Training and BJJ - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 2

Training and BJJ

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  1. meh
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    “Add in lethal techniques to multiply the effectiveness of your counter
    takedown by orders of magnitude. Even when you are fighting off your back,
    there is no reason you can't use lethal techniques.”

    You can use what ever technique you want, but you need a base from which to operate. On the ground, the base should be BJJ. I have been involved in martial arts for 20 years, including TKD, karate, JKD, kickboxing, wrestling, judo, and more than 13 years in BJJ having earned a black belt. You have no idea of how helpless you would be on the ground with a BJJ black belt and the same is true of takedowns against a very good wrestler, or striking with a very good kickboxer.

    I really don’t think that you will find anything more lethal than a choke. You have 3-5 seconds to get out prior to passing out. I know that you are thinking that you will just grab the groin or attempt an eye gouge to get out. You won’t have the time or the opportunity to do so.

    You have to train in these areas to be proficient. You can not just train different ‘scenarios.’ How many ‘scenarios’ could happen in real life? The numbers of possibilities is unlimited. I think that you should get good in each range and then if you want to add in lethal techniques, then feel free.

    The reality is that if a good boxer decided to eye jab, then he would be able to do so more effectively because of the skills he developed in timing, power, etc. The same would be true of any other range of combat. The person who sepnt more time training there will have many more options and a greater advantage.

  2. warriorway's Avatar
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    Good point Meh. No sense in arguing with you about technique. At first I thought you were against jujitsu but then it turns out you are a black belt.
  3. BioHazzard's Avatar
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    ...The best defense against a weapon is avoidance or a better and/or more proficient use of a weapon. ...
    Avoidance is always the best option. Self defence is mostly a mental skill. When you really have to resort to hand to hand, then that means all other things have already been messed up.

    You are assuming that when you get assaulted, your attacker waves the weapon at you and then come at you in predicted trajectory.

    That is where the problem arises. Real world weapon assault does not occur that way. Most of the time, the victims stated that they didn't see any knife until after they got hurt. And even then, some didn't even notice they were injured. All due to adrenaline rush.

    In combatives, we trend to recognize subtle signature move of weapon draw and intercept/interrupt that. We also have a different intercept techniques different from the stuffs commonly taught at most schools. Those have been proven to be deadly, to the one using them.
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  4. BioHazzard's Avatar
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    It is interesting that many self defense types tend to use similar arguments to support their training methods. These, as in your case, tend to revolve around weapons, multiple surprise attackers, and Ďdirtyí strikes (eye gouges, groin strikes, etc).

    The problem is that you have to use theory that is not supported by evidence. It is easy to talk about self defense when you donít even train the techniques that you talk about. In other words, how many eyes have you poked out or ear drums have you punctured? If you have ever trained (or worse fought) a bjj black belt or an all American/national level wrestler, then you would realize that you will not be able to stop a takedown or gouge the eyes. These opponents leave you no space and use a lot of pressure.
    Unfortunately, you are making a lot more assumptions here.

    A. We do train with full speed and full force attack. We can do that, because we also use full gear for eyes, ear and most body parts protection.

    B. The argument that how many eyes have you poked out is simply silly. The counter argument can be make as to how many arm/leg joints have you broken? None? If anything, you train to let go when get tapped. When the bag guy taps you, you will instinctively let go too. That will be the reflex you are working hard to ingrain into your mind and body daily. lol Nice huh? lol

    C. Theory? Who is talking about theory? We are talking about battle tested, proven hand to hand, lethal techniques used in many battle fields since WWII. We are not talking about finesse theory. We are talking about sheer, brutal outburst of extreme violence.

    D. "...If you have ever trained (or worse fought) a bjj black belt or an all American/national level wrestler, then you would realize that you will not be able to stop a takedown or gouge the eyes. These opponents leave you no space and use a lot of pressure...."

    Sure, that would be correct, just as long as it is a sport sparring and they don't have to worry about getting maimed. As long as I am not allowed or inclined to blind them or maim them, then they can eat a few shots like everybody else can, and close in to take me down. That is sport fighting. That is not self defence as criminal assault in some unholy places at some ungodly hours of the night.

    BTW, forget about the sissy like eye-gauging or eye-scratching that most people resort to instinctively. We are talking about hardcore, lighting spear hand and tiger claw (for the lack of a better term) face slap plus gauging. There is a whole set of technique for that purpose.

    The grapplers like to say they can withstand the initial striking they have to take when they move in to take someone down. That is true because most people, including most martial artists, simply do not know and cannot deliver devastating strikes. I am sure that odd to piss off a lot of martial artists. But hey, if you disagree then go try it on a grappler. lol

    The problem revolves around the fact that you canít stop a takedown if you havenít spent a lot of time training wrestling with very good wrestlers (and maybe some of the other realistic throwing arts-sambo, judo). You canít defend yourself on the ground if you havenít spent a lot of time training there and the most proven art on the ground is BJJ.
    What makes you think we don't train counter takedown? lol What makes you think we don't practice escape techniques? We just do it a bit differently.

    The Russian special forces have researched counter grappling thoroughly. Their conclusion is, most of the takedown and grappling techniques can be easily neutralized when lethal techniques are used. Grappling is only effective when lethal techniques are disallowed. But I think your idea of what constitute lethal techniques and when to apply them, would be different from ours. So, we could be arguing orange vs apples there.


    Finally, you canít stay in striking range unless you have excellent boxing and some kicking Ė kicking defense skills. You get these skills by training with and against higher level practitioners in these arts and by sparring in these ranges. Ultimately, removing the arbitrary division of striking, clinch, and ground to train in all ranges.
    You are talking about sport sparring. Not that there is anything wrong with that. It is just a different set of games.
  5. BioHazzard's Avatar
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    You can use what ever technique you want, but you need a base from which to operate. On the ground, the base should be BJJ. I have been involved in martial arts for 20 years, including TKD, karate, JKD, kickboxing, wrestling, judo, and more than 13 years in BJJ having earned a black belt. You have no idea of how helpless you would be on the ground with a BJJ black belt and the same is true of takedowns against a very good wrestler, or striking with a very good kickboxer.
    With all due respect, while you may have 20 years of experience, you are simply tranplanting your ineffective striking against effective grappling. That point has already been proven by the Gracies, in sport fighting. You are not breaking new ground there.

    Again, it is sport sparring and sport matches. It is not real world assault.
    I really donít think that you will find anything more lethal than a choke. You have 3-5 seconds to get out prior to passing out. I know that you are thinking that you will just grab the groin or attempt an eye gouge to get out. You wonít have the time or the opportunity to do so.
    May be you missed my points totally. You are again referring to sport sparring and matches. From your description of the application, it is clear to me that you have zero training in executing effective eye strikes and other lethal techniques. That is not unexpected, as you have trained in sport sparring and matches. You PRESUME that such strikes are used to 'get out'. You PRESUME that you can get into position to place choke. I have already stated that a lot of things have to happen before you get to that position. Of course when you get to that position then it is all over. No one denies that. A choke is nice, IF you can do it. Not only that you have to get close enough for me to blind you before you even notice my hands, while you are busy with trying to get a choke on me, my homies would stick a piece in your kidney. Life is a *****... I know. lol

    You have to train in these areas to be proficient. You can not just train different Ďscenarios.í How many Ďscenariosí could happen in real life? The numbers of possibilities is unlimited. I think that you should get good in each range and then if you want to add in lethal techniques, then feel free.
    You don't understand the part about practicing to ''apply principles to scenario". It isn't about replicating canned response, which by the way, is examplified by the usual Mcdojo weapon disarm training. "Stab me this way and I will do this and this and then this." lol I am talking about learning to apply the principles in different scenario. After that, you can improvise and apply the principles and techniques to any scenarios that arise.

    With your 20 years experience, this ought to be clear to you already.
    The reality is that if a good boxer decided to eye jab, then he would be able to do so more effectively because of the skills he developed in timing, power, etc. The same would be true of any other range of combat. The person who sepnt more time training there will have many more options and a greater advantage.
    Boxing is an effective striking art. But as it is practiced, is not a complete art. Therefore, he will also have a lot of ineffective and deadly-to-himself techniques he has laboriously ingrained into his reflexes over the year. That will be what gets him killed.

    Sport rules are deadly to the users. lol Wow... the irony!! lol

    Spending more time training is better than spending less. But you also have to take into consideration of what it is that you are training.
  

  
 

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