- 12-07-2007, 08:23 PM
As it pertains to Jesus, there is also incredibly clear discrepancies. Which, as stated, range from the amount of time he spent in Jerusalem (3 days, or a year?) or upon which object he died (on the cross and carried off? on a stake? or on a tree?) which go beyond the offering of alternate perspectives of the same phenomena. They are describing different events. Now, and also as stated, this does not take away from the bible's validity as a whole, but, merely, means that the bible is not from without disjunctions, mistakes, and inter-author divergence. I.e., it has historicity
Originally Posted by Bpmartyr
You are exactly right though, this book has been scrutinized by a vast number of people, stemming from vast religious backgrounds, who have purported the very points I was espousing in the first place. I choose to represent those views as closely as possible, using my intuition and predisposition towards skepticism, though I am quite sure you take the same approach when reading the bible.
- 12-07-2007, 09:36 PM
Catholic bibles vary from Protestant in that they contain a set of books Protestants call "the Apocrypha".
I only assume your views on this particular subject stem from a lack of research by the caliber of the statements you put forth. Look, your obviously a smart guy who HAS done a great deal of study in various fields and perhaps even in this one. I know personally, I lack the time necessary to really spend putting forth detailed arguments as I am sure you do as well. I like you and respect you and didn't mean to come off like a prick or try to demean you. This is one of those subjects, ya know.
That being said, I still do not agree with you.Recent log:http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/213350-lean-efx-refined.html
12-07-2007, 11:26 PM
12-08-2007, 12:41 AM
12-08-2007, 12:46 AM
"There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person could believe in them."
I understand that George Orwell was not a spiritual man, and this quote doesn't necessarily pertain to any of this, but I always think of it when theology is discussed.
12-08-2007, 11:35 PM
Which, that challenge would still remain. Questioning the caliber of my statements is fine, but, then, refute them. Pretty simple task. If they are of such a low caliber and lacking validity, then preparing a counter-argument would be quite easy, no? More rhetoric on your part in this department than objective knowledge.I can chronologically tell you which apocrypha made it into canons and why, can you?
12-08-2007, 11:40 PM
12-08-2007, 11:42 PM
12-09-2007, 12:35 AM
12-09-2007, 01:08 AM
Just a thought ....
Ever wondered if religions were created to control the people, or are reglions created to give people hope in times or hardship?
Either way most religious point to the same belief system
1) There is an all might god(s)
2) There is also a bad "god(s)" (for those who dont obey the laws of the land).
3) There is a book/set of "rules and stories", all of which are taken as given fact. (now im not saying non of them are true etc, just questionning why we demand evidence for everything else in life (i.e flaming someone who posts a fact on here with no evidence), yet are happy to accept at book as the given truth .... based on no hard evidence, per say.
Cant we all just have a religion that teaches us to be kind and moral for the sake of being kind and moral?
Just a thought.
Im not a religous man, and i do belive in a higher power (reminds me of another thread not long ago... ), and i also celebrate christmas, not because of the religious reason, but rather because i love seeing people get along and giving. Why cant we all be nice all year round, give for the sake of giving, not just for christmas.
My 10 cents ramble.
Last edited by MashedPotato; 12-09-2007 at 04:12 AM.
12-10-2007, 05:43 PM
I like to picture Jesus as a 3 layer chocolate cake with a jetpack. Cus then he'd be really cool, but also extremely delicious.
12-11-2007, 12:13 PM
Religions were man made. They were created by humans and not by God. Basically any particular religion take a piece of the bible. torrah, etc and chooses to worship in a particular way to a particular passage. Not one will follow the entire book of stories and follow the worship in totality. Although I do find Pentecostals to do this in the closest way intended by God.
Now as for the book having evidence. Of course it does! most prohecy's of the old told about hte new Testament and about 2300 have come to pass so far which is a little past half that were prophesized.
1. There is an almighty GOD not plural
2. There are people who worship false Gods (Lucipher, Buddha, Alah, etc) whcih in turn are presumed to be bad spirits
3. Leading with Faith and not by human intellect is what is intended by the almighty father to make us sinners worthy enough to have eternal life with him. The first Adam messed that up by choosing Eve over God so ALL were born into sin from there on out. Except Jesus who was born of the Virgin Mary so that he could be WITHOUT sin and live a perfect life in order to teach us how to worship, pray, and praise God. There are reasons why we are baptized more than just at birth becuase there are a series of steps one must take to become cleansed and filled with the Holy Ghost which is the ultimate task in getting Right with God.
Lots of things and other religions make sense and have logic but God is not a logical God because logic is to easy for one to comprehend and would not make Him unique if we totally understood Him. If you really look at the religions and how most are the "I'm right your wrong attitude" You'll really see that religion was formed by the enemy called Satan to cause strife and lead us away from God.
All we are.......pawns in a Chess match between Satan and God
12-11-2007, 01:13 PM
The oldest religions were all polytheistic. If you read the OT the term elohim is in fact plural, which makes you wonder about OT tradition and polytheism. Also, when you look at the 10 commandments, "you are to worship no other god but me", sort of leads us to believe there are others.
Also, the Buddha was never a god, and never claimed to be.
12-11-2007, 01:14 PM
If it were as simple as knowing what God intended then we would not have the splits in religions like we do.Although I do find Pentecostals to do this in the closest way intended by God.
12-11-2007, 01:23 PM
No disrespect taken. Some do worship the idols who weree prophets which in turn makes then "like" a God. My statement is based on that none of the biblical stories mention a particular religion as being CHOSEN. Now Jewish in Christian views are considered the "chosen people" of God but in new Testament the mentiuon in Rev of 7 churches is actually 7 holy cities and the real church would be considered Jesus the body of the church per sei.
12-11-2007, 03:37 PM
I'm not being disrespectful at all, I may be misunderstanding what you wrote. TRUE, no chosen religion is pointed out, there's no verse that states, "and thus shall be thine religion" but God was pretty peaved whenever the jews strayed away from worshiping ANYTHING else other then Himself, which I think sort of implies the whole Chosen issue. The whole issue with the Jews being discouraged to marry outside their tribe isn't an issue of God frowning upon mixed ethnic marriages (as its been wrongly taken out of context by racist preachers everywhere), but the issue was marrying outside of the jewish tribe meant the risk of incurring the culture of the other tribe, which meant incurring their tradition of worshiping their God(sssss) and God was reeeaaally against that, so again, I believe that implies the "Chosen Religion" (and I hate the word Religion) issue. I won't even get into the whole, "I am the way, the truth and the light, no one comes before the Father except through me" thing.
And Christians are not chosen, just the Jews. Christians were/are pegans brought under the blood of Christ, but not "the chosen people" like the Jews were. I'm not arguing for the record, again, I may have misunderstood what you wrote and I'm clarifying as friendly and non-confrontational as possible.
Revelations is a bit mysterious because its so metaphorical, but I can't disagree with any point where Jesus is made the superlative of the message, so, that interpretation sounds solid to me.
NSCA - CSCS
12-11-2007, 03:44 PM
None taken. God had taken the Jews from Egypt and brought them to their promise land of Israel. Back then the Gentiles, Jews, Ecclesiates, etc were all considered tribes. By the blood of Christ all will be allowed into the heavens whether they were Jew, Gentile, Catholic, Baptist, Buddha but ALL have to recognize Jesus to do so according to scipture. There are groups called Messianic Jews whom believe Jesus as more than just a prophet or a carpenter. Who knows why He did what he didi or why He choses to create the diversity the way he did. to prove a point? who really knows until that time comes for you to cross over
12-11-2007, 06:41 PM
not really sure I understand where you are going. In essence, originally the teachings of jesus were not intended to create a religion but reform Judaism. It was until Paul (Saul) really turned himself into a new person (and new name) and started to pursue christianity.
However, my other pointed seemed to be glossed over. Based on the readings in teh OT, god was called elohim, which is in fact plural. Polytheism was the typical belief system of the time. Now, it truly is not until the Amarna period and Akhenaton do we see an "organized" monotheistic belief. However, if the exodus happened it happened during the 18th dynasty in Egypt just slightly earlier, same dynasty as Akhenaton.
My point (after all my rambling) is that polytheism based on sheer time has been the truest form and even the OT makes reference to it.
Also, if you are interested read some of Roman historian Pliny the younger. He had an interesting take on the early Chirstians from a Roman view.
12-11-2007, 08:05 PM
From Trajan to Pliny:
(Book 10, I believe).that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance
Sounds familiar, no?
12-11-2007, 08:15 PM
Despite the discussion in this thread, and the existence of a god or gods notwithstanding, a brief anthropological view of history reveals a certain pattern; that one interminable link exists between all dominant cultures (empires) and their idealogues-they, in the specific form originally induced, always fall.
Now, this does not necessitate a complete abandoning of the positive moral aspects of any one creed, society, or religion. As we see in the case of Greek-to-Roman polytheistic tradition, and Greek/Roman-to-Western European democratic exchange, the continuum dialogue of human history retains qualities while abandoning others. In the dialectic thus far, very few elements have retained a certain degree of permanence needed to exhibit inter-millennial use.
One of the most immediate factors which has caused Judeo-Christian values to pervade is their propensity to engrain themselves within the dominant economic values of the time. More than any other religion, Judaism and Christianity (Protestantism, in particular) stress productive normative values, masked as 'good works'. Whether motives ulterior or not, Christians have been stressed to be 'fruitful and multiply' an idealogue which has been consistently conflated with methods of capital and commodity exchange. But, that too, like any other facet of existence has an impermanence which is unavoidable. The greatest illusion is one of continuity, especially as it pertains to social relations.
12-12-2007, 01:25 AM
12-12-2007, 01:53 AM
Too tired to reply with anything that logistically contribute at this point, but do know I have my "piece" to share in the morning.
12-12-2007, 01:56 AM
12-12-2007, 08:00 AM
12-12-2007, 12:51 PM
12-12-2007, 01:42 PM
All I have to say is this. We can sit here and argue about history and whose religion is better and why...and proving this and that. But here is what you cannot argue with me about even for a second. And that is my experience and what I know to be true. I accepted Jesus into my life about 4 years ago, I was on the "down and outs" and really had nowhere to go and no one left to turn to for answers. So I thought I am going to give this a try. Well that is the best decision I have ever made. I began to search Him out in prayer and in the Word (Bible) for all my anwers, and they were ALL there and more.
My point is this...in my opinion it is not about a religion at all. It is about a relationship and no one on this board or anywhere else in the world can convince that I don't have an actual ongoing relationship with Jesus Christ. He has proven Himself to me WAY too many times over and over again. Every time I humble myself and pray He meets my need.
This is the thing that kills me about most Christians, they spend all their time fighting with other people and trying to convince them of something that THEY WILL NEVER CONVINCE ME OF THEM. People have been fighting over "who is right and who is wrong" for hundreds of years. And this is still going on today in this thread as we speak.
So I do my best to stay out of debates and arguments and spend my time trying my best to be more and more like Christ and walk the way He walked the earth (see the Gospels). That is what it is all about in my opinion, giving love to people who need it, lending a hand to people in need. Mullet see this ---> Not because it is a "work", but because I truly want to and desire to help people. Do you have to be a Christian to have this desire? No. But when you are a Christian I would hope that is one desire you would have
Just so all of you know, I am no cook. My brain functions perfectly and I am totally normal. I have NO judgement for anyone else beliefs and I am your friend just as much as any Christian friend I have.
Don't ask me questions because I am not here to debate. I have said my piece and now I am done. Hope you all have a wonderful day.
12-12-2007, 02:24 PM
12-12-2007, 04:20 PM
12-12-2007, 04:44 PM
Mullet is ****ing the thesaurus again... takes me longer to get through one of his paragraphs than War and Peace. lol
Love ya babes
Main Entry: imĚpeĚtus
Etymology: Latin, assault, impetus, from impetere to attack, from in- + petere to go to, seek — more at feather
1 a (1): a driving force : impulse (2): incentive, stimulus b: stimulation or encouragement resulting in increased activity
2: the property possessed by a moving body in virtue of its mass and its motion —used of bodies moving suddenly or violently to indicate the origin and intensity of the motion
12-12-2007, 04:44 PM
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