right from there; as in you would only calculate one maintenance number. It's on p.11 of this document.

    But, the way you did it might be an even more useful way to measure it -- especially if you were on a cut! You could dip lower than his recommendation in the PDF (which I think is for "lean gains" as opposed to fat loss).

    Good stuff!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Oh I see what you did there. MB actually outlined it so you would calculate that first number and then add or subtract right from there; as in you would only calculate one maintenance number. It's on p.11 of this document.

    But, the way you did it might be an even more useful way to measure it -- especially if you were on a cut! You could dip lower than his recommendation in the PDF (which I think is for "lean gains" as opposed to fat loss).

    Good stuff!
    What's odd and concern's me in MB's document is that "maintenance" is the same for working days and days off. Wouldn't "maintenance" be higher if you're lifting hard for 90 minutes vs. doing nothing?
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    I think the goal is to eat approximately your maintenance calories, on average, each week. A few more calories on days you workout, a few less calories on days you don't. Not sure that being super technical is really necessary. Try it out and see what works for you.
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    Right, but my question is whether "maintenance" is BMR or BMR + exercise.

    BIG difference for me, I workout 5 days a week, so that'd be ~6000+ calories difference a week, or a day and a half of eating!

    It's not super technical, it's math! If I'm counting calories I want to know what the target is!


    But, without knowing any better I'm going to assume "maintenance" is BMR + exercise. My goals are 4400 calories on working days and 2240-2640 on non working days, depending on cardio. Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Right, but my question is whether "maintenance" is BMR or BMR + exercise.

    BIG difference for me, I workout 5 days a week, so that'd be ~6000+ calories difference a week, or a day and a half of eating!

    It's not super technical, it's math! If I'm counting calories I want to know what the target is!
    How much is your total maintenance for the week? Then divide by 7 to get daily, go 20% over that for workout days, 20% under for rest days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    How much is your total maintenance for the week? Then divide by 7 to get daily, go 20% over that for workout days, 20% under for rest days.
    Ahhhhhhh, you smart man you!

    2825 (BMR) + 900 (exercise) x 5 = 18,625
    2825 x 2 = 5,650

    18,635 + 5,650 = 24,275 / 7 = 3,470 avg. daily maintenance

    Working Days = 3,470 + 20% = 4,164
    Non-Working Days = 3,470 - 20% = 2,776
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    those workout days will be some good eating
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Ahhhhhhh, you smart man you!

    2825 (BMR) + 900 (exercise) x 5 = 18,625
    2825 x 2 = 5,650

    18,635 + 5,650 = 24,275 / 7 = 3,470 avg. daily maintenance

    Working Days = 3,470 + 20% = 4,164
    Non-Working Days = 3,470 - 20% = 2,776
    haha that's one way to do it! If on a lean bulk I think those figures would be great; but for fat loss, I actually liked the way you originally did it just as much especially in comparison to MB's suggestion.

    I think cutting calories lower on those off-days could enhance the fat loss properties of IF if that was the primary goal.
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    Interesting thread so far with everyone's experiences and opinions. I'll weigh in on my experience with IF;
    It does work and is beneficial although less so if you are extremely active every day. I find it pretty much the same as EOD cycling of calories (results wise) and the "fasting" part does not really impact any part of the diet except convenience(2-3 big meals instead of meals all day long).

    I also did not find my workouts to be as intense just as I did with straight calorie cycling. I also found it comparable to carb cycling in terms of results and energy.

    I think what IF does is gives another tool in the arsenal for the bodybuilding enthusiast as our lives are always changing and we need to adapt or fall by the wayside in terms of our goals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastRonin View Post
    Interesting thread so far with everyone's experiences and opinions. I'll weigh in on my experience with IF;
    It does work and is beneficial although less so if you are extremely active every day. I find it pretty much the same as EOD cycling of calories (results wise) and the "fasting" part does not really impact any part of the diet except convenience(2-3 big meals instead of meals all day long).

    I also did not find my workouts to be as intense just as I did with straight calorie cycling. I also found it comparable to carb cycling in terms of results and energy.

    I think what IF does is gives another tool in the arsenal for the bodybuilding enthusiast as our lives are always changing and we need to adapt or fall by the wayside in terms of our goals.
    How long have you been doing IF?

    I'm holding out on my opinion until based on results (other than the huge meals, yum!). So far I haven't noticed incredible "leaning" or "gaining" other than calorie cycling. That may be due to multiple factors and time. It is something to keep you guessing and learning, which is good IMO. However, it'll probably eventually pass as a fad too (not trying to be blasphemous)...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    haha that's one way to do it! If on a lean bulk I think those figures would be great; but for fat loss, I actually liked the way you originally did it just as much especially in comparison to MB's suggestion.

    I think cutting calories lower on those off-days could enhance the fat loss properties of IF if that was the primary goal.
    What I'll probably end up doing is shooting for the 4400 calories on working days but then looking at my weekly total calories and then play my off days by ear, based on my totals. I'm more in a lean bulk phase, so extra calories are okay to a degree...
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastRonin View Post
    It does work and is beneficial although less so if you are extremely active every day. I find it pretty much the same as EOD cycling of calories (results wise) and the "fasting" part does not really impact any part of the diet except convenience(2-3 big meals instead of meals all day long).
    Well, the fasting part is what has the largest effect on insulin sensitivity, HDL/LDL levels, and growth hormone release though, but those are also pretty subtle changes that occur over time.

    http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB...asp?Doi=177999

    http://www.ajcn.org/content/48/5/1197.short

    http://www.ams.ac.ir/AIM/0364/003.htm

    there are more. I particularly point to Ramadan based studies as its a similar feeding pattern, although a little different. But there are quite a lot of Ramadan based studies with decent amounts of participants available vs there not being many internmittent fasting ones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Well, the fasting part is what has the largest effect on insulin sensitivity, HDL/LDL levels, and growth hormone release though, but those are also pretty subtle changes that occur over time.

    http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB...asp?Doi=177999

    http://www.ajcn.org/content/48/5/1197.short

    http://www.ams.ac.ir/AIM/0364/003.htm

    there are more. I particularly point to Ramadan based studies as its a similar feeding pattern, although a little different. But there are quite a lot of Ramadan based studies with decent amounts of participants available vs there not being many internmittent fasting ones.

    I have read all that before. Frankly working out and eating healthy in general increases insulin sensitivity. There are no studies that compare the healthy active bodybuilder that fasts vs one that doesn't and any increases/decreases when pitted against each other. Nor are there any long term studies on this.
    I am basing my opinions on my own extensive experimentation with this diet and other similar ones. I have been reading MB's stuff (and other supporters of this style of eating)since its inception as well. It is no better than any other diet unless it works for you and your lifestyle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Well, looks like I'm taking a day off IF, going to Waffle House this morning with my wife.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    I sound stupid on what i said lol just understand after reading again.

    I feel the "pump" that can be from carbs + aminos. But never felt hipoglicemic!

    I drink the aminocarb drink then after training the EPIC meal of my dai

    When i do cardio/other BW exercises i continue the fasting without break it. I only use carb drink during the weight lifting sessions in the afternoon! normally at least 4x per week
    Makes much more sense now thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Yah you can add in some calorie dense foods, as long as most is good food... have fun...
    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Hmmm... with morning training, I think I should get as many cals in as soon as possible.

    Good idea about "borrowing" calories from other days! Perhaps tonight I'll "save" a few hundred for tomorrow. I'll probably be a bit more comfortable tonight and tomorrow that way. However, during the week I count on the previous night's calorie loading at the end of my 8hr window to be there for AM training the next day.

    Why couldn't it all be simple and cookie cutter! I just want to train and eat, thinking is for work!
    Honestly I just use my average for the week and have been successful. Use the KISS methodology. Part of the point of the Lean Gains diet is to create some simplicity in what has become overly and unnecessarily complicated by supplement companies selling you on the need for 6 meals daily which is very inconvenient.. UNLESS you use their convenient products.
    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    How much is your total maintenance for the week? Then divide by 7 to get daily, go 20% over that for workout days, 20% under for rest days.
    THIS!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastRonin View Post
    Interesting thread so far with everyone's experiences and opinions. I'll weigh in on my experience with IF;
    It does work and is beneficial although less so if you are extremely active every day. I find it pretty much the same as EOD cycling of calories (results wise) and the "fasting" part does not really impact any part of the diet except convenience(2-3 big meals instead of meals all day long).

    I also did not find my workouts to be as intense just as I did with straight calorie cycling. I also found it comparable to carb cycling in terms of results and energy.

    I think what IF does is gives another tool in the arsenal for the bodybuilding enthusiast as our lives are always changing and we need to adapt or fall by the wayside in terms of our goals.
    I do notice more Leaning out effects myself. I also can feel my metabolism shift into overdrive when I eat. I get physically warmer as my body digest the bigger meal. However even MB stated that it does not matter whether you spread it over 6 meals or eat everything in one meal the thermic effect of each energy substrate is constant and will require the same amount of energy to make use of said foods. So 4000 calories of the same ratios will have exactly the same thermic effect. I think there are definitely many who are very well suited to this type of eating. I think it has more to do with a persons hormonal reaction to food than anything else. The Insulin / Glucagon axis, and more importantly a persons insulin sensitivity.

    More than anything else as i mentioned above when responding to Milas is that Lean Gains is easier / simpler to follow for me. I get the convenience of 1-3 larger meals depending on how I feel like splitting it up and get to eat a lot more choices of food some that are not considered clean or would never be eaten on a cut. So for me what really makes this better is not just that I do notice more leaning effects from it but that I can enjoy my food more and still get as good or better results than on a strict, boring 5-6 meals a day type of diet that I have drudgingly followed as if taking medicine for years... That and I will definitely follow it longer because it is not as strict. Even doing it as a lifestyle type diet not counting every little thing worked very well for me. There is not I have been restricting myself for 3 months someone let me strap on a feed bag and go to town which leads to a festival of gluttony until I am back to my prior pre-dieted physique and frustrated with myself for slipping from the discipline required to maintain it. I need discipline from 4:30AM until Noon then I can eat good foods. If I want to eat all of it in 1 meal I can and there are no ill effects, if I want to use the full 8 hour window I do that. That is why Lean Gains is my choice and why Martin set out to create it in the first place. He was tired of the dogmatic following of the 6 meal a day regime that required nonstop discipline until you backslid. Wanted something simpler and just as effective if not more so.

    If I can follow Intermittent Fasting almost indefinitely due to it's leniency, and can only force myself to eat extremely disciplined for a few months at a time with a traditional approach to dieting then I will make more progress with Lean Gains. Not that I couldn't make the same progress with the traditional approach but I would be less satisfied with my overall situation in general. Always feeling like I was denying myself something I want or crave is not an overly satisfying way to live for me. Before I sacrificed that for the physique and now I do not have to. That is why I love Intermittent Fasting. Not trying to talk anyone into anything as this is just me explaining why I love it and have adopted it.

    Another thing to remember is that there is not any requirement for the non training days to be low carb. He has it laid out that way for some people but he also speaks out against ketosis diets and anything that is that severe regarding avoiding any macro-nutrient. If carb sensitive which he expects you to know or discover for yourself yes lower carbs are what you need. Someone who is not carb sensitive could easily be taking in 300-400 grams of carbs on non training day and 500-600 on training days, depending on caloric needs and insulin sensitivity. He recommends lower carbs on non training days but this means lower than training days not lower as in low carb. Ya feel me?

    I am carb sensitive so my carb levels are lower 100-150 non training and 200-250 on training days, but that is specific to me. If you can eat a fugton of carbs without any ill effects then by all means rip that sh*t up!!!!
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    how did u guys figure out your bmr
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    http://www.personaltrainertoday.com/...metabolic-rate

    Easy stuff man! I know my activity level and my body type as well as having a slightly slower metabolism than typical so I simply multiply my body weight by 12-13 to include activity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by freezito View Post
    how did u guys figure out your bmr
    I kept track of my calories and adjusted the amount I was eating until my body weight stabilized. Then I knew.
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    Glad it's working for ya kleen. Like I said diets there are many paths for many individuals. For me the fast part wasn't any different results wise than any other similar diet or cutting program, and I am pretty sure I have ran it longer than anyone on this thread. Maybe not though, I haven't read through every post. I still prefer my own tweaked out diet combination and eating around 5 meals a day.
    Most people I see doing diets could likely reach their goals if they just ate cleaner and stuck with it. The main point about any bodybuilding diet or workout plan is sticking to it IMO. You have to experiment to know what works for ya though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    http://www.personaltrainertoday.com/...metabolic-rate

    Easy stuff man! I know my activity level and my body type as well as having a slightly slower metabolism than typical so I simply multiply my body weight by 12-13 to include activity.
    I've never actually figured mine out. Maybe I will do that just to see what I come up with and compare it to what I have guesstimated for so long....
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    I know IF can help me break away from eating every few hours, but I still do that during my 8hr window. I have my lunch at noon, 2 separate snacks at work afterwards, my postworkout shake, and finally my last meal. I like it spread out that way though so its more preference and routine I guess. I have been doing the I/F diet for a little over a week and have seen some leaning out in my midsection and have become very accustomed to this way of eating. I really don't see any reason to go back to eating any other way.
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    I work at 7AM and my last meal of the day is around 8PM. MY breaks at work vary and I want to try this diet, but I am not sure how to go about it. Wake up at 6, Take 10G bcaa and ALCAR with dexaprine and then i usually work from 7am to 4pm so should I not eat that whole time, then hit the gym around 430 and THEN have my first meal post workout around 630? Seems like ill have very little calorie intake, and how could I get my protein in? Is a shake in the morning or throughout the day okay?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rojasdave View Post
    I work at 7AM and my last meal of the day is around 8PM. MY breaks at work vary and I want to try this diet, but I am not sure how to go about it. Wake up at 6, Take 10G bcaa and ALCAR with dexaprine and then i usually work from 7am to 4pm so should I not eat that whole time, then hit the gym around 430 and THEN have my first meal post workout around 630? Seems like ill have very little calorie intake, and how could I get my protein in? Is a shake in the morning or throughout the day okay?
    Eat 20% of daily calories at 1-2PM, shake or otherwise. I personally prefer whole food though, helps with hunger.
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    I'm working so hard at funding my BMR and rmr and counting calories and doing this and that, I hope it pays off
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    Hey just got this email. Thought it would apply:

    My mom sent me a text the other day about a study out of the
    University of Utah (She's always looking out for me!). Apparently,
    according to this study, people who fast one day a month are
    40 percent less likely to be diagnosed with clogged arteries than those
    who did not regularly fast.

    Sounds like great news, especially if you are like me and fast
    6 to 8 times per month.

    Unfortunately, after looking over the study, I did a google
    search to see what the newswires were reporting and found
    some very disheartening news bytes.

    According to an article I found on Yahoo News, when asked to
    comment on the study a doctor from the Mayo
    Clinic (who was not involved in the study), stated "Fasting
    resets the metabolic rate".

    Now I'm not sure what this particular Doc meant by "resets", and he
    was probably speaking about long term fasting,
    but the author of the article on Yahoo News added these
    words after Doc's quote "slowing it down to adjust to
    less food and forcing the body to store calories as soon as
    people resume eating".
    These words cannot possibly be from the Doctor. They just can't
    be. There is no way I can accept that a doctor being interviewed
    about research would make such an incorrect statement, especially
    since it was in reference to a 24 hour fast.

    This begs the question, why is the mainstream media so
    afraid to tell people to eat less? Why is it that when research
    on the benefit of brief periods of fasting comes out, people
    have to comment on the dangers of long term chronic fasting.
    Instead of just explaining that as little as one 24 hour fast
    per month can reduce your chances of being diagnosed with
    clogged arteries, they have to start digging to find something,
    (completely unrelated to the study), so they can throw some
    negative comments into the fray.

    If you've read Eat Stop Eat, you know that metabolism does
    not decrease during brief fasting. This has been found in lean and
    obese people, men and women, adults and children. The research
    is really very strong in this area! In fact, evidence suggests that
    your metabolism may even go UP during a fast!

    I know it will be an up hill battle, but my goal is to make
    the use of brief periods of fasting a respected and established
    method of weight control...because it is easy and because it
    works.

    RECOVERBRO


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    ^^^Looks like second hand, non-sourced garbage to me.

    Find that study from Utah - that'd be worth discussing. MDs typically know jack about nutrition, so the opinion of one doc means nothing.
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    yah I signed up for e-mails from this. After I went to the lean gains site. Im looking inot this more later today. Just thought id share

    RECOVERBRO


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