so what's everyone eager for?! - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 4

so what's everyone eager for?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDMMA View Post
    lol!

    That is disappointing
    I don't want to release anything more than what i'm supposed to....but let's just say one of the flavors was good...and the other was AWESOME.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTDeuce View Post
    I don't want to release anything more than what i'm supposed to....but let's just say one of the flavors was good...and the other was AWESOME.
    Mmm, yum.

    Can you divulge whether or not the flavors are unique?
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    All I can say is the two flavors I got to test out where absolutely spot on and everyone is in for a treat.....and the myco powders taste like drinking a mint lawn which may sound bad but it's very palatable....I can't stand drinking greens in powder and this was good to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanp81
    All I can say is the two flavors I got to test out where absolutely spot on and everyone is in for a treat.....and the myco powders taste like drinking a mint lawn which may sound bad but it's very palatable....I can't stand drinking greens in powder and this was good to go.
    And you didn't sneak me some in an envelope to Aus? C'mon Ryan hahah
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    All I can say is that I'm really looking forward to the new flavors since I've been drinking bubba punch for the last year and a half ( which I don't mind ) and I will not use any other BCAA or EAA drink just because everything else sucks IMO....Runner If you ever want to try stuff out from my stash shoot me an email and I'll see what I can do, pending how much it cost to send to Australia.
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    Any word on Nutra carrying the MycoGreen Powder? I very interested in this
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmc4180 View Post
    Any word on Nutra carrying the MycoGreen Powder? I very interested in this
    we need people like you who are interested in the product to call or email NP and ask for it by name. Right now it's only an Australian release because our "users" over there asked for something just like it, and then they received what they wanted. Until there is a solid enough buzz for it as a US release....it might not get released here.

    Light up those phones
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmc4180 View Post
    Any word on Nutra carrying the MycoGreen Powder? I very interested in this
    We need everyone like you that is interested in the product to call/email the crap out of NP and request it by name . Right now its an Aussie exclusive product because people over there begged for something like that to come out
    Millennium Sport Technologies Representative/Sponsored Athlete
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTDeuce

    We need everyone like you that is interested in the product to call/email the crap out of NP and request it by name . Right now its an Aussie exclusive product because people over there begged for something like that to come out
    One for the Aussies...woohoo
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDMMA View Post
    As much as it pains me to say it, it would be nice to see a higher stim pre, for those who need more of a kick in the pants. Usually I would say a low dose of 1,3, but since that's being phased out, NMT could be it's replacement (sort of), seeing as it is quickly gaining ground. Alternatively, it would be even nicer to see a low-stim, or stim-free pre, that has ingredients that RagNOrock does not, allowing them to be coupled.
    I wouldn't hold my breath just yet...PA got my undivided attention with this.

    http://patrickarnoldblog.com/more-re...nmt-wont-work/
    http://patrickarnoldblog.com/a-new-s...or-a-new-scam/

    Obviously I'm gonna question does this product work...not sure and all the feedback I've received has been anecdotal word of mouth, it has been positive but the NMT was with other stims...so the verdicts out. Regular Tyramine does a bang up job IMO. Btw for anyone who has PM'd me asking me questions ( not just in this forum ) I appreciate it... but as an avid poster here on the MST side I feel alot of requests here for new or ravamped products are warranted but I just feel If it ain't broke don't fix it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanp81 View Post
    I wouldn't hold my breath just yet...PA got my undivided attention with this.

    http://patrickarnoldblog.com/more-re...nmt-wont-work/
    http://patrickarnoldblog.com/a-new-s...or-a-new-scam/

    Obviously I'm gonna question does this product work...not sure and all the feedback I've received has been anecdotal word of mouth, it has been positive but the NMT was with other stims...so the verdicts out. Regular Tyramine does a bang up job IMO. Btw for anyone who has PM'd me asking me questions ( not just in this forum ) I appreciate it... but as an avid poster here on the MST side I feel alot of requests here for new or ravamped products are warranted but I just feel If it ain't broke don't fix it.
    Old news.

    NMT works in synergy with other compounds, such as caffeine... so it's best to be used with other stims anyways. And if tyramine alone works well for you, the methylated version should work as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synapsin

    “NMT is known to possess strong stimulant activity, resulting in long lasting smooth energy”

    "Oh really? That is simply not true. In fact it produces essentially no stimulant activity. I will explain why below from a chemical standpoint, but from a personal standpoint you should know I have tried the stuff in 50 and 100mg doses and felt nothing except perhaps some pressure in my head and chest. Others have tried it with similar failed results."



    How surprising that someone with such a vendetta and his unnamed friends would have something negative to say about a compound that someone he hates is promoting against the compound PA is famous for. Anyhow, on this matter…

    NMT has been shown to increase blood pressure in rats, increase in blood pressure, relaxation of the ileum, an increase in force of the right atrium due to norepinephrine release, and an increase in rate of contraction in right atrium due to norepinephrine release (Evans et al 1979). It also depleted the NE content of rat heart, indicating it stimulates NE release (Camp, 1970). Koda et al (1999) found that N-methyltyramine acts as an alpha 2 antagonist, also finding that the potency of NMT is stronger in vivo than in vitro. It also was alluded that NMT may have more blood brain barrier permeability than the compound they were comparing it to, RX821002, which already has established BBB permeability (Hume et al, 1992; Clark et al, 2002).

    N-methyltyramine increased cAMP in mice and cGMP in mice and guinea pigs in vivo. N-Methyltyramine had also had positive inotropic effect in vitro in guinea pig atrium, and in perfused guinea pig heart (Yen and Chung, 1981). N-Methyltyramine was positively inotropic when given i.v. to dogs at 0.25 and 0.5 mg/kg while racemic p-synephrine was positively inotropic at 0.5 and 1.0 mg/kg (Chen et al., 1980). The anti-shock effect on the heart is similar to that of synephrine (Zhao et al., 1989).

    So how does it act to those asking? It is an indirect acting amine that releases cytoplasmic norepinephrine from sympathetic nerve endings, due to its phenyl ring OH group at the 4 position, just like tyramine is, thus being referred to as a sympathomimetic amine by the definition given by Dale & Berger in 1910 (Burn et al, 1958). Amphetamine and cocaine also indirectly to induce NE release, mind you they are obviously different in terms of effect and structure, but that is still their mechanism of action. Ironically enough, this would probably be the only mechanism that methylhexanamine could possibly work as a stimulant, so unless you`re also implying your product doesn`t work, then what are you implying by giving us anecdotal proof that NMT doesn’t work?


    I am not sure what he means here by side effects from tyramine but perhaps he means hypertension, which is greatly exaggerated in those taking MAO inhibitors. N-methyl tyramine is well documented in the literature to possess similar pressor (blood pressure increasing) activity as tyramine so this statement is completely unfounded. Klein appears to be making this one up in order to sell product.



    No, that's not what all the side effects are, he's not mentioning diet related issues, which are key to people who are bodybuilding, the issue is not as big a deal if you are not taking an MAOI but still notable to use, and still more extreme with tyramine than NMT. Also, The pressor action of N-methyltyramine and hordenine is lower than that of the primary amine tyramine, so NMT is weaker due to its N-methyl group, but it is metabolized slower than tyramine, making it more effective (Dale and Barger, 1910; Vandenburg et al, 2004).





    "First of all I am not familiar with the term “tightness of breath” (maybe he means shortness of breath, or tightness of chest”?) Secondly I am at a loss as to what these unique NMT receptors might be. Do you have any idea? I think they might be called the bull**** receptors but I am not sure"


    That is a typo, it should say shortness of breath, dyspnea, but seriously, you’re an editor now? As for those "unique" NMT receptors, where does it mention NMT has it's own receptors? All I see is the ad saying the receptors NMT acts on, such as the adrenergic receptors. Burn (1930) noted that the response of NMT’s pressor action was not mainly due to vasoconstriction does not appear to play an important part in this response (Burn, 1930). As for the exercise portion alluded to, neuron already wrote about how it would work, so this is from neuron’s article on 1,3 at bodybuilding.com

    “The most important and relevant aspect of 1,3-DMAA's pharmacology is its effects on blood pressure during exercise. In a normal individual, systolic pressure generally increases as a consequence of an increased stroke volume, among other things. Similarly, diastolic pressure generally decreases or stays the same as the vascular beds in muscle are vasodilated [4]. The etiology of the vasodilation is due to localized effects of vasodilating metabolites (adenosine, exc) and due to hyper-responsiveness to catecholamine agonism of the beta2 receptors. Since norepinphrine and epinephrine saturate the plasma during exercise, the vasoconstrictive properties of 1,3-DMAA may be sufficiently blunted, especially in the amounts generally taken (20-30mg), and especially through oral administration. It's efffects may, however, by exaggerated by the co-administration of other adrenergic agents.”


    “The structure of 1,3,DMAA does not contain the key components that are required by any decent stimulant, making it not only relatively inferior in terms of energy to NMT, but also producing more side effects”
    LOL. I would be happy to debate the chemistry of stimulants with Klein, and in fact I will do so now. Mind you, this is some complicated chemistry for many of you. Unfortunately facts don’t come in clever marketing quips but in actual science, so bear with me.
    This is an excellent paper on the relationships between chemical structure and pharmacological activity of symphathomimetic compounds. The word sympathomimetic means stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system which is achieved by compounds such as adrenaline and ephedrine. Such stimulation results in increased activity and energy expenditure.”


    Nice try implying it is not sympathomimetic, read what I said earlier.


    In this study they determined sympathomimetic activity by examining the locomotor activity of mice in response to a wide variety of compounds. They found some key characteristics that affected activity:
    1) For significant activity the carbon chain must be two carbons from the bulky substituent (phenyl ring or alkane ring / branched chain). Methylhexanamine (1,3-DMAA) and N-methyltyramine both have this.


    Yep.


    2) The amino group must be bound to a secondary carbon atom. If it is not then the compound will be quickly destroyed by monoamine oxidases. Methylhexanamine has this, N-methyltyramine does not.


    I would have to see this paper, because this part is absolutely hilarious, and see below about the half-life.


    3) The presence of an OH in the phenyl ring leads to definite loss of activity. This is because it drastically reduces the ability of the compound to cross the blood brain barrier. N-methyltyramine contains such a group, for methylhexanamine it is not an issue.


    Why are you comparing compounds that are not similar in structure in terms of structure, and not effects? Just because Marsh said it has similar time duration to amphetamine than phenethylamine? This makes absolutely no sense other than the fact that you are misleading people on purpose, methylhexanamine does not have a benzene ring attached to it, and the absence of a benzene ring reduces its central effects, but does not affect methylhexanamine’s peripheral effects (hence why it was originally noted for being used as a nasal decongestant). However you are on the right path, a OH group on the 4 position usually removes the resistance phenylethylamine based compounds resistance to COMT, but this does not reduce their alpha adrenergic activity by very much, nor does it matter for this compound when you consider the pharmacokinetics mentioned later.

    The OH group that NMT has makes it so NMT does not cross the blood brain barrier in a significant manner, so it is a much more potent peripheral stimulant than a central stimulant, just like methylhexanamine, due to its lack of a beta hydroxyl group, although some people believe otherwise, see what I said earlier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapsin

    Now beyond just discussing rules the paper specifically stated that methylhexanamine does have sympathomimetic activity, but you knew that (if you ever tried the stuff). Although they did not test N-methyltyramine they did test tyramine, and tyramine showed no activity. But this comes as no surprise since tyramine fails two of the key requirements for symphatomimetic activity. N-methyltyramine fails these same two requirements, so it surely is inactive as well (but I already knew that from first hand experience).



    Once again, you didn’t do very much research on this, did you? Read my opening statement on it's sympathomimetic activity, sorry I didn't check your "NMT doesn't work" log bro.


    1) NMT has been shown to have no lipolytic activity and in fact may be anti-lipolytic. What that means is that it not only has been shown to not have fat burning qualities but it may actually interfere with fat burning.

    Isopropylnorsynephrine is a stronger lipolytic agent in human adipocytes than synephrine and other amines present in Citrus aurantium.
    Mercader J, Wanecq E, Chen J, Carpéné C.
    Source
    Institut National de la Santé et de la Recherche Médicale (INSERM), U1048, Toulouse, France.
    Abstract
    The weight loss observed in consumers of extracts of Citrus aurantium (bitter orange) has been tentatively attributed to the lipolytic and thermogenic effects of the alkaloids abundant in the unripe fruit. Synephrine, octopamine, tyramine, and other alkaloids have been repeatedly identified and quantified in Citrus members of the Rutaceae family or in their extracts incorporated in dietary supplements for weight management. However, there are only scarce reports on their lipolytic action. This study aimed at comparing the acute lipolytic activity of synephrine, octopamine, tyramine, and N-methyltyramine in rat and human adipocytes. Maximal response to the prototypical β-adrenergic agonist isoprenaline was taken as reference in both species. In rat, octopamine was slightly more active than synephrine while tyramine and N-methyl tyramine did not stimulate-and even inhibited-lipolysis. In human adipocytes, none of these amines stimulated lipolysis when tested up to 10 μg/ml. At higher doses (≥100 μg/ml), tyramine and N-methyl tyramine induced only 20% of the maximal lipolysis and exhibited antilipolytic properties. Synephrine and octopamine were partially stimulatory at high doses. Since synephrine is more abundant than octopamine in C. aurantium, it should be the main responsible for the putative lipolytic action of the extracts claimed to mitigate obesity. Noteworthy, their common isopropyl derivative, isopropylnorsynephrine (also named isopropyloctopamine or betaphrine), was clearly lipolytic: active at 1 μg/ml and reproducing more than 60% of isoprenaline maximal effect in human adipocytes. This compound, not detected in C. aurantium, and which has few reported adverse effects to date, might be useful for in vivo triglyceride breakdown



    Congratulations, you managed to read my article that already stated this, and I don’t see ergogenix claiming it stimulates lipolysis, not to mention that same article also shows that synephrine would counterbalance the effects of NMT inhibiting lipolysis.



    2) Its elimination half life is extremely short (5.6 minutes). If you recall in my original post I told you that its structural characteristics are such that it will be rapidly destroyed by monoamine oxidases, and this is precisely why it’s half life is so short. Knowing this you must consider any “in-vitro” data on how NMT functions is in large part irrelevant because after ingestion the compound wont last long enough in the body to be of practical significance. Well, unless you take a dose every half hour throughout the day or something.



    See what I’m going to write below on the half-life of NMT.


    “Disposition of N-methyl-[ring-3,5-3H]tyramine in rabbits and mice.
    Hai H, Guo ZG, Wang JM.
    Abstract
    After iv bolus injection of N-methyl-[ring-3,5-3H] tyramine ([3H]MT) [editors note: this is an radioisotopically labelled version of NMT] 14.8 MBq/kg in rabbits, the plasma concentration-time data was found to be in accordance with the 2-compartment model. The pharmacokinetic parameters were: T1/2 alpha = 0.3 min, T1/2 beta = 5.6 min, K12 = 0.69/min, K21 = 0.21/min, K10 = 1.6/min, VC = 0.4 L/kg, Cl = 0.62 L/kg.min-1. [3H]MT was taken up by organs rapidly and extensively. Two min after administration, a large amount of radioactivity was detected in every organ sampled. The highest amounts were in the kidney and liver, followed by lung, small intestine, heart, skeletal muscle, spleen, brain and fat. The drug was metabolized extremely fast in vivo. The metabolites were found in the plasma chromatogram just 0.5 min after dosing, while over 80% were found in the urine within 1 h. After a 1 h collecting period, the radioactivity recovered in the urine amounted to 79% of the injected dose. By the end of a 6 h collection, almost no drug was detected in the body.”



    Are you really comparing the pharmacokinetics of IV use to oral use? Or do you normally cite papers to highlight your point but don’t even read the abstract thoroughly?
    This is the reason IV use is useful: Used when a rapid clinical response is necessary, e.g., an acute asthmatic episode. This route allows one to achieve relatively precise drug concentrations in the plasma, since bioavailability is not a concern. Most drugs should be injected over 1-2 minutes in order to prevent the occurrence of very high drug concentrations in the injected vein, possibly causing adverse effects. Some drugs, particularly those with narrow therapeutic indices or short half-lives, are best administered as a slow IV infusion or drip.

    Those researchers were testing NMT in IV use because it was being used at that time along with synephine as anti-shock medications for patients in their hospital, and they are administered through IV to temporarily combat the body’s natural pressure homeostasis. Now, for all of you reading this, this is why it doesn’t make any sense to not only compare IV to oral use, let alone to compare it across species:


    D2-like dopamine receptors mediate the response to amphetamine in a mouse model of ADHD
    Although there is no clear formula for converting human doses to mouse, 4 mg/kg amphetamine was selected based on the pharmacokinetic species differences and dose range in humans. The typical therapeutic dose range for amphetamine in humans is 0.2 – 0.5 mg/kg and drug half-life is ~6–8 hrs (Brown et al., 1979, Greenhill et al., 2003). In contrast, the half-life of amphetamine in mice is ~20 – 50 min (Miller et al., 1971, Fuller et al., 1972, Riffee et al., 1978); as much as 20-fold faster clearance than in humans. (Fan et al. 2007)



    Now, for data more useful for humans, this is data on amphetamine, also giving evidence to the difference across species to the source above:


    Amphetamine is rapidly absorbed after oral ingestion.

    Peak plasma levels occur within 1 to 3 hours, varying with the degree of physical activity and the amount of food in the stomach. Absorption is usually complete by 4 to 6 hours. Sustained release preparations are available as resin-bound, rather than soluble, salts. These compounds display reduced peak blood levels compared with standard amphetamine preparations, but total amount absorbed and time to peak levels remain similar (Dollery, 1991).



    So it makes no sense to make such a ridiculous claim that the two animal models are compatible in terms of pharmacokinetics, let alone also comparing different routes of administration. Now to NMT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Synapsin

    Half life of NMT

    “Tyramine maximum serum concentration was observed between 20 minutes and 1 hour when the dose was administered after an overnight fast and appeared to be delayed and/or prolonged by administration during a meal. Tyramine oral clearance was 135 ± 55.4 L/min, maximum observed serum concentration was 37.7 ± 26.01 ng/mL, and tyramine elimination half-life was 0.533 (range: 0.330-0.668) hours after administration to fasted subjects (VanDenBerg et al, 2003).”

    NMT will have a longer half-life than tyramine because the methyl group has to be removed before the demination process takes place (Jaya et al, 2004).






    Kimura et al. (2000) studied the bioavailability of oral N-methyltyramine, giving us the model of the oral use of NMT, on the right of this figure. I also included the figure that the rabbit IV study produced that PA cited. Look at the difference, and tell me that it makes sense to compare the two, because it doesn’t. Of importance is that 90% of orally ingested NMT is absorbed in the small intestine, particularly in the lower jejunum and the ileum, and that NMT is metabolized in the liver, but not in the small-intestinal mucosa.


    3) NMT will increase your appetite. I am not kidding you – in fact it was even patented in Japan for this specific purpose. Articles were published showing it is the major constituent in beer that causes increased gastric secretions and hence those cravings you get for bratwursts or potato chips after a few budweisers. Obviously, appetite stimulation is not a property amenable to a diet related supplement product. It may on the other hand be an ingredient useful in a bulking up supplement.
    —————————————————————————————— –
    Japanese Patent JP 11158064
    Abstract:
    PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED: To provide an aperitive additive for beverages and foods that can be readily and simply taken to safely and effectively increase the appetites and provide aperitive beverages and foods containing the same.
    SOLUTION: This invention provides the beverages and foods to which at least one of N-methyltyramine and N,N-dimethyl-tyramine and a gastrin secretion-promoting fraction as a fermentation product are added as a gastrin secretion-promoting component, or provides an aperitive additive, an additive for domestic animals and an appetite-increasing agent containing the same. In addition, this invention provides the use of the gastrin secretion-promoting component for producing these additives and the production process for the gastrin secretion



    Are you serious? Once again, you didn’t even read the paper you’re citing. From the very same article:

    “Contrary to the significant stimulatory effect of intragastric administration of NMT, intravenous infusion of NMT did not affect pancreatic secretion, and NMT did not stimulate amylase release in vitro. These results suggest that NMT does not act directly on pancreatic acinar cells. Pancreatic exocrine secretion is controlled by neural and hormonal signals (Singer, 1993).”

    And again, from the same paper:

    “Moreover, neither the gastrin ⁄CCK-B receptor antagonist YM022 nor the proton pump inhibitor prevented the stimulatory effect of NMT. Therefore, the involvement of gastrin, gastrin ⁄CCK-B receptors, and gastric acid in NMT action on pancreatic secretion could be ruled out. Sensory afferent fibers are distributed in the stomach and small intestine and mediate the mechanical and chemical signals of gastric distension and luminal nutrients.”

    So how does this apply to oral use? Not even IV use stimulated the gastro-pancreatic reflex, only an intragastric injection stimulated this activity.



    So there you have it. A blog with some intriguing and relevant science about a nutritional supplement ingredient. No personal attacks and a real intent to avoid bias on my behalf.
    Once again, I remind you that my comment section is open. I invite anyone that disagrees with my conclusions on the posted science, or who has valid scientific arguments of their own, to post them there (instead of on some web forum where I am banned and unable to stand up for myself)



    All I saw was a man grasping at straws because of a vendetta, not relevant science. You can reply all you want to this, but unless it’s something that is actually worth replying to and compels me to reply to it, I won’t bother. I only posted this for those curious about NMT.


    After reading everything that was said, by PA, and PA only, my respect for him his greatly diminished, one personal attack after the next, directed at both James, and Syn. He does some good research, but his attacks were unprecedented.
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    A solid nootropic blend to go with what I call the "Stamina Stack," ( Cordygen 5, Carnage, CRE-02 and Nitroceps). Best stack I have used to date, period, and everyone I let try it and who have ordered it agree. So to recap,lol,: 1. A GOOD nootropic blend, don't care whether it's caps or drink (problably caps 'cause those ingredients taste foul) and 2. Market those four items as the "Stamina Stack" or whatever you folks wanna call it and watch the stellar reviews pour in. I lucked out and got 2 of those stacks over a year ago on a New Years sale, so I got em for cheap but they are worth every penny. Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by subweevil View Post
    A solid nootropic blend to go with what I call the "Stamina Stack," ( Cordygen 5, Carnage, CRE-02 and Nitroceps). Best stack I have used to date, period, and everyone I let try it and who have ordered it agree. So to recap,lol,: 1. A GOOD nootropic blend, don't care whether it's caps or drink (problably caps 'cause those ingredients taste foul) and 2. Market those four items as the "Stamina Stack" or whatever you folks wanna call it and watch the stellar reviews pour in. I lucked out and got 2 of those stacks over a year ago on a New Years sale, so I got em for cheap but they are worth every penny. Thanks!
    Gotta love nootropics Have you checked out RagNOrok? Specifically caffeine-free? Has a nice nootropic blend in there, it would also take care of your creatine needs, 2g of BA, and you'd get all the benefits of the other ingredients, many ingredients which are in CRE-02 and Nitroceps. If you stacked all five products...
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDMMA View Post
    Gotta love nootropics Have you checked out RagNOrok? Specifically caffeine-free? Has a nice nootropic blend in there, it would also take care of your creatine needs, 2g of BA, and you'd get all the benefits of the other ingredients, many ingredients which are in CRE-02 and Nitroceps. If you stacked all five products...
    Yep, sure have. Don't get me wrong, I loved everything about it, except that it didn't get me "Dialed in" or give me that "Focus". That would lead me to wanting what I requested, a GOOD nootropic product. Then I could stack it as I saw fit. I'd like to see sulbutiamine added into the mix as well as some others. I do understand though how expensive this all can or could be and that there needs to be a big enough market for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by subweevil View Post
    Yep, sure have. Don't get me wrong, I loved everything about it, except that it didn't get me "Dialed in" or give me that "Focus". That would lead me to wanting what I requested, a GOOD nootropic product. Then I could stack it as I saw fit. I'd like to see sulbutiamine added into the mix as well as some others. I do understand though how expensive this all can or could be and that there needs to be a big enough market for it.
    Ahh I see, fair enough. I would be all for a nootropic product as well, imo there's always room for nootropic products

    Sulb would be a good option; there's quite a few nootropics that I would like to see in a blend, but as you said, price is certainly a factor, and more importantly, there has to be a market for it.
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    I would be a buyer of a MST nootropic blend as well.
    :blindfold:
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    interesting
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTDeuce
    interesting
    A nootropic would be awesome. Something similar to craze, but with sulb and no creatine...endurance

    Chuck, I forgot to ask...can you find out post $ and lemme know.
    Cheers bro
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