- 12-06-2007, 05:56 PM
- 12-06-2007, 05:56 PM
12-06-2007, 05:57 PM
12-06-2007, 06:01 PM
12-06-2007, 08:48 PM
12-06-2007, 09:07 PM
Among other major Christian tenets, these councils determined the legitimacy of jesus's divinity, the existence of an incorporeal god-head (as opposed to the father, son, and holy spirit being of different form and matter [which is still argued by some denominations, see: Jehovah's Witnesses, as they deny all Ecumenical Councils]). Among the research therein, it is definitely quite interesting to see the arrival of certain theological elements in the NT, as well as the genesis of certain festivals, rituals, etc., that are often taken for granted as 'always have beens'.
12-06-2007, 09:08 PM
12-06-2007, 09:10 PM
the only small issue with that is that according to the scenery as described in the bible, Jesus was not born in December. It is based primarily on Sol Invictus, with other references on Mithrasism.
It is totally understandable for cultures to intermingle traditions in this way. I mean the greeks and romans shared the same gods with different names, it makes sense for it to be in this fashion
12-06-2007, 09:11 PM
12-06-2007, 09:27 PM
12-06-2007, 10:54 PM
I don't know about the birth of Christ since he wasn't born in December... Don't get me wrong, since i'm a believer in Christ i just think that man corrupts and bends everything to suit his needs that we have to look much deeper to find the truth as it was meant to be and not as it is shown to us on the surface. Christmas today is rarely if ever celebrated in anyone's name, other than the almighty dollar.
Just an old, angry man's observation.
12-06-2007, 11:09 PM
12-07-2007, 12:44 AM
would be combined as the New is the fulfillment of the old. Christ said: "I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it."
The old testament is full of prophetic references to the messiah, whom Christians believe is Jesus and those who remain in Judaism are still waiting for Him.
In Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
This is a direct reference to Psalm 22. Psalm 22 is especially amazing since it predicted 11 separate things about Jesus’ crucifixion about a thousand years before they happened.
The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15- Galatians 4:4
The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed. Genesis 12:3; 18:18 - Acts 3:25,26
The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah. Genesis 49:10 - Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33
The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses . Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23
The Messiah will be the Son of God. Psalm 2:7 - Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22
The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected). Psalm 16:10,11 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32
The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30
The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked. Psalm 22:7 - Luke 23:11,35-39
The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet. Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27
The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death). Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 - John 19:31-33,36
Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing. Psalm 22:18 - Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24
The Messiah will accused by false witnesses. Psalm 35:11 - Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57
The Messiah will be a born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 - Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35
The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-7 - Matthew 4:12-16
The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47
The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31
The “Gospel according to Isaiah” Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John
People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD” (Messiah). Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38
The Messiah will be killed. Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30
The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14
The Messiah will be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42
The Messiah will be crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33
The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf). Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15
The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7
The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey. Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11
The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver. Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10
The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples. Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56
Just to name a few. And a council decided these should be joined together? I would say they made a good call.
12-07-2007, 06:35 AM
I believe it was not until 350 AD when the Torah and NT were combined, so, yes, a council did decide they should be amalgamated though I am not sure the specific name.
12-07-2007, 09:40 AM
12-07-2007, 09:49 AM
12-07-2007, 09:58 AM
12-07-2007, 10:09 AM
I most definitely believe that the Old Testament and New Testament were meant to be brought together. The New Testament fullfills so much prophecy found in the Torrah.
I think what a lot of people fail to do when they read the Bible is truly study the words. They read it line by line, and to truly understand the Bible, you must really dig into it. Ask the questions, "Who? What? When? Where? Why?" - There are lots of parts in the Bible (Old and New Testament) that speak only to a specific group of people for a specific reason.
I often hear people bringing up parts of the Old Testament, such as the slaughter of children and women, as in the city of Jericho. They ask, "If God loves everyone, why would he let that happen to people?" - You MUST take out the bad before you can begin the good. I have no problem believing that some people (even children in certain cases) are so beyond twisted that they can no longer be transformed into a respectable person. Not to mention, some parts of the Bible where murderous acts have taken place, God never wanted to happen; much of it is to show how terrible one truly is, and how God's love can transform an evil heart.
12-07-2007, 10:11 AM
12-07-2007, 10:19 AM
"Thou he slay me I will maintain mine own ways" Is one of my favorites of Job. And yes Cannon, God did allow people be killed and also killed some himself in order to make known to the people he soo loved, WHO he was. Lots of people struggle with things when theyare bad ans say "If there's God then why did he allow this top happen" and the answer: Because he boils us like raw Gold and rids us of our impurities and then blows the top of it where all the soot formed to make us pure gold and ready to live our eternal life with Him. Another thing is that many people take their past as scars and never truly release them and I must say this to those who can't let it go.
There is nothing you can do NOW that will change your past, but EVERYTHING you do now will change your future!
Find the positive in every negative you have faced, and take life's chapters as lessons of growth for your future. Things DO happen for reasons and that's just so you can be a HOLY testimony for your God and help others remove the shield from their eyes and also see with Faith eyes not human.
12-07-2007, 10:24 AM
Also in terms of the OT prophecy, keep in mind that it is believed that with Jesus (yeshua) being a Nazarene, he would be an OT scholar. Therefore knowing what prophecy would need to be fufilled and when. That gave him foreknowledge of what actions need to be taken. Not saying that it is or isnt true, but just pointing out the facts.
12-07-2007, 11:01 AM
Besides, what would one have to gain even if this ruse was possible? No wealth, no women, torture and finally crucification.
And what of His followers who Proclaimed to be eye witnesses of the resurrected Christ? What did they have to gain for lying? Every one of his disciples were martyred. A man might die for something he believes to be true but certainly not for something he knows to be a lie.
12-07-2007, 11:02 AM
Over the course of a thousand years, the original significance of the "rebirth of the Sun" was replaced by the "birth of the Son", and the original meaning of the season was driven out, even though many ancient folk customs remain as part of the culture of the season.
While I completely agree that there is no Christmas without Christ, I must say: Jesus IS NOT the "reason for the Season"...and never has been.
12-07-2007, 11:14 AM
12-07-2007, 11:58 AM
I personally have on ulterior motives against christianity, but just a general aptitude toward investigation. I take nothing on face value, which, I feel, is a fundamental tenet of faith. A few things, though, I feel can be asserted in this regard. Firstly, the bible has contradictions, both intra- and inter-'canonly'. Whether they are of any significance is a personal distinction I am not qualified to make for anybody, but they are there. Secondly, the bible, despite its religious importance, is a historical text. This means that this book was written by real people, at a concrete place and time, with its own political, social, and economic agenda, which not more than likely, but most definitely, affected which canons became apocrypha. Whether any individual of faith chooses to accept this is of little concern to me, I will support your right to hold both your faith and that opinion in regards to it irrespective of your acceptance. Thirdly, the Judaic intention of the Torah, was not to create a book which would be later used in conjunction with any religious text, let alone form the basis of a new religion. This is an accepted historic 'fact' (fact in quotations, because any aspect of knowledge which presents itself as 'fact' as it pertains to the operations of individuals is a load of bull****) by historians and theologians alike. Once again, whether an individual of faith chooses to accept this or not is of little importance to me.
In my opinion, one of the main hindrances of in-faithed individuals is their detrimental view of these types of facts. In my eyes, accepting the fact the bible is a historical document affected by historical factors does not diminish the veracity of your faith. In fact, I feel it would do quite the opposite. If the bible is the inspired word of an incorporeal god-head, than separating the constituents of the bible which are inspired from such a god-head, from those which were corrupted, is seeking out and not damaging your faith.
I feel ignorance and openness are both non-denominational. It takes a certain acceptance of both sides in order to agree on any degree of inter-subjectivity. On one hand, believers must accept the historicity of the bible, and, on the other, non-believers must accept the intrinsic moral value the bible holds. A complete denial by either side, of either side, is merely ignorance. A philosopher once said, "the only facts which are universally untrue, are those which claim to be universally true".
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