Another Marijuana Myth Goes Up In Smoke by Paul Armentano

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    He would be the idiot since he took it to that extreme that forced the cops hand. The cop didn't know anything else about this person. Just that he ran when making a simple traffic stop. You know how many stops that started out simple ended up killing officers?
    And this is the mindset I'm talking about, it doesn't even occur to you to question the reason for stopping him. In your mind the kill is justified because apparently all laws are worth killing for. I know damn well cops are killed, one of the first posters I saw when I was gonna go that route for a career was a cop in a pool of blood next to car, with the caption below "Routine traffic stop..." Point being though that you apparently won't even consider the idea that the laws bring about such situations. Maybe the laws are the reason every citizen is a God damn fleeing suspect and potential death threat. No one is killing cops because they bought some JD for a party, but if they have some coke in the trunk they just might.

    And there's many accounts of cops pulling out guns and killing people just sitting there minding their own business smoking a joint?
    Most people take the practical approach and surrender. That's their choice. Doesn't mean death is out of the picture or not what's driving the law though. But perhaps you'd like to look up on the web the number of drug raids and the like that go bad, and then the cops don't find what they were looking for. Look up the case of a Mr. Paz, he was killed in a mistaken drug raid on the wrong house. The cops siezed his savings too and tried to hold on to it under seizure laws even after it was shown Paz had nothing to do with drugs on any level. Just another necessary casualty of war to you I guess, maybe you'd think different if it was your father, wife or kid that was killed.

    At first I thought you actually had an arguement but as it turns out you don't. You just believe with what you believe and **** everything else. No amount of 5 dollar words or thesaurus ****ing will change the fact that you're a ****.
    No, it won't. Edit that before a mod does though, they might get mad. I don't give a **** though. I've tried talking and changing the laws from in the system, it doesn't work because the government has people like you brainwashed and thinking so irrationally it's useless. When you're dealing with someone like that you have to smack them a few times to get some sense into them, it's just the way of the world.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    Actually something that was said earlier would be something I could agree on.

    legal is but increase the penalties of crimes involving use. i.e.,driving while high etc. Making very stiff penalties for both children and parents for underage use(of course to and extent regarding parents who are shown to clearly play an active role). Strong penalties for use/selling/buying in school zones.

    I would also raise the legal limit to 25. At 21 you're having enough of a time trying to stay sober.
    Gee, we agree...
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  3. Doesn't matter about what the reason was to stop the guy. Why can't you understand this? If he led police on a high speed chase what normal thinking person would have done this with no reason?

    Again you're brining up incidence of mistakes or wrong doing. I can bring up more cases of drug users making violent offenses than you can of cops raiding the wrong house.

    EDIT
    Last edited by Jayhawkk; 06-12-2006 at 01:07 PM.

  4. Edit
    Last edited by Jayhawkk; 06-12-2006 at 01:08 PM.

  5. I support decriminalizing (personal amounts of) marijuana. Cops have better thing to worry about than petty drug busts. Legalizing? It sounds good in theory, but I'm not sure it'd work.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    Doesn't matter about what the reason was to stop the guy. Why can't you understand this? If he led police on a high speed chase what normal thinking person would have done this with no reason?
    The normal person who knows that even though they haven't hurt anyone, stolen anything or damaged property or in fact engaged in any act that would be considered traditionally criminal, but knows they might end up in prison because, God forbid!, they have a substance the government doesn't approve of. That aside, the main point is death is at the end of the enforcement of any law, because there is no point at which you or any other law enforcement official would say it's not worth it to pursue anymore. Even if you knew that all the person was guilt of was some minor violation, they'd better stand tall for the law or they're dead. Again it comes down to what I brought up with BP, subserviance. Perhaps a person would resist the enforcement of a law because the law is BULL**** and deserves to be scrapped.

    Again you're brining up incidence of mistakes or wrong doing. I can bring up more cases of drug users making violent offenses than you can of cops raiding the wrong house.
    Suppose you can, your point would be what? Not only did those people use drugs, I can guarantee you they also... DRANK MILK! They may have also, oh my God... EATEN FOOD! You're confusing correlation with causation and/or implicitness, and only because you were taught to think that way. There are plenty of drug users, the vast majority in my experience, whose only crime is the sale, aquisition and possession of the drugs. They are otherwise peaceful and law abiding. Once more, do we outlaw alcohol because some users drive under the influence, or get drunk and beat their wives? No, because the vast majority don't do those things and it would be absurd to make a law that indiscriminantly targets all users of alcohol because of the foul acts of a small subset of those users. It would also be absurd because it is obvious alcohol is not the cause of that behavior, it is at most a contribution element in the already ****ed up pathology of a moron with no self control, violent tendencies, etc. By your reasoning just because a few schmucks drive under the influence we should stop by the bar and lock up the whole happy hour crowd.

    And why should I edit it? You have flat out insulted me throughout this thread. used repeated words to try and discredit me and belittle the way I think.
    I have belittled you? You would happily throw me and people like me in prison for extended periods of time because of a bull**** law based on ignorance and misinformation. What am I supposed to do, be nice? To hell with that, I've had it with being nice to people who support such insanity. Not only does it not accomplish anything, they don't deserve niceness. I mean, do you lack any perception of what it is you do to people when you arrest them? You are ****ing people's lives up and they have done nothing to deserve it. Belittled you? Deal with it.

    I just didn't use your style of wording in the process of doing the same in return. I started with an opinion that differed and you started with the insults.
    Your opinion was a blithe dismissal of legalization, meanwhile people are rotting in jails, have had their careers and families trashed and their lives ****ed forever because of your opinion. Your opinion deserves belittlement. I'm not the one advocating throwing people in prison for smoking a weed I don't like. I'm not the one saying all users should be ****ed because a few behave like idiots. And I'm sick of being 'civil' towards people who would have happily torn my life to pieces.

    Let's go back to the red head analogy, it was bad I admit. Let's talk sodomy. There's no need for blowjobs, it's a purely voluntary behavior. So I guess all those sodomy laws on the books that were often selectively enforced against gays are fine by you, right? Guess they should just buck up and accept the consequences of their actions, right? After all, It's The Law. And we'll just ignore the fact that the consequences are totally invented by the government. Lest we forget there are people who think sodomy is just as indicative of a degenerate nature as you think drug use is. Should they all just rot in prison? No one is born with a joint between their lips, and no one is born needing a knob shine either when there are so many other ways to get their rocks off. So those laws must also be just fine and dandy by you. And they are complete bull**** as well.

    Criminalizing voluntary and consensual behavior that does not hurt or endanger other people, be it drug use, knob shines, religions or whatever, is anti freedom, anti liberty and anti american, not to mention immoral, unethical, unjust and just plain ****ing disgusting and irrational.

    And if a routine traffic stop is what causes the death of a cop and not the offender in your mind then argueing anything using logic or sense is out the window for you. If I stop you for a expired tag or dead tail light and i get shot and killed. in your mind I deserved it because the law was stupid. I'm just glad more of you aren't running around.
    Perhaps if the books weren't full of laws that made every single citizen an enemy combatant in the eyes of law enforcement, people would be less likely to shoot you. Perhaps if there weren't so many laws making it impossible to not break them just by cracking a fart people would be less jumpy when you pulled them over. I'm sure you're happy that there aren't many people like me running around, because much as I love freedom at this point in my life I'd have no qualms throwing you in prison over some bull**** law just to give you a dose of your own medicine. Hypocritical? Absolutely. Sue me.

    As for the edit I suggested you make, it was for your own preservation. I seriously doubt a mod would make much of it, but you never know. I don't care what people call me, especially those of your ilk. And now, after a night of drinking diet coke and hauling some drunks around (Oh my God, responsible drug users!?!??!?!?), I'm going to bed.

  7. You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CDB again.


    I don't smoke pot....But I believe in freedom.

    Keep fighting the good fight.

  8. Criminalizing voluntary and consensual behavior that does not hurt or endanger other people, be it drug use, knob shines, religions or whatever, is anti freedom, anti liberty and anti american, not to mention immoral, unethical, unjust and just plain ****ing disgusting and irrational.
    Amen.

  9. Parents Accused of Rewarding Sons With Pot


    Does a responsible person or two who does drugs means that the majority do? EDIT
    Last edited by Jayhawkk; 06-12-2006 at 01:08 PM.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    Parents Accused of Rewarding Sons With Pot


    Yeah, just because Oh my God, you know a responsible person or two who does drugs means that the majority do? But in the end my opinion happens to be the law and here's the kicker...Your opinion isn't and you have to live with it. Hopfully while you're transporting a car load of these people you get stopped and OMG! get your life screwed while you rot in prison making friends with bubba and learning to cry yourself to sleep at night thinking the whole time you should of went back to Amsterdam. Enjoy your life
    Jay! Don't talk like that bro. I know you and you're too good of a man to get all ****ty like that. You know how much I honor and respect cops and military personnel too, but CDB is basically right with most of this. Tell me one thing, are you the kind of cop that would have arrested that teacher with the pot? Or would you see that society really needed him more than the system did, confiscate his stuff and let him go? Thatís really the difference between a good cop that getís it and a mindless robot cop like CDB was talking about that only sees the law with no understanding of right or wrong in his heart.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    Yeah, just because Oh my God, you know a responsible person or two who does drugs means that the majority do?
    Yes, actually. Almost everyone uses drugs of some form or other, whether it's an over the counter cold medicine, aspirin, blood pressure meds, etc. Most of them are responsible.

    It's when we start picking and choosing which drugs are ok that it gets tricky. I have seen people drink a ton of coffee/energy drinks and act stupid and hyper. I've also seen people drink bottles of cough syrup to get high.

    And I when I used to smoke (I stopped about 2 years ago) I would watch a movie usually or listen to music, usually at home by myself. I liked it because the pot makes sensory input more interesting.

    I didn't bother anyone, I went to work everyday (and I never was high at work), and I didn't drive high.

    The fact that others may use a drug irresponsibly should have no bearing on my ability to choose to use it.

  12. I am still a little high from all that dope I smoked back in the 80's
    so it took me a while to read through this thread, does marijuana cause lung cancer or not?
    Laws are laws if you don't agree with them,you have the right to be a dissident, but that carries its own risks. If you think that you can change the Marijuana laws you must know somebody in "high" places. I don't want to pay taxes. Mostly because I think alot of the money collected is wasted on profiteers. Some of the money does useful things like support the social infrastructure and the people that make it work, so at least there is some good, which helps ease my dissent as I pay.
    When I examine the origin of the Income tax laws I find that there is a cloudy somewhat deceitful history of the people who designed and profit from the taxes that are collectsed(mostly bankers)
    You could apply the same examination to the original marijuana laws from 1936. They were spurred by histeria over "black jazz" musicians swinging into town to dope up the " white virgins" Marijuana role as a menace to society was started in xenophobia and rolls forward from that point.
    The smart money realized that people would pay good money for this guilty pleasure. The smuggling industries was started and funded by many well know tea and coffee importers. The magnitude of the profit they generated from the marijuana laws may never be known, but I am pretty sure they won't give up(legalize it) without a fight.

    Try and remember cops don't make laws. They are paid to
    enforce them..and just becuase something is your job doesn't make it right.

    ..."live free or die tryin" -Samuel Adam or maybe it was 50 cent

  13. Pot is not addictive. I have smoked pot off and on for the past 15 years. I find it helps me relax after an insane day at work followed by a 90 minute drive home. My fiance says that she notices that I am less tense and that my normal levels of anxiety are gone.

    I do not believe it impairs my workouts at all....I am 34 years old, 210 lbs (at 5'10") and am fairly lean...no idea on my bodyfat %, but I have good abs and my cardio sessions are always great. I have had no desire to do other drugs or experiment.
    I can go weeks or months without smoking pot and do not "crave" it. I look at it as a "tool" in my arsenal of staying fit, strong, and most importantly, sane.

    Gumbo

  14. Depends on the situation Dr.D. If I found a brick of pot in a guys car then I doubt I would have taken the pot and let the guy go because that would of put my family in danger. That guy would of basically thought I took the pot to smoke it myself.


    In my job I would of had two choices. 1. just let him go without taking a thing or 2. Arrest him. But i'm honest. I don't pull k-9 searches for just the hell of it. I don't search people's cars illegally and I don't go searching for more than i need to. If I would of pulled you over for a burnt tail light then you would of got a verbal and let go. I don't believe in suspicious cars. There's people who do suspicious acts.

    EDIT
    Last edited by Jayhawkk; 06-12-2006 at 01:09 PM.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    And anyone who basically tells me he wants me to see me dead or in jail and on and on can kill my ass. I can handle mature debates or arguements.
    Not for nothing, but that's exactly what you've been saying to me, every other person on this board who uses or has used, and by default every other user, past presetn and future. Or do you think going to jail is a vacation to look forward to? As for your last post directed at me, I loved it. It takes so little to bring out the inherently viscious nature of people like you. And yes, mindless enforcement of a law without concern for its justification or consequences is visciousness. I'm sick of giving a pass to people on the "I'm just following orders" or "It's my job" lines.

  16. EDIT
    I live my life based on my morals,values and life experiences and you live yours by however you decide.
    Last edited by Jayhawkk; 06-12-2006 at 01:09 PM.

  17. CDB, Jay -

    Everytime a thread on drug politics comes up it usually ends up the same way with you guys being overly viscious toward one another. I understand the fury caused by the clashing of totally opposing viewpoints - but please be civil about it.

    Try to focus on the things in life you both agree on, like lifting weights, supplementation, etc. Think happy thoughts. Remember what Bambi's mother said:

    "If you cant say anything nice, don't say anything at all"



    C'mon, doesnt that make you both smile?

    BV

  18. Understood BV and I appologise. I'll go back and edit all the insults.

  19. Went through and edited any insults but thre were a few so I may of missed one

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    The problem is there is no NEED now just a want. I want a lot of things but that doesn't mean I would risk doing time or getting a record. My problem is the euphoria reached with this drug is felt to be something that has to be had.

    If someone could give me a list of benefits of legalizing the drug because making it a non crime I could possibly be swayed(not that you care to sway me). It seems that the growing list of reasons are all circular with the laws of it.

    1. Not dealing with pushers
    2. Not crowding jail space
    3. Not ruining lives with criminal records

    Being a cop you learn that no matter what you make a stop or arrest for. That person thinks that you would be serving better by stopping people doing 'real crimes' no one thinks their crime is real. If you're worried about your life and criminal record then drink a beer or two instead of risking it all by buying/selling/smoking pot. Until a law changes that's the safe way and if you choose to break the law then so be it.

    I don't agree with many laws out there but it's hard to complain about them if I haven't actively went out and voted or did my best to change them. If you want pot legalized then get to work on it. Don't cloud it with fake issues like millions in jail for smoking a joint. Put real data and facts behind it.

    I would be willing to bet that most people willing to sacrifice their way of life for a little pot are also the ones willing to drive drunk, willing to steal, willing to not get auto insurance etc. Is this a bold and broad statement? Yup but what else can you say about people who complain about their lives being ruined but at the same time keep doing the crime that will ruin it? Harmless drug? Maybe or maybe not but it is illegal. You do it and you take the chance of punishment. The same if you speed, drink and drive, use steroids. It isn't like it's a hidden law you don't know about.

    I feel i should chime in, While i maybe talking about a friend(cough) this story maybe true or maybe false.

    Anyways, my friend is very bipolar and has server depression has been sucidal and on and off medication his intire life, my friend can't drink and has no desire to after doing it for a while lost its magic. Not mention the many many ill side effects that it can have, well my friend used to be against pot heavy til he did a very very very extensive college paper (Started off against Ganja use) and turned around after reading threw the DEA's Bull**** lies, eventaully the only test for my friend to do was to try it and judge its distructive nature. My friend after trying it has used it a couple of times when down to turn himself around, over all my friend has found its medical/relaxtion property's to be very benifitacal at controlling the mood swings and has no desire to do it again. But may do it again in the future while visiting amsterdamn(*where this all took place*)

    My friend didnt try any other drugs, Did'nt play with a gun and shot himself or a friend(as some comericals implicated) Didn't attempt to drive a car around, never went sold or advocated the spread of use to his friends/familys and others(outside of maybe telling me to add to this thread of misconcived notions) What i can say is after seeing how people act on Ganja compared to achahal that Ganja is far safer and alot more mellow, my friends defintly not new to see people under infulence of diffrent drugs and i must say that MJ happens to be the least ill effects and potenail good effects out of all the drugs out there. (Considering two of the most dangerous besides coke/meth are legal) Its too bad that the goverment can't see past its ill fated ways to except another safe drug that can be used at least medically if not reccerationally. Lets put it this way when i was in Amsterdamn people toked in lounges and were very normal and relaxed. These people weren't heavy drug users or scum bags they were normal bussiness class people relaxing with friends. Let me say i believe the reason MJ gets such a negivite rap is the normal people that won't break the law aren't doing it (for most part) and alot of regular crimnals who ignore the law anyways are doing it. So you can really only get a negivite picture of MJ. But if they allowed it to become legal you would see the same effect as Amsterdamn that it wouldnt have a negitvie effect it would be retrospectivally the same.

    Only there would be a safer option(IMHO) then drinking/smoking cig's

    Anyways medically they have found(get this) THE DEA recently maybe 2months ago. Hired 12 sceintist to conduct a study on the harmful/negitive effects and wanted to prove there was no medical usefullness. The scientist came back with stunning and opisit results. Making matters worse for the DEA instead of addmitting they were wrong they threw the findings out and claimed there old research was right.

    Talk about a load of ****, i'm sorry but trusting our goverment is worse then trusting the Supposivly informative Discovery Channel.
    (sorry always wanted to use there dumbasses as a analagy after watching last 5 years of crap they've spewed out)

    Anyways take the truth or leave it, and believe the great DEA who is so greatly protecting everyone from themselves(rofl)


    Dr L

  21. Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Try to focus on the things in life you both agree on, like lifting weights, supplementation, etc. Think happy thoughts.
    BV
    Good idea. This subject really pulls out the ******* in me.

  22. Anyways medically they have found(get this) THE DEA recently maybe 2months ago. Hired 12 sceintist to conduct a study on the harmful/negitive effects and wanted to prove there was no medical usefullness. The scientist came back with stunning and opisit results. Making matters worse for the DEA instead of addmitting they were wrong they threw the findings out and claimed there old research was right.

    Do you have links to this happening? Not that I put it past the gov't to do this. Also, what people need to consider is that Amsterdam isn't even remotely close to the US society/culture. Introducing something that works/worked in one doesn't mean it'll produce similar results in another.

  23. haha BV, just noticed that picture you posted...Was watching that yesterday :P

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Dr Liftalot
    My friend after trying it has used it a couple of times when down to turn himself around, over all my friend has found its medical/relaxtion property's to be very benifitacal at controlling the mood swings and has no desire to do it again. But may do it again in the future while visiting amsterdamn(*where this all took place*)
    The politicization of the science surrounding weed is pretty incredible. However, regarding use as an antidepressant your friend should use care. Weed is a psychoactive and depending on social setting, current mood and expectations, etc., can have the opposite effect and amplify negative emotions. It's relatively innocuous for most people, but those with mood disorders should exercise caution when using any drug, especially ones with mental effects like weed, acid, MDMA, etc. The effects can be very variable.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    Do you have links to this happening? Not that I put it past the gov't to do this. Also, what people need to consider is that Amsterdam isn't even remotely close to the US society/culture. Introducing something that works/worked in one doesn't mean it'll produce similar results in another.

    Fair enough, it was the headline in the seattle times, will do what i can to find it.

    But yes i will do that find it for you, you see i do understand where you are coming from, there was a time in my life where i felt as you do or perhaps did if you had/have gave some thought as to what has been said here. Strangly enough i thought MJ was so bad that i felt pot smokers should be beaten down and thrown in jail and considered them to be scum/crap/and less then normal people. I grew up around DARE all my life so by time i hit highschool and some people were on pot(of course the trouble makers) I automatically said this proves the point pot=trouble and was against it for years to follow until of course the project came along. And of course the trip to Amsterdamn, which opened my eyes to new possiblitys, that MJ is just like Guns in a way. (not corlating to any sort of the use for guns to MJ) But in the fact that in the countries where Guns are banned the criminals kept theres and kept defieing the law and for the most part good honest people gave theres up. *now comes for the link* And the same goes with pot, if we legalized it you'd have normal people getting high without the problems you described and you'd have the same scumbags doing it ether way, so in a way all the negitive things people do on pot could and would happen ether way because its not really pot, its just adverage pot smoker isnt a law abiding citizin for the most part anyways(of course not all are crimanals) but a good portion are already that so its not the MJ's fault.

    So what i'm trying get at is it would look just like amsterdamn and be just like achohol. You have people high class who drink and still have a job and have a family , pay tax's etc. And your gonna have Joe **** bag who robs banks drives under infulence and has a I don't give a **** attitude about life anyways. So basically the banning is dumb espically when it has Medical aplication, and i honestly say its a safer alternitve to drinking. In retrospect you don't see to many crazy people who get high and go fighting people. I mean it happens but with drinking i see it all the time.

    I defintly think they should try to tax and regulate its use and take the money out of the black markets hands. It can have very postive effects and there is no doubt in my mind that can be used safely, but the same with anything theres that 5% that will abuse it but theres nothing you can do about it because if it isnt MJ its gonna be drinking and if it isnt drinking its cough syripe etc.


    I challenge you to go abroad to Amsterdamn and try it once, and then form your thesis, look how they live and tell me it isnt as i described. You say its a diffrent culter i challenge that, because its just as diverse if not more. I defintly think that the US would look similar because we like them have whats called a education and would have people using it at all levels like now, but we would get tax money, not speading money on keeping people locked up for a victomless crime(IMHO) and generally its a fun thing to do.

    Dr Liftalot
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