Another Marijuana Myth Goes Up In Smoke by Paul Armentano

[Jayhawkk]

What? how much cheaper can boones farm, mad dog and steel reserve get?

[Mulletsoldier]

I am too lazy to write the whole spiel in my head, but I agree with points being made by both Jayhawkk and CDB. I concur with CDB that there is no direct correlation between Marijuana use and hard drug use. I base my opinion as both an individual who has done alot of research in addictions counselling, and an individual who had to go through addiction counselling for very serious drug use. The relationship, IMO, is more indirectly consequential, as opposed to a direct correlation. Jayhawkk, you used the example of individuals using OTC orals before supplementing injectable AAS. I would venture to say that is more a consqequence of availability, not something to get their feet wet. I believe alot of people would make that direct jump if they could.

Although I do agree with you on some points Jayhawkk, I agree with most, if not all of the points CDB has made. The studies previously conducted and used for proliferation of 'anti-pot' beliefs are truly filled with holes from a physiological standpoint. I should state that I despise hard drugs with my whole spirit. They almost ruined my life, and are a serious detriment and epidemic to today's youth. However, I do not believe you can place marijuana in that same category. If it was legalized, I believe it would have even more of an opposing effect to what you believe. The individuals that were drawn into harder drug use would be more than likely directed away from that life because there would be no need to deal with shady pushers.

[Jayhawkk]

The problem is there is no NEED now just a want. I want a lot of things but that doesn't mean I would risk doing time or getting a record. My problem is the euphoria reached with this drug is felt to be something that has to be had.

If someone could give me a list of benefits of legalizing the drug because making it a non crime I could possibly be swayed(not that you care to sway me). It seems that the growing list of reasons are all circular with the laws of it.

1. Not dealing with pushers
2. Not crowding jail space
3. Not ruining lives with criminal records

Being a cop you learn that no matter what you make a stop or arrest for. That person thinks that you would be serving better by stopping people doing 'real crimes' no one thinks their crime is real. If you're worried about your life and criminal record then drink a beer or two instead of risking it all by buying/selling/smoking pot. Until a law changes that's the safe way and if you choose to break the law then so be it.

I don't agree with many laws out there but it's hard to complain about them if I haven't actively went out and voted or did my best to change them. If you want pot legalized then get to work on it. Don't cloud it with fake issues like millions in jail for smoking a joint. Put real data and facts behind it.

I would be willing to bet that most people willing to sacrifice their way of life for a little pot are also the ones willing to drive drunk, willing to steal, willing to not get auto insurance etc. Is this a bold and broad statement? Yup but what else can you say about people who complain about their lives being ruined but at the same time keep doing the crime that will ruin it? Harmless drug? Maybe or maybe not but it is illegal. You do it and you take the chance of punishment. The same if you speed, drink and drive, use steroids. It isn't like it's a hidden law you don't know about.

[B4n3 0n3]

What? how much cheaper can boones farm, mad dog and steel reserve get?

Well ethanol would be 200 proof alchohal for what about $3 a gallon. If I was a drinkin man I know what I would be buyin!

[Jayhawkk]

I doubt it. Most don't drink alcohol to rip the lining out of their throat. Everclear isn't your usual party or weekend drink. Ones that an be tolerated and enjoyed are. And the ethanol is a 90% gas and 10% ethyl alcohol. The reason this is the case is becase any higher a % and cars would have to be updated to run that blend. This particualr blend allows all vehicles to run it.

[Mulletsoldier]

The problem is there is no NEED now just a want. I want a lot of things but that doesn't mean I would risk doing time or getting a record. My problem is the euphoria reached with this drug is felt to be something that has to be had.

If someone could give me a list of benefits of legalizing the drug because making it a non crime I could possibly be swayed(not that you care to sway me). It seems that the growing list of reasons are all circular with the laws of it.

1. Not dealing with pushers
2. Not crowding jail space
3. Not ruining lives with criminal records

Being a cop you learn that no matter what you make a stop or arrest for. That person thinks that you would be serving better by stopping people doing 'real crimes' no one thinks their crime is real. If you're worried about your life and criminal record then drink a beer or two instead of risking it all by buying/selling/smoking pot. Until a law changes that's the safe way and if you choose to break the law then so be it.

I don't agree with many laws out there but it's hard to complain about them if I haven't actively went out and voted or did my best to change them. If you want pot legalized then get to work on it. Don't cloud it with fake issues like millions in jail for smoking a joint. Put real data and facts behind it.

I would be willing to bet that most people willing to sacrifice their way of life for a little pot are also the ones willing to drive drunk, willing to steal, willing to not get auto insurance etc. Is this a bold and broad statement? Yup but what else can you say about people who complain about their lives being ruined but at the same time keep doing the crime that will ruin it? Harmless drug? Maybe or maybe not but it is illegal. You do it and you take the chance of punishment. The same if you speed, drink and drive, use steroids. It isn't like it's a hidden law you don't know about.

Jay, I just think the amount of capital involved in all facets of a drug arrest for simple Marijuana are ludicrous. At one time I will accept that it was a consensus crime, meaning it was felt to be a public danger and needed to be stopped. However, I no longer feel it is in the consensus or 'criminal' crime category. From not only a legal, but a sociological standpoint I think it's legaliztion, or at the very least de-criminalization has nothing but benefits. Let me give you an example Jay. Let's say you are out on patrol, you see a suspicious car and pull it over. Upon searching the car you find a copious amount of marijuana, in excess of 400 grams. However, it truly is only for the individuals personal use. Now, given the amount in most states this is cause for a trafficking or possession with intent to distribute charge, a fairly serious charge. Yet, the individual you pulled over is not a deviant, not a drug dealer, and is non-violent. In fact, he gives his time to various community charities, is a TA, and plans to be an elementary school teacher. Does society benefit at all from his imprisonment? No, it is detrimental, if only from a financial standpoint. Now, as a police officer you might find that scenario hard to believe, but it did happen, to one of my closest friends actually. He is now serving a very decent sentence and most likely will never be hired as a teacher. Now, you sway me as to why Marijuana should not be legal.

[Jayhawkk]

Sure, a school teacher would be educated and would also know that he was carrying too much at one time.


A couple of questions.

1. Why was this car suspicious?
2. Why was this cop able to search this vehicle to find the pot?
3. Why was this pot stored in anything other than a locked glovebox or trunk?
4. Was this 400 grams of pot in a brick form or stored in individual baggies making them believe intent was to sell?
I'm not saying your friend is a bad person. I also know that there are many upstanding people who are later found to have violated laws and they are usually weighed in when deciding punishment. Was this guy given a leniant sentence?

[Mulletsoldier]

Sure, a school teacher would be educated and would also know that he was carrying too much at one time.


A couple of questions.

1. Why was this car suspicious?
2. Why was this cop able to search this vehicle to find the pot?
3. Why was this pot stored in anything other than a locked glovebox or trunk?
4. Was this 400 grams of pot in a brick form or stored in individual baggies making them believe intent was to sell?
I'm not saying your friend is a bad person. I also know that there are many upstanding people who are later found to have violated laws and they are usually weighed in when deciding punishment. Was this guy given a leniant sentence?

1) In Canada any suspicion of drug content in the vehicle lies soley with the discression of the Officer.

2)Same as above

3)I'm not sure. Everybody has made mistakes.

4)No, one larger brick. However the Crown decided this was too large of an amount to reduce the charge to a summary conviction of simple Possession.It was fairly leniant. But do you consider ruining his carreer leniant?

[Jayhawkk]

Well, I can't comment on Canadian law but in the states there wouldn't of been probable cause to search the vehicle with what you described.

No I wouldn't consider it leniant but in all honesty he ruined his own career by taking that risk. I have sympathy for thse types of people becaus they are good people. Smoking pot does not make you a bad person. It makes you a person who broke the law.

But how does an officer get suspicion of drug content from looking at a vehicle? Smoke billowing out of the windows or was the car in a known drug area at 2am? This is what baffles me.

[Mulletsoldier]

Well, I can't comment on Canadian law but in the states there wouldn't of been probable cause to search the vehicle with what you described.

No I wouldn't consider it leniant but in all honesty he ruined his own career by taking that risk. I have sympathy for thse types of people becaus they are good people. Smoking pot does not make you a bad person. It makes you a person who broke the law.

But how does an officer get suspicion of drug content from looking at a vehicle? Smoke billowing out of the windows or was the car in a known drug area at 2am? This is what baffles me.

The city I live it, despite of it's size has a very large crack-cocaine problem. Per capita, probably one of the worst I have ever seen, especially amonst minors. It was late and he was coming home from his girls house, the guy from afar probably did not look very shady and the officer pulled him over. The officer smelt Marijuana, and then had probable cause for a search.

[Jayhawkk]

I see. Sorry for your friend's situation. I just wish that until the laws change people were more carfeul about putting themselves in these situations.

[CDB]

You're really misinformed here. And I am a cop and I also know that no one is searching a locked glovebox or trunk and I also know that no one is doing a complete search of your vehicle on a check point because those check points are decided ahead of time what they are searching not to mention they are all over the radio and tv to let you know in advance.

Once more, tell that to the cops out here. Your opinion is in direct conflict with reality as I've witnessed and personally experienced.

So if it's a harsh law they serve pen time and it's unfair but if they serve under a year in a local pen then it's to avoid stats???

Once more, your statements show how divorced from reality you are on this subject. When discussing the WoD, especially on marijuana, government and proprohibition reps routinely site federal statistics of people locked up for weed when they damn well know that the vast majority of people serving time for weed possession and dealing are in state and local prisons and jails. It's a nonsense strategy that takes about one second to see through, but it's still used to somehow convince people that law enforcement is only concerned with big fish.

<QUOTE]And those guys smoking at a concert had designated drivers right or took local transit?[/QUOTE]

Transit genius. People who live in Brooklyn don't often have cars as there are subways and cabs galore, and more often than not party busses to take you to the concert. A few friends of mine recently used such a bus that left from the Port Authority to the recent Pearl Jam concert. Your assumption seems to be that all users are irresponsible by default. That's your opinion I assume. It's bull****, but as I've said you're welcome to it.

What the **** ever. You're just not in a logical frame of mind to even debate this reasonably. Blame the others for your actions but remember that later on when you finally wise up and enter the real world.

My actions? Your reasoning seems to be that whatever the government decides to make illegal is just dandy, and anyone who violates the law however ridiculous, immoral and unethical that law is somehow has to 'take responsibility.' So I guess if they outlaw certain books all those authors they lock up will just have to ;take responsibility for their actions,' eh? ****ing bull**** subserviant state zombie attitude, and I'm so God damn sick of it. I truly hope one day the government decides it doesn't like something you or some member of your family does, and then they or you can 'take responsiblity' for your actions and sit and rot in prison next to some guy doing twenty years for possessing one more arbitrary dosage unit of weed or acid or whatever than the government thought he should have.

[CDB]

[QUOTE=bpmartyr]Are we even talking about the same thing here? These people knew what they were dong was against the law, gambled and lost.[.QUOTE]

So any question of whether or not the law is right or wrong is completely out. As said, you put the state above morals and ethics. If you don't, and a law is wrong, then no matter if someone broke it they don't deserve to be in prison.

All for a high. Fing stupid. You could say the same about me I guess. I gamble with my drug use but I will not whine that the laws are unfair or immoral if I am sitting in jail. That is just adolescent.

Tell that to the founders of this nation, one of the things they were especially pissed about was unfair imprisonment, usually the result of trial by hand selected jury or no jury at all. What a bunch of whiners.

It's not like people are killing millions of unborn babies and our laws do nothing to stop it or anything.

Been to Columbia lately, or any other nation getting ripped to shreds from corruption because of the massive criminal cash flow caused by prohibition? Seen people starving because their crops were destroyed by defoliant because some DEA ****head decided their might be weed or coca plants mixed in? Spent any time in Mexican border towns where they have dozens of murders if not more on a weekly basis by drug gangs? Oh wait, I'm sorry you're right, that's Pfizer and Phillip Morris doing that.

Furthermore, who decides what laws are good and bad? By what moral authority shall we use as the crux? What if I think molesting children is my right?

Be my guest. The classic example is usually when your actions adversly affect someone else, as injurring them or their property. Since molesting a kid hurts them, you'd justly be in prison. Since smoking weed or using any drug is not inherently dangerous or harmful to others, it doesn't count. The reason that standard is usually considered the best is because once you go beyond that any law is justified. Once you eliminate the need for a victim in a crime, all behavior is subject to criminal prosecution on the whim of law makers.

From what I see of the overall level of judgment of the average american ..... I am not impressed. I'll stick to following the laws we have, or at least accepting responsibility for my actions.

The laws we have... made by people who are elected by those with whom you are not very impressed...

You are intelligent CDB, I do not dispute that. I just think you lack perception at times. Perhaps due to your obsessive over-thinking. <---- Totally poking fun bro. It's all good.

I may rave a bit, that's because I've seen both the harm caused by *******s who use drugs and the harm caused by *******s who have devoted their lives to stomping out drug users, and the latter are by far more destructive and disturbing. Because I've seen entire inner city neighborhoods devastated by the War on Drugs and people, mostly blacks, skulking around in those neighborhoods just feeding their addictions and hatred. And no one gives a ****. Those neighborhoods are only growing, and it's the War on Drugs not the drugs that's causing this. Pretty soon they'll explode. The effects of this war are immense and horrible.

I haven't lost perception, I've perceived only too well. I may have lost perspective as I've seen a lot of otherwise good folks get ****ed to varying degrees by these laws. People who call a cab when they're drunk instead of driving, people who have called me and who I've picked up at train stations at five in the morning so they wouldn't have to drive. Perhaps that's where the difference lies as I was raised around people who used drugs responsibly and I know only too well that the laws don't discriminate between them and scum who perhaps do belong in prison.

[CDB]

The problem is there is no NEED now just a want. I want a lot of things but that doesn't mean I would risk doing time or getting a record. My problem is the euphoria reached with this drug is felt to be something that has to be had.

Just wait, eventually one of your wants will be criminalized. And you may comply, but if it doesn't at least cross your mind to ask who the **** is anyone to tell me I can't do x, y or z, I pity you.

If someone could give me a list of benefits of legalizing the drug because making it a non crime I could possibly be swayed(not that you care to sway me). It seems that the growing list of reasons are all circular with the laws of it.

No more gang violence surrounding the trade because of the removal of the black market. Safer products with legal recourse for those harmed by tainted products. Age restrictions that can be reasonably enforced to keep kids away from drugs. Massive savings in costs, not to mention lives saved, corruption stiffled and no morekids who made one mistake getting saddled with criminal records essentially screwing them for life.

Being a cop you learn that no matter what you make a stop or arrest for. That person thinks that you would be serving better by stopping people doing 'real crimes' no one thinks their crime is real.

Perhaps they have a point? Perhaps you can explain the reason why it's necessary to live under a legal structure where it's literally impossible to walk down the street without breaking about ten trillion laws per mile? Suppose one of those people violated a small law, a ridiculous one. Say they merged to the right to make a turn before the turning lane started. That's illegal you know. Suppose they resisted arrest. What would you do? Suppose they resisted to the point where you were in a position where killing them was the only option? Oh yeah, there's the rub of it: all laws are enforced with the threat of death. Don't believe me, break a law and resist its enforcement on you at every level. You'll be dead soon enough. Or perhaps so long as there are unsolved murders perhaps cops shouldn't be out handing out parking tickets. But then again that's important revenue...

I don't agree with many laws out there but it's hard to complain about them if I haven't actively went out and voted or did my best to change them. If you want pot legalized then get to work on it. Don't cloud it with fake issues like millions in jail for smoking a joint. Put real data and facts behind it.

I did. I was an activist for quite some time on the subject. But perhaps you'd like to explain how the laws are supposed to be changed if no one changes their mind on this issue and the government has everyone brainwashed that if weed is legalized soon 13 year olds will be whoring themselves out behind dumpsters for a hit? People like me I guess we're supposed to change people's minds without engaging them at all, right? change the law, but shut up while you're doing it and don't try and convince anyone you're correct that it should be changed. Gee, that's an effective strategy.

I would be willing to bet that most people willing to sacrifice their way of life for a little pot are also the ones willing to drive drunk, willing to steal, willing to not get auto insurance etc. Is this a bold and broad statement? Yup but what else can you say about people who complain about their lives being ruined but at the same time keep doing the crime that will ruin it?

Because that is the biggest bull**** statement you've made thus far. The ONLY reason their lives will be destroyed by weed use is because the government has stepped in and decided to make it a crime. By that standard you could outlaw red hair and those who had the gaul, the temerity to say, "Hey, **** that, my hair color is none of anybody's business," and then wind up in jail for not dying their hair appropriately, robots like you would come out and say, "Well gee, what do you expect with that kind of behavior. Garsh, all he had to do was dye his hair..." Take away the law and all of sudden their lives aren't being ruined by wweed use anymore. Gee, guess it wasn't the weed but the law that was their problem.

Harmless drug? Maybe or maybe not but it is illegal. You do it and you take the chance of punishment. The same if you speed, drink and drive, use steroids. It isn't like it's a hidden law you don't know about.

No, but when you suspend all judgement and place the law and its enforcement above all else, like right and wrong, justice and injustice, in my opinion you become less than human. At that point you're a drone. Suppose the law does get reversed, what do we do with all those people in jail and prison for nonviolent offenses? Let them out and say "Sorry guys, sorry for those last few years in hell. Our bad. Here's a couple of bucks, try and start a career"? Or just leave them there? The very fact that these laws could change and that you'd be faced with such a situation should be enough to make any reasonable person wonder whether or not they should be laws at all, and whether or not this "that's the law" attitude espoused by you and others is really appropriate.

[kwyckemynd00]

Simple solution to this problem.

Legalize all drugs and then make huge increases in penalties for all drug related crimes such as drunk driving, child endangerment, domestic abuse, etc.

This way people can do w/e the hell they want in the privacy of their own home AND the government can protect the people even BETTER by removing drug dealers, increasing penalties for crime, etc.

[CDB]

Now, as a police officer you might find that scenario hard to believe, but it did happen, to one of my closest friends actually. He is now serving a very decent sentence and most likely will never be hired as a teacher. Now, you sway me as to why Marijuana should not be legal.

**** him, he broke the law. I've dealt with Jay's type before, he simply will not believe there is such a thing as a nondeviant user. In part it's because he deals with scum all day as a cop, and lots of scum do use drugs. Problem his he confuses correlation with causation, choice with inherent. Your friend must have done somthing else, or must be evil on some level, because the other part of it is nonstop government brainwashing on the subject.

Even should he acknowledge that your friend doesn't belong in jail he will either say he knew what he was getting into, or that it's a necessary sacrifice. It will not occur to him to think beyond the law to the right and wrong of the matter. He won't give a **** about your friend's career going down the toilet. He won't give a **** about the time taken away from his life, living in a hell he does not deserve to be in with people he does not deserve to be around. Your friend broke The Law, and nothing matters more than that.

[CDB]

But how does an officer get suspicion of drug content from looking at a vehicle? Smoke billowing out of the windows or was the car in a known drug area at 2am? This is what baffles me.

US vs Place. A dog sniffing does not constitute a search. Perhaps I should see if I can did up the badge number of the state trooper that stopped my friends and I on the way home from camping years ago. The guy who made us wait by the side of the road for an hour and a half so a dog could come and sniff the car. No ticket given, no drugs in the car. But hey, legally it's not a search. Those dogs are often to be found at checkpoints around here as well. There's also New York vs Belton, which essentially eliminates the need for a warrant for a car search. It has even been ruled I believe that cops can search people's cars if they fit a drug courier profile, said profile incidentally fitting damn near every car in the nation. I remember one version of the drug courier profile that started out the description of the type of car a courier would drive, saying it would either be a large, medium or small model car. Gee, narrows it down a lot, doesn't it?

[CDB]

Simple solution to this problem.

Legalize all drugs and then make huge increases in penalties for all drug related crimes such as drunk driving, child endangerment, domestic abuse, etc.

This way people can do w/e the hell they want in the privacy of their own home AND the government can protect the people even BETTER by removing drug dealers, increasing penalties for crime, etc.

Exactly. Won't ever happen though so long as people are convinced that use itself is evil.

[Jayhawkk]

EDIT

On to the quote fu though...

Once more, tell that to the cops out here. Your opinion is in direct conflict with reality as I've witnessed and personally experienced.

And yours conflicts with mine. See how people can have different opinions? What I have seen with my own two eyes tells me this isn't something to legalize.

Once more, your statements show how divorced from reality you are on this subject. When discussing the WoD, especially on marijuana, government and proprohibition reps routinely site federal statistics of people locked up for weed when they damn well know that the vast majority of people serving time for weed possession and dealing are in state and local prisons and jails...

And can equally be shown by the opposing parties in the form they wish to see. Many stats are focused on certain areas to keep too many generalized stats from showing or clouding the picture. This isn't a phenomenon known only to the gov't or to pot stats. It's used by all.

I truly hope one day the government decides it doesn't like something you or some member of your family does, and then they or you can 'take responsiblity' for your actions and sit and rot in prison next to some guy doing twenty years for possessing one more arbitrary dosage unit of weed or acid or whatever than the government thought he should have.

There are already laws i'm against and those that i'm both against and makes me have to choose either to continue and chance my career and life and my family's life or avoid/change what i'm doing.

No more gang violence surrounding the trade because of the removal of the black market. Safer products with legal recourse for those harmed by tainted products. Age restrictions that can be reasonably enforced to keep kids away from drugs. Massive savings in costs, not to mention lives saved, corruption stiffled and no morekids who made one mistake getting saddled with criminal records essentially screwing them for life.

1. Gang violence of pot wars? Hmm, other drugs and guns etc would also stop because pot was legal? Gang violence would continue as always.

2. Safer products but also ran but your gov't/business drones with prices and potency differences. Not to mention large pot fields to supply these that would also be violated because there's always people wanting something for free so you're still getting pot related crimes. AND you will still have dealers for selling pot for cheaper prices and 'better' potency and laced with products for a better high.

3. Age restrictions..This one actually made me chuckle a bit. Like restrictions with ciggs and alcohol that we're constantly arresting kids for abusing but then again we have unsolved murders in every district so why are we even making these arrests?

4. So introducing what would be a huge business into the economy would lower corruption and cost savings with ads,lawyers,law suits, product testing, etc etc...EDIT

Don't believe me, break a law and resist its enforcement on you at every level. You'll be dead soon enough. Or perhaps so long as there are unsolved murders perhaps cops shouldn't be out handing out parking tickets. But then again that's important revenue...

If you live in the US resisting arrest may get you taken down but for the most part it will not net you a death especially in your example of merging in a right lane. You can only use force needed to control a suspect and that doesn't include deadly force unless it is being used on you or another(dumbed down simple version). And every cop out there should be working unsolved murders...Again, forget any other crime cause there's a murder case out there somewhere and adding 2000 cops per case isn't over kill. EDIT

Because that is the biggest bull**** statement you've made thus far. The ONLY reason their lives will be destroyed by weed use is because the government has stepped in and decided to make it a crime. By that standard you could outlaw red hair and those who had the gaul, the temerity to say, "Hey, **** that, my hair color is none of anybody's business,"...

When the day comes that someone is born with a joint in their lips as a natural body part then this example will make sense. As of right now it's an arguement over hair dye. I'm partial to black myself.

No, but when you suspend all judgement and place the law and its enforcement above all else, like right and wrong, justice and injustice, in my opinion you become less than human. At that point you're a drone...

Anyone who disagrees is a drone, got it. Anyone who follows laws are drones, got it. Laws change and society changes as does everything else in life. Maybe one day pot will be legal and I hope it's in your life time so you can enjoy every moment of it. However right now it's illegal. I also use discretion when making arrests or traffic stops by using the totallity of the evidence and the person i'm dealing with. I've known too many people who have been arrested(including me making the arrests) for having small amounts on them or even being high while being stopped for another reason. While I haven't kept track of them I have met a few of them later on and none of them were screwed for life. Like I said before...A SINGLE BUST WILL NOT RUIN A LIFE!

EDIT

[Jayhawkk]

Since you replied while I was replying...

First, that dog search has to be done in a reasonable time.
Second, He would have to have a reason to use a dog to search.
Third, had he found something he better of had 1 and 2 in order or the drugs found would of been fruits of the poisonous tree and not used anyways.

You're also assuming that I believe that illegal searches and ******* cops making unwarrented stops do not happen. I know there are crooked cops who abuse their powers and I am also aware that there are laws on the books that don't make sense.

I believe pot should not be legalized because of what I have seen on a professional and personal basis. Not because it's inherintly evil or because i'm a drone.

New York vs Belton

Did you even read the case law? You never needed a warrant to search a car when making an arrest to begin with. Ever heard of inventory prior to towing? This was also off of a plain view law and others...