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- 10-21-2005, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by stryder
- 10-21-2005, 01:44 PM
10-21-2005, 04:28 PM
10-21-2005, 04:29 PM
i dont like your avatarOriginally Posted by italionstallion
10-21-2005, 04:36 PM
BK made some posts on another forum saying that this stuff is illegal and likely "VERY toxic" in an attempt to either scare people away from buying Methoxy-TRN or to actually help inform people about it. I am betting on the former, but does anyone know if ALRI has said anything about the toxicity and potency of 17b-methoxy-trienbolone? I was going to get 2 or 3, but decided on just one after reading BK's "warning" about it.
10-21-2005, 04:44 PM
it wouldnt make sense that he would be saying that in order to scare people as he helped make the stuff in the first place. BK and ALR are partnersOriginally Posted by screwbol
10-21-2005, 04:47 PM
He says he advised ALRI NOT to sell this, that he is almost positive it is illegal, but doesn't know 100% because he is not sure what the exact chemical is. So I seriously doubt he helped make Methoxy-TRN unless he is lying in his posts on musclegurus.Originally Posted by BMW
10-21-2005, 04:56 PM
Could be reverse psychology, after reading about it and stating that it should be illegal makes me want to get it all the more. Especially if it is comparable to Tren.Originally Posted by screwbol
10-21-2005, 05:25 PM
That would make sense, but he is saying it is either WEAK and VERY TOXIC or SRONG and VERY TOXIC, but he is assuming it is just an inferior (WRT results) methyl that is much more toxic than most others (dbol, pheraplex, anadrol, winny, superdrol, etc.). He isn't really implying it is a hardcore compound as far as results are concerned in as much as he is saying it is just way too toxic to consume at any dose. So if he is doing this to increase sales he is going about it all wrong if you read the posts I am referring to.Originally Posted by jonny21
I'll post them just so you can see what I am talking about:
posted by "TherachemBK"
I don't usually post anywhere anymore and I am sure Pat is not exactly going to welcome me with open arms here but I do want to say I had NOTHING to do with this compound other than I discussed it with Author on the telephone and advised him (strongly) not to do it.
There is no listing for "methoxytrenbolone" in VIDA so I have no clue where Author gets his figures from. There is a listing on page 287 of VIDA for 17b-methoxymethyloxyestra-4,9,11-trien-3-one and it is 2000X more androgenic and anabolic (orally) than 17a-methyl-testosterone.
This is not the same compound as what ALRI is proposing to sell.
I have no clue how effective this will be (the ALRI compound) but my thoughts, as a "hobbyist chemist" are that it will be both potent and VERY toxic or it will be weak and VERY toxic.
Originally, I was working on a 17b-methoxy-1-testosterone and I gave up on it (we made a sampe of 25g last June) because it made people really sick at doses as low as 20mg per day.
And it was less effective (clincially/subjectively) 'pound per pound' than the old M1T. That and I was unsure if it would be legal (more on this in a moment) as it seemed to be just a "methyl ester" of 1-testosterone which of course, is a C-III. BTW - the product was never brought in stateside, it was tested "out of country" just for this reason - I was really unsure if the DEA would view this as an ester of trenbolone or not and we did not want to risk it - and seeing how we had a lot of overseas friends where the laws are not so insane, we (well, I) decided not to bring it in...just in case. Better to be safe than sorry.
Author and I debated the merits and potential advantages and disadvantages of adding a methoxy to a molecule at C-17 perhaps 3-4 times over maybe 6 hours of telephone calls (we did not discuss the legality though). After my experience with the 1-ene version my opinion (and it is just that, my opinion) is that the methoxy's are just going to be "dirty versions of the illegal methyls that work not nearly as well". I could be wrong. In fact, I do not know for sure. I do hope ALRI and Author have done some testing on this product because at the suggested 4.5mg per day (and there is zero reason to break it up 3X per day, I think PA will concur with me on this) it might be VERY, VERY stressful to the body's ability to metabolize things. Or it might not, it might be just looked at as another ester in which case, it won't be that toxic at all but it would have some legal issues.
I think (and PA can verify as he knows a lot more about chemistry than I do) that this is essentially a "methyl ester" if my chemistry is right (and it might not be). So even though Author makes some bizarre claims about 17b hydroxyl and a progestenic effect (I believe this is incorrect - the 17b hydroxyl is really needed for the molecule to bind to the androgen receptor - as well as the C3 keto group) it's going to end up as a as a C17b-hydroxyl molecule after the 17HBSD enzyme does "what it does". Even though VIDA lists it as 2000X more potent than 17a-MT, VIDA also lists the undecanoate ester of trenbolone as 500X more potent than 17a-MT (as with the acetoxy and carbobenzoxyate esters too).
I do hope Author sees this post (and I will e-mail it to him to make sure) and has a university chemist and Rick Collins review his proposed new compound because I do not want to see my friend Author end up in prison for the manufacture and distribution of a C-III anabolic steroid and I really think that the methoxy's fall into this category. It's an ester of trenbolone in my book.
I bet it will also be viewed that way by the DEA and FDA. I hope I am wrong and PA can feel free to correct me if I am but I am hoping to stop a real disaster before it begins.
"BTW...this methoxytrenbolone compound is NOT in Halodrol-50. Not even close. I am sure PA can and will verify that when he runs a few ground up H-50's in acetonitrile and "HPLC's" them.
(and I am sure he will eventually). I am now 100% convinced the methoxytrenbolone, as I understand the molecule to be, is just the methyl ester of trenbolone and thus, a C-III and illegal.
If it is something other than this, then all bets are off as to whether it is legal or not."
So he's saying it is either weak or strong, but very toxic either way, and that he DOESN"T KNOW what it is but is PRETTY SURE it is illegal and "serious" repercussions will be felt. He also claims he had nothing to do with the production of the chem. This is why I made my original post.
Sorry if this is straying too far off the original topic, I just thought it should be addressed before we get into something we maybe should not.
10-21-2005, 10:11 PM
I am thinking this stuff is BAD and very TOXIC. These companies seem to keep on pushing the envelope. It all started with M1T and it went downhill since. I think they are just picking up the leftover steriods that were never marketed by the drug companies b/c of the toxicity. Look at the H-50, Gaspari is telling people to take small amounts for a short period of time. Why? Because it is very tosic and your body can only handle it for so long. Is that the responsible thing to sell?? Hell no!! These guys are trying to make money off young guy's desire to be big and ripped and will sell any product that will do it, no matter the side effects. IMO, I am starting to believe that these guys should be sued for knowing selling a harmful product. The trend has been to put out more and more powerful (aka toxic) compounds.
10-22-2005, 08:02 AM
M-1T was THE FIRST methylated "pro-hormone" (steroid) to come out. It is also the most toxic by far. NOTHING released since then has matched or even come close to matching its toxicity, let alone been more toxic, so your "slippery slope" argument is completely back-asswards.
10-22-2005, 09:22 AM
While M1T is vert toxic I have NEVER seen any direct comparison to other methylated pro steriods.Originally Posted by screwbol
I highly doubt you can back up your statment "...NOTHING released since then has matched or even come close to matching its toxicity, let alone been more toxic."
Many have seen a few SD, LMG, 1-AD, etc blood logs with very elevated sgots, etc. Not to mention the destruction of your lipid values. Much of the damage was done in a farily short period of time as well.
My argument is not invaild. We have seen harsher and harsher compounds come out since M1T opened the gates.
This is a very unhealthy trend, not only for the consumer, but for the industry. ALRI was going to do that H50 derivative, but pulled it, probably for legal reasons. Gaspari is sternly warning people to only use one tab for 15-30 max, no ifs ands or buts. Why is that? Most likely b/c it is a liver nightmare. PAt Arnold has called SD a very harsh drug as well.
That is the trend now, putting out harsher and harsher orals to build muscle at astonishing rates. No transdermals anymore. The young kid wants big muscles NOW and these firms are obliging by putting out oral bombs to get you there in a few short weeks and damn the side effects.
How healthy is that?? 20#'s in three weeks??? Your lipid values become extremely unhealthy, you liver is under great stress and your heart is working much harder. All this so you can be 20# heavier in three weeks. Sure you body can recover from this damage, but what about repeated seiges over time? We just do not know that answer yet.
10-22-2005, 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by StanChampion
I think the bloodwork after members using MD, MOHN, M1,4 shows that there are other methyls that are not as toxic as M1T...in fact M1T is about as toxic as it gets when it comes to AAS. Gasparis new product has the recommended cycle length of M1T and milligram for milligram is, in theory, not as toxic. Also remember when MD first came out, it was thought that MD would be EXTREMELY toxic and it was underdosed. Only time will tell how bad this compound truly is.
10-22-2005, 10:07 AM
Superdrol might be harsh in terms of effects on blood lipids, but I haven't seen any SD bloodwork that showed it to be very hepatoxic. I think the same is true of ErgoMax. I think the issue with Ergo has been that for many, it is severely androgenic and that is where the sides come from.
I'm not saying your wrong, especially with Methoxy TRN and the new Gaspari Halo, but aside from those which are the dirty new products since M1T?
10-22-2005, 10:13 AM
hey stryder, any eta on when Methoxy-TST well come out? It's the stack 2 counterpart to Methoxy-TRN.
10-22-2005, 10:55 AM
If the same proves true about the missing E in TRN, I wonder what word you could make by adding an E to TST?
10-22-2005, 11:17 AM
Besides the Meth TRN and H50, just really SD and the Ergo LMG for the most part. I am comparing them more closely to M1T. THe others, like PP and MD are toxic from what I have read, but to a lesser degree or until you stack them or greatly increase the dosage and/or time. M4OHN seemd to me (I never got blood work while on it though) and from other posts to be the most mild so far.Originally Posted by Beowulf
Too bad the search on AM is down, but I have a couple SD blood logs where they had elevated liver values, but it is the lipid values that seem to take the more substantial hit. Also agree on the Ergo where you have a host of negative androgenic sides.
I guess I am driving at the popularity. THe most popular "new" pro aas are the harsh SD, E LMG and still M1T types. Evreybody wants 20# in three weeks, so I guess firms need to put out these extremely powerful drugs.
Here are a couple of qutoes from Pat Arnold on his board:
"athletes in the past have taken smaller amounts of steroids that were less toxic than these. some of these new generations steroids are damn harsh"
"...toxic lethargy that many have experienced from M1T and superdrol"
10-22-2005, 01:35 PM
For what its worth I have mixed feelings on these newer "compounds."
I was thrilled with my results *WHILE USING* Emax,Prostanozol and MAX LMG. Coming off of the products I have questioned whether or not it was worth it in the first place.
On the positive side, I felt incredible while using them, an invincible feeling, worth any risks associated. A little acne here or there, no problem.
On the downside, after coming off,the paranoia of worrying about hairloss has me on edge. I didnt use anything for hair prevention while using Emax/Prostanozol/or MAX Lmg, and that I do regret and is my fault. I have a full head of hair, but can see where minor loss of hair occured on the frontal scalp.
I still have some left over Emax caps and Max LMG, but wont be using them. After 2 months of going hard with the "supplements", I realize I need to stop while im ahead of myself.
In my opinion I think it is great that products like these are available *FOR THOSE WHO PROPERLY USE THEM* For someone who is dieting and trying to get a real ripped body, these "compounds" are incredibly helpful. I experienced better body composition changes in 3 weeks using Emax with an average diet,than I did in 6 months of strict dieting and hard training with just creatine based supplements.
Unfortunately, I KNOW for a fact that there have been/will be many, including myself, who do not follow the proper safety procedures and run into trouble.
I definitely hit a bump of depression after coming off the Emax, and am still in somewhat of a depressed state. My fault for not considering the consequences of the lethargy post cycle adding to existing depression.
Just my 1 cent.
Now im gonna go order some Phera Plex j/k
10-22-2005, 01:47 PM
You can still start using the hair supps. A lot of people have seen improvements with Nizoral, minox and azelaic acid. They are pretty cheap, too.
Also, what did you use for PCT? I ask b/c the guys who are running DHEA, fenugreek and ATD seem to be having an effortless time with PCT.
10-22-2005, 03:02 PM
There is no evidence that anything released since methyl-1-test is as toxic or more toxic WRT blood glucose dysfunction, elevations in lipids and liver damage/elevated enzymes.
On the other hand, there are hundreds of cases where blood work has been done on many of the newer (i.e. those that succeeded M1T) pro-hormones/steroids such as MOHN, Mdien, M14add, M5AA, SD, etc. that show these compounds cause less side effects WRT lipids/liver/etc. than M1T.
You don't know what TRN or Halodrol 50 does yet, so you are not able to comment on the toxicity of those chems. And the amount of blood work/feedback regarding Ergomax LMG, pheraplex, etc. is too limited in order for you to accurately assess their affects on the body compared to M1T.
So your argument is more of an opinion than anything, and I have to respectfully disagree with you based on my personal experience with these newer pheromones/prosteroids. M1T at 5-10mg/day is the harshest thing I've ever put into my body, including high doses of SD, PP, ergomax lmg, m14add, mdien, mohn, dbol, anavar, winny, etc. It has a bad reputation for a reason.
10-22-2005, 09:07 PM
M1T is NOT a prosteroid or a prohormone, and as far as orals go, by far the most toxic ones are anadrol 50 or Dbol. These new compounds are being released because the Gov is everywhere it shouldn't be, but nowhere that it should. I have to wear a seat belt in my car, but I don't have to wear a helmet on my cycle? I can't take 1T, but this new diabetes med is safe? That stuff doesn't even make a little sense. The bottom line is whatever the supp companies CAN put out, they will. Thank you FDA! If that was Kneller that posted that on Mgurus, then he is a devine retard, because on this very site he discussed at length with ALR the very compound that he is now claiming to have no hand in, and while it remained conjecture he had NOTHING negative to say about it. One might have even assumed that he was pushing for it. Now he is merely kissing PA's psuedo-royal ass to get in good in case there are any consequences.
10-22-2005, 10:46 PM
Yea, I cannot think of anything off hand that has been show to be as toxic or more toxic than M1T. According to PA, SD is fairly close. SD and others do not need as toxic as M1T to be very danergous. M1T set the bar real high. Most people are stopping SD after three weeks now b/c they cannot handle the side effects. I ran it for 6 weeks and M1T for three and did not have much in the way of sides with either. Guess I was lucky. I tried VPX M1T and the original Meso brand. Never again though.Originally Posted by screwbol
My point is that all these orals seem to be getting more and more dangerous in terms of sides for the sake of bigger and bigger gains. To me it is making more sense to just go the injectable route, because the shot of cyp are looking safer than these other "legal" yet harsher alternatives. To me the scale seems to be tipping back to obtaining injectables again.
I have zero clue what H50 or this MethTRN will do, no one does. I am jsut speculating from what I have read off PA's board.
Your right, this is just my opinion, I thought I put that in my first post. Anyway, my opinion is based on some of the SD bloodwork on AM (mainly the huge lipid value hits and a couple liver hits) and some of PA comments on the muscleguru and bb.com boards.
Here is a classic on bb.com
first few pages are relevant, then is degrades into the typical efight, but entertaining. The thing that struck me as odd was the assertions PA made about this A. L . Rea that were never rebutted. If you read through the whoel thread and tie in the stuff about Rea, it gets real interesting.
10-22-2005, 10:52 PM
10-23-2005, 10:49 AM
Yeah, my original post in this thread was intended to create awareness/discussion of its potential toxicity problems. You're welcome. j/kOriginally Posted by StanChampion
Seriously, though, I think Bruce Knellers' posts regarding his "concern" for TRN's extreme toxic effects are more to hurt ALRI's business and boost Gaspari's than anything else. He has halodrol50 coming out so he will do anything to hurt his competition (IE ALRI's Methoxy TRN/TST).
10-23-2005, 12:15 PM
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Exactly. Kneller is not working with ALR for whoever questioned that earlier.Originally Posted by screwbol
10-23-2005, 12:17 PM
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Actually, I would say M1T is more toxic than DBOL any day of the week. Anadrol vs M1T is debatable, and to be honest, at least anadrol has been researched far longer than M1T.Originally Posted by Dungeon1
10-23-2005, 12:56 PM
Mg for Mg, M1T is far more potent and toxic. The average dose of M1T is 10-20 mg and anadrol is 50-150 mg. I understand what you are saying about anadrol being around longer and studied more.Originally Posted by Max32
10-23-2005, 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by screwbol
Yeah, who knows what BK's motives truly are. I read his comments on PA's board, but not really sure what to make of it, since he is a lunatic anyway.
So far, PA has not commented yet on that thread. Should be interesting if he does.
10-23-2005, 02:51 PM
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I have a question about all this that ive been pondering.
In the steroid ban didnt they say somethin about progestins NOT being and thats how ALRI is comin out with this methoxy-trn? If thats true, isnt M1T a progestin? I swear i read somewhere that it is. I could be totaly off base here so dont eat me alive for this comment just was pondering it.
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