Training and BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs
    Totally overwhelmed meaning hit by a bat or shot by a gun because if some fool jumps my back and does not have any BJJ training. I will get his back real quick.
    lol. Real life is ain' THAT simple.. lol But, whatever. Just be safe and watch your back. lol

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    How can you train for 'real life' attacks?

    Sparring is the best way to train for self defense because you are 'fighting' with an opponent that has intentions of their own. This would be true in striking or grappling.

    Using a gun and mace type spray would be very good for self defense, but you may not be able to use these if your opponent is controlling you.
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    I think that BJJ is ideally suited for a woman's self defense for many reasons.

    It is unlikely that a woman can outrun a man over a short distance. It is unlikely that a woman will be able to knock out a larger, stronger, more agressive male attacker.

    One of the most important reasons why BJJ is ideal for a woman is because they will learn to fight off their backs and use their guard. This, of course, is where a man would be if he were attempting to rape the woman.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meh
    How can you train for 'real life' attacks?

    Sparring is the best way to train for self defense because you are 'fighting' with an opponent that has intentions of their own. This would be true in striking or grappling.

    Using a gun and mace type spray would be very good for self defense, but you may not be able to use these if your opponent is controlling you.
    Sparring in most schools, creates a false sense of reality that tend to fail the students. Most MA schools teach self defence techniques that are deadly, but unfortunately, it is deadly to the one using them.

    Sparring is good for sport fighting where you are not out to harm each other. There is no ambush. No weapon. No dirty trick. No asphalt pavement to scrap your skin or bang your head on. No other gangbangers to gang up on you. No one pulls a gun, or a knife when you get him pinned on the ground. You don't have to worry about having your eyes jabbed out, your windpipe crashed. You don't worry about having your testicles crashed, your knees broken, or your ear drum punctured. If you miss in your punch, you don't have to worry about your partner stepping in to scratch your eyes out. If you miss in your roundhouse, you don't worry about your partner countering with breaking the knee of your supporting leg. When you close in for a takedown, you don't worry about losing your eyes. And you know for sure that, the most you get to lose is just your ego.

    I have heard about stories of grappler letting go the bag guy after the badguy tapped him, only to allow the bag guy to procede to plummet him. I have heard stories of MA expert giving the knife back to the attacker after disarming it from the attacker. Because that is the way he used to practice at his school. I have heard of MA expert got killed because after he stalled the attack, he resorted to the high virtue his master had drilled him. He told the gangbanger that he did not wish to harm the gangbanger. He turned and walked away. The gangbanger was humiliated in front of his homies. Well, he stabbed the guy in the kidney and he bled out before the ambulance arrived. I have heard of a grappler getting stabbed after he pinned a bad guy and the bad guy pulled a pocket knife and knived him. Took him a year to recover. But he lived. I have heard of RMA instructors, experts in weapon disarm, got hacked and shot to death in the back of a desserted stripmall. And the case is still unsolved.

    Sparring is good exercise. But not sufficient for real life situation. It is sufficient for not too serious nor vicious confrontation.

    How do you train for real life attacks? Hell, that is not something that can be answered in a post. lol

    There are principles for defence against, or counter, real life attack. After learning the principles, you learn the particular set of techniques, and then you practice applying the principles and techniques in scenario based drills. There is nothing secretive nor mysterious about the particular techniques. They are just lethal techniques that aim to maim the vulnerable parts of the human anatomy. We are a civilized society. When I first shown the techniques, I felt repulsed by them. lol. Unless you are a natural born psycho, you are not comfortable with spearing eyes out, crashing windpipe, clap puncturing eardrums, breaking elbows, knees, ankles or backbones. But unfortunately, all of these techniques are the only ones that work on just about any kind of bad guys. HAving said that, there are less than lethal techniques you can apply in non life threatening situation.

    Obviously there are hardly any commercial school that focus in this area. That is because you certainly not going to teach kids deadly techniques. So that limits the number of students and thus your revenues. If you want to make a living teaching MA, you have to either teach kids or teach sport fighting. Second, even when it comes to teaching adults, there is this liability issue. Because of the liability issue, 99.99% of the MA schools teach watered down MA. They might as well call it Macho Physical Education or Macho Gymnastic, istead of Martial Arts. lol

    What does that leave you? Well, serious combatives are primarily a domain of real life operators. The skills that allow you to jab out eyes, crash windpipe, break knee/ankle, and break backbone, are of very limited commercial appeal in our society. But, if you want to be able to fight hand to hand and win/survive/prevail, then combatives training is the venue. Conventional MA will most likely get you hurt or killed.

    P.S. I am sure many would feel the need to stand up and defend his/her MA and tell me that I am just full of the stuffs that enhance plant growth. That's ok. lol To them, I wish them long life and happiness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meh
    I think that BJJ is ideally suited for a woman's self defense for many reasons.

    It is unlikely that a woman can outrun a man over a short distance. It is unlikely that a woman will be able to knock out a larger, stronger, more agressive male attacker.

    One of the most important reasons why BJJ is ideal for a woman is because they will learn to fight off their backs and use their guard. This, of course, is where a man would be if he were attempting to rape the woman.
    Instead of spending endless hours perfecting escape techniques and submission techniques, the time is better spent on learning a few lethal techniques, and how to avoid getting into situation where you have to fight off your back. I realize that some will throw out the age old argument that you can't prevent from being taken down and have to fight off your back. Well, if you focus your training on fighting off your back, that is where you are bound to end up. Learn counter takedown techniques. Add in lethal techniques to multiply the effectiveness of your counter takedown by orders of magnitude. Even when you are fighting off your back, there is no reason you can't use lethal techniques.

    I also know that many will argue that when you get in a dominant position, then it is all over. That is a little presumptuous. It is about as silly as saying that as soon as I jab your eyes out, it is all over. Sure, but a lot has to happen first before you get to your dominant position and a lot has to happen first, before I get to jab your eyes out. You can get your eyes jabbed while trying to get into a dominant position over me and I can get dominated before I get to jab your eyes out. It is all about understand the limitation of every technique and the work-around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    Instead of spending endless hours perfecting escape techniques and submission techniques, the time is better spent on learning a few lethal techniques, and how to avoid getting into situation where you have to fight off your back. I realize that some will throw out the age old argument that you can't prevent from being taken down and have to fight off your back. Well, if you focus your training on fighting off your back, that is where you are bound to end up. Learn counter takedown techniques. Add in lethal techniques to multiply the effectiveness of your counter takedown by orders of magnitude. Even when you are fighting off your back, there is no reason you can't use lethal techniques.

    I also know that many will argue that when you get in a dominant position, then it is all over. That is a little presumptuous. It is about as silly as saying that as soon as I jab your eyes out, it is all over. Sure, but a lot has to happen first before you get to your dominant position and a lot has to happen first, before I get to jab your eyes out. You can get your eyes jabbed while trying to get into a dominant position over me and I can get dominated before I get to jab your eyes out. It is all about understand the limitation of every technique and the work-around.
    I like the way you talk (said all Slingblade like)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BioHazzard
    So, that's your argument against Isometrics?

    Isometrics is a key to getting insanely strong. It is a proven method. It is not the only key. But it is an extremely effective one. There is more to it than just isometrics. But let's just leave it at that.
    I wasn't actually against doing isometric exercises at all. Of course they will help but there will always be a vast disparity in strength.

    Sweeps are hard to pull off and do reaquire a good maount of strength but the real key to their effectiveness is setting your opponent up for them properly.
  8. meh
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    “Sparring in most schools, creates a false sense of reality that tend to
    fail the students. Most MA schools teach self defence techniques that are
    deadly, but unfortunately, it is deadly to the one using them.”

    Sparring in a certain range is the best way to improve your skills in that range.


    “Sparring is good for sport fighting where you are not out to harm each
    other. … No weapon.”

    The best defense against a weapon is avoidance or a better and/or more proficient use of a weapon.
  9. meh
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    “No other gangbangers to gang up
    on you. No one pulls a gun, or a knife when you get him pinned on the
    ground. You don't have to worry about having your eyes jabbed out, your
    windpipe crashed. You don't worry about having your testicles crashed,
    your knees broken, or your ear drum punctured. If you miss in your punch,
    you don't have to worry about your partner stepping in to scratch your
    eyes out. If you miss in your roundhouse, you don't worry about your
    partner countering with breaking the knee of your supporting leg. When you
    close in for a takedown, you don't worry about losing your eyes. And you
    know for sure that, the most you get to lose is just your ego.”

    It is interesting that many self defense types tend to use similar arguments to support their training methods. These, as in your case, tend to revolve around weapons, multiple surprise attackers, and ‘dirty’ strikes (eye gouges, groin strikes, etc).

    The problem is that you have to use theory that is not supported by evidence. It is easy to talk about self defense when you don’t even train the techniques that you talk about. In other words, how many eyes have you poked out or ear drums have you punctured? If you have ever trained (or worse fought) a bjj black belt or an all American/national level wrestler, then you would realize that you will not be able to stop a takedown or gouge the eyes. These opponents leave you no space and use a lot of pressure.

    The problem revolves around the fact that you can’t stop a takedown if you haven’t spent a lot of time training wrestling with very good wrestlers (and maybe some of the other realistic throwing arts-sambo, judo). You can’t defend yourself on the ground if you haven’t spent a lot of time training there and the most proven art on the ground is BJJ. Finally, you can’t stay in striking range unless you have excellent boxing and some kicking – kicking defense skills. You get these skills by training with and against higher level practitioners in these arts and by sparring in these ranges. Ultimately, removing the arbitrary division of striking, clinch, and ground to train in all ranges.
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    “Instead of spending endless hours perfecting escape techniques and
    submission techniques, the time is better spent on learning a few lethal
    techniques, and how to avoid getting into situation where you have to
    fight off your back. I realize that some will throw out the age old
    argument that you can't prevent from being taken down and have to fight
    off your back. Well, if you focus your training on fighting off your back,
    that is where you are bound to end up.”

    If you don’t train it, then you can’t defend against it. You will not even know what is about happen.

    “Learn counter takedown techniques.”

    What is the source of your counter takedown techniques? Have you tried them against a high level takedown artist?
  11. meh
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    “Add in lethal techniques to multiply the effectiveness of your counter
    takedown by orders of magnitude. Even when you are fighting off your back,
    there is no reason you can't use lethal techniques.”

    You can use what ever technique you want, but you need a base from which to operate. On the ground, the base should be BJJ. I have been involved in martial arts for 20 years, including TKD, karate, JKD, kickboxing, wrestling, judo, and more than 13 years in BJJ having earned a black belt. You have no idea of how helpless you would be on the ground with a BJJ black belt and the same is true of takedowns against a very good wrestler, or striking with a very good kickboxer.

    I really don’t think that you will find anything more lethal than a choke. You have 3-5 seconds to get out prior to passing out. I know that you are thinking that you will just grab the groin or attempt an eye gouge to get out. You won’t have the time or the opportunity to do so.

    You have to train in these areas to be proficient. You can not just train different ‘scenarios.’ How many ‘scenarios’ could happen in real life? The numbers of possibilities is unlimited. I think that you should get good in each range and then if you want to add in lethal techniques, then feel free.

    The reality is that if a good boxer decided to eye jab, then he would be able to do so more effectively because of the skills he developed in timing, power, etc. The same would be true of any other range of combat. The person who sepnt more time training there will have many more options and a greater advantage.
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    Good point Meh. No sense in arguing with you about technique. At first I thought you were against jujitsu but then it turns out you are a black belt.
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    ...The best defense against a weapon is avoidance or a better and/or more proficient use of a weapon. ...
    Avoidance is always the best option. Self defence is mostly a mental skill. When you really have to resort to hand to hand, then that means all other things have already been messed up.

    You are assuming that when you get assaulted, your attacker waves the weapon at you and then come at you in predicted trajectory.

    That is where the problem arises. Real world weapon assault does not occur that way. Most of the time, the victims stated that they didn't see any knife until after they got hurt. And even then, some didn't even notice they were injured. All due to adrenaline rush.

    In combatives, we trend to recognize subtle signature move of weapon draw and intercept/interrupt that. We also have a different intercept techniques different from the stuffs commonly taught at most schools. Those have been proven to be deadly, to the one using them.
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    It is interesting that many self defense types tend to use similar arguments to support their training methods. These, as in your case, tend to revolve around weapons, multiple surprise attackers, and ‘dirty’ strikes (eye gouges, groin strikes, etc).

    The problem is that you have to use theory that is not supported by evidence. It is easy to talk about self defense when you don’t even train the techniques that you talk about. In other words, how many eyes have you poked out or ear drums have you punctured? If you have ever trained (or worse fought) a bjj black belt or an all American/national level wrestler, then you would realize that you will not be able to stop a takedown or gouge the eyes. These opponents leave you no space and use a lot of pressure.
    Unfortunately, you are making a lot more assumptions here.

    A. We do train with full speed and full force attack. We can do that, because we also use full gear for eyes, ear and most body parts protection.

    B. The argument that how many eyes have you poked out is simply silly. The counter argument can be make as to how many arm/leg joints have you broken? None? If anything, you train to let go when get tapped. When the bag guy taps you, you will instinctively let go too. That will be the reflex you are working hard to ingrain into your mind and body daily. lol Nice huh? lol

    C. Theory? Who is talking about theory? We are talking about battle tested, proven hand to hand, lethal techniques used in many battle fields since WWII. We are not talking about finesse theory. We are talking about sheer, brutal outburst of extreme violence.

    D. "...If you have ever trained (or worse fought) a bjj black belt or an all American/national level wrestler, then you would realize that you will not be able to stop a takedown or gouge the eyes. These opponents leave you no space and use a lot of pressure...."

    Sure, that would be correct, just as long as it is a sport sparring and they don't have to worry about getting maimed. As long as I am not allowed or inclined to blind them or maim them, then they can eat a few shots like everybody else can, and close in to take me down. That is sport fighting. That is not self defence as criminal assault in some unholy places at some ungodly hours of the night.

    BTW, forget about the sissy like eye-gauging or eye-scratching that most people resort to instinctively. We are talking about hardcore, lighting spear hand and tiger claw (for the lack of a better term) face slap plus gauging. There is a whole set of technique for that purpose.

    The grapplers like to say they can withstand the initial striking they have to take when they move in to take someone down. That is true because most people, including most martial artists, simply do not know and cannot deliver devastating strikes. I am sure that odd to piss off a lot of martial artists. But hey, if you disagree then go try it on a grappler. lol

    The problem revolves around the fact that you can’t stop a takedown if you haven’t spent a lot of time training wrestling with very good wrestlers (and maybe some of the other realistic throwing arts-sambo, judo). You can’t defend yourself on the ground if you haven’t spent a lot of time training there and the most proven art on the ground is BJJ.
    What makes you think we don't train counter takedown? lol What makes you think we don't practice escape techniques? We just do it a bit differently.

    The Russian special forces have researched counter grappling thoroughly. Their conclusion is, most of the takedown and grappling techniques can be easily neutralized when lethal techniques are used. Grappling is only effective when lethal techniques are disallowed. But I think your idea of what constitute lethal techniques and when to apply them, would be different from ours. So, we could be arguing orange vs apples there.


    Finally, you can’t stay in striking range unless you have excellent boxing and some kicking – kicking defense skills. You get these skills by training with and against higher level practitioners in these arts and by sparring in these ranges. Ultimately, removing the arbitrary division of striking, clinch, and ground to train in all ranges.
    You are talking about sport sparring. Not that there is anything wrong with that. It is just a different set of games.
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    You can use what ever technique you want, but you need a base from which to operate. On the ground, the base should be BJJ. I have been involved in martial arts for 20 years, including TKD, karate, JKD, kickboxing, wrestling, judo, and more than 13 years in BJJ having earned a black belt. You have no idea of how helpless you would be on the ground with a BJJ black belt and the same is true of takedowns against a very good wrestler, or striking with a very good kickboxer.
    With all due respect, while you may have 20 years of experience, you are simply tranplanting your ineffective striking against effective grappling. That point has already been proven by the Gracies, in sport fighting. You are not breaking new ground there.

    Again, it is sport sparring and sport matches. It is not real world assault.
    I really don’t think that you will find anything more lethal than a choke. You have 3-5 seconds to get out prior to passing out. I know that you are thinking that you will just grab the groin or attempt an eye gouge to get out. You won’t have the time or the opportunity to do so.
    May be you missed my points totally. You are again referring to sport sparring and matches. From your description of the application, it is clear to me that you have zero training in executing effective eye strikes and other lethal techniques. That is not unexpected, as you have trained in sport sparring and matches. You PRESUME that such strikes are used to 'get out'. You PRESUME that you can get into position to place choke. I have already stated that a lot of things have to happen before you get to that position. Of course when you get to that position then it is all over. No one denies that. A choke is nice, IF you can do it. Not only that you have to get close enough for me to blind you before you even notice my hands, while you are busy with trying to get a choke on me, my homies would stick a piece in your kidney. Life is a *****... I know. lol

    You have to train in these areas to be proficient. You can not just train different ‘scenarios.’ How many ‘scenarios’ could happen in real life? The numbers of possibilities is unlimited. I think that you should get good in each range and then if you want to add in lethal techniques, then feel free.
    You don't understand the part about practicing to ''apply principles to scenario". It isn't about replicating canned response, which by the way, is examplified by the usual Mcdojo weapon disarm training. "Stab me this way and I will do this and this and then this." lol I am talking about learning to apply the principles in different scenario. After that, you can improvise and apply the principles and techniques to any scenarios that arise.

    With your 20 years experience, this ought to be clear to you already.
    The reality is that if a good boxer decided to eye jab, then he would be able to do so more effectively because of the skills he developed in timing, power, etc. The same would be true of any other range of combat. The person who sepnt more time training there will have many more options and a greater advantage.
    Boxing is an effective striking art. But as it is practiced, is not a complete art. Therefore, he will also have a lot of ineffective and deadly-to-himself techniques he has laboriously ingrained into his reflexes over the year. That will be what gets him killed.

    Sport rules are deadly to the users. lol Wow... the irony!! lol

    Spending more time training is better than spending less. But you also have to take into consideration of what it is that you are training.
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