Keto Diet questions

[bla55]

Hey everyone,

I am planning on starting to go keto starting this monday but had a few questions regarding how exactly the full diet works. I've read a couple of articles and some logs, but I just wanted to make sure before I start this thing.

First of, I'm planning to go for about 4-6 weeks, just wanted to get some of the extra weight off, would that be enough or too little? I will not be drinking at all during this time either and working out about 5x a week.

As I have understood, keeping under 30g carbs is best while doing this, where I am confused is some people say to have a carb up day, some people say to go full keto, so what's the deal? And as I understand, proteins and fat are good so if I go with bacon, sausages, etc, as long as I keep it under 30g of carbs I should be ok, right?

Another thing, there seem to be a few carbs that don't count as I understand. Was wondering what those were. Lettuce? Onions? Mushrooms? Eggplants? Broccoli? How about fruit like Apple? Any of those that I can consume "at will"?

As far as milk goes, am I aiming for fat free or 2% or what? Same deal with cheeses. Which one is best? Fat free or fat full?

I was also planning on taking Leviathan Reloaded, will that be ok or get in the way?

After the 6 weeks, what should I do to make sure I don't gain everything back in a week? I've never been high carb in my diet, but I would be drinking every now and then after such.

Thanks for any and all input.

 

[MAxximal]

http://books.google.com/books?id=JtCZBe-2XVIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=ketogenic+diet&source=bl&ots=dMRNd1CWDF&sig=NavtsoP8s6AJO1F5zHw8eGOSMPg&hl=en&ei=8OUoTf7wFIO8lQezy6iTAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[notanymore]

Green veggies great on keto. I keep it simple with lettuce, broccoli, green beans, or spinach with most meals. Think mushrooms are fine but onions/apples/milk have too many carbs. Yes to keeping it under 30g of carbs per day, I usually consume some carbs post-workout. Carb-up definitely needed if you are workout out 5x a week. Think I'd die without a carb load at least every 10 days.

 

[bla55]

Darn, that was a great guide but I guess I reached my limit of free pages...

Guess a few things really helped there, and as I understand milk is no good? Not even fat free?

 

[notanymore]

No too many carbs in milk all together. Can save the fat free milk for the carb up or a post workout shake if you wanted. The veggie carbs are all loaded with fiber while milk is natural sugar carbs.

 

[MAxximal]

Milk have LACTOSE=Sugar

 

[ssbackwards]

I believe thedarkhalf has a huge keto thread. Take a look at it a ton of great info

 

[MAxximal]

I believe thedarkhalf has a huge keto thread. Take a look at it a ton of great info

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/weight-loss/157992-thedarkhalfs-guide-keto.html

 

[bla55]

Thanks! That was an awesome reading.

My very last question as I just got back from my grocery shopping and am now stacked with sausage, chicken and beef as well as mushroom, green beans and spinach: Supplements

I am currently taking Leviathan, Life Support, Adam, Fish Oil and ZMA before bed. Any of these bad boys may hinder anything?

Thanks again for all the support

 

[notanymore]

Should be good to go with those. Sometimes the first couple of weeks feel like hell. I personally don't keep carbs in the house when I'm on keto due to cravings.

Pork skins a life saver when craving the crunch and heavy whipping cream with a little cocoa powder or protein powder with pb for other cravings.

 

[bla55]

I've been pretty damn good about my diet for 4 - 5 days now, closest I've ever gotten to carbs was lettuce.

I have been taking Leviathan and I do often drink 2 cups of coffee in the morning when I get to work (I need to be awake somehow...) and then usually 2 cups of green tea in the afternoon. I've tried the keto stix but they just kinda seem to show trace to moderate. I'm guessing their reading will be extremely off due to the diuretics / the amount of water I drink on a daily basis? (I would say I drink almost 2 gallons a day)

 

[MakaveliThaDon]

I was never a fan of SUPER low carb keto diets. To me <30g of carbs a day is uneccessary. I mean maybe if you have a desk job and are not very active, then you would get good results on that. Personally my keto diets consist of more like 70-80g of carbs a day, on normal carb days, and then 2 days of the week I go a bit lower and keep it around 50g a day.

Then again I also do an hour plus of weights a day, and 45min-1hr of cardio 7 days a week as well.

 

[youngandfree]

Don't put to much weight on keto sticks. When hydrated like you are, you're urine will be diluted enough to not get a good reading. I guess you can use them to measure level of hydration. If you get a really dark reading, you need more water. I just never used them.

 

[bikeswimlive]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/weight-loss/157992-thedarkhalfs-guide-keto.html

Awesome reading.

 

[bla55]

I have been doing this for maybe the last 9 days, haven't really lost any lbs per say. Have been working out extremely hard which I had not done in the last 3 months.

I haven't counted calories but I try to keep a good balance and keep small portions, ie, 2 sausages for breakfast, protein shake mid morning, 2 egg omelet with cheese and a brat for lunch, protein shake mid afternoon, some peanuts, and then light dinner with either 2 - 3 chicken breasts, or shrimp or some meat.

I am 227lbs so I wouldn't say I'm going over my calories, would I? I am around the 20% fat mark. I was slightly surprised that I have yet to drop a few lbs. I drink a lot of water as I've mentioned and have been taking those supplements. I also take about 7g of fish oil a day.

I had not really taken measurements so I can't comment there, I did take some yesterday but couldn't tell if I've lost any inches I guess.

Thoughts?

 

[bla55]

Any thoughts?

 

[crux]

I've been pretty damn good about my diet for 4 - 5 days now, closest I've ever gotten to carbs was lettuce.

I have been taking Leviathan and I do often drink 2 cups of coffee in the morning when I get to work (I need to be awake somehow...) and then usually 2 cups of green tea in the afternoon. I've tried the keto stix but they just kinda seem to show trace to moderate. I'm guessing their reading will be extremely off due to the diuretics / the amount of water I drink on a daily basis? (I would say I drink almost 2 gallons a day)

When I was doing a CKD diet I read more than once not to consume caffeine, as it will kick you out of ketosis. It takes time to get back into fat burning so you really don't want to be wasting your time. Sugar alcohols, while carb-free, also can kick you out. I did a 5 day heavy training traing, with more cardio after workouts early in the week, and then a full body circuit right before my weekend carb load on simple sugars. I also kept my carbs effectively at 0 for the first two days and then mixed in spinach and broccoli. My goal was to deplete glycogen as quickly as possible so that the second half of the week was maximum ketosis. A suggestion I've read is to take fiber capsules, since you will have reduced movement through your gut.

I lost about 24 pounds in 4-5 weeks. I did lose a little bit of strength but I believe it was because my protein intake was a tad low--I just started getting sick of meat, and I stayed away from whey because I didn't have access to any that didn't have sweeteners.

I also was taking DCP (the good ol days when it was available) and Leviathan Reloaded. A lot of fish oil and a good multi vitamin. Woked well for me.

 

[bla55]

Hold on,

So no caffeine? I thought I read several places that caffeine was ok as long as coffee was black. I do drink about 2 cups a day and a couple of pepsi max. It will be real unfortunate if I do indeed find out that that is not ok... I have also read that Green Tea is fine, which is also loaded with caffeine, is that not the case?

Not to mention that Leviathan has loads of caffeine in it too, no? It is just kinda crazy cause I really haven't been eating much carbs, at all. Breakfast is usually an omelete with cheese, lunch is omelete and some meat, usually sausage or burger, dinner chicken or red meat, sometimes fish, shrimp or salmon. I eat peanuts and almonds through the day as snacks and drink carb control EAS as protein shake every 2 hours in between meals.

I just find it weird that people report 20+ lbs in 5 weeks when I've kinda yet to see actual lb number change on my scale.

Thoughts would then be stop with the caffeine? Or maybe something else?

 

[crux]

I'll see if I can find where I read that about caffeine. On second thought, I was taking Leviathan at a different time (but I definitely was taking DCP). I'll get back to you with a link confirming or contradicting my memory of caffeine and ketosis.

 

[crux]

All right. It looks as if there are mixed thoughts on ceffeine. It appears that most people can handle caffeine without losing ketosis, but some people will be affected. You could be one of those people.

Here is a quote from a so-called "low carb diet website":
Does caffeine affect ketosis?

This is questionable. There ARE a few studies that suggest caffeine may cause blood sugar to rise, with consequent effect on insulin ... The studies involve consuming 50 gm glucose orally, followed by a dose of caffeine. This is quite different from a low carber, who is consuming only 20 gm carbs, in the form of high-fiber vegetables, spread throughout the day.

Many low carbers continue to enjoy caffeine-containing beverages with no serious impact on their weight-loss efforts. However, there are some sensitive individuals ... and persons who are extremely insulin resistant may need to restrict or even eliminate all caffeine. If you have been losing successfully then find your weight loss stalled for a month or two, and you are following your program to the letter, you might consider stopping all caffeine for a while, to see if that will get things started again.


I have Lyle McDonald's keto instruction on pdf, and it doesn't seem to prohibit caffeine. It even talks about the ECA stack as being effective for fat burning. If you PM me your email, I'll be happy to send it to you.

 

[MAxximal]

When I was doing a CKD diet I read more than once not to consume caffeine, as it will kick you out of ketosis. It takes time to get back into fat burning so you really don't want to be wasting your time. Sugar alcohols, while carb-free, also can kick you out. I did a 5 day heavy training traing, with more cardio after workouts early in the week, and then a full body circuit right before my weekend carb load on simple sugars. I also kept my carbs effectively at 0 for the first two days and then mixed in spinach and broccoli. My goal was to deplete glycogen as quickly as possible so that the second half of the week was maximum ketosis. A suggestion I've read is to take fiber capsules, since you will have reduced movement through your gut.

I lost about 24 pounds in 4-5 weeks. I did lose a little bit of strength but I believe it was because my protein intake was a tad low--I just started getting sick of meat, and I stayed away from whey because I didn't have access to any that didn't have sweeteners.

I also was taking DCP (the good ol days when it was available) and Leviathan Reloaded. A lot of fish oil and a good multi vitamin. Woked well for me.

old and new days DCP is available again

http://www.nutraplanet.com/search?view[mfg_id]=&view[category_id]=&query=DCP

 

[crux]

old and new days DCP is available again

Good deal. I hadn't checked in a little while. Thanks man

 

[bla55]

Thanks for the reading, Crux.

It is a shame that there is no set "guide" as far as caffeine. I have been plenty good all around but it is hard to go a day with no caffeine, no Leviathan and so on. REALLY hard. And at the same time, I drink so much water it is hard to figure out with Ketostix if I am in fact in Ketosis or not.

I just know that I have not been getting the same results as the vast majority and I wanna figure out why. 13 days in and I have maybe lost 2lbs on the scale, and I've been working out hardcore and following the diet to the tee, and at this point most people report losses of upwards 10 - 15lbs, so it's crazy to think that I am not seeing the same. Especially weird seeing ECA stack being suggested and having caffeine maybe being something that may kick me out of ketosis.

Crazy stuff.

 

[MAxximal]

Oxyelite Pro has caffeine and i loose weight in keto but now i use 600mg caffeine a day is hard to loose weight hmmm maybe 300mg a day is ok but above kick out ketosis

note in the atkins book he say NOT CAFFEINE!!!!

 

[saggy321]

I seriously wouldn't worry about caffeine. The only downside possible is its effects on cortisol. Anyhow, I wouldn't do a carb-up for at least two weeks. You really need to empty to glycogen stores and start to use fat as you main source of energy. Also be patient. I know that in most instances the initial lbs loss is glycogen and water.

 

[bla55]

Ok, so I gave up diet soda (not too bad) and caffeine (might as well have shot me, working at 7AM and not being able to get a single cup of black coffee? Days are awful, AWFUL) and the only thing I have kept was the Leviathan, I will see how that works on a smaller dose, afterall I need to stay awake SOMEHOW.

Anyways, I have also given up my afternoon green tea until I figure myself out. Now here's the question: What to drink?! Is regular tea (There is Lemon Zest and Mandarin Orange, both seemingly with no calories from Celestial) ok to drink and replace then or would that fall under the "diet soda" category?

Thanks again

 

[EasyEJL]

Darn, that was a great guide but I guess I reached my limit of free pages...

Guess a few things really helped there, and as I understand milk is no good? Not even fat free?

Milk have LACTOSE=Sugar

Hood Calorie countdown milk doesnt...

http://www.hood.com/Products/prodListColl.aspx?id=851

and excuse my next handful of posts in a row but I want to quote specific things

 

[EasyEJL]

I've been pretty damn good about my diet for 4 - 5 days now, closest I've ever gotten to carbs was lettuce.

I have been taking Leviathan and I do often drink 2 cups of coffee in the morning when I get to work (I need to be awake somehow...) and then usually 2 cups of green tea in the afternoon. I've tried the keto stix but they just kinda seem to show trace to moderate. I'm guessing their reading will be extremely off due to the diuretics / the amount of water I drink on a daily basis? (I would say I drink almost 2 gallons a day)

keto stix should ONLY show anything more than trace to moderate if you are eating more calories than maintenance. They show high amounts when there are excess ketones in bloodstream not being burned for energy, and beeing excreted out in urine. If you are eating close to or under maintenance total calories, it won't show heavy ever.

 

[EasyEJL]

I have been doing this for maybe the last 9 days, haven't really lost any lbs per say. Have been working out extremely hard which I had not done in the last 3 months.

I haven't counted calories but I try to keep a good balance and keep small portions, ie, 2 sausages for breakfast, protein shake mid morning, 2 egg omelet with cheese and a brat for lunch, protein shake mid afternoon, some peanuts, and then light dinner with either 2 - 3 chicken breasts, or shrimp or some meat.

I am 227lbs so I wouldn't say I'm going over my calories, would I? I am around the 20% fat mark. I was slightly surprised that I have yet to drop a few lbs. I drink a lot of water as I've mentioned and have been taking those supplements. I also take about 7g of fish oil a day.

I had not really taken measurements so I can't comment there, I did take some yesterday but couldn't tell if I've lost any inches I guess.

Thoughts?

Hold on,

So no caffeine? I thought I read several places that caffeine was ok as long as coffee was black. I do drink about 2 cups a day and a couple of pepsi max. It will be real unfortunate if I do indeed find out that that is not ok... I have also read that Green Tea is fine, which is also loaded with caffeine, is that not the case?

Not to mention that Leviathan has loads of caffeine in it too, no? It is just kinda crazy cause I really haven't been eating much carbs, at all. Breakfast is usually an omelete with cheese, lunch is omelete and some meat, usually sausage or burger, dinner chicken or red meat, sometimes fish, shrimp or salmon. I eat peanuts and almonds through the day as snacks and drink carb control EAS as protein shake every 2 hours in between meals.

I just find it weird that people report 20+ lbs in 5 weeks when I've kinda yet to see actual lb number change on my scale.

Thoughts would then be stop with the caffeine? Or maybe something else?

if you aren't counting calories, then there is no way to tell. you have to count calories regardless of diet. Guys who do see the rapid loss are usually on fairly low calories, and potentially using other supplements as well. The caffeine is pretty irrelevant, the worst it will do for ketosis is delay your initial going into ketosis, it won't stop ketosis entirely.

 

[EasyEJL]

Ok, and here's the kicker - why are you doing keto? There isn't a shred of evidence anywhere except "bros" saying it that a ketogenic diet of any sort offers any benefit at all over a non ketogenic diet as far as fat loss or muscle retention goes. Numerous studies have been done, at best a ketogenic diet may help with hunger control, but there isn't a statistically significant difference in either fat lost or muscle retained vs the same # of calories in a non-ketogenic diet. I used to believe in the ketosis hype, but no more.

 

[ken22]

What are your workouts? and when?

 

[bla55]

I am not counting calories per say because I don't really have a scale and I grill most of my stuff on George Foreman, so much of the fat may also leave it that way, makes it hard to keep a close count, but I try to stick very much to low portions and hopefully get towards a deficit than maintenance weight.

Here is a common breakdown of my day:

Breakfast: 1.5 eggs and some egg beaters omelete with parmesean and mexican cheese. A couple of strips of bacon or a brat.

Mid morning: EAS Carb control - 110cal, 17 protein, 3g fat, 2g of carb

Lunch: 1.5 eggs and egg beater omelette with parmesean cheese and some meat, either a burguer patty, sausage, chicken, salmon burguer, steak, etc.

Mid afternoon: Almonds

Afternoon: EAS Shake again

Workout

Dinner: Some lean protein, usually chicken breasts, sometimes steak, sometimes shrimp. About 2 - 3 chicken breasts.

And that's a day's of food. I am 230 with about 20% BF. And that is pretty close to what I do on a daily basis. Any thoughts on anything that I should perhaps change or decrease?

As far as workout: 5 times a week and always after work, 6PM roughly. Monday I will do Back, Chest, Shoulder. 4 Back excercises, 4 chest, 2 shoulder. After that I usually jump rope for about 20 minutes so I can work all muscles and therefore hopefully run out the glycogen that is stored.

Tuesday I do a boot camp style full body workout at the gym, not too bad, just do it to change the routine a little and not get bored. Sometimes I will do spinning class instead. After this I go and work out abs for about 20 minutes.

Wednesday is leg day, work only that and maybe eliptical for 15 minutes after

Thursday is the same as Tuesday. Abs also included.

Friday I work out arms, 4 for bis, 4 for tris, 2 for forearms. Then I usually do jump rope for about 20 minutes as Monday. Sometimes I will do some abs there as well as a break midst jumping rope.

Saturdays and Sundays are pretty much wildcard, if I happened to miss one of the weekdays I make up on the weekend. If not, just extra cardio, swimming, etc.

Why I wanna do Keto? Because to me it's much easier to give up carbs than to give up something else, I actually really enjoy the foods and I enjoyed the results people have gotten, or reported. I have tried many different things and it seems like this was worth a shot and I wanted drastic changes, this seemed to be a good starting point.

I think that's about it. Should I go into more details in anything?

 

[EasyEJL]

I am not counting calories per say because I don't really have a scale

then spend $30 to buy a scale, instead of spending it on supplements, and figure out what you really are taking in. Losing fat isn't magic, putting yourself at 250-500 calories below maintenance based on your activity works regardless of the calorie sources. A nutrition professor did a twinkies only diet, and lost siginficant amount of fat on it.

Also, you seriously need some vegetables in there.

Were you dieting before you started this? because without knowing how much in eggbeaters, or burger or all the other items, that diet could be anywhere from too little calories to way too many. I could see depending on actual amounts that ranging between 1500-3000 calories.

Also, in general, it looks like you may be getting too much protein, and too little fat, but without actual amounts its hard to tell.

 

[ken22]

I agree closer count on calories in as well as vegetables, I dont think there is one in ther anywhere. As far as workouts, I prefer cardio first thing in the morning on a empty stomach that way I burn fat not the food I just ate. 1 hour run on a empty stomach 3 to5 times a week sucks, but definately gets results.

 

[bla55]

Problem with early workouts is that I start work at 7AM.

And I will try to eat a salad here and there, about 4 times a week with some protein along, as well as with broccoli and green beans, some mushroom, but I figured they say to go low on carbs until you actually reach some ketosis state so I haven't been eating much of it to make sure I don't derail.

Should I introduce more of those on a day to day? Cause I would love to get some broccoli during lunch and dinner for instance.

 

[EasyEJL]

broccoli is about as safe as it gets. asparagus and spinach as well.

4oz of broccoli is about 7g carbs, but 3g of it is fiber. so you net 4g of carbs. half a pound of broccoli with each of 2 meals a day wouldn't be enough to keep you out of ketosis.

 

[bla55]

Sounds good,

I will maybe toss some brocolli and aspargus in my omelet too or something aside from using it as a side.

 

[EasyEJL]

Last time I tried keto before giving up on it for good, every Sunday night I'd cook up 3lbs of chicken breast, 4 lbs of ground beef, 4lbs of broccoli, 2 lbs of asparagus, add 8oz of almonds, and I can't recall the amount of olive oil I'd add after cooking. I'd break that down to something like 12 or 16 individual serving, and just eat it thru the week.

 

[bla55]

I have been doing the cooking on a daily basis, every night I make food for the next day.

I like the idea though of the almonds, I may crush a few and toss them in my omelet though, it sounds like a good idea. I will start doing that. I have added almond unsweetened milk to make my protein shakes for mid morning and mid afternoon, feel that will help out a little too.

But I have yet to find a drink to have, any suggestions? I've been sticking with decaf tea, anything else that I may be able to add in? Or should I even take that tea out?

 

[MAxximal]

I have been doing the cooking on a daily basis, every night I make food for the next day.

I like the idea though of the almonds, I may crush a few and toss them in my omelet though, it sounds like a good idea. I will start doing that. I have added almond unsweetened milk to make my protein shakes for mid morning and mid afternoon, feel that will help out a little too.

But I have yet to find a drink to have, any suggestions? I've been sticking with decaf tea, anything else that I may be able to add in? Or should I even take that tea out?

Crystal Light (Sunrise Classic Orange) + 20g BCAA put in 32 oz of water drink all day

 

[TheDarkHalf]

broccoli is about as safe as it gets. asparagus and spinach as well.

4oz of broccoli is about 7g carbs, but 3g of it is fiber. so you net 4g of carbs. half a pound of broccoli with each of 2 meals a day wouldn't be enough to keep you out of ketosis.

I also believe there is something to be said about carbs that occur naturally vs carbs that are additives.

You could probably tolerate a ton of broccoli and it wouldn't through you out of ketosis (bear in mind the fiber also blunts the 4g of net carbs) but 4g of net carbs from a protein bar could possibly through you out.

No I don't have any studies; just pure speculation

 

[MAxximal]

I also believe there is something to be said about carbs that occur naturally vs carbs that are additives.

You could probably tolerate a ton of broccoli and it wouldn't through you out of ketosis (bear in mind the fiber also blunts the 4g of net carbs) but 4g of net carbs from a protein bar could possibly through you out.

No I don't have any studies; just pure speculation

but the nets count like fiber right? well the body can`t digest the fiber?

 

[TheDarkHalf]

but the nets count like fiber right? well the body can`t digest the fiber?

The calculation goes as follows....

Total Carbs - Dietary Fiber - Sugar Alcohols = Net Carbs

fiber isn't digested in the small intestine and so isn't broken down into glucose and absorbed into the blood

 

[MAxximal]

The calculation goes as follows....

Total Carbs - Dietary Fiber - Sugar Alcohols = Net Carbs

fiber isn't digested in the small intestine and so isn't broken down into glucose and absorbed into the blood

what fiber you use (brand)

 

[TheDarkHalf]

what fiber you use (brand)

unflavored benefiber

 

[MAxximal]

unflavored benefiber

Thank You!

and another question did you use Protein shakes too?

 

[TheDarkHalf]

Thank You!

and another question did you use Protein shakes too?

Absolutely. Whey isolate, mixed with water and natty PB

 

[MAxximal]

Absolutely. Whey isolate, mixed with water and natty PB

any brand in specific? I ask you because i read and see posts or some products claiming not have carbs but has sugars with "different names"

 

[TheDarkHalf]

any brand in specific? I ask you because i read and see posts or some products claiming not have carbs but has sugars with "different names"

I just read the ingredient label and pick accordingly, don't recall what one's i've used in the past - I switch whey's as often as I change my underwear

 

[bla55]

Can anyone comment on tea? Lemon Zest Tea? Mandarin Orange Tea? Any? They all show as calorie free on website.