[Qwerty]

Originally Posted by boomr

and be under more stress, paid less than a convenience store manager, risk life and limb more often, have an average lifespan of 10 years after retirement....(in the 50's for most cops), have one of the highest divorce rates and suicide rates, loose your first amendment right to free speech (can't curse at a citizen, tsk tsk, but can be cursed at)

all in the name of helping the citizens, when most would rather you not be around. It is such a double standard, you loose so much and gain few things. Only thing making it worth it is your natural desire to help people (fulfilling that makes it worth it).

A cop doesn't lose their first ammendment rights anymore than any normal working citizen. I can't tell my boss he is a ****ing retard without getting fired. A cop could say whatever he wants off-duty, just like everyone else. So I'm not really following that point.

Otherwise, some good points.

[pu12en12g]

Originally Posted by UNDERTAKER

cops are above the law, and have to be in certain respects.

I disagree 1000 %

[Jayhawkk]

As far as the taillight thing, most cops get the major busts from those minor infractions that people think is trivial. Driving too closly, tail lights etc are great ways into getting big arrests. Your average cop will, if nothing else is found, write warnings or equipment repair orders.

[Cuffs]

Originally Posted by Qwerty

Because the whole point of a cops duty is to uphold the law, protect citizens, and maintain the line of diginity between legal and illegal. If the job involves keeping citizens in check and going after those who break the law, they should be held to a higher standard by principle alone. The same could be said for a judge or prosecuting attorney. You should be under more scrutiny and held to a higher standard in regards to the law if your very job is upholding the law and going after people who break it.

Then where does one's personal life separate from their professional life? I have agreed Cops, and anyone who resides in the U.S., should abide by the law. However, I don't agree about anyone being held at a higher standard, principle or not, or being under more scrutiny, than anyone else. Remember, a cop is a citizen aslo.

[Cuffs]

Originally Posted by Qwerty

A cop doesn't lose their first ammendment rights anymore than any normal working citizen. I can't tell my boss he is a ****ing retard without getting fired. A cop could say whatever he wants off-duty, just like everyone else. So I'm not really following that point.

Otherwise, some good points.

However, a cop can not say whatever he wants off-duty, just like everyone else. Remember, they are held to a higher standard, so is their behavior. I have known officers who have been fired for shooting their mouth off to the wrong people, all off-duty. Look at the cops who were doing porn, or other "unethical" off-duty hobbies who were fired for just that. They call it "conduct unbecoming an officer." Cops are forced to swear to a code of ethics if they want to work. And in that code, it also swears to living an unsullied life on and off duty. What and who defines unsullied? It all depends on the department and part of the country he/she works.

[Cuffs]

Originally Posted by boomr

and be under more stress, paid less than a convenience store manager, risk life and limb more often, have an average lifespan of 10 years after retirement....(in the 50's for most cops), have one of the highest divorce rates and suicide rates, loose your first amendment right to free speech (can't curse at a citizen, tsk tsk, but can be cursed at)

all in the name of helping the citizens, when most would rather you not be around. It is such a double standard, you loose so much and gain few things. Only thing making it worth it is your natural desire to help people (fulfilling that makes it worth it).

This is a very true statement.

[Cuffs]

Originally Posted by Qwerty

A cop doesn't lose their first ammendment rights anymore than any normal working citizen.

Oh yes they do. They can be ordered not to speak of certain investigations (which is a good thing), and ordered not to talk to any member of the press about any matter concerning the department, only refer them to the proper person. This is on or off duty. They can also be ordered not to talk about an internal investigation they may be witness or subject of. Also, if an officer refuses to provide an statement during an internal affairs investigation, they can be ordered to talk. Even if they are providing information that would lead to their termination, or prosecution. If they choose not to, they will be considered insubordinate and fired. Any citizen can choose to "plead the Fifth", but a cop loses his/her Fifth Amendment rights. However, they usually know this going into it.

[Qwerty]

A cop does not lose their first ammendment rights more than anyone else, period. Sure, there are sensitive things that cannot be mentioned or said with regards to their work. But that holds true for lawyers, doctors (patient confidentiality), stock brokers, psychologists, social workers, and countless other professions. The first ammendment DOES NOT give you the right to say whatever you want. You cannot yell fire in a crowded theater. Hell, as a pizza delivery guy putting himself through college, I can't say a lot of things that come to my mind when I deliver to people. I have to be polite and courteous and keep my mouth shut, even if I deliver to a prick. Otherwise, I get fired. That's part of being employed. You can't just say whatever the **** is on your mind at work or to people regarding your work. It can get you fired. If a doctor goes around telling everyone in town that Susy Brown came into the office because she has genital worts, he should have to pay the consequences for that. It's part of the job.

A cop does not lose their first ammendment rights any more than anyone else. It's called having a job. Enough of the pity party.

BTW, I realize cops have a very tough job (one of the toughest out there) and they do it for a lot less respect and gratitude than they should get. But there has been a lot of "poor me" posts, and I just think this notion about the first ammendment is ridiculous.

[buffb2]

Originally Posted by Qwerty

Because the whole point of a cops duty is to uphold the law, protect citizens, and maintain the line of diginity between legal and illegal. If the job involves keeping citizens in check and going after those who break the law, they should be held to a higher standard by principle alone. The same could be said for a judge or prosecuting attorney. You should be under more scrutiny and held to a higher standard in regards to the law if your very job is upholding the law and going after people who break it.

You beat me to it Qwerty. Word for word. As for underpaid and otherthings ( shot at ) nobody made anybody be a cop. I agree underpaid but thats the main reason i choose not to be a cop.

[Cuffs]

Originally Posted by Qwerty

A cop does not lose their first ammendment rights more than anyone else, period. Sure, there are sensitive things that cannot be mentioned or said with regards to their work. But that holds true for lawyers, doctors (patient confidentiality), stock brokers, psychologists, social workers, and countless other professions. The first ammendment DOES NOT give you the right to say whatever you want. You cannot yell fire in a crowded theater. Hell, as a pizza delivery guy putting himself through college, I can't say a lot of things that come to my mind when I deliver to people. I have to be polite and courteous and keep my mouth shut, even if I deliver to a prick. Otherwise, I get fired. That's part of being employed. You can't just say whatever the **** is on your mind at work or to people regarding your work. It can get you fired. If a doctor goes around telling everyone in town that Susy Brown came into the office because she has genital worts, he should have to pay the consequences for that. It's part of the job.

A cop does not lose their first ammendment rights any more than anyone else. It's called having a job. Enough of the pity party.

BTW, I realize cops have a very tough job (one of the toughest out there) and they do it for a lot less respect and gratitude than they should get. But there has been a lot of "poor me" posts, and I just think this notion about the first ammendment is ridiculous.

Cops do lose a portion of thier first amendment rights, and their fifth amendment rights. The reasons you have cited are true. But, an off-duty officer can not just go around and shoot his/her mouth off. If one does, and it gets back to their department, they pay the consequence of possible disciplinary action. If an off-duty cop were to spread rumors and curse people out all while off-duty, they can be punished. If an off-duty officer is arrested for drunk driving, he can lose his job. If an off-duty officer is pulled over and says something to be a smart ass to the officer conducting the traffic stop, he can receive discipline. Or, just receiving a speeding ticket and the issuing department decides to let the off-duty officers department know about it, he can be disciplined. If an off-duty officer gets into a fight, he can be disciplined. If an off-duty officer speaks poorly of his department's work ethics, and the ethics of their department heads, he can be disciplined.

I don't know where you come off about your "pity party" or "poor me" comments. I was taking this as a general conversation, but now am taking offense to that remark. Unless it wasn't directed towards me specifically. Sometimes it's hard to tell what is being said to who online, and I understand this.

The reasons/incidents I have cited, I have seen first hand.
Officers are already held to a higher standard than any of the public. Is this a good thing? For the most part it is. Is it right to hold them where no other citizens are held? That's up to each persons opinion. Cops live their life on a double edged sword. However, they know this going into it.

[AgnosticFront]

Sh*t talk about loss of 1st ammendment rights... I could go to jail for talking about what goes on where I work.

[Cuffs]

Originally Posted by AgnosticFront

Sh*t talk about loss of 1st ammendment rights... I could go to jail for talking about what goes on where I work.

Well, if you took the time to read the entire post, you would have seen that work related matters are not the only things that were talked about. And I doubt you have the type of job where you have to watch what you say in general when you're off the clock, not specifics, but in general. Instead of coming up with your "sh*t talk" comment, why don't you share your wealth of knowledge on the given topic? I would like to hear it. Maybe I'll learn something. All I know is, I am speaking from facts, and I have no reason to make things up.

[kwyckemynd00]

Originally Posted by Cuffs

Well, if you took the time to read the entire post, you would have seen that work related matters are not the only things that were talked about. And I doubt you have the type of job where you have to watch what you say in general when you're off the clock, not specifics, but in general. Instead of coming up with your "sh*t talk" comment, why don't you share your wealth of knowledge on the given topic? I would like to hear it. Maybe I'll learn something. All I know is, I am speaking from facts, and I have no reason to make things up.

I think he intended that "shit talk" to come off as:

"Shit! Talk about first amendment rights...." See what I mean? LOL....

[SJA]

Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00

I think he intended that "shit talk" to come off as:

"Shit! Talk about first amendment rights...." See what I mean? LOL....

That's the way that I read it too...but Cuffs needs some carbs....anyone have a doughnut???

In reference to the wisdom (venom) being spewed by a pizza delivery boy....there are probably a lot of us who lose certain rights with respect to their jobs. You may find that later in life you may have to give some of those liberties up as well if you are in pursuit of one of those careers. This is a fact so accept it. We all know this going in and have to actually sign and swear to it.

As far as the direction that this thread has taken....the original intention was the 'roid rage' comment in the article The one guy in the article said that after his buddy was shot by his own gun which had been wrestled away form him, he started using steroids to get stronger so that wouldn't happen to him. This is probably the incentive for most in LE to use steroids. Personally (this is just my opinion so flame away if you must), I think that since they are in the position where they need to have a physical advantage, they should be allowed to (under a doctor's care) use muscle enhancing drugs without ill repute. Laws are guidelines for the general public. They are bent all the time by the powers that be (we've proven this by showing you that 1st and 5th amendment rights change with certain employment). Allowing an edge for people in LE would be perfectly fine IMO. In fact, I have another story to show you why I think this.

When I was about 18 Y/O, a guy where I worked stole a lot of things that my boss had just got on his wedding day. They knew who did it through prints. When the guy came in, they had a detective there to arrest him. He ran, jumped a fence and headed into the woods. My Boss asked me to track him (I was pretty good in the woods). I found him out there changing his clothes (he had stashed some out there). Then he just sat and was smoking. So I went back to get the COPS. the two fatasses that came with me dropped back quick. The first one gave up in 1/2 mile. The second one was practically weazing and stumbling. He would have gotten his ass kicked if he was in a foot chase which led to a struggle. He ended up turning back too. So the guy got away (that day). I remember thinking "how the **** can these guys protect ME? Isn't there some sort of physical condition that you have to be in?"

With that said, I would think that if the standard COP trained like we do, they would be able to kick much more ass when needed. I already stated how I feel on the rage issue.

[Qwerty]

Originally Posted by SJA

That's the way that I read it too...but Cuffs needs some carbs....anyone have a doughnut???

In reference to the wisdom (venom) being spewed by a pizza delivery boy....there are probably a lot of us who lose certain rights with respect to their jobs. You may find that later in life you may have to give some of those liberties up as well if you are in pursuit of one of those careers. This is a fact so accept it. We all know this going in and have to actually sign and swear to it.

That was the whole point I was making. Point out where any of my logic faultered, but all I was doing was pointing out that many people lose the "right" to say certain things no matter what the profession (as you also pointed out). But I guess you could call that venom...

I really don't see the necessity for cops to be on steroids either. I think the harm COULD outweigh the good. But I think as long as they stay in good shape, they already have a huge advantage over most criminals. Not even soldiers are put on steroids, but most of those guys are in amazing shape. They have outstanding endurance and strength.

[AgnosticFront]

Originally Posted by Cuffs

Well, if you took the time to read the entire post, you would have seen that work related matters are not the only things that were talked about. And I doubt you have the type of job where you have to watch what you say in general when you're off the clock, not specifics, but in general. Instead of coming up with your "sh*t talk" comment, why don't you share your wealth of knowledge on the given topic? I would like to hear it. Maybe I'll learn something. All I know is, I am speaking from facts, and I have no reason to make things up.

LOL... grumpy cops man

[Cuffs]

Originally Posted by SJA

That's the way that I read it too...but Cuffs needs some carbs....anyone have a doughnut???

LOL...I had my make believe doughnut, a bagel, instead.

You make some good points, as does Qwerty. If I sounded like I was trying to get pity for having a portion of my civil rights taken away, I wasn't. I know, as does any person in this position, cop or other, knows going into it. The amedments are interpreted different ways. If they were clear, then we wouldn't have a Supreme Court in this country. Not even they can agree on them 100%.

Oh, and Agnostic...grow up dude. Don't you think it's about time?