I need some help from people with experience!!

[rrm]

My Goals by april 3rd: Gain muscle! As musch as possible and some fat is ok i guess.

What ive been doing: Anabolic diet (bulking stage) which is 2400cals through the week and like 3500 calories on carb loading day. 10-20carbs through the week and 700carbs on carb refeed.

My Question: Im 16 years old weighing 150lbs and at 11-12% bodyfat and im gunna admit i know like everything about nutrition and that but when it comes down to me i get stuck on what to do because i want the "best" results. Im a meso like 90% and 10% endo (wide hips) and i can gain fat decently easy but i can also lose it if i want to pretty fast. I want to get some feedback from people that have some more knowledge and experience than me on if i should continue this diet the same way for bulking. If i need to change the way im doing this diet for bulking. Or lastly if i should do a whole different approach and do the anabolic diet just for the cutting period. Please any help from an experienced source is great for a teen!

 

[rrm]

anybody?? just need a bit of help

 

[sportsfan4110]

i would suggest you do away with the anabolic diet as that seems to only be good for cutting. i you wanna bulk up just start by eating slightly more than you are know until you gain weight then when you stop gaining eat some more. as far as the diet just be sure to get in about 1.5 grams of protein everyday and add in red meat as this helps a lot and adjust carbs and fats to what works best for you. many people can get away with eating a ton of carbs while some can't and same with fats. just remember to eat more than you burn and make sure most of the calories are clean and supplement well and get plenty of rest.

also why gain so much by april 3? gaining muscle doesn't happen overnight as it takes a while to gain. just be patient as if you try and rush it you will gain more fat than your liking and thats not good.... neways good luck

 

[crazyfool405]

are you carb sensitive? do you know your maintence kcals?

 

[BodyWizard]

Height? Current bodyfat? (go here: http://www.bblex.de/en/calc/navy.php)
Current exercise/weight plan?
Length of training so far?
Current diet (3-day comprehensive intake log)?

 

[rrm]

i would suggest you do away with the anabolic diet as that seems to only be good for cutting. i you wanna bulk up just start by eating slightly more than you are know until you gain weight then when you stop gaining eat some more. as far as the diet just be sure to get in about 1.5 grams of protein everyday and add in red meat as this helps a lot and adjust carbs and fats to what works best for you. many people can get away with eating a ton of carbs while some can't and same with fats. just remember to eat more than you burn and make sure most of the calories are clean and supplement well and get plenty of rest.

also why gain so much by april 3? gaining muscle doesn't happen overnight as it takes a while to gain. just be patient as if you try and rush it you will gain more fat than your liking and thats not good.... neways good luck

well i have a trip to italy for 2 months and my aunt wanted me to come into her studio for some shots but she wants me to get some more muscle on me and to defined muscle. So i would need to gain as much muscle as possible and than do a cut but it sux i only have 2 months

 

[rrm]

are you carb sensitive? do you know your maintence kcals?

I really dont know.....ive been on this anabolic diet and it seems like ive gained fat personally (dirty refeeds dont help) but ive also been on a diet with carbs and havnt changed much either(fat gains). I am a meso endo mix though so if that helps??
My maintnance is 2200 calories.

 

[rrm]

Height? Current bodyfat?
Current exercise/weight plan?
Length of training so far?
Current diet (3-day comprehensive intake log)
170inch = height and 11% bf
low rep and heavy weight (5 day split)
1 1\2 years of training
2400 calories over 6 meals throughout the day 30g protien/ meal
35g fat/ meal
trace carbs
fat/protien sources- beef, chicken, buffalo, bacon, fish
fat sources- mayo, peanut butter, evoo, butter, coconut oil, heavy cream
Carb refeed day- I would go all out but i would include a lot of healthy choices as well. (isnt working i go overboard with this)

 

[OCCFan023]

If you are a meso (at least 90%) than you would have seen nice gains on the carb diet yous saw mostly fat on (unless it was low quality carbs).

Honestly 2 months is very tight to gain muscle and loose fat in the sense I seem to be getting from your post. I would say focus on one or the other (I guess the one that is more important) and go from there. So focus on adding lbm for the next two months, but keep some cardio in check and it will be relativley simple to keep it to lean gains.

If I were you I would drop the carb cycling diet, your 16 years old and growing, don't restrict one of if not the most fundamental macronutrients from your diet, all around its just not a good idea. Write up a diet focus around complex and nutritious carbs with a total kcal intake of 2500-2700 with a 40-40-20 split (c-p-f). Keep your training solid with complex lifts and you will see nice gains.

This is a very basic setup, but at your age you will be able to see some very nice gains with very slight changes to your diet.

 

[rrm]

If you are a meso (at least 90%) than you would have seen nice gains on the carb diet yous saw mostly fat on (unless it was low quality carbs).

Honestly 2 months is very tight to gain muscle and loose fat in the sense I seem to be getting from your post. I would say focus on one or the other (I guess the one that is more important) and go from there. So focus on adding lbm for the next two months, but keep some cardio in check and it will be relativley simple to keep it to lean gains.

If I were you I would drop the carb cycling diet, your 16 years old and growing, don't restrict one of if not the most fundamental macronutrients from your diet, all around its just not a good idea. Write up a diet focus around complex and nutritious carbs with a total kcal intake of 2500-2700 with a 40-40-20 split (c-p-f). Keep your training solid with complex lifts and you will see nice gains.

This is a very basic setup, but at your age you will be able to see some very nice gains with very slight changes to your diet.

My only worry is that ive been on such low carb for about 2 months now. Will adding carbs back in cause fat gain you think?

 

[OCCFan023]

My only worry is that ive been on such low carb for about 2 months now. Will adding carbs back in cause fat gain you think?

Just ramp them up gradually, as well as your calories. Take about 2 weeks to get up to 500+ calories over your maintenance of 2200 and to get to a 40% carb intake.

 

[rrm]

Just ramp them up gradually, as well as your calories. Take about 2 weeks to get up to 500+ calories over your maintenance of 2200 and to get to a 40% carb intake.

Ok so today i was planning to take in like 2400 calories and ive already had breakfast which was my 30g protien and 35g fat. Do i start with this today or should i start like tom or monday and im at like 0 carbs at te moment so when i start how many should i take in and should it only be morning and post training?

 

[BodyWizard]

Still musing over your comments so far, but I have a mid-stream question (or 3):

Why is your fat intake greater than your protein intake?
I mean, you should already BE in ketosis, in which case you should have already have cut your fat & boosted your protein - and if you're not, aren't you doing it wrong?

And WHY are you on a CKD/TKD, if you're trying to gain muscle?

 

[EasyEJL]

Still musing over your comments so far, but I have a mid-stream question (or 3):

Why is your fat intake greater than your protein intake?
I mean, you should already BE in ketosis, in which case you should have already have cut your fat & boosted your protein - and if you're not, aren't you doing it wrong?

And WHY are you on a CKD/TKD, if you're trying to gain muscle?

actually for a real serious CKD he should be even lower in protein. As a 150lber, he should likely be at around 120g of protein a day, with the rest of his cals made from fats. Even once you are in ketosis, raising protein above what you are likely to use will cause gluconeogenesis and can kick you out of keto.

A CKD/TKD at greated than maintenance cals can be valuable for gaining lean mass if you have a tendency to be really carb sensitive and easily gan fat on "normal" diets.

 

[crazyfool405]

I really dont know.....ive been on this anabolic diet and it seems like ive gained fat personally (dirty refeeds dont help) but ive also been on a diet with carbs and havnt changed much either(fat gains). I am a meso endo mix though so if that helps??
My maintnance is 2200 calories.

Dirty refeeds do help they hel[p keep you metabolism high.

wat are your macros for each meal? and how many kcals you eating?

 

[crazyfool405]

actually for a real serious CKD he should be even lower in protein. As a 150lber, he should likely be at around 120g of protein a day, with the rest of his cals made from fats. Even once you are in ketosis, raising protein above what you are likely to use will cause gluconeogenesis and can kick you out of keto.

A CKD/TKD at greated than maintenance cals can be valuable for gaining lean mass if you have a tendency to be really carb sensitive and easily gan fat on "normal" diets.

that first statement isnt true, theres not that much of an insulin responce to kick you out of ketosis, plus gluconeogensis is going to occur regaurless due to workouts, so keeping protein high will most likely offset the use of the amino acid pool for energy and replenish it while its getting depleted especially the BCAAs that are depleted first.

 

[EasyEJL]

that first statement isnt true, theres not that much of an insulin responce to kick you out of ketosis, plus gluconeogensis is going to occur regaurless due to workouts, so keeping protein high will most likely offset the use of the amino acid pool for energy and replenish it while its getting depleted especially the BCAAs that are depleted first.

All of the authors of any of the "official" ketogenic diets such as Lyle McDonald would disagree with you on that. The keto state is not solely lost from an insulin spike but by there being easier to burn glycogen from gluconeogenesis. Yes some will occur from a workout, but the 4 or 5 grams from that is quite different than a surplus of 20-30g of protein.

 

[crazyfool405]

All of the authors of any of the "official" ketogenic diets such as Lyle McDonald would disagree with you on that. The keto state is not solely lost from an insulin spike but by there being easier to burn glycogen from gluconeogenesis. Yes some will occur from a workout, but the 4 or 5 grams from that is quite different than a surplus of 20-30g of protein.

80% of the fuel you get during your workout is via gluconeogenisis according to Dr Connelley.

gluconeogenisis simply means formation of new glucose.

can you rephrase the bolded, maybe you mistyped something and its hard for me to decifer what you mean or it was just written in a way i dont understand but to say the breakdown of glycogen (storage form of carbs) from the formation of new glucose doesnt really make much sense at least to me..

 

[EasyEJL]

yeah, that was contorted. Ketones are only produced when there isn't sufficient glucose or glycogen to power the body. The amount that is created during a workout by gluconeogenesis although enough to mostly power the workout is not in excess of what the workout consumes. However taking in 40g of protein in that immediate post workout meal (particularly if its whey) would give a large surplus of calories from protein, which would stop ketone production while the blood glucose levels are high, likely 2-3 hours. Also in that time period you could possibly see some of the surplus cals from that glucose used to feed and grow fat cells, which defeats the purpose of a ketogenic diet

 

[crazyfool405]

yeah, that was contorted. Ketones are only produced when there isn't sufficient glucose or glycogen to power the body. The amount that is created during a workout by gluconeogenesis although enough to mostly power the workout is not in excess of what the workout consumes. However taking in 40g of protein in that immediate post workout meal (particularly if its whey) would give a large surplus of calories from protein, which would stop ketone production while the blood glucose levels are high, likely 2-3 hours. Also in that time period you could possibly see some of the surplus cals from that glucose used to feed and grow fat cells, which defeats the purpose of a ketogenic diet

taking that 40g whey PWO will illicit a small insulin responce if any, and the develoment of glucose during the workout should not matter because your insulin sensitivty is high, blood glucose will be back to normal (for ketosis) fairly shortly after a workout.

 

[BodyWizard]

actually for a real serious CKD he should be even lower in protein. As a 150lber, he should likely be at around 120g of protein a day, with the rest of his cals made from fats. Even once you are in ketosis, raising protein above what you are likely to use will cause gluconeogenesis and can kick you out of keto.

Obviously, opinions vary - but if he's trying to gain, then 1.5g protein per pound doesn't seem extreme - especially since, at sixteen, he's still growing, and that will throw all the usual calculations off. I think 225g protein is a reasonable target if he wants to gain. I question him being on a keto diet at all: it's counter to him aims; but the only reason to consume fats in greater quantities than protein would be to make it easier/faster to get into ketosis. Once *into* ketosis, though, he'd want to drop his fats to encourage fat-store depletion.

None of which makes any sense if he's trying to add mass. He should be eating everything that moves (on say a 50/30/20 scheme, still using 225g protein to anchor the split), cut his weights by a third & at least double the reps in each set. He does a month of that, then a month of low-rep heavy work, cuts carbs before he leaves for Italy, and he should be ready for his close-up.

 

[BodyWizard]

The amount that is created during a workout by gluconeogenesis although enough to mostly power the workout is not in excess of what the workout consumes. However taking in 40g of protein in that immediate post workout meal (particularly if its whey) would give a large surplus of calories from protein, which would stop ketone production while the blood glucose levels are high, likely 2-3 hours.

Source for this? Context?

 

[EasyEJL]

Source for this? Context?

Body Opus, The Anabolic Diet, etc

But yes, I agree, and have already told the OP in another thread that although in a perfectly tuned world you can do a bulk on a ketogenic diet it isn't the easiest way. It is far more prone to a miserable failure than a conventional bulk is, and most people if its their first time doing a ketogenic diet also don't feel so hot on it. A ketogenic bulk that isn't perfectly executed ends up adding more fat than a conventional bulk at same calories from all that I have read and seen. Luckily for fat loss, a ketogenic diet is easy as with a caloric deficit its a bit less touchy.

 

[The Myth]

My Question: Im 16 years old weighing 150lbs and at 11-12% bodyfat and im gunna admit i know like everything about nutrition

Excuse me? Is this a misprint, or did you just "admit" that at the ripe old age of 16, you know everything about nutrition?

 

[rrm]

Still musing over your comments so far, but I have a mid-stream question (or 3):

Why is your fat intake greater than your protein intake?
I mean, you should already BE in ketosis, in which case you should have already have cut your fat & boosted your protein - and if you're not, aren't you doing it wrong?

And WHY are you on a CKD/TKD, if you're trying to gain muscle?

Well thats why im asking for advice for a bulk.....i know that im going to do a ckd/tkd for my cut but im unsure on my bulk

 

[rrm]

Excuse me? Is this a misprint, or did you just "admit" that at the ripe old age of 16, you know everything about nutrition?

i mean like the basics like fats, carbs, protien. Not to have fat with carbs and so on...

 

[rrm]

So im confused...from these diff responses

i have a few questions....
1. if i go higher carb will it be harder for me to get into ketosis for my month of cutting?
2. if i do a higher carb bulk what should i eat and when?

 

[crazyfool405]

i mean like the basics like fats, carbs, protien. Not to have fat with carbs and so on...

no offence man but you need to go back to the basics of diet and nutrition. not haveing carbs anf fat is non sensical.

Fat slows down tthe rate of absorbtion of carbs and protein, along with loweing the insulin responce of carbs.

use your maintenence kcals less 200 in protein and fat and add in 50g carbs breakfas pre and post work out 1 and post workout 2.

 

[crazyfool405]

So im confused...from these diff responses

i have a few questions....
1. if i go higher carb will it be harder for me to get into ketosis for my month of cutting?
2. if i do a higher carb bulk what should i eat and when?

use all that nutrition knowledge that you say you know. if you knew as much as you say you did then it would be easy to figure that out ...

 

[rrm]

no offence man but you need to go back to the basics of diet and nutrition. not haveing carbs anf fat is non sensical.

Fat slows down tthe rate of absorbtion of carbs and protein, along with loweing the insulin responce of carbs.

use your maintenence kcals less 200 in protein and fat and add in 50g carbs breakfas pre and post work out 1 and post workout 2.

srry cant really understand what your saying but my day is like the following can you maybe like show what you mean with the daily scheduale.....
5:30am wake up
6:30 off to gym
7:00am workout
8:30am Finish workout
Than i just go on with the day

 

[BodyWizard]

Well thats why im asking for advice for a bulk.....i know that im going to do a ckd/tkd for my cut but im unsure on my bulk

Do you not know that you are in a CKD *NOW*?

Or is this not your diet information, posted in response to me asking?

2400 calories over 6 meals throughout the day 30g protien/ meal
35g fat/ meal
trace carbs
fat/protien sources- beef, chicken, buffalo, bacon, fish
fat sources- mayo, peanut butter, evoo, butter, coconut oil, heavy cream
Carb refeed day- I would go all out but i would include a lot of healthy choices as well. (isnt working i go overboard with this)

You say a few posts down that you've been on this diet for 2 months now.

Do you not realize this IS a ketogenic diet? That forcefully contradicts your assertion that you know what you're talking about re: nutrition. If you have reported truthfully about your diet for the last 2 months, then you have 90+% probability you've been in ketosis for 2 months - burning fat, not building muscle; and burning *dietary* fat, at that.

Here's my advice for you on your bulk:

Stop thinking you already know what you're doing.
If you're trying to "Gain muscle, as much as possible", GET OFF THIS DIET.
Boost your protein to 225g/day min.
Add in rice, pasta & veggies @ ~180g/day
Keep fats ~45g/day

Tailor these numbers to your maintenance calories, using a 50/40/10 percentage split between protein, carbs, and fat.

If you're not growing soon after changing you diet, change your workout.

 

[BodyWizard]

Body Opus, The Anabolic Diet, etc

*Nods* Body Opus is good, but a LOT has been learned since then, much thanks to Lyle in particular I suppose; should go back thru it just for old-times' sake. Unfamiliar w/ the Anabolic Diet.

Either way, I should brush up on GNG - didn't sound that way when I was studying it or when Lyle was trying to explain it to me...and my memory is a terrible nag.

 

[EasyEJL]

*Nods* Body Opus is good, but a LOT has been learned since then, much thanks to Lyle in particular I suppose; should go back thru it just for old-times' sake. Unfamiliar w/ the Anabolic Diet.

Either way, I should brush up on GNG - didn't sound that way when I was studying it or when Lyle was trying to explain it to me...and my memory is a terrible nag.

Lyle was pretty strong in suggesting that in a ketogenic diet on non-carbup days that .8g/lb was enough protein, and i believe its .6g or less on carbup days. I need to break my books out now to make sure i'm not misremembering either

 

[rrm]

Do you not know that you are in a CKD *NOW*?

Or is this not your diet information, posted in response to me asking?


You say a few posts down that you've been on this diet for 2 months now.

Do you not realize this IS a ketogenic diet? That forcefully contradicts your assertion that you know what you're talking about re: nutrition. If you have reported truthfully about your diet for the last 2 months, then you have 90+% probability you've been in ketosis for 2 months - burning fat, not building muscle; and burning *dietary* fat, at that.

Here's my advice for you on your bulk:

Stop thinking you already know what you're doing.
If you're trying to "Gain muscle, as much as possible", GET OFF THIS DIET.
Boost your protein to 225g/day min.
Add in rice, pasta & veggies @ ~180g/day
Keep fats ~45g/day

Tailor these numbers to your maintenance calories, using a 50/40/10 percentage split between protein, carbs, and fat.

If you're not growing soon after changing you diet, change your workout.

so why such low fat though

 

[EasyEJL]

so why such low fat though

to keep your total calories from being too high. thats a total pretty close to the 2200 you were saying was your maintenance

 

[rrm]

to keep your total calories from being too high. thats a total pretty close to the 2200 you were saying was your maintenance

So i should start this macronutrien breakdown tommorow? All my carbs be around training or what? Its just been so long since ive taken in carbs....srry if they are stupid questions.