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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsexy74 View Post
    so i have read up alot on the lg site, and wanted your guys opinions/experience. I've been seeing people who have some heavy cream in their coffee in the am before breaking the fast and some who say it ruins it. What have you all done? What are your thoughts. I've followed this for a couple weeks now and have dropped almost 10 lbs while having 4 tbsp of heavy cream in my am coffee.
    I agree with RickRock -- keep truckin' with what you're doing now.

    If, however, things begin to stall, you could consider switching to a low-calorie creamer or something similar to replace the heavy cream -- there are some pretty tasty ones out there!

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    will do fellas, thanks for the input
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    ok, today sucks. I did legs from 7am-8am, and realized I have a dentist appointment for teeth cleaning from 12-1. Which means my mouth won't be in the mood for eating right after. ugh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    ok, today sucks. I did legs from 7am-8am, and realized I have a dentist appointment for teeth cleaning from 12-1. Which means my mouth won't be in the mood for eating right after. ugh.
    That'll help you on the "lean" part, though I don't know about gains...

    Good luck at the dentist!
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    I have missed the fast breaker before, it really is not a big deal, shift your start time and go from there. All it means is more fat burning.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    I just broke my fast....

    One whole rotisserie chicken, half a bag of frozen califlower (fake mashed potatoes), and some protein pudding.

    What a ridiculous meal haha

    I'll only eat one more time today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernLord View Post
    I just broke my fast....

    One whole rotisserie chicken, half a bag of frozen califlower (fake mashed potatoes), and some protein pudding.

    What a ridiculous meal haha

    I'll only eat one more time today.
    You missed my 3K calorie Indian Buffet in another thread. E-P-I-C! and only $6!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    You missed my 3K calorie Indian Buffet in another thread. E-P-I-C! and only $6!
    Epic!!!!

    I'm assuming it was a cheat meal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernLord View Post
    Epic!!!!

    I'm assuming it was a cheat meal?
    The first rule of Lean Gains is there are no cheat meals!

    But yeah, I would classify it as that!

    2 hyuge servings of Butter chicken
    2 hyuge servings of Saag
    2 Tandoori Chicken legs
    3 Samosas
    4 servings Naan
    3 big servings curried vegetables
    1 bowl rice dessert (forgot name)
    5 Gulab Jamun balls w/loads of syrup

    and when I got home I had a brownie, a glass of milk, and passed out for the evening (8PM)

    I was at about 5600 calories for the day, a bit above my 4400 target (20% over maintenance)!

    This morning, cleared it ALL out before quads!
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    Awesome haha

    I swear after eating a huge meal like this my metabolism goes crazy. I can feel my core temp rise shortly after eating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernLord View Post
    Awesome haha

    I swear after eating a huge meal like this my metabolism goes crazy. I can feel my core temp rise shortly after eating.
    Yes, I was dripping sweat, and not from the spices! I could feel myself slip into a carb coma though, insulin must've been crazy and not known what to do.

    I had also taken 2 Glycobol before going. In hindsight, maybe I should've used 4-5!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Yes, I was dripping sweat, and not from the spices! I could feel myself slip into a carb coma though, insulin must've been crazy and not known what to do.
    Man I swear I can feel that process happening too. I had a real big meal with tons of baked sweet potato sticks and afterwards I was just wobbling around with my eyes half-closed, like this -->
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    that happened to me after lunch, but it wasn't even that carb heavy. a banana, an apple and 2 slices of sprouted grain bread (plus a huge chicken breast + peanut butter)
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernLord View Post
    Awesome haha

    I swear after eating a huge meal like this my metabolism goes crazy. I can feel my core temp rise shortly after eating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Man I swear I can feel that process happening too. I had a real big meal with tons of baked sweet potato sticks and afterwards I was just wobbling around with my eyes half-closed, like this -->
    Is baked sweet potato sticks another way to say french fries without sounding bad???? Yeah I get carb stupors sometime too. Especially if I don't have much fat with the meal.
    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    that happened to me after lunch, but it wasn't even that carb heavy. a banana, an apple and 2 slices of sprouted grain bread (plus a huge chicken breast + peanut butter)
    I see about 90 grams of carbs there.

    I get HOT after a big meal too. Speaking of, I need to go eat again so my stomach is not full for my second lift of the day. Dead lifts then another 1000 calories down the hatch!!!! Honestly I get hotter from eating large quantities of protein than any other nutrient.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Is baked sweet potato sticks another way to say french fries without sounding bad???? Yeah I get carb stupors sometime too. Especially if I don't have much fat with the meal.
    haha I know it sounds like it! We use a little canola oil (just enough to prevent sticking) and fry them in a skillet for a few minutes till they brown a bit -- then throw them in the oven to bake for awhile. It really cuts back on the amount of fat in comparison to regular french fries, which are simply destructive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    haha I know it sounds like it! We use a little canola oil (just enough to prevent sticking) and fry them in a skillet for a few minutes till they brown a bit -- then throw them in the oven to bake for awhile. It really cuts back on the amount of fat in comparison to regular french fries, which are simply destructive.
    I LOVE those sweet potato fries! I've had to cut back to baking them though, I was using too much oil. They still taste good baked with salt, pepper and lots of cinnamon (and I like to put syrup on them too, sometimes Walden Farms, sometimes the real stuff...).
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    I do them in my deep fryer, peanut oil only. And honey drizzled over them is fantastic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    I LOVE those sweet potato fries! I've had to cut back to baking them though, I was using too much oil. They still taste good baked with salt, pepper and lots of cinnamon (and I like to put syrup on them too, sometimes Walden Farms, sometimes the real stuff...).
    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I do them in my deep fryer, peanut oil only. And honey drizzled over them is fantastic
    I like to steam them and then mash them with brown sugar or honey, cinnamon and crushed nuts. Sometimes I fore go the honey and just use splenda, I am sure stevia would be good too.

    Another thing I like that probably sounds wierd is 1 cup fat free cottage cheese with a table spoon of splenda and cinnamon to taste. This is like dessert for me. As a matter of fact I am having this as part of my final meal of the night.
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    I can destroy some cottage cheese. Cottage cheese, sugar free preserves, and frozen mixed berries ftw!

    Plain greek yogurt is good like this too.
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    Cottage cheese with bacon crumble.. Nomnomnom...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Folkmetalhead View Post
    Cottage cheese with bacon crumble.. Nomnomnom...
    aw yeah, throw a little hot sauce in there on occasion as well.
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    Right now i'm 180 and this was my current cutting diet, but now i'm looking to bulk up. I suppose it's pretty simple, I could just double what I eat now. This diet is going to be while on a cycle of AndroMass, then after a month of that going back to this with AndroLean. Can someone edit this up a little for me to get around 3500-4000 cals, if that would even be good while on cycle. And also as it states meal frequency doesn't matter, I would be able to eat another meal between 12-4pm

    12PM (fast break): 687 cal, 87g pro, 66g carb (14g fiber), 11g fat
    10oz tuna/chicken 333 cal, 73 pro, 0 carb, 4g fat
    1 cup brocolli 54 cal, 4g pro, 12g carb (6g fiber), 1g fat
    1 cup oats or sweet potato 300 cal, 10g pro, 54g carb (8g fiber), 6g fat

    3PM Snack: 505 cal, 21g pro, 39g carb (7g fiber), 30.5g fat
    1 banana 105 cal, 1g pro, 27g carb (3g fiber), .5g fat
    4Tbsp Naturally More PB 400cal, 20g pro, 12g carb (4g fiber), 30g fat

    PWO or 6PM Dinner: 654 cal, 76g pro, 82g carb (19g fiber), 7.5g fat
    10oz chicken/extra lean beef/fish 275 cal, 57.5g pro, 0g carb, 6g fat
    3 cups spinach 123 cal, 16g pro, 21g carb (13g fiber), 1.5g fat
    8oz baked sweet potato 256 cal, 2.4g pro, 61g carb (6g fiber), 0g fat

    7:30PM Dessert:
    Protein Shake - 140 cal, 27 pro, 3 carb, 0 fat


    Totals: 1986 cal, 211g pro, 190g carb (40g fiber), 39g fat


    Also I sort of believe since i'll be bulking while on cycle, couldn't a basically eat as much as I wanted, as long as it is going to be lean meats with veggies and some potatoes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by xigotmailx View Post
    Also I sort of believe since i'll be bulking while on cycle, couldn't a basically eat as much as I wanted, as long as it is going to be lean meats with veggies and some potatoes?
    That depends a lot on how much you *want* to eat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xigotmailx View Post
    Also I sort of believe since i'll be bulking while on cycle, couldn't a basically eat as much as I wanted, as long as it is going to be lean meats with veggies and some potatoes?
    What is your BMR, and how many calories do you burn through exercise (weights and cardio)? This would be your maintenance calories. For bulking, shoot for 20% over maintenance.

    When on anabolics, you can't eat however much you want, calories are calories whether they come from cake or chicken. If you eat 6K calories and only burn 3K, you'll get fat. That's why you only shoot for 20% over, so you have excess to build muscle but not so much that you add tons of fat.

    I'm guessing you'll want to shoot for ~3500 calories, but you should calculate maintenance for yourself first. Check out livestrong.com and set up an account, it'll help for tracking calories daily too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grippo View Post
    I'm on my last week, so coming off this weekend. Gained 10 lbs while cutting about 2% BF. I ate mostly paleo through the cycle, so I plan on sticking to that and adding some good carbs here at the end and PCT. The +/- 20% sounds like a good idea too.

    I am looking to do IF as long as possible and wanted to try it PCT to see how much mass I could actually keep, even if I lose most of what I gained, I'll still be leaner, which is the goal right now. Really want to prove a lot of skeptics wrong about IF causing muscle loss.

    Otherwise, it fits my lifestyle and I love to eat a couple big meals instead of 5-6 small meals. Fasted sprints and training has been great, lifts are still going up and the day goes by quickly when I'm not thinking about food. Work flies by, then I workout followed by my reward! Can't beat it.

    I'll update on my weight/BF during PCT.
    Update: weight holding at 224, feeling lean AND keeping the weight on! I'll update with BF later today. I've been 'experimenting' on what I can/can't eat and found out I can eat pretty much anything in moderation (ice cream, pancakes, etc..). I'm typically very sensitive to carbs and had good results from a low carb/paleo diet, losing about 30 lbs in 3 months. I love being able to eat carbs again and I'm pretty sure this is why I've been able to keep my size after my last oral cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xigotmailx View Post
    Right now i'm 180 and this was my current cutting diet, but now i'm looking to bulk up. I suppose it's pretty simple, I could just double what I eat now. This diet is going to be while on a cycle of AndroMass, then after a month of that going back to this with AndroLean. Can someone edit this up a little for me to get around 3500-4000 cals, if that would even be good while on cycle. And also as it states meal frequency doesn't matter, I would be able to eat another meal between 12-4pm

    12PM (fast break): 687 cal, 87g pro, 66g carb (14g fiber), 11g fat
    10oz tuna/chicken 333 cal, 73 pro, 0 carb, 4g fat
    1 cup brocolli 54 cal, 4g pro, 12g carb (6g fiber), 1g fat
    1 cup oats or sweet potato 300 cal, 10g pro, 54g carb (8g fiber), 6g fat

    3PM Snack: 505 cal, 21g pro, 39g carb (7g fiber), 30.5g fat
    1 banana 105 cal, 1g pro, 27g carb (3g fiber), .5g fat
    4Tbsp Naturally More PB 400cal, 20g pro, 12g carb (4g fiber), 30g fat

    PWO or 6PM Dinner: 654 cal, 76g pro, 82g carb (19g fiber), 7.5g fat
    10oz chicken/extra lean beef/fish 275 cal, 57.5g pro, 0g carb, 6g fat
    3 cups spinach 123 cal, 16g pro, 21g carb (13g fiber), 1.5g fat
    8oz baked sweet potato 256 cal, 2.4g pro, 61g carb (6g fiber), 0g fat

    7:30PM Dessert:
    Protein Shake - 140 cal, 27 pro, 3 carb, 0 fat


    Totals: 1986 cal, 211g pro, 190g carb (40g fiber), 39g fat


    Also I sort of believe since i'll be bulking while on cycle, couldn't a basically eat as much as I wanted, as long as it is going to be lean meats with veggies and some potatoes?
    Not going to write up a diet here for you but recommendations. get in 100 grams or more of protein in the meal following your lift. Add another meal. Preferably MORE Post workout, if that means you ad a second post workout meal where you are having the dessert then that is where i would put it.

    Also are you as lean as you actually want to be? If you are not then you should NOT be running a bulk. On top of that bulks in Lean Gains are saved for those in the single digits. So if you are not as lean as you want to be then I recommend you simply follow the Recomp plan posted in the first link of the second post in this thread. If the Andromass is working and doing it's thing you will gain plenty of muscle while you continue leaning up so that should be the goal. Then once you are as lean as you want to be then move the rest days up to maintenance and see how that works for you. However you really need to have an idea of what your maintenance is, or make a generalized assumption off of one of the various methods provided earlier in the thread and go with that. A pretty general one would be 13-14 times your body weight. For those with average metabolisms that is generally a good place to start unless you have an extremely active lifestyle.

    Also consider this, cutting during PCT or just after is not recommended unless you are using non suppressive anabolics such as Osta or even S4. Otherwise you will lose a large amount of the muscle you just gained. So with summer coming you may want to actually get leaner than you intend to stay while on cycle so that the calories you are eating to maintain you once in PCT don't end up making you a little sloppy. IE give yourself some wiggle room. Now that is only a suggestion based off of aesthetics, but if you are simply concerned with size then don't give that a second thought.
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    I think I blew my off day today, I went to that middle eastern all you can eat buffet for lunch. God I love goat curry and tandori chicken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I think I blew my off day today, I went to that middle eastern all you can eat buffet for lunch. God I love goat curry and tandori chicken.
    If your going to blow it, blow it with high protein.. which apprently takes much more energy to convert to fat...
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I think I blew my off day today, I went to that middle eastern all you can eat buffet for lunch. God I love goat curry and tandori chicken.
    MMMMMM!!!!!! It isn't blow until you choose to continue to eat that way. You could easily stop eating now and I bet you don't come close to your off day cals. So hold off and have a small dinner. That is what I do when I overstep during a meal. Just adjust the rest of the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    If your going to blow it, blow it with high protein.. which apprently takes much more energy to convert to fat...
    That and the thermic effect of protein is just higher than carbs or fats. So they require more calories just to turn them into energy that can be used.
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    Just do some extra cardio tonight, that would offset the extra calories.

    Or just enjoy the extra nutrients!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    MMMMMM!!!!!! It isn't blow until you choose to continue to eat that way. You could easily stop eating now and I bet you don't come close to your off day cals. So hold off and have a small dinner. That is what I do when I overstep during a meal. Just adjust the rest of the day.
    effectively thats my plan, dinner will just be an oversized chicken breast with salad greens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Also are you as lean as you actually want to be? If you are not then you should NOT be running a bulk. On top of that bulks in Lean Gains are saved for those in the single digits. So if you are not as lean as you want to be then I recommend you simply follow the Recomp plan posted in the first link of the second post in this thread.
    I totally agree with your post and especially the concept above -- it's relatively easy to stay lean once you get there with LG/IF, so I definitely concur that you want to get to your ideal leanness goal before bulking with extra calories. This allows for you fine tune your intake to pinpoint that narrow calorie range where you're eating an optimal surplus to slowly build muscle with minimal fat gain.

    xigotmailx, I would look into continuing your cut until you reach your desired leanness and then using the AndroMass to help add a few lean pounds once you're there. Actually, if you just switch the AndroMass and AndroLean layout you described above and run AndroLean with an LG fat loss protocol first it could help you progress your current cut before switching back to focusing on adding muscle. But it's ultimately up to you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Just do some extra cardio tonight, that would offset the extra calories.

    Or just enjoy the extra nutrients!
    Yah I do that too, better still if I want to eat extra I just do enough cardio to cover my caloric intake ahead of time. Pay for it before I eat it... I have done cardio the next morning for some slight overeating on a Friday night. Nothing too drastic though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milas View Post
    Just do some extra cardio tonight, that would offset the extra calories.
    I'd have to be doing some cardio already to be able to do extra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    I totally agree with your post and especially the concept above -- it's relatively easy to stay lean once you get there with LG/IF, so I definitely concur that you want to get to your ideal leanness goal before bulking with extra calories. This allows for you fine tune your intake to pinpoint that narrow calorie range where you're eating an optimal surplus to slowly build muscle with minimal fat gain.
    Good to know, after contest I can just lean bulk no problem and still remain very lean during the off season. This is a total change of lifestyle and I like it!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I'd have to be doing some cardio already to be able to do extra
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    Although I just really don't think on meal, or one day is any kind of deal breaker with IF. I would definitely NOT DO EXTRA CARDIO to make up for anything. That is just me. If I was getting ready for a contest or something maybe but then again if getting ready for a contest I would not have blown the day so where is the urgency to burn them off.

    If in general just trying to make improvements the quality of your life should be as minimally affected as possible. Me taking an extra 30 minutes of unplanned cardio time to make up for really enjoying myself on occasion would just be silly, and needlessly obsessive to me. Adjusting the intake later is minimal impact, and or just saying damn that was good and moving on with the day like nothing happened are the only options I would take. Of course I am all about proving that it doesn't have to be so black and white or so obsessive. I tried to do the counting thing again but honestly just keeping track of estimations is working well for me right now. I know when I mess up, I know because I make a conscious decision that it is worth it to me at that moment. Of course when fat loss slows or muscle mass increases stop then I look and say well I have had 4 questionable meals this week no wonder I am not losing, or look I know I didn't get enough calories on 2 of my lift days no wonder my LBM is not reacting the way I want it to. I am leaning up rapidly still recomping and totally enjoying life this way.

    Of course I have mentioned it a few times that even with me being "loose" in my logging of food I know basically what I have eaten throughout the day. I have a running tally of my estimations and several of my meals are permanet fixtures in my diet so I look at them and know OKay 780 cals there 100 pro, 65 carbs yada yada just automatically.

    I guess the message here is don't be too obsessed with the "perfect" ratios, or the exact amount of calories. A good ball park estimate if you are familiar enough with food should be just fine. We will see how much more detail I need to put into it as I go below 9% which should be within the next week or two. I think closer to 7% I may have to pay more attention but we will see.

    My goal with eating, and training progress is, How easy and simplified can we make it and still get great results. So that is why it seems I am anti- micromanaging when it comes to diet. It is definitely the MOST INCONVENIENT part of the lifting game. I am just trying to push that envelope regarding how far i can take it with estimates and a few true up type checks along the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Although I just really don't think on meal, or one day is any kind of deal breaker with IF. I would definitely NOT DO EXTRA CARDIO to make up for anything. That is just me. If I was getting ready for a contest or something maybe but then again if getting ready for a contest I would not have blown the day so where is the urgency to burn them off.

    If in general just trying to make improvements the quality of your life should be as minimally affected as possible. Me taking an extra 30 minutes of unplanned cardio time to make up for really enjoying myself on occasion would just be silly, and needlessly obsessive to me. Adjusting the intake later is minimal impact, and or just saying damn that was good and moving on with the day like nothing happened are the only options I would take. Of course I am all about proving that it doesn't have to be so black and white or so obsessive. I tried to do the counting thing again but honestly just keeping track of estimations is working well for me right now. I know when I mess up, I know because I make a conscious decision that it is worth it to me at that moment. Of course when fat loss slows or muscle mass increases stop then I look and say well I have had 4 questionable meals this week no wonder I am not losing, or look I know I didn't get enough calories on 2 of my lift days no wonder my LBM is not reacting the way I want it to. I am leaning up rapidly still recomping and totally enjoying life this way.

    Of course I have mentioned it a few times that even with me being "loose" in my logging of food I know basically what I have eaten throughout the day. I have a running tally of my estimations and several of my meals are permanet fixtures in my diet so I look at them and know OKay 780 cals there 100 pro, 65 carbs yada yada just automatically.

    I guess the message here is don't be too obsessed with the "perfect" ratios, or the exact amount of calories. A good ball park estimate if you are familiar enough with food should be just fine. We will see how much more detail I need to put into it as I go below 9% which should be within the next week or two. I think closer to 7% I may have to pay more attention but we will see.

    My goal with eating, and training progress is, How easy and simplified can we make it and still get great results. So that is why it seems I am anti- micromanaging when it comes to diet. It is definitely the MOST INCONVENIENT part of the lifting game. I am just trying to push that envelope regarding how far i can take it with estimates and a few true up type checks along the way.
    Yah I have a prep right around the corner and I enjoy being on top of things, I am obsessive so I am pretty comfortable with it, but I do like the idea that I can relax a bit come the off season after my contest. As long as it does not become habit forming. Another reason for my micro-management is the fact that I am still trying to guage my body's reaction and the more I know the more I can relax, if that makes sense.
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Completely, I am sure you remember me being allover the place with this. Testing things. I imagine if I count every little thing I would make better progress but for now the progress is mind boggling with the effort and time I put into diet. I have never has such a successful recomp.

    I don't expect most people to fall into the category I have put myself in. At least at our level. We got here by being meticulous about diet. I don't currently have anything looming so I have no pressure and can really just test what is possible with minimal attention to the details. Like say right now I have not broken my fast as of yet. It is a cardio day. Now I am gonna go walk for an hour and come back and IF I feel like it is time for me to eat I will. If not hungry I will ride it out until later or even this evening and have a big meal. I found 2 nice sized big meals feel great to me on cardio days and still allows me to have a good bit of freedom in my choices. If I only want to go to say 150 grams of carbs that leaves me 75 per meal or 100 in my fast breaker and 50 in my last meal. However I feel like breaking it up really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Completely, I am sure you remember me being allover the place with this. Testing things. I imagine if I count every little thing I would make better progress but for now the progress is mind boggling with the effort and time I put into diet. I have never has such a successful recomp.

    I don't expect most people to fall into the category I have put myself in. At least at our level. We got here by being meticulous about diet. I don't currently have anything looming so I have no pressure and can really just test what is possible with minimal attention to the details. Like say right now I have not broken my fast as of yet. It is a cardio day. Now I am gonna go walk for an hour and come back and IF I feel like it is time for me to eat I will. If not hungry I will ride it out until later or even this evening and have a big meal. I found 2 nice sized big meals feel great to me on cardio days and still allows me to have a good bit of freedom in my choices. If I only want to go to say 150 grams of carbs that leaves me 75 per meal or 100 in my fast breaker and 50 in my last meal. However I feel like breaking it up really.
    Hah that's what I have been thinking .. extending my fast on off days to increase my satisfaction when I reduce calories further. I will be going down to 2100 on off days and I don't want to spread that over 3 meals... I will be much more satisfied waiting till 5pm and gorging a bit...
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