UFC 64: Post Fight Discussion
- 10-15-2006, 12:59 AM
- 10-15-2006, 01:26 AM
Anderson Silva kneed the **** out of Rich's ribs and then proceeded to cave in his nose... It was very impressive.
Sherk dominated Ken for the most part.. strong and bloody.
two titles passing hands to the better fighter in both cases.
- 10-15-2006, 01:31 AM
Wow. Just wow. That wasn't the way I saw Franklin vs. Silva going down. I figured if Franklin lost then he'd get caught with a punch or kick and Silva would finish him, but he was just baffled by that Thai Clinch. You could sort of sense that it was over after he took so many knees to the body. I kept hoping that he'd fall to his back just to recoop or go for a take down. Man Rich's nose was halfway to his ear during the interview. He should find Rampage and they should learn how to defend against the Thai clinch together.
Silva looked great and deserves to be champ. I hope the UFC backs him and promotes him as Champ as they have Rich.
Sherk was pretty dominant, but Kenflo is tough and those elbows are ridiculous. What a bloudy battle. (Cecil Peoples scored this 50-48?)
Kongo's wrestling is clearly his weak spot. Too bad, cause I was hoping to see him against AA or Tim soon. (not sure why someone had this 29-28 Kongo)
Why put an 18 year old with 4 fights in against Fischer? I'm not saying that he won't be good one day and he looked great for most of the round, but Dan Lauzon just wasn't ready for the UFC.
Edit: I officially can't pick for ****. Silva for OWGP = ktfo. Frnaklin = ktfo. But I'll keep trying.
10-15-2006, 02:12 AM
10-15-2006, 09:13 AM
Maybe Franklin should have started the fight off by dropping to one knee...
I was really surprised that Franklin wasn't able to power his way out of the clinch, but I guess he was too. It seemed like he just didn't know what to do.
10-15-2006, 11:45 AM
Wow! Silva exposed a huge hole in franklins game. That makes me really proud because my style is muay thai. It's just great to see how devestating those techniques can be.
10-15-2006, 12:30 PM
food for thought: chances are he didnt get a whole lot of stand up training in before this fight, or at least not enough against an opponent whos strength is his stand up... remember his last fight ... he broke his hand during that fight, 6-8 week injury which is a lot of time to take off
10-15-2006, 12:32 PM
Lauzon took the fight on short notice. For an 18 yr old, he did very well against one of the best LW in the UFC. Some more experience and he could be a contender in the near future. Without a doubt, the LW division is going to be UFC's strength, especially if BJ drops back down to 155.Originally Posted by jas123
10-15-2006, 12:39 PM
Prior to yesterday morning I had not seen Silva fight, just the Leben KO highlights. However they replayed the enitre fight in the 'hype show' and I was astounded at how well he could slip, move, counter with near perfect accuracy and still rock Leben with his lead hand. Almost brought a tear to my eye.
Franklin likes to put on a good show and is possibly why he tried to trade with Silva. Agreed he should have tried to take him; it cost him his belt.
Anyone notice that after 25 mins Florian's white shorts were completely red?
10-15-2006, 12:43 PM
No doubt. The impression I get from media footage is that the champs from the Miletich camp have become @$$holes. Kinda glad to see Franklin taken down a notch.Originally Posted by stxnas
10-15-2006, 01:15 PM
Now that Franlin is not champ, I would not be surprised to see Jeremy Horn back in the MW division in the UFC. He didn't want to fight Franklin and Horn did pretty well against Silva in their first fight. I would like to see a rematch between the two because after Swick, there really is noone else who could really challeneg for the title.
10-15-2006, 01:31 PM
I'm confused, but I don't claim to keep up with the different camps either...Isn't Frankin a part of Team Extreme?...has he been training with Miletich?Originally Posted by Nitrox
On another note, I guess this changes up the dynamics for TUF 4, right? These guys have had it in their head that they would face Franklin.Originally Posted by Rodja
10-15-2006, 02:21 PM
One more UFC poster boy taken down by a fighter who cut his teeth in a better organization. Dana needs to start paying better money for his fighters or pride is going to make it real obvious even to lay people where the talent is.
10-15-2006, 02:26 PM
Anderson is such an exciting fighter, but if he faces a really strong grappler he could be in trouble. I hope they keep feeding him strikers. I hate to say it but if Hughes comes up to 185 he would most likely beat Anderson. However maybe Anderson's ground has improved a lot. Watching him from 00-04 his ground was pretty suspect. UFC needs to start putting together better cards. 2 good fights, the rest KOTC material.
10-15-2006, 03:58 PM
He was initially but lately he's been hanging with those guys, in each others' corner, and wearing the same gear so it would seem that he has changed camps. After he lost, the camera cut to a despondent looking Matt Hughes. Maybe someone who knows for sure can chime in.Originally Posted by stxnas
10-15-2006, 04:32 PM
What about Marquardt, Tanner, Lister or hell, bring back Linland? Not saying all of those guys deserve a shot right away, but I think that there are some interesting matches that could challenge Silva on the ground. Strong wrestlers could certainly be a problem for Silva as Alex pointed out.Originally Posted by Rodja
There was something so ridiculous about Franklin drinking the Xyience drink after with his nose bent to the side during the post-fight interview.
10-15-2006, 04:40 PM
Hey, what about a rematch? Silva vs Franklin IIOriginally Posted by jas123
And I agree that the Xyience drink thing at the end was ridiculous. It was like he was trying to fool everybody and make them think he was okay. It's probably in his contract somewhere to that he has to plug that stuff while out there. I can't remember what fight other fight that I saw recently, but the same thing happened at the end of it as well...was it the Sherk/Kenflo fight?
10-15-2006, 05:57 PM
Sherk is the man. He mauled Florian for 25 minutes. I'm surprised Florian lasted that long.
And Silva, wow. Just wow. I thought he would give Franklin some serious problems, but I didn't expect him to dismantle such a hardass so quickly. Extremely, extremely impressive.
10-15-2006, 06:39 PM
I didn't see it the fights. I was pulling for Franklin and was going to get it tonight but the urge to look took over. I was watching Silva train and figured he would win but still I was pulling for Franklin.
10-15-2006, 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by Rogue Drone
You make some good points, and the pre-fight interviews can be bull, but Franklin did say he expected MT and was going to outmaneuver Silva with geometry...
I was shocked to see Franklin manhandled like that, even though I was hoping for a Silva win, but I have to give Silva props for his knee work. Usually, it shouldn't be that hard to smother knees, but Silva was good at raising them up at angles before thrusting in with the hip. I don't know about defending knees by lifting your leg to block, but you can only hold it up there for so long. Once Rich dropped his leg he got tagged. Silva also did a good job moving Rich around so that he couldn't get his bearings, and keeping his head in tight to Rich's so that Rich had limited mobility with his arms. Beautiful Muay Thai.
Silva also has great footwork, the way he darts to the to the sides opening up angles. Honestly, I wish there were more standup exchanges before the clinch. It would have been great to see how they would have matched up.
10-15-2006, 10:31 PM
Gained a lot of respect for KenFlo...then lost respect for him. The entrance was hilarious. He wasn't afraid of Sherk for the most part and put up a great fight...but running away and the fence grabbing were a little pathetic.
Man, look at that blood...
10-15-2006, 10:45 PM
Franklin said in his post fight interview he trained fairly extensively in clinch work but Anderson was a hell of a lot stronger than he thought. And who knew a ex Chute Boxe fighter would be so deadly in the clinch, lol.
As for contenders who could take Anderson on and win, maybe Tanner, Terell, Marquardt if they can take him down. But I wouldn't be surprised if they ate a knee going for the takedown ala Carlos Newton. But like Alexander said we don't know how much Anderson has improved on the ground so it's hard to say.
But I have to disagree with Alex that Hughes would most likely defeat him. Hughes has trouble with good strikers as shown with his fights with BJ and GSP. He gets owned in the stand-up and then trys sloppy shoots. Silva doesn't throw any wide or looping punches so a takedown would be difficult. Silva throws hard straight punches that leaves him in a position to Sprawl or sidestep a takedown. He will pick Matt apart in the stand-up and when Hughes telegraphs a shoot he eats a knee and it's lights out.
And as an aside I love the TUFers who know everything. A lot of them were saying Franklin would KO Silva in the first and Silva's win over Leben was pure luck and he can't bang. Some of them stepped up and put their money where their mouth was so now my UFC64 vacation was paid by them and so will the Pride Real Deal weekend.
10-15-2006, 11:54 PM
That's awesome Ersatz. I hope you're right and that Anderson would knee Hughes into oblivion, but Hughes wouldn't try to stand with him like he did B.J. He would know better then to try that with Anderson so he would be going strictly for the takedown. It could go either way, but if Hughes could take him down Anderson would probably be in trouble. Lindland would be another tough fight for Anderson. I don't really want to see those fights. I'd rather have an exciting guy like Anderson as the champ, then any GnP or lay n prayers. Anyways, I'm glad to see you profitted off of some TUFers.
10-16-2006, 03:01 PM
Gotta' disagree there.Originally Posted by MisterEZE
I think he was terrified of Sherk. I mean, he was so afraid that he ran right into the fence post!
And for the rest of the fight he looked like a deer caught in the headlights. His facial expression while Sherk held him down and pounded him was like "Oh my God I can't move!!"
I don't think he put up a fight at all, outside of a grazing elbow and a couple of good kicks that Sherk shrugged off like "jigga' what?!"
I don't think he had any business being in there. This fight, as predicted, was a total joke. It was designed to ensure that Sherk would be the champion that he deserves to be.
10-17-2006, 12:04 AM
No kidden he hit that fence hard!!Originally Posted by Sir Savage
10-17-2006, 03:51 AM
Hahha bring in matt lindland to teach silva a thing or two about clinch fighting.
10-17-2006, 12:31 PM
That would be another good fight.Originally Posted by Irish480
10-17-2006, 03:39 PM
yeah i was sad to see franklin go down so hard and so quickly.
10-17-2006, 08:05 PM
I'm pretty sure Franklin is with the Miletich camp. I also think Hughes would be punished by Silva if he went up to middleweight. Did you see him getting punished in the first 2 rounds against BJ? His boxing is his weak point.Originally Posted by Nitrox
I loved watching Sherk put the beat down on Florian. I also was surprised that Florian lasted the entire fight. I was getting worried they would stop the fight due to the blood...but hey if Edwin can bleed like a faucet on public tv, they had to give Sherk some bleed time. LOL.
Anderson Silva totally dominated Franklin and it was a rather pathetic fight. Props to Silva for not choking and coming in with a lot of fight in him.
Next...Hughes vs. GSP...Oh yeah, go GSP! What's the odds the Snowman takes the Maineiac?
10-18-2006, 02:11 PM
I don't think Lindland could take Silva.
Call me crazy, but I don't see anyone beating Silva.
10-18-2006, 02:55 PM
No, he's not Fedor at 185, he's beatable. He lost to Ryo Chonan and Daiju Takase, he's definitely beatable. I think Lindland would have a very good chance of beating Silva. I love Silva and his stand-up is unreal, but he has holes in his game. He's not that hard to take down and unless his jiu-jitsu has improved a ton, he's not that dangerous on his back. Henderson would beat Anderson IMO, styles make fights.Originally Posted by Sir Savage
10-18-2006, 04:40 PM
I didn't say he was unbeatable. I just don't see it happening.
Comparing the fighter he is now to what he was a few years ago is a mistake. He's obviously a much better fighter now.
10-18-2006, 04:45 PM
The setup for the heel hook that Chonan tapped Silva with was great. I watch it repeatedly as his timing was excellent.Originally Posted by Alexander
I think Lindland, Henderson, and Filho would all be capable of beating Silva. I know alot of people do not like watching Lindland(I do) but he is an excellent fighter with an abundance of skill.
10-18-2006, 04:57 PM
I skimmed through the Silva/Chonan fight again, and it looked like as it wore on Silva was getting the better of him until that beautiful sub. That was also 2 years ago. No question that he has improved. Looking at Silva in that fight and now, it appears that he has gained a good amount of LBM. He is probably much stonger now, too. I find it hard to believe that Chonan could break Silva's clinch but that Rich could not. I guess it could just be a question of skill, but Franklin said he trained for it, but Silva was physically stronger than expected.
10-18-2006, 07:01 PM
I mean come on, lets not play with words, you pretty much said he was unbeatable or you don't see anyone beating him, same thing. Of course he's improved, but thats grade school insight, everyone improves. You act like I didn't take that into account, but thats a given. What, am I not allowed to bring up his losses, 2 years ago and fighting infrequently it certainly is a worthwhile thought. It's not like he was some rookie out their losing fights, he was a vet at the time he lost to Chonan and Takase. So, like I was saying he has major holes in his game and thats why he has a good chance of losing to plenty of 185ers. I think a lot of people are so hyped on Anderson and have only seen a couple of his fights. I've been watching him since the Meca days, and trust he will be in trouble fighting guys like Lindland, Henderson, Filho, etc. I wish he had Cro-cop take down defense, but he doesn't. The ground is his enemy, but I guess its always possible that he's turned into a Noguiera on the ground. Beowulf, he wasn't doing that great in the Chonan fight, it was close, but Chonan was frustrating the hell out of Anderson.Originally Posted by Sir Savage
10-18-2006, 07:12 PM
Heh, no, those are two different things.
"Unbeatable" means just that; nobody can beat him.
"I don't see anyone beating him" doesn't mean he's unbeatable, it just means I don't see anybody doing it.
I agree he's beatable but I just don't see anyone being able to do it at the moment.
No, you can certainly bring up his losses, but let's take a look at them.
The submission that Chonan pulled off was one of the best submissions of all time and wouldn't work 99% of the time. He did it exactly right at the exact moment needed. That specific submission doesn't really tell us anything about Silva's ground game.
The Takase triangle submission is something that we haven't seen happen before or since. It's not like he has a history of being triangled or anything, like Trigg has a history of rear-naked chokes.
And for a lot of the rest of his fights, he shows competence on the ground.
If the ground is his weak point, then that just furthers my stance- I don't see anyone beating him right now.
10-18-2006, 07:23 PM
Like I said, I skimmed the Silva/Chonan fight. I thought it looked like Silva was figuring Chonan out, but I need to revisit it when I have some time. I was a bit shocked by Silva on the ground. He began what appeared to be a horrendous triangle attempt that was easily squashed.
10-18-2006, 09:19 PM
IMO, Chonan was on his way to a decision victory before the sub unless things changed significantly in the last few minutes of that fight. Silva looked off in that fight to me, though. Chonan was doing way better than he should have on his feet as I recall.
I think Silva's ground game is really a big question mark and we won't know until someone tests him. Standing, however, he should continue to provide HLs when his opponents get "Franklined".
But I think Rich will win a rematch.
10-18-2006, 10:20 PM
That really makes very little sense. Him having a weak point furthers your stance on no one being able to beat him right now? What if they bring Lindland back? Anyways, you don't think anyone can beat him right now, all I'm saying is that its pretty clear that a lot of tough ground guys will give him trouble. Anderson is a great fighter, but he is not great on the ground and that will produce losses.Originally Posted by Sir Savage
10-19-2006, 03:22 PM
Which part doesn't make sense to you? The "ground game/weak point" stuff?
What I'm saying there is that he's only lost TWO fights by submission- one of which was by one of the best submissions of all time. That one doesn't really tell us anything about Silva's ground game so it's neither here nor there.
The other loss was a run-of-the-mill triangle and legit, but something we haven't seen for him before or since.
So only two losses by submission, one of which was by a tremendous submission that was so quick it would have caught anyone.
In his other fights, he shows that he's fairly competent on the ground.
So upon closer inspection, we see that his ground game really isn't THAT weak. And if that's his "weak point", then yes, that furthers my stance that I don't see anyone beating him right now.
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