[Mulletsoldier]

Originally Posted by Irish Cannon

I think it would be a better translation to say that Christmas is a spin-off of what was a pagan holiday. Christmas is exactly what it is; a celebration of the birth of Jesus.

Definitely interesting stuff, though. I just read up on the history of Christmas.

Definitely. If you're up for some further reading, research the Ecumenical Councils, which decided the NT's canons, church hierarchy, as well as some universally taken for granted christian facts.

Among other major Christian tenets, these councils determined the legitimacy of jesus's divinity, the existence of an incorporeal god-head (as opposed to the father, son, and holy spirit being of different form and matter [which is still argued by some denominations, see: Jehovah's Witnesses, as they deny all Ecumenical Councils]). Among the research therein, it is definitely quite interesting to see the arrival of certain theological elements in the NT, as well as the genesis of certain festivals, rituals, etc., that are often taken for granted as 'always have beens'.

[Reaper329]

Originally Posted by BLADE74

None started, the whole bible is a love story BUT the old testament was mainly law, the new testament was when the second Adam (Jesus) came down to show us how to worship and pray. Both are loving no doubt but now the Laws are embedded in our hearts and we no longer need the Old unless we want to reverty back to some things we have questions about. Sorry If my post came off like there was no love in old testament.

Just having a little fun, the OT in general is a fairly angry book when read in its entirety, IMO

[Reaper329]

Originally Posted by Irish Cannon

I think it would be a better translation to say that Christmas is a spin-off of what was a pagan holiday. Christmas is exactly what it is; a celebration of the birth of Jesus.

Definitely interesting stuff, though. I just read up on the history of Christmas.

the only small issue with that is that according to the scenery as described in the bible, Jesus was not born in December. It is based primarily on Sol Invictus, with other references on Mithrasism.

It is totally understandable for cultures to intermingle traditions in this way. I mean the greeks and romans shared the same gods with different names, it makes sense for it to be in this fashion

[Mulletsoldier]

Originally Posted by Reaper329

Just having a little fun, the OT in general is a fairly angry book when read in its entirety, IMO

I agree with that totally. The Torrah and New Testament were never meant to be combined, and that was actually a conscious decision of the councils mentioned above to amalgamate them. If it seems there is a disjunction between the two, there is. The Torrah was written with no intention to be combined with, or form the basis of, another religion.

[joeymutz]

Originally Posted by BLADE74

Moses didn't part the sea, God did. It's ok that you feel the way you feel. If anything, you can read a great love story called the bible about a God who loved his people soo much he'd move the waters, mountains, for them. But if you are coming on this thread to cause strife, please don't. Non-believers need not apply. I pray in the name of Jesus that he bring you salvation and show you his face. I've got many personal experiences with the Holy Spirit. I've spoken in Holy tongues, I've been filled with the visions of the holy ghost, I know He is real. Someday you will to my friend. Some eyes have been shielded from Jesus for good reasons but in the end we all find out the truth.

I'm definitely not trying to cause strife just voicing my opinion. I was actually raised catholic and have made my conformation. It wasn't until i lived in korea for a year that i realized i"m not a believer. I honestly think the bible was made up by certain people to keep things from becoming total chaos. I do think it is a great thing that people believe in something, it gives you hope that when you die there is an afterlife. i believe there is an afterlife but not heaven or hell. i believe our energy goes somewhere else and we are reborn again. That may sound stupid to some but hey that what keeps me in check. if ur negative and a bad person you are bad energy, and you will not be happy with where your energy goes. it's interesting when you get to view first hand what other cultures believe and how it can change what you were FORCED to believe.

[Jayhawkk]

I don't know about the birth of Christ since he wasn't born in December... Don't get me wrong, since i'm a believer in Christ i just think that man corrupts and bends everything to suit his needs that we have to look much deeper to find the truth as it was meant to be and not as it is shown to us on the surface. Christmas today is rarely if ever celebrated in anyone's name, other than the almighty dollar.

Just an old, angry man's observation.

[Irish Cannon]

Originally Posted by Jayhawkk

I don't know about the birth of Christ since he wasn't born in December... Don't get me wrong, since i'm a believer in Christ i just think that man corrupts and bends everything to suit his needs that we have to look much deeper to find the truth as it was meant to be and not as it is shown to us on the surface. Christmas today is rarely if ever celebrated in anyone's name, other than the almighty dollar.

Just an old, angry man's observation.

Ya, I didn't necessarily mean it's Jesus' exact birthday, just a celebration of it, or the celebration of such an amazing savior. I fully agree with you that Christmas is more commercial than anything these days. Linus had it right the first time...

[bpmartyr]

Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier

I agree with that totally. The Torrah and New Testament were never meant to be combined, and that was actually a conscious decision of the councils mentioned above to amalgamate them. If it seems there is a disjunction between the two, there is. The Torrah was written with no intention to be combined with, or form the basis of, another religion.

If you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, which I do, you might see things a little different. An omnipotent being would indeed have inspired the writings knowing full well they
would be combined as the New is the fulfillment of the old. Christ said: "I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it."

The old testament is full of prophetic references to the messiah, whom Christians believe is Jesus and those who remain in Judaism are still waiting for Him.

In Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

This is a direct reference to Psalm 22. Psalm 22 is especially amazing since it predicted 11 separate things about Jesus’ crucifixion about a thousand years before they happened.

The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15- Galatians 4:4

The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed. Genesis 12:3; 18:18 - Acts 3:25,26

The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah. Genesis 49:10 - Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33

The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses . Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23

The Messiah will be the Son of God. Psalm 2:7 - Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22

The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected). Psalm 16:10,11 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32

The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30

The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked. Psalm 22:7 - Luke 23:11,35-39

The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet. Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27

The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death). Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 - John 19:31-33,36

Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing. Psalm 22:18 - Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24

The Messiah will accused by false witnesses. Psalm 35:11 - Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57

The Messiah will be a born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 - Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35

The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-7 - Matthew 4:12-16

The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47

The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31

The “Gospel according to Isaiah” Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John

People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD” (Messiah). Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38

The Messiah will be killed. Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30

The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14

The Messiah will be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42

The Messiah will be crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33

The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf). Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15

The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7

The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey. Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11

The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver. Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10

The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples. Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56

Just to name a few. And a council decided these should be joined together? I would say they made a good call.

[Mulletsoldier]

Originally Posted by bpmartyr

If you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, which I do, you might see things a little different. An omnipotent being would indeed have inspired the writings knowing full well they
would be combined as the New is the fulfillment of the old. Christ said: "I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it."

The old testament is full of prophetic references to the messiah, whom Christians believe is Jesus and those who remain in Judaism are still waiting for Him.

In Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

This is a direct reference to Psalm 22. Psalm 22 is especially amazing since it predicted 11 separate things about Jesus’ crucifixion about a thousand years before they happened.

The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15- Galatians 4:4

The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed. Genesis 12:3; 18:18 - Acts 3:25,26

The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah. Genesis 49:10 - Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33

The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses . Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23

The Messiah will be the Son of God. Psalm 2:7 - Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22

The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected). Psalm 16:10,11 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32

The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30

The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked. Psalm 22:7 - Luke 23:11,35-39

The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet. Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27

The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death). Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 - John 19:31-33,36

Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing. Psalm 22:18 - Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24

The Messiah will accused by false witnesses. Psalm 35:11 - Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57

The Messiah will be a born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 - Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35

The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-7 - Matthew 4:12-16

The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47

The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31

The “Gospel according to Isaiah” Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John

People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD” (Messiah). Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38

The Messiah will be killed. Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30

The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14

The Messiah will be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42

The Messiah will be crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33

The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf). Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15

The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7

The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey. Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11

The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver. Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10

The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples. Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56

Just to name a few. And a council decided these should be joined together? I would say they made a good call.

Well, there is obvious fallacy there, insofar as the claim to universality of god's inspired word. If such was true, denominational segregation would not exist, as all canon would have essentially the same interpretation. But, I digress.

I believe it was not until 350 AD when the Torah and NT were combined, so, yes, a council did decide they should be amalgamated though I am not sure the specific name.

[brogers]

Originally Posted by BLADE74

None started, the whole bible is a love story BUT the old testament was mainly law, the new testament was when the second Adam (Jesus) came down to show us how to worship and pray. Both are loving no doubt but now the Laws are embedded in our hearts and we no longer need the Old unless we want to reverty back to some things we have questions about. Sorry If my post came off like there was no love in old testament.

Interestingly, I'm a Christian, buy Proverbs is probably my favorite book.

Any person can apply the wisdom from that book into their lives, regardless of their religion (or lack thereof), and reap massive benefits.

[BLADE74]

Originally Posted by brogers

Interestingly, I'm a Christian, buy Proverbs is probably my favorite book.

Any person can apply the wisdom from that book into their lives, regardless of their religion (or lack thereof), and reap massive benefits.

That's why I had mentioned if anything it is a great love story and has many great moral principals. One can be non religious to say the least and still lead a good, moral, life. What people failt to recognize is that many are false religions and all are man-made. Whether one believes in a higher power or GOD or sun God or whatver they are good people when they don't follow sexual immorality, steal, hurt, murder, etc. Proverbs is an awesome book that some can say gave thr fortune cookies the saying they have or ancient chinese wisdom. lol

[ReaperX]

I like the book of Job. It relates to our own suffering today.

[Irish Cannon]

I most definitely believe that the Old Testament and New Testament were meant to be brought together. The New Testament fullfills so much prophecy found in the Torrah.

I think what a lot of people fail to do when they read the Bible is truly study the words. They read it line by line, and to truly understand the Bible, you must really dig into it. Ask the questions, "Who? What? When? Where? Why?" - There are lots of parts in the Bible (Old and New Testament) that speak only to a specific group of people for a specific reason.

I often hear people bringing up parts of the Old Testament, such as the slaughter of children and women, as in the city of Jericho. They ask, "If God loves everyone, why would he let that happen to people?" - You MUST take out the bad before you can begin the good. I have no problem believing that some people (even children in certain cases) are so beyond twisted that they can no longer be transformed into a respectable person. Not to mention, some parts of the Bible where murderous acts have taken place, God never wanted to happen; much of it is to show how terrible one truly is, and how God's love can transform an evil heart.