Jesus Christ

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Calm down, pumpkin. I was laughing at the graphic, and not your opinion of it. If you would have held off your mini-tirade long enough to think about what I was saying, you would have realized I was agreeing with you.
    Note to everyone: I shouldn't have said what I said, and I sent my apology to Mullet.


  2. But, I do get your point...Reaper.
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  3. Of course Christmas is not a Christian holiday but one of pagan origin.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    Of course Christmas is not a Christian holiday but one of pagan origin.
    Definitely. Primarily Sol Evictus, an early Roman holiday celebrating the Winter Solstice. I believe Constantine (?) amalgamated the two in order to quell religious unrest in his empire. At the time Judaism, Paganism, and Christianity were all 'competing' so to speak within the Roman Empire. When Constantine ordered Christianity the 'official state religion' he needed a way to subsume the Pagans under that moniker. There was no way he could completely ban there practices, so many things practiced today as 'Christian' are actually Pagan hybrids.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    Of course Christmas is not a Christian holiday but one of pagan origin.
    I think it would be a better translation to say that Christmas is a spin-off of what was a pagan holiday. Christmas is exactly what it is; a celebration of the birth of Jesus.

    Definitely interesting stuff, though. I just read up on the history of Christmas.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Irish Cannon View Post
    I think it would be a better translation to say that Christmas is a spin-off of what was a pagan holiday. Christmas is exactly what it is; a celebration of the birth of Jesus.

    Definitely interesting stuff, though. I just read up on the history of Christmas.
    Definitely. If you're up for some further reading, research the Ecumenical Councils, which decided the NT's canons, church hierarchy, as well as some universally taken for granted christian facts.

    Among other major Christian tenets, these councils determined the legitimacy of jesus's divinity, the existence of an incorporeal god-head (as opposed to the father, son, and holy spirit being of different form and matter [which is still argued by some denominations, see: Jehovah's Witnesses, as they deny all Ecumenical Councils]). Among the research therein, it is definitely quite interesting to see the arrival of certain theological elements in the NT, as well as the genesis of certain festivals, rituals, etc., that are often taken for granted as 'always have beens'.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by BLADE74 View Post
    None started, the whole bible is a love story BUT the old testament was mainly law, the new testament was when the second Adam (Jesus) came down to show us how to worship and pray. Both are loving no doubt but now the Laws are embedded in our hearts and we no longer need the Old unless we want to reverty back to some things we have questions about. Sorry If my post came off like there was no love in old testament.
    Just having a little fun, the OT in general is a fairly angry book when read in its entirety, IMO
    Mr. Supps Board Rep

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Irish Cannon View Post
    I think it would be a better translation to say that Christmas is a spin-off of what was a pagan holiday. Christmas is exactly what it is; a celebration of the birth of Jesus.

    Definitely interesting stuff, though. I just read up on the history of Christmas.

    the only small issue with that is that according to the scenery as described in the bible, Jesus was not born in December. It is based primarily on Sol Invictus, with other references on Mithrasism.

    It is totally understandable for cultures to intermingle traditions in this way. I mean the greeks and romans shared the same gods with different names, it makes sense for it to be in this fashion
    Mr. Supps Board Rep

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    Just having a little fun, the OT in general is a fairly angry book when read in its entirety, IMO
    I agree with that totally. The Torrah and New Testament were never meant to be combined, and that was actually a conscious decision of the councils mentioned above to amalgamate them. If it seems there is a disjunction between the two, there is. The Torrah was written with no intention to be combined with, or form the basis of, another religion.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by BLADE74 View Post
    Moses didn't part the sea, God did. It's ok that you feel the way you feel. If anything, you can read a great love story called the bible about a God who loved his people soo much he'd move the waters, mountains, for them. But if you are coming on this thread to cause strife, please don't. Non-believers need not apply. I pray in the name of Jesus that he bring you salvation and show you his face. I've got many personal experiences with the Holy Spirit. I've spoken in Holy tongues, I've been filled with the visions of the holy ghost, I know He is real. Someday you will to my friend. Some eyes have been shielded from Jesus for good reasons but in the end we all find out the truth.
    I'm definitely not trying to cause strife just voicing my opinion. I was actually raised catholic and have made my conformation. It wasn't until i lived in korea for a year that i realized i"m not a believer. I honestly think the bible was made up by certain people to keep things from becoming total chaos. I do think it is a great thing that people believe in something, it gives you hope that when you die there is an afterlife. i believe there is an afterlife but not heaven or hell. i believe our energy goes somewhere else and we are reborn again. That may sound stupid to some but hey that what keeps me in check. if ur negative and a bad person you are bad energy, and you will not be happy with where your energy goes. it's interesting when you get to view first hand what other cultures believe and how it can change what you were FORCED to believe.

  11. I don't know about the birth of Christ since he wasn't born in December... Don't get me wrong, since i'm a believer in Christ i just think that man corrupts and bends everything to suit his needs that we have to look much deeper to find the truth as it was meant to be and not as it is shown to us on the surface. Christmas today is rarely if ever celebrated in anyone's name, other than the almighty dollar.

    Just an old, angry man's observation.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    I don't know about the birth of Christ since he wasn't born in December... Don't get me wrong, since i'm a believer in Christ i just think that man corrupts and bends everything to suit his needs that we have to look much deeper to find the truth as it was meant to be and not as it is shown to us on the surface. Christmas today is rarely if ever celebrated in anyone's name, other than the almighty dollar.

    Just an old, angry man's observation.
    Ya, I didn't necessarily mean it's Jesus' exact birthday, just a celebration of it, or the celebration of such an amazing savior. I fully agree with you that Christmas is more commercial than anything these days. Linus had it right the first time...


  13. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I agree with that totally. The Torrah and New Testament were never meant to be combined, and that was actually a conscious decision of the councils mentioned above to amalgamate them. If it seems there is a disjunction between the two, there is. The Torrah was written with no intention to be combined with, or form the basis of, another religion.
    If you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, which I do, you might see things a little different. An omnipotent being would indeed have inspired the writings knowing full well they
    would be combined as the New is the fulfillment of the old. Christ said: "I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it."

    The old testament is full of prophetic references to the messiah, whom Christians believe is Jesus and those who remain in Judaism are still waiting for Him.

    In Matthew 27:46
    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    This is a direct reference to Psalm 22. Psalm 22 is especially amazing since it predicted 11 separate things about Jesus’ crucifixion about a thousand years before they happened.

    The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15- Galatians 4:4

    The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed. Genesis 12:3; 18:18 - Acts 3:25,26

    The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah. Genesis 49:10 - Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33

    The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses . Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23

    The Messiah will be the Son of God. Psalm 2:7 - Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22

    The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected). Psalm 16:10,11 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32

    The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30

    The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked. Psalm 22:7 - Luke 23:11,35-39

    The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet. Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
    John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27

    The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death). Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 - John 19:31-33,36

    Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing. Psalm 22:18 - Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24

    The Messiah will accused by false witnesses. Psalm 35:11 - Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57

    The Messiah will be a born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 - Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35

    The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-7 - Matthew 4:12-16

    The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47

    The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31

    The “Gospel according to Isaiah” Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John

    People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD” (Messiah). Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38

    The Messiah will be killed. Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30

    The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14

    The Messiah will be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42

    The Messiah will be crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33

    The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf). Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15

    The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7

    The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey. Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11

    The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver. Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10

    The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples. Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56

    Just to name a few. And a council decided these should be joined together? I would say they made a good call.
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  14. Quote Originally Posted by bpmartyr View Post
    If you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, which I do, you might see things a little different. An omnipotent being would indeed have inspired the writings knowing full well they
    would be combined as the New is the fulfillment of the old. Christ said: "I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it."

    The old testament is full of prophetic references to the messiah, whom Christians believe is Jesus and those who remain in Judaism are still waiting for Him.

    In Matthew 27:46
    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    This is a direct reference to Psalm 22. Psalm 22 is especially amazing since it predicted 11 separate things about Jesus’ crucifixion about a thousand years before they happened.

    The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15- Galatians 4:4

    The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed. Genesis 12:3; 18:18 - Acts 3:25,26

    The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah. Genesis 49:10 - Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33

    The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses . Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23

    The Messiah will be the Son of God. Psalm 2:7 - Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22

    The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected). Psalm 16:10,11 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32

    The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30

    The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked. Psalm 22:7 - Luke 23:11,35-39

    The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet. Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
    John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27

    The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death). Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 - John 19:31-33,36

    Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing. Psalm 22:18 - Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24

    The Messiah will accused by false witnesses. Psalm 35:11 - Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57

    The Messiah will be a born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 - Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35

    The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-7 - Matthew 4:12-16

    The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47

    The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31

    The “Gospel according to Isaiah” Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John

    People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD” (Messiah). Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38

    The Messiah will be killed. Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30

    The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14

    The Messiah will be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42

    The Messiah will be crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33

    The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf). Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15

    The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7

    The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey. Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11

    The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver. Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10

    The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples. Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56

    Just to name a few. And a council decided these should be joined together? I would say they made a good call.
    Well, there is obvious fallacy there, insofar as the claim to universality of god's inspired word. If such was true, denominational segregation would not exist, as all canon would have essentially the same interpretation. But, I digress.

    I believe it was not until 350 AD when the Torah and NT were combined, so, yes, a council did decide they should be amalgamated though I am not sure the specific name.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by BLADE74 View Post
    None started, the whole bible is a love story BUT the old testament was mainly law, the new testament was when the second Adam (Jesus) came down to show us how to worship and pray. Both are loving no doubt but now the Laws are embedded in our hearts and we no longer need the Old unless we want to reverty back to some things we have questions about. Sorry If my post came off like there was no love in old testament.


    Interestingly, I'm a Christian, buy Proverbs is probably my favorite book.

    Any person can apply the wisdom from that book into their lives, regardless of their religion (or lack thereof), and reap massive benefits.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by brogers View Post


    Interestingly, I'm a Christian, buy Proverbs is probably my favorite book.

    Any person can apply the wisdom from that book into their lives, regardless of their religion (or lack thereof), and reap massive benefits.
    That's why I had mentioned if anything it is a great love story and has many great moral principals. One can be non religious to say the least and still lead a good, moral, life. What people failt to recognize is that many are false religions and all are man-made. Whether one believes in a higher power or GOD or sun God or whatver they are good people when they don't follow sexual immorality, steal, hurt, murder, etc. Proverbs is an awesome book that some can say gave thr fortune cookies the saying they have or ancient chinese wisdom. lol

  17. I like the book of Job. It relates to our own suffering today.

  18. I most definitely believe that the Old Testament and New Testament were meant to be brought together. The New Testament fullfills so much prophecy found in the Torrah.

    I think what a lot of people fail to do when they read the Bible is truly study the words. They read it line by line, and to truly understand the Bible, you must really dig into it. Ask the questions, "Who? What? When? Where? Why?" - There are lots of parts in the Bible (Old and New Testament) that speak only to a specific group of people for a specific reason.

    I often hear people bringing up parts of the Old Testament, such as the slaughter of children and women, as in the city of Jericho. They ask, "If God loves everyone, why would he let that happen to people?" - You MUST take out the bad before you can begin the good. I have no problem believing that some people (even children in certain cases) are so beyond twisted that they can no longer be transformed into a respectable person. Not to mention, some parts of the Bible where murderous acts have taken place, God never wanted to happen; much of it is to show how terrible one truly is, and how God's love can transform an evil heart.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    I like the book of Job. It relates to our own suffering today.
    Job was an AMAZING man. I have him on my myspace under the people I'd like to meet.

  20. "Thou he slay me I will maintain mine own ways" Is one of my favorites of Job. And yes Cannon, God did allow people be killed and also killed some himself in order to make known to the people he soo loved, WHO he was. Lots of people struggle with things when theyare bad ans say "If there's God then why did he allow this top happen" and the answer: Because he boils us like raw Gold and rids us of our impurities and then blows the top of it where all the soot formed to make us pure gold and ready to live our eternal life with Him. Another thing is that many people take their past as scars and never truly release them and I must say this to those who can't let it go.

    There is nothing you can do NOW that will change your past, but EVERYTHING you do now will change your future!

    Find the positive in every negative you have faced, and take life's chapters as lessons of growth for your future. Things DO happen for reasons and that's just so you can be a HOLY testimony for your God and help others remove the shield from their eyes and also see with Faith eyes not human.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Well, there is obvious fallacy there, insofar as the claim to universality of god's inspired word. If such was true, denominational segregation would not exist, as all canon would have essentially the same interpretation. But, I digress.

    I believe it was not until 350 AD when the Torah and NT were combined, so, yes, a council did decide they should be amalgamated though I am not sure the specific name.
    it was the 4th century with Hippo and Nicea I believe where this was decided.
    Also in terms of the OT prophecy, keep in mind that it is believed that with Jesus (yeshua) being a Nazarene, he would be an OT scholar. Therefore knowing what prophecy would need to be fufilled and when. That gave him foreknowledge of what actions need to be taken. Not saying that it is or isnt true, but just pointing out the facts.
    Mr. Supps Board Rep

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    it was the 4th century with Hippo and Nicea I believe where this was decided.
    Also in terms of the OT prophecy, keep in mind that it is believed that with Jesus (yeshua) being a Nazarene, he would be an OT scholar. Therefore knowing what prophecy would need to be fufilled and when. That gave him foreknowledge of what actions need to be taken. Not saying that it is or isnt true, but just pointing out the facts.
    So he decided where he would be born and whom he would be a descendant of? Do you realize how many prophesies there were regarding his ancestry, birth, ministry, death burial and resurrection? If you did, I don't think you would really pose that argument.

    Besides, what would one have to gain even if this ruse was possible? No wealth, no women, torture and finally crucification.

    And what of His followers who Proclaimed to be eye witnesses of the resurrected Christ? What did they have to gain for lying? Every one of his disciples were martyred. A man might die for something he believes to be true but certainly not for something he knows to be a lie.
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  23. Quote Originally Posted by Irish Cannon View Post
    I think it would be a better translation to say that Christmas is a spin-off of what was a pagan holiday. Christmas is exactly what it is; a celebration of the birth of Jesus.

    Definitely interesting stuff, though. I just read up on the history of Christmas.
    to be more precise, "Christmas" is a Christian observance grafted on to the pre-existing celebrations of the Winter Solstice (the olde 'Yuletide') in an effort to hijack a season that had held religious, spiritual and communal significance for many cultures for thousands of years before the coming of Christ.

    Over the course of a thousand years, the original significance of the "rebirth of the Sun" was replaced by the "birth of the Son", and the original meaning of the season was driven out, even though many ancient folk customs remain as part of the culture of the season.

    While I completely agree that there is no Christmas without Christ, I must say: Jesus IS NOT the "reason for the Season"...and never has been.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    to be more precise, "Christmas" is a Christian observance grafted on to the pre-existing celebrations of the Winter Solstice (the olde 'Yuletide') in an effort to hijack a season that had held religious, spiritual and communal significance for many cultures for thousands of years before the coming of Christ.

    Over the course of a thousand years, the original significance of the "rebirth of the Sun" was replaced by the "birth of the Son", and the original meaning of the season was driven out, even though many ancient folk customs remain as part of the culture of the season.

    While I completely agree that there is no Christmas without Christ, I must say: Jesus IS NOT the "reason for the Season"...and never has been.

    They're two seperate celebrations. Let those who worship the sun celebrate it how they so choose. I'll celebrate the birth of my savior and call it Christmas.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Irish Cannon View Post
    I most definitely believe that the Old Testament and New Testament were meant to be brought together. The New Testament fullfills so much prophecy found in the Torrah.

    I think what a lot of people fail to do when they read the Bible is truly study the words. They read it line by line, and to truly understand the Bible, you must really dig into it. Ask the questions, "Who? What? When? Where? Why?" - There are lots of parts in the Bible (Old and New Testament) that speak only to a specific group of people for a specific reason.

    I often hear people bringing up parts of the Old Testament, such as the slaughter of children and women, as in the city of Jericho. They ask, "If God loves everyone, why would he let that happen to people?" - You MUST take out the bad before you can begin the good. I have no problem believing that some people (even children in certain cases) are so beyond twisted that they can no longer be transformed into a respectable person. Not to mention, some parts of the Bible where murderous acts have taken place, God never wanted to happen; much of it is to show how terrible one truly is, and how God's love can transform an evil heart.
    Context is needed, most definitely, in regards to theological study; but that is an assertion, I feel, goes both ways. Often times agnostics and atheists approach the bible as literally, in a historical context, as fundamentalists which is not an adequate approach in receiving its intrinsic moral worth. Believers, on the other hand, mistakingly take the bible for a pretext which is without historicity, which is simply not the case. Proper study of the bible necessitates nuanced approaches, as a universal approach is misguided at best, and naive at worst (this is not directed at you, but in general).

    I personally have on ulterior motives against christianity, but just a general aptitude toward investigation. I take nothing on face value, which, I feel, is a fundamental tenet of faith. A few things, though, I feel can be asserted in this regard. Firstly, the bible has contradictions, both intra- and inter-'canonly'. Whether they are of any significance is a personal distinction I am not qualified to make for anybody, but they are there. Secondly, the bible, despite its religious importance, is a historical text. This means that this book was written by real people, at a concrete place and time, with its own political, social, and economic agenda, which not more than likely, but most definitely, affected which canons became apocrypha. Whether any individual of faith chooses to accept this is of little concern to me, I will support your right to hold both your faith and that opinion in regards to it irrespective of your acceptance. Thirdly, the Judaic intention of the Torah, was not to create a book which would be later used in conjunction with any religious text, let alone form the basis of a new religion. This is an accepted historic 'fact' (fact in quotations, because any aspect of knowledge which presents itself as 'fact' as it pertains to the operations of individuals is a load of bull****) by historians and theologians alike. Once again, whether an individual of faith chooses to accept this or not is of little importance to me.

    In my opinion, one of the main hindrances of in-faithed individuals is their detrimental view of these types of facts. In my eyes, accepting the fact the bible is a historical document affected by historical factors does not diminish the veracity of your faith. In fact, I feel it would do quite the opposite. If the bible is the inspired word of an incorporeal god-head, than separating the constituents of the bible which are inspired from such a god-head, from those which were corrupted, is seeking out and not damaging your faith.

    I feel ignorance and openness are both non-denominational. It takes a certain acceptance of both sides in order to agree on any degree of inter-subjectivity. On one hand, believers must accept the historicity of the bible, and, on the other, non-believers must accept the intrinsic moral value the bible holds. A complete denial by either side, of either side, is merely ignorance. A philosopher once said, "the only facts which are universally untrue, are those which claim to be universally true".
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