Training and BJJ
- 03-19-2006, 02:48 PM
Training and BJJ
So I have just started BJJ and I love it
However I find that my weight and strength seem to put me at a disatvantage compared to the guys.
My lifting and diet routine right now are specifically tailored for sparring, and I still want to keep that as a number 1 priority, however I was wondering if there was an advantage to specifically training certain areas for BJJ?
Any advice would be great
- 03-19-2006, 03:12 PM
- 03-22-2006, 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by karategirl
03-22-2006, 08:39 AM
I find that I am struggling with the lack of strength compared to the guys, I am probably the lightest person in the class by a good 70lbs.
I think part of this is technique though, when I get the technique 100% right, it seems really easy.
Just curious thats all, I have a pretty strict training schedule anyway, so I am at an advantage compared to some.
03-22-2006, 08:54 AM
There is no 'one area' that will make anyone good.
Work on positioning skills like takedowns, reversals and escapes since most people tend to work too much on subs exclusively. Being on the bottom is bad.
03-22-2006, 09:12 AM
Thanks, I know that I will never have the strength advantage, but I am way more felxible than the guys so I will try and use that against them.Originally Posted by MarcusG
Oh and my 12 inch neck is not helping at all, it seems like I am really easy to choke!
03-22-2006, 09:30 AM
All a beginner has starting out in BJJ is strength and its common at this stage to try to muscle in a technique and powering out an escape. And since you're not even close to having parity in strength, I won't be surprised if you have major problems in training.
If you think you're just stagnating by being just a throw pillow for bigger guys, I suggest a different class or a different school.
03-22-2006, 09:36 AM
Ahh, but the one thing that I do have is my innate stubbornessOriginally Posted by MarcusG
I love BJJ, and the guys that I work with are incredibly good with me.
Thats probably because they know I can whoop their butts in sparring
I think a grappling style will compliment my karate and is perhaps more useful as a self defence if (God forbid) I was ever attacked.
03-22-2006, 10:15 AM
Perfecting your technique will help immensely - your full body against a single joint takes some of the strenth disparity out of the equation. It is good to work on core strengthening execises and I've found that grip strength is an important factor (and often overlooked).Originally Posted by karategirl
03-22-2006, 06:51 PM
I would disagree with Marcus stating that you should avoid the bottom. You will be unable to avoid the bottom for some time because you are just beginning your training and other students are bigger and stronger.
You should work very hard on escaping-especially focus on hip movement, and guard work. You will be on the bottom and you may as well improve your skills from these positions.
03-22-2006, 07:03 PM
I have a question; Do you like it? I was concidering it. I was supposed to start jiu-jitsu last night but my ride was sick, So I start next Tuesday. I heard BJJ is more takedowns and grappling and will help me more for wrestling. Is this true?
03-22-2006, 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by meh
I didn't say to avoid training from the bottom.
My point is that being on the back is an inferior position and takedowns, reversals and escapes to get out from the bottom are important which is also what you are saying.
03-22-2006, 08:08 PM
karategirl bjj is all about technique not strenght. Even tho cats are way havier than you, if you have the better technique you will win. That's how it goes. I take bjj myself and make big cats tap all the time. Since you just started, try to go for the chokes, which in my opinion for a beginner is the easiest submission to perform.
Mason, bjj is mostly submissions, but it does have some very effective takedowns
03-22-2006, 09:50 PM
You just started. Currently I am a purple belt. I only understand the game a little bit.Originally Posted by karategirl
03-23-2006, 07:39 AM
I understand what you are saying. Your point about the bottom being bad could be confusing to new students because they willl be on the bottom alot in practice. This may or may not occur if in a fight or in a competition. The guard is exceptionally important if you are on your back.
Many traditional martial artists used to say that they didn't need any grappling because they could not be taken down-even though they never trained takedowns and defense against takedowns. In the same line of thinking, I didn't want her to get the impression that she shouldn't train on her back because it is an inferior position.
03-23-2006, 08:20 AM
Thanks for all of your advice guys.
Right now I am going to concentrate on technique and once I have become more confident I will probably post a ton more questions
Bottom or top, I suck right now
03-23-2006, 08:38 AM
I feel that relaxation and breathing to be key to maintaining proper form/technique. Your backgroung being Karate, which is a hard style art, would not really focus on this aspect of training. You may consider taking some Tai Chi classes if you have the spare time as it will teach you how to relax and meditate. I train in a softer style martial art (Tum Pai Kajukenbo) where tendon strength and internal energy take precedence over muscle strength and external energy. Let me tell you, when I am not relaxed and focused on keeping my air low the big guys just toss me around like a set of 12lb DB's. It is absolutely amazing how strong someone will think you are while using inner chi and tendons, even my scrawney little 170lbs. FWIW
03-23-2006, 10:11 AM
LOL that is so true.Originally Posted by bpmartyr
In my last class, my instructor was watching me performing a couple of techniques and when i had finished, he laughed at me as I had held my breath the whole time
Now that I am aware of it, I concentrate on my breathing much more and find it a lot easier.
03-23-2006, 11:53 AM
Pulling strength is huge and prolly more important than pressing strength. Your gonna get good at the guard position being smaller than everyone. Knock them off balance with your legs or wait for them to get off balance and you can sweep with ease.
It's gonna take time so don't get discouraged!
03-23-2006, 02:46 PM
I'm gonna do brazillian jiu-jitsu! Starting next Tuesday, the place I was gonna go teaches it.
03-23-2006, 02:50 PM
Sweet, I love it, although I get pretty bruised up, the floor at my school is not padded enough. Looks good the next day in work though, nobody comes near me as they think I am psycho.Originally Posted by Mason
I always come in with some type of injury from all the stuff that I do.
Love it though, let me know how you get on.
03-23-2006, 03:25 PM
03-25-2006, 09:32 AM
i am also thinking about starting, but want to get in better shape before i start... my cardio is pretty pathetic at the moment, damn smoking...
Anyhow, whenever i decide to get started, i will be training at Renzo Gracie's academy in NYC. Where does everyone else train?
03-25-2006, 10:19 PM
Practice shrimp crawling and other basic techniques you use on you're back. If you have good mobility on your back your guard will develop much quicker. You can practice these techniques while your at home watching TV. The more your muscles get used to basic BJJ movements on your back the more likely you will be able to get back to guard when someone mounts you. Practice the basics and your BJJ game will develop. Bye the way, do some jump roping to build your cardio. If you just do the above things and stay consistant at rolling you'll be at least "hanging" in no time.
03-28-2006, 08:25 PM
For fast strength gain, try isometrics. You can get incredibly strong without gaining much weight. With optimal stimulation, you can achieve maxiumum strength gain of about 5% a week.Originally Posted by karategirl
Yes it will complement your striking art.Originally Posted by karategirl
BJJ is an effective sport fighting art. But don't count on it to save you if you are attacked outside of the ring. Real world self defence is a function of many factors, with direct hand to hand fighting being the lowest priority. Don't be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Don't hang around the wrong crowd. Don't go down the dark alley alone. Keep your place locked, secured and lighted. Becareful with the people you go out with. etc etc etc.. Things that your parents, elders and teachers have always warned you about. Paying attention to those factors, goes a long way to ensure personal safety.
If you make yourself a target, then when you get assaulted, it will be when you are least expecting it and you would NOT be prepared. That is the way the criminal predators work. They choose the time and place that is most favourable to them and least favourable to you. They will be ready and you will not. Neither karate nor BJJ will help alot, when you are overcome by a surprise attack, and totally overwhelmed before you can do much. BJJ or karate is not going to do a lot if some pervert jumps you and clubbed you on the head.
03-28-2006, 09:52 PM
I don't think Isometrics are going to help you that much. The reality is you'll always be at a strength disadvantage even if the guy is your weight. I've had to roll with numerous women due to my lower weight and their strength just couldn't compare. Even one who was 6ft and 150 with a fair bit of muscle wasn't as strong as guys who were 143lbs.
But it has been my experience that women are more technically sound because of this strength disparity. They can't use brute strength so they have to rely more on proper form. Also women seem to have better endurance especially in the lower body.
I think part of the problem is the people you're rolling with. They have a distinct weight ansd strength advantage but they whould go easy on you as a result. But I'm sure you're rolling with other white belts so ego invariably gets in the way. It's not uncommon for them to injure one another as they prove their worth and showcase their alledged talents. My school makes whites roll with higher belts so they won't get out of hand else they know thier ass will be handed to them. It would always piss me off seeing a white belt trying a full force can opener/neck crank on a their partner especially women. Because of these incidences we have whites roll with higher belts ot keep them in line. Perhaps your school will consider this. You could address your concerns to the instructor and chances are if you roll with a higher level bjj practioner they'll be more accomodating and beneficial to your training.
03-28-2006, 10:08 PM
Totally overwhelmed meaning hit by a bat or shot by a gun because if some fool jumps my back and does not have any BJJ training. I will get his back real quick.Originally Posted by BioHazzard
03-28-2006, 10:10 PM
I have noticed that when I get a BJJ from my wife training is about the same afterwords. Maybe I'm a bit more relaxed.
03-28-2006, 10:28 PM
Thanks for the advice guys, I am not ever hoping to have to use any self defence skills but it is nice to just know that if I was in the wrong place at the wrong time then I would have at least a couple of back up plans.
I am rolling with other white belts right now, and I have not managed to roll with any of the more experienced ones yet, but I hope to soon.
I am really enjoying the classes and learning a lot, I have the shrimp down really well, I think thats due to both my flexibility and strength, but I still struggle with the sweeps. I know I have a lot to learn, and the classes are small enough that in an hour and a half class I actually get a lot done.
I will update as a go along.
03-28-2006, 11:11 PM
So, that's your argument against Isometrics?Originally Posted by ersatz
Isometrics is a key to getting insanely strong. It is a proven method. It is not the only key. But it is an extremely effective one. There is more to it than just isometrics. But let's just leave it at that.
03-28-2006, 11:13 PM
lol. Real life is ain' THAT simple.. lol But, whatever. Just be safe and watch your back. lolOriginally Posted by USPLabs
03-29-2006, 07:54 AM
How can you train for 'real life' attacks?
Sparring is the best way to train for self defense because you are 'fighting' with an opponent that has intentions of their own. This would be true in striking or grappling.
Using a gun and mace type spray would be very good for self defense, but you may not be able to use these if your opponent is controlling you.
03-29-2006, 08:02 AM
I think that BJJ is ideally suited for a woman's self defense for many reasons.
It is unlikely that a woman can outrun a man over a short distance. It is unlikely that a woman will be able to knock out a larger, stronger, more agressive male attacker.
One of the most important reasons why BJJ is ideal for a woman is because they will learn to fight off their backs and use their guard. This, of course, is where a man would be if he were attempting to rape the woman.
03-29-2006, 05:50 PM
Sparring in most schools, creates a false sense of reality that tend to fail the students. Most MA schools teach self defence techniques that are deadly, but unfortunately, it is deadly to the one using them.Originally Posted by meh
Sparring is good for sport fighting where you are not out to harm each other. There is no ambush. No weapon. No dirty trick. No asphalt pavement to scrap your skin or bang your head on. No other gangbangers to gang up on you. No one pulls a gun, or a knife when you get him pinned on the ground. You don't have to worry about having your eyes jabbed out, your windpipe crashed. You don't worry about having your testicles crashed, your knees broken, or your ear drum punctured. If you miss in your punch, you don't have to worry about your partner stepping in to scratch your eyes out. If you miss in your roundhouse, you don't worry about your partner countering with breaking the knee of your supporting leg. When you close in for a takedown, you don't worry about losing your eyes. And you know for sure that, the most you get to lose is just your ego.
I have heard about stories of grappler letting go the bag guy after the badguy tapped him, only to allow the bag guy to procede to plummet him. I have heard stories of MA expert giving the knife back to the attacker after disarming it from the attacker. Because that is the way he used to practice at his school. I have heard of MA expert got killed because after he stalled the attack, he resorted to the high virtue his master had drilled him. He told the gangbanger that he did not wish to harm the gangbanger. He turned and walked away. The gangbanger was humiliated in front of his homies. Well, he stabbed the guy in the kidney and he bled out before the ambulance arrived. I have heard of a grappler getting stabbed after he pinned a bad guy and the bad guy pulled a pocket knife and knived him. Took him a year to recover. But he lived. I have heard of RMA instructors, experts in weapon disarm, got hacked and shot to death in the back of a desserted stripmall. And the case is still unsolved.
Sparring is good exercise. But not sufficient for real life situation. It is sufficient for not too serious nor vicious confrontation.
How do you train for real life attacks? Hell, that is not something that can be answered in a post. lol
There are principles for defence against, or counter, real life attack. After learning the principles, you learn the particular set of techniques, and then you practice applying the principles and techniques in scenario based drills. There is nothing secretive nor mysterious about the particular techniques. They are just lethal techniques that aim to maim the vulnerable parts of the human anatomy. We are a civilized society. When I first shown the techniques, I felt repulsed by them. lol. Unless you are a natural born psycho, you are not comfortable with spearing eyes out, crashing windpipe, clap puncturing eardrums, breaking elbows, knees, ankles or backbones. But unfortunately, all of these techniques are the only ones that work on just about any kind of bad guys. HAving said that, there are less than lethal techniques you can apply in non life threatening situation.
Obviously there are hardly any commercial school that focus in this area. That is because you certainly not going to teach kids deadly techniques. So that limits the number of students and thus your revenues. If you want to make a living teaching MA, you have to either teach kids or teach sport fighting. Second, even when it comes to teaching adults, there is this liability issue. Because of the liability issue, 99.99% of the MA schools teach watered down MA. They might as well call it Macho Physical Education or Macho Gymnastic, istead of Martial Arts. lol
What does that leave you? Well, serious combatives are primarily a domain of real life operators. The skills that allow you to jab out eyes, crash windpipe, break knee/ankle, and break backbone, are of very limited commercial appeal in our society. But, if you want to be able to fight hand to hand and win/survive/prevail, then combatives training is the venue. Conventional MA will most likely get you hurt or killed.
P.S. I am sure many would feel the need to stand up and defend his/her MA and tell me that I am just full of the stuffs that enhance plant growth. That's ok. lol To them, I wish them long life and happiness.
03-29-2006, 06:11 PM
Instead of spending endless hours perfecting escape techniques and submission techniques, the time is better spent on learning a few lethal techniques, and how to avoid getting into situation where you have to fight off your back. I realize that some will throw out the age old argument that you can't prevent from being taken down and have to fight off your back. Well, if you focus your training on fighting off your back, that is where you are bound to end up. Learn counter takedown techniques. Add in lethal techniques to multiply the effectiveness of your counter takedown by orders of magnitude. Even when you are fighting off your back, there is no reason you can't use lethal techniques.Originally Posted by meh
I also know that many will argue that when you get in a dominant position, then it is all over. That is a little presumptuous. It is about as silly as saying that as soon as I jab your eyes out, it is all over. Sure, but a lot has to happen first before you get to your dominant position and a lot has to happen first, before I get to jab your eyes out. You can get your eyes jabbed while trying to get into a dominant position over me and I can get dominated before I get to jab your eyes out. It is all about understand the limitation of every technique and the work-around.
03-29-2006, 10:48 PM
I like the way you talk (said all Slingblade like)Originally Posted by BioHazzard
Eyestrikes are my friends. As is the throat and groin.
03-29-2006, 10:58 PM
I wasn't actually against doing isometric exercises at all. Of course they will help but there will always be a vast disparity in strength.Originally Posted by BioHazzard
Sweeps are hard to pull off and do reaquire a good maount of strength but the real key to their effectiveness is setting your opponent up for them properly.
03-30-2006, 08:07 AM
“Sparring in most schools, creates a false sense of reality that tend to
fail the students. Most MA schools teach self defence techniques that are
deadly, but unfortunately, it is deadly to the one using them.”
Sparring in a certain range is the best way to improve your skills in that range.
“Sparring is good for sport fighting where you are not out to harm each
other. … No weapon.”
The best defense against a weapon is avoidance or a better and/or more proficient use of a weapon.
03-30-2006, 08:09 AM
“No other gangbangers to gang up
on you. No one pulls a gun, or a knife when you get him pinned on the
ground. You don't have to worry about having your eyes jabbed out, your
windpipe crashed. You don't worry about having your testicles crashed,
your knees broken, or your ear drum punctured. If you miss in your punch,
you don't have to worry about your partner stepping in to scratch your
eyes out. If you miss in your roundhouse, you don't worry about your
partner countering with breaking the knee of your supporting leg. When you
close in for a takedown, you don't worry about losing your eyes. And you
know for sure that, the most you get to lose is just your ego.”
It is interesting that many self defense types tend to use similar arguments to support their training methods. These, as in your case, tend to revolve around weapons, multiple surprise attackers, and ‘dirty’ strikes (eye gouges, groin strikes, etc).
The problem is that you have to use theory that is not supported by evidence. It is easy to talk about self defense when you don’t even train the techniques that you talk about. In other words, how many eyes have you poked out or ear drums have you punctured? If you have ever trained (or worse fought) a bjj black belt or an all American/national level wrestler, then you would realize that you will not be able to stop a takedown or gouge the eyes. These opponents leave you no space and use a lot of pressure.
The problem revolves around the fact that you can’t stop a takedown if you haven’t spent a lot of time training wrestling with very good wrestlers (and maybe some of the other realistic throwing arts-sambo, judo). You can’t defend yourself on the ground if you haven’t spent a lot of time training there and the most proven art on the ground is BJJ. Finally, you can’t stay in striking range unless you have excellent boxing and some kicking – kicking defense skills. You get these skills by training with and against higher level practitioners in these arts and by sparring in these ranges. Ultimately, removing the arbitrary division of striking, clinch, and ground to train in all ranges.
03-30-2006, 08:11 AM
“Instead of spending endless hours perfecting escape techniques and
submission techniques, the time is better spent on learning a few lethal
techniques, and how to avoid getting into situation where you have to
fight off your back. I realize that some will throw out the age old
argument that you can't prevent from being taken down and have to fight
off your back. Well, if you focus your training on fighting off your back,
that is where you are bound to end up.”
If you don’t train it, then you can’t defend against it. You will not even know what is about happen.
“Learn counter takedown techniques.”
What is the source of your counter takedown techniques? Have you tried them against a high level takedown artist?
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