Cardio questions

[qwerty33]

From my reading, it is best to do cardio in the morning in a fasted state for 20-30 mins of medium intensity.

As a natural bodybuilder and someone who is looking to hold onto muscle, is this the best way to do it? just roll out of bed 3-4x a week and go for a jog/run on an empty stomach?

[coldseed]

I've read that too, but also have read drink some whey or at least get some BCAA's to hold onto your muscle while you burn the fat.

[BryanM]

Many like HIIT for cardio for results on this board from what ive seen

Ive tried both and get better results from fasted AM cardio

I get up first thing and do low intensity for 45-60 minutes

you have to keep track of your heart rate though

220 - your age x .65 -.75 keep your heart rate in this range and your golden

Ive yet to really worry about loosing muscle if my diet is in check for the rest of the day

some people freak out and think they are going to go catabolic and take BCAAS before hand but I never bothered and generally dont loose any LBM.

[Rosie Chee]

From my reading, it is best to do cardio in the morning in a fasted state for 20-30 mins of medium intensity.

As a natural bodybuilder and someone who is looking to hold onto muscle, is this the best way to do it? just roll out of bed 3-4x a week and go for a jog/run on an empty stomach?

The best time to do cardio is when it's best for YOU. you can do it fasted, non-fasted, first thing, or last thing - whenever it fits into your daily schedule. It also depends on WHY you're doing cardio - whether for fitness, fat loss, etc. Again, what is best for someone else may not be for you - you may find that you can't train on an empty stomach, or you may be fine.

[qwerty33]

The best time to do cardio is when it's best for YOU. you can do it fasted, non-fasted, first thing, or last thing - whenever it fits into your daily schedule. It also depends on WHY you're doing cardio - whether for fitness, fat loss, etc. Again, what is best for someone else may not be for you - you may find that you can't train on an empty stomach, or you may be fine.

basically for me it would be to lower my triglycerides, get in better cardio shape.

[Rosie Chee]

basically for me it would be to lower my triglycerides, get in better cardio shape.

Then it doesn't matter when you do it, or what heart rate you have whilst doing it (although 60-75% of your maximum heart rate provides cardiovascular fitness improvements) - just do it when it fits into your schedule.

~Rosie~
The Primordial Woman

[Exercise123]

I've read that too, but also have read drink some whey or at least get some BCAA's to hold onto your muscle while you burn the fat.

Consuming BCAA/carbohydrates/protein pre-fasted workout would just be giving your body energy to burn during the workout. BCAA and/or whey protein consumed with low glucose levels will just be converted to glucose through gluconeogenisis, therefore inhibiting your fat loss approach as the body will immediately use the newly created energy (glucose).

[qwerty33]

so for purely blood triglycerides what heart rate should i be in? fat burn or cardio

[Exercise123]

so for purely blood triglycerides what heart rate should i be in? fat burn or cardio

Fat Burn zone/60-75% of your maximum heart rate/LIT (low intensity)

You can use the Karvonen Formula as BryanM posted above or since technically the KV formula has been proven inaccurate you can surf the web and there are a bunch of calculators to asses a more accurate fat burning heart rate. Most involve an individual's resting heart rate, which can be determined by taking your pulse for one minute first thing in the morning or after prolonged rest. The average resting heart rate is 90 bpm.

Also, another good way of assessing a fat burning or low intensity heart rate during cardio would be to increase intensity until a point where it becomes difficult to not solely breather through the nose.

[Rosie Chee]

so for purely blood triglycerides what heart rate should i be in? fat burn or cardio

Doesn't matter, honestly

[vadox6466]

Consuming BCAA/carbohydrates/protein pre-fasted workout would just be giving your body energy to burn during the workout. BCAA and/or whey protein consumed with low glucose levels will just be converted to glucose through gluconeogenisis, therefore inhibiting your fat loss approach as the body will immediately use the newly created energy (glucose).

is this true? Taking 5g of BCAA before fasted cardio is actually detrimental to fat loss?

[kingk0ng]

I always recommend it on your off days. First thing in the morning can make it more muscle sparring, pre workout burns away glycogen needed for ATP during resistance training, post workout has shown to be muscle sparring, even though I can't remember what exactly the study said about it.

Anyway, I always have clients do it on their off days and around 7 in the morning. They usually wake up at 6 and I tell them BEFORE doing the cardio, to have a shake of whey protein with water, fish oil, and BCAAs to prevent amino acid breakdown.

Really though it just depends whenever you respond from it the best. Studies will conclude different things with each study and the answer is simple - everyone is different.

[Rosie Chee]

is this true? Taking 5g of BCAA before fasted cardio is actually detrimental to fat loss?

It shouldn't be - there's no calories in BCAAs, and they're already the simplest form of protein so your body does not have to digest them. Others may disagree, but it doesn't matter when you do your cardio if you're looking for fat loss, since it doesn't matter what substrate is used during cardio.

[prld2gr8ns]

It shouldn't be - there's no calories in BCAAs, and they're already the simplest form of protein so your body does not have to digest them. Others may disagree, but it doesn't matter when you do your cardio if you're looking for fat loss, since it doesn't matter what substrate is used during cardio.

If it's not water, it has calories. Isoleucine and Valine are glucogenic amino acids and quickly undergo gluconeogenesis to provide the body with fuel when needed. Straight leucine may be a better choice since it's non-glucogenic if your looking for a pwo drink. Honestly though(like Rosie said), cardio is cardio. If your marcros are in line and you are getting the heart rate up, you'll see the results you want.

[wearedbleedblue]

If it's not water, it has calories. Isoleucine and Valine are glucogenic amino acids and quickly undergo gluconeogenesis to provide the body with fuel when needed. Straight leucine may be a better choice since it's non-glucogenic if your looking for a pwo drink. Honestly though(like Rosie said), cardio is cardio. If your marcros are in line and you are getting the heart rate up, you'll see the results you want.

Agreed, BCAA have calories in them, anything that gives you energy (kilocalories are a standard unit of energy) does.

[drvinnybombat]

Is the fasted morning cardio going to do anything other than promote weight/fat loss? I'm talking specifically about increasing VO2 max, endurance, 100m time, and generally performance based goals.

[Exercise123]

Is the fasted morning cardio going to do anything other than promote weight/fat loss? I'm talking specifically about increasing VO2 max, endurance, 100m time, and generally performance based goals.

Heart health. Whether it need be fasted morning cardio...or LIT cardio anytime during the day; no, the time doesn't matter.

[Rosie Chee]

Is the fasted morning cardio going to do anything other than promote weight/fat loss? I'm talking specifically about increasing VO2 max, endurance, 100m time, and generally performance based goals.

If you want to increase 100-metre time and performance-based goals, then set your training programme up for it! Improving VO2 max and endurance is something else altogether to improving speed, power, and speed endurance - although some elements are required for both.

[drvinnybombat]

If you want to increase 100-metre time and performance-based goals, then set your training programme up for it! Improving VO2 max and endurance is something else altogether to improving speed, power, and speed endurance - although some elements are required for both.

Then what is the point of fasted morning cardio? I just don't see the point...the people that run 3-5 miles just seem slower and weaker than me, and they work so much harder. I interval train 15-20 min, 2-3 times per week not fasted in the afternoon, and it's an easy workout. I never traverse more than 2 miles, and I'm the fastest person I know (granted I don't hang out with Deion Sanders).

I just feel like the fasted morning run so specific to weight loss, am I totally wrong?

[Rosie Chee]

Then what is the point of fasted morning cardio? I just don't see the point...the people that run 3-5 miles just seem slower and weaker than me, and they work so much harder. I interval train 15-20 min, 2-3 times per week not fasted in the afternoon, and it's an easy workout. I never traverse more than 2 miles, and I'm the fastest person I know (granted I don't hang out with Deion Sanders).

I just feel like the fasted morning run so specific to weight loss, am I totally wrong?

Personal preference, as well as goals. I prefer to do first thing fasted cardio, but that's just me - in fact, I do ALL of my training first thing in the morning, fasted (unless I decide to add in a pm cardio session, or don't have time in the morning to do my weights). I don't work any harder doing cardio (or training in geneeral) in that state than I do if I do it later in the day after several meals.

Others use it re fat loss, because it is so commonly thrown around that it works better. However, since everyone is different, we all know that you have to find what works best SPECIFICALLY FOR YOU re fat loss (and any other body goal).

~Rosie~
The Primordial Woman

[AnthonyIOSOS]

I do a bit of everything.

Weight Training days consist of 15-20 min intense cardio.

Non Weight Training days consist of 30 minutes moderate cardio in a fasted state.

I have been getting excellent results.

[qwerty33]

does cardio around wright lifting times mess with growth or strength? like before or after lifting? would weight training downing a protein shake then doing 20 mins of cardio work or not at all?

[Rosie Chee]

does cardio around wright lifting times mess with growth or strength? like before or after lifting? would weight training downing a protein shake then doing 20 mins of cardio work or not at all?

No, cardio around or near your resistance sessions does not make a difference and does not affect your growth or strength - your NUTRITION will affect those factors. I do cardio before AND after my resistance training (if you've ever looked in my training/supplementation journals/logs, you will note this) and never have problems with either mass or strength if I want it. You can do resistance training, have a protein shake and then do cardio - makes no difference. Find what works for YOU and go with it!

~Rosie~
The Primordial Woman

[EasyEJL]

does cardio around wright lifting times mess with growth or strength? like before or after lifting? would weight training downing a protein shake then doing 20 mins of cardio work or not at all?

All goal dependent. If you are talking fat loss, then its nearly pointless to do a shake then cardio. For general cardiovascular health its fine.

Doing it before lifting for most people leaves them feeling a bit depleted (particularly if you do HIIT) and weaker for their strength workout. 10-20 minutes of low intensity preworkout isn't bad though, serves as a nice warmup if you do it on an elliptical as you get whole body motion.

[qwerty33]

makes sense but running after weight training if one takes a share will have no effect on muscle gain. thats my main concern. have to get cardio up to lower my blood triglycerides

[EasyEJL]

No, no negative effect other than burning more calories so if you were bulkimg, you just have to add calories to cover whats burned in the running.

[Rosie Chee]

makes sense but running after weight training if one takes a share will have no effect on muscle gain. thats my main concern. have to get cardio up to lower my blood triglycerides

If you're eating enough to cover that added energy expenditure - as Eric said - then you should be able to make gains just fine. DO bear in mind that running is the most catabolic mode of cardio, and so you DO need to get your NUTRITION right. Otherwise, just do your cardio - not necessarily running - BEFORE your weights, or every other day when you do NOT do resistance training.

~Rosie~
The Primordial Woman

[qwerty33]

you guys are awesome. now its time to hit the cardio and get those triglycerides down

[PoppaNick88]

I like to wake up, take a fatburner, drink atleast one bottle of water, and just go. Im more of a jog/speed walker myself. keeps my heart rate at optimal level and i dont go catabolic.

[AnthonyIOSOS]

I like to wake up, take a fatburner, drink atleast one bottle of water, and just go. Im more of a jog/speed walker myself. keeps my heart rate at optimal level and i dont go catabolic.

That's what I'm talking about. I find 30 minutes to be optimal.

[freefall365]

If you're eating enough to cover that added energy expenditure - as Eric said - then you should be able to make gains just fine. DO bear in mind that running is the most catabolic mode of cardio, and so you DO need to get your NUTRITION right. Otherwise, just do your cardio - not necessarily running - BEFORE your weights, or every other day when you do NOT do resistance training.

~Rosie~
The Primordial Woman

Some really good info from you, Rosie, in this thread...as always.

Can you elaborate on the "running is the most catabolic mode of cardio" bit? I mean wouldn't swimming 100 laps in the pool be just as catabolic as running a a few miles?

[Rosie Chee]

Some really good info from you, Rosie, in this thread...as always.

Can you elaborate on the "running is the most catabolic mode of cardio" bit? I mean wouldn't swimming 100 laps in the pool be just as catabolic as running a a few miles?

No, swimming 100 laps in the pool is going to be nowhere as catabolic as running a few miles - if you need an example, look at a marathon runner compared to a swimmer. Running is a very high impact and high intensity/energy form of cardio, and you're more likely to burn muscle running than doing non-weighted or low-impact exercise (especially if you are restricting calories).

[freefall365]

No, swimming 100 laps in the pool is going to be nowhere as catabolic as running a few miles - if you need an example, look at a marathon runner compared to a swimmer. Running is a very high impact and high intensity/energy form of cardio, and you're more likely to burn muscle running than doing non-weighted or low-impact exercise (especially if you are restricting calories).

So you are saying even if the heart rate were equal in two people one swimming and the other running for the same amount of time, that running would be more catabolic?

[Rosie Chee]

So you are saying even if the heart rate were equal in two people one swimming and the other running for the same amount of time, that running would be more catabolic?

Yes. Swimming is NOT a weight bearing exercise. And heart rate rises rapidly with running. We actually discussed running being highly catabolic during my degree for a paper - can't remember references off the top of my head, but the final conclusion was that anything over 30-40 minutes of running caused muscle loss (bearing in mind that most people who run do not eat enough to cover the costs of their energy expenditure, so that could be a huge factor).

[qwerty33]

where does the elliptical fall in? between swimming and running ?

[Rosie Chee]

where does the elliptical fall in? between swimming and running ?

Elliptical is non-impact. Even though IMO not all cardio is created equal, you cannot really give a "catabolic scale" to different modes of cardio - whether or not one is going to be catabolic or not is predominantly dependent on their NUTRITION.