time line for TRT results

[namtrag]

So far after approximately 6 weeks on TRT, the only things I can see any improvement on is my recovery when working out ( I am not as sore the next day), and a slight improvement in my libido. If anything I have gotten a little fatter since I started.

Can I expect any lowering of bodyfat to start occurring? If so , how long might it take? I am keeping my diet and lifting pretty consistent.

I had 3 shots of cypionate, 125mg, 2 weeks apart, and then, starting a week ago, switched onto daily dosage of compounded cream of 30mg of T, 5mg of progesterone.

 

[SOLARUS]

any AIs?

125mg 2 weeks apart is pretty terrible, IMO.

 

[namtrag]

Yes, I think the daily cream is going to be a lot better, as long as my skin absorbs it well. Like I said, I have not had any "aha, it's working" moments yet.

What is an AI?

 

[MetalMX]

Aromatase Inhibitor which prevents the conversion of testosterone to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme. You don't want high estrogen and with any form of TRT theirs a chance some of the testosterone you inject will increase your estrogen levels to unwanted levels. That's why using an AI like arimidex is a must to keep your testosterone as testosterone in the body.

Symptoms of high estrogen: weight gain, migraines, fluid retention, high blood pressure, fatigue, aging skin, thinning hair. And high estrogen will trump high testosterone levels.

I have to agree 125mg every two weeks is pretty terrible, your blood levels will be up and down and your not going to feel too great. You should be on 100-150mg per week, some doctors even prescribe 200mg a week. Also i wouldn't use creams as they can make you infertile and don't work as well. Your doctor doesn't seem to know what he's doing.

 

[SOLARUS]

Also i wouldn't use creams as they can make you infertile

huh? do you mean progesterone+T creams, or T creams? the latter is virtually identical to shots...

 

[MetalMX]

Yes the progesterone+T ones sorry

 

[namtrag]

My estradiol was at the lower end of the range, why do AI's if there is not a problem?

The shots were in the past (at least for now). I will give the cream a chance and see what happens. To be perfectly honest, I have not noticed much difference with shots or cream. Even the first few days after the shots, I really had no "aha, it's working" moments.

I am beginning to think the libido problem was all in my head, and the inability to lose body fat is just tough luck! lol

 

[dougfl]

I have been on TRT for 6 months now and the results are nothing short of amazing! I started at 225lbs with a 38inch waist, I am now 205lbs with a 34inch waist and my muscles are bigger and more defined than ever. I am stronger now than before and feel loke I am in my 20's again, not to mention what it has done for my sex life. I am on 200mg Test E every 7-10 days and 1/2 MG of Armidex 3x weekly.

 

[namtrag]

Congrats dude! I hope I have some results too, but so far, not much is happening. I am actually at the same or higher weight than when I started, but only a pound or two.

The main improvement, like I said before, is less soreness the day after lifting.

 

[MetalMX]

Have you got any recent blood work? Test, Estradiol...

Your T levels probably aren't where they need to be that's why you aren't getting the benefits.

 

[namtrag]

Testosterone was a separate test, 296

Here were the other things I had tested prior to starting on TRT, copied from my other thread:

Pregnenolone: <10 (<20-100)
Progesterone: .7 (.3-1.2)
DHEA: 340 (107-745). He said he prefers to get people to 600 or more
Cortisol: 15.8 (4-22)
Estradiol, free: 1.0 (.8-3.5)
Estradiol, serum: 21 (0-53)
PSA: 1.7 (0-4.0). Screened me to make sure doing testosterone was ok
SHBG: 26 (20-60)
IGF-1: 261 (94-252). One good result!!!!
Magnesium: 4.3 (4.2-6.8). He wants this higher
Selenium: 380 (42-1400). He also wants this higher
Zinc: 980 (1000-2000). Says this needs to really be up, especially in light of the fact my prostate is enlarged already
Vit D: 34.1 (32-100). Again, he will be treating me for this being at low end
Vitamin C: .2 (.4-2.0). I take 4 g a day, and still am way low. He is giving it to me in a different form, buffered, and also some that is fat soluble.
Vitamin B1 and B12 were both high, which he said was fine.
Insulin: 3.2 (0-29). He said this was fine.

I am taking pregnenolone, DHEA, and other supps on a daily basis, and am having a series of IV's and shots of Vit D to get my mineral levels higher.

 

[namtrag]

Forgot to add, levels to be rechecked on everything in another 2-3 months

 

[JanSz]

Testosterone was a separate test, 296

Here were the other things I had tested prior to starting on TRT, copied from my other thread:

Pregnenolone: <10 (<20-100)
Progesterone: .7 (.3-1.2)
DHEA: 340 (107-745). He said he prefers to get people to 600 or more
Cortisol: 15.8 (4-22)
Estradiol, free: 1.0 (.8-3.5)
Estradiol, serum: 21 (0-53)
PSA: 1.7 (0-4.0). Screened me to make sure doing testosterone was ok
SHBG: 26 (20-60)
IGF-1: 261 (94-252). One good result!!!!
Magnesium: 4.3 (4.2-6.8). He wants this higher
Selenium: 380 (42-1400). He also wants this higher
Zinc: 980 (1000-2000). Says this needs to really be up, especially in light of the fact my prostate is enlarged already
Vit D: 34.1 (32-100). Again, he will be treating me for this being at low end
Vitamin C: .2 (.4-2.0). I take 4 g a day, and still am way low. He is giving it to me in a different form, buffered, and also some that is fat soluble.
Vitamin B1 and B12 were both high, which he said was fine.
Insulin: 3.2 (0-29). He said this was fine.

I am taking pregnenolone, DHEA, and other supps on a daily basis, and am having a series of IV's and shots of Vit D to get my mineral levels higher.

SHBG: 26 (20-60)
Estradiol, serum: 21 (0-53)

Your e2 test is wrong, next time do ultrasensitive.

Your testosterone is low, E2 is low.

Stop anything that can be considered AI.

Try test injection 200mg/ml
EOD every other day, each shot 25units
on days in between 500iu hcg

Next time check your DHT.

Are you secondary or primary.
If you are secondary, you may get better treatment with higher doses of HCG only. Have to try to see if it would work.

Yes you are low on minerals.

Probably low digestive juices, is a good start to look.

Read
TESTOSTERONE NATION

zinc tally and Betaine HCL
I use 6 tablets with each meal

Country Life Betaine Hydrochloride with Pepsin -- 600 mg - 250 Tablets

Country Life Betaine Hydrochloride with Pepsin -- 600 mg - 250 Tablets - Vitacost

Also use good enzyme and probiotics.

Also good NutrEval test from Genova Diagnostics.
Would give you real good once over, plus would tell you what you need to make corrective action, name & daily dose.
.
.

 

[namtrag]

I am getting IV's of zinc and magnesium a few times, then switching to oral. I will talk with doc about this next time.

I am still waiting for the DHT result.

 

[tawney]

dude you started off with what would be about 60mg per week 'total', but you got that dose with only one shot every 2 weeks of 125mg.

THATS why it didn't work. That amount bi-weekly will not do it. Now he's got you on that cream- which is also weak, and usually gives a guy a level of around 4-600 if it absorbs properly (at least that's what the research hopes it will do) and in my opinion that is still too low to "Feel" it. I mean look at it this way: Lots of guys at 400 are almost ready to GET ON HRT because of that level, not be happy to REACH 400.

This is just my opinion, but for replacement of testosterone you need to get your levels above 800. Don't flame me- this is JMO, and after reading 1,000 threads from other men, THESE ARE THE MEN WHO ARE HAPPY.

to get there you need 150-200mg per week. THEN you will "feel" like you were hoping to feel. again: if there's guys out there reading this who are happy at 500 with their cream, God bless ya! lol

hope that helps.

ps> obviously this doc who is treating you is not gonna give you 200 per week- so you probably would have to get another doctor if you want to do this right.

 

[OldGator]

In defense of T-Cream

he's got you on that cream- which is also weak, and usually gives a guy a level of around 4-600 .

Most docs, even the best like Dr. John and my doc (Shippen) start TRT patients out on cream first, then move on to injects if necessary. You're just 6 weeks into it. When I was only 6 weeks into it I hadn't even started T yet. I was doing the Clomid test and, later, the HCG protocol to see what my own body could produce.

I then started a protocol of T-Cream and HCG. Because I started out with lower DHT, the increase of DHT I got from T-Cream was great for libido (as Dr. John says "DHT is the male hormone"). You don't get as big a pop in DHT on injects. So it's important you know your DHT levels - I didn't see this on your test. Always track this, especially when doing cream.

After a month or two of tweaking I'm now pushing 700-800 TT on T-Cream and HCG but I don't get too caught up on TT. It's the Free T you want to focus on. Shippen uses a chart that calculates Free T by plotting the intersection of TT and SHBG. (JanSz has an online version somewhere). Because Shippen cut my SHBG in half with low dose Danazol, my Free T is 4-5x higher than when I started and I feel great. Took 5 months.

BTW, I don't use an AI either as my E has never really budged from 20-22. But I do use DIMM every day.

Looking at what you posted I would have 2 concerns:

1.) I don't like to comment on other people's doses but your dose of 30mg ED seems WAY too low if you are talking compounded cream. I started at 140mg and am now at 180mg. Are you sure you are at 30mg??

2.) Will your doc consider "maintenance" HCG after the TRT has shut down your natural production??

Good luck.

 

[JanSz]

Most docs, even the best like Dr. John and my doc (Shippen) start TRT patients out on cream first, then move on to injects if necessary. You're just 6 weeks into it. When I was only 6 weeks into it I hadn't even started T yet. I was doing the Clomid test and, later, the HCG protocol to see what my own body could produce.

I then started a protocol of T-Cream and HCG. Because I started out with lower DHT, the increase of DHT I got from T-Cream was great for libido (as Dr. John says "DHT is the male hormone"). You don't get as big a pop in DHT on injects. So it's important you know your DHT levels - I didn't see this on your test. Always track this, especially when doing cream.

After a month or two of tweaking I'm now pushing 700-800 TT on T-Cream and HCG but I don't get too caught up on TT. It's the Free T you want to focus on. Shippen uses a chart that calculates Free T by plotting the intersection of TT and SHBG. (JanSz has an online version somewhere). Because Shippen cut my SHBG in half with low dose Danazol, my Free T is 4-5x higher than when I started and I feel great. Took 5 months.

BTW, I don't use an AI either as my E has never really budged from 20-22. But I do use DIMM every day.

Looking at what you posted I would have 2 concerns:

1.) I don't like to comment on other people's doses but your dose of 30mg ED seems WAY too low if you are talking compounded cream. I started at 140mg and am now at 180mg. Are you sure you are at 30mg??

2.) Will your doc consider "maintenance" HCG after the TRT has shut down your natural production??

Good luck.

Chart here, post #41

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jan-s-bloodtest-2.html

Your low E2.
Loudly thinking,
supposedly when taking DHEA,
in men it converts to estrogens
im women it converts to testosterone

try it, you may like it.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Most docs, even the best like Dr. John and my doc (Shippen) start TRT patients out on cream first, then move on to injects if necessary. You're just 6 weeks into it. When I was only 6 weeks into it I hadn't even started T yet. I was doing the Clomid test and, later, the HCG protocol to see what my own body could produce.

I then started a protocol of T-Cream and HCG. Because I started out with lower DHT, the increase of DHT I got from T-Cream was great for libido (as Dr. John says "DHT is the male hormone"). You don't get as big a pop in DHT on injects. So it's important you know your DHT levels - I didn't see this on your test. Always track this, especially when doing cream.

After a month or two of tweaking I'm now pushing 700-800 TT on T-Cream and HCG but I don't get too caught up on TT. It's the Free T you want to focus on. Shippen uses a chart that calculates Free T by plotting the intersection of TT and SHBG. (JanSz has an online version somewhere). Because Shippen cut my SHBG in half with low dose Danazol, my Free T is 4-5x higher than when I started and I feel great. Took 5 months.

BTW, I don't use an AI either as my E has never really budged from 20-22. But I do use DIMM every day.

Looking at what you posted I would have 2 concerns:

1.) I don't like to comment on other people's doses but your dose of 30mg ED seems WAY too low if you are talking compounded cream. I started at 140mg and am now at 180mg. Are you sure you are at 30mg??

2.) Will your doc consider "maintenance" HCG after the TRT has shut down your natural production??

Good luck.

Where is your free test level?

 

[dougfl]

Namtrag, I would really look into the estrogen issue. It was not until I added Armidex that I really started to FEEL good. I felt good at first when I started the shots as my Test levels increased but then my Estrogen went too high and I started feeling poorly again, once I added Armidex .50mg EOD that I got my E2 under control and started FEELING and LOOKIN great! AI is very important with TRT especially when you have to take higher doses of Test to reach the upper levels of the normal range. It is with the addition of an AI that you will start to feel fantastic and get all of the benifits of your treatment like loosing body fat and increasing lean muscle mass. Always go by your blood work, that and how you feel almost always go hand in hand. GOOD LUCK.

 

[OldGator]

Where is your free test level?

150-160 pg/ml.
Started at 39 pg/ml.

 

[OldGator]

Your low E2.
Loudly thinking,
supposedly when taking DHEA,
in men it converts to estrogens
im women it converts to testosterone
try it, you may like it.

Thanks JanSz. I'll check it out.

It's weird, my T climbs consistently and my E is always around 20-22.

I'm wondering if the Danazol Dr. Shippen prescribed to lower my SHBG also acts as an anti-E.

(Sorry namtrag, not my intention to hijack your thread).

 

[JanSz]

Thanks JanSz. I'll check it out.

It's weird, my T climbs consistently and my E is always around 20-22.

I'm wondering if the Danazol Dr. Shippen prescribed to lower my SHBG also acts as an anti-E.

(Sorry namtrag, not my intention to hijack your thread).

How do you test your E2?

Dr John prefers

Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS (30289X)

I always add
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)

Mostly becaue of this note that Quest posts about this test:
Quest Diagnostics: Test Menu

Clinical Significance:
Much of Estradiol is bound to proteins. The unbound
portion and Estradiol bound to proteins with low affinity
reflect the Free concentration. The Free Estradiol may
better correlate with medical conditions than the Total
Estradiol concentrations

 

[OldGator]

How do you test your E2?

Basic Quest test that you reference.

However, I just did your recommended Genova series (via HAN) which includes the ultrasensitive E, Free E, etc.

I'll shoot you my results when I get them.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

150-160 pg/ml.
Started at 39 pg/ml.

When I first met my doctor free test was somewhere in the mid 20s. It's never been that low since, even when I took a break from therapy. In March I moved to 1000 IUs of HCG EOD or 3500 IUs/week. My last draw revealed free test at 286.

 

[namtrag]

I had a separate free t test at my physical last fall, and it was 12.1 on a scale of 5-21.

After my total T and SHBG were tested recently, I did an online free T calc, and I believe it was around 160.

My Estradiol was at the lower end of the range (21), so I am not thinking that estrogen is the problem. I am still waiting on the DHT result to come back.

 

[OldGator]

1.) I don't like to comment on other people's doses but your dose of 30mg ED seems WAY too low if you are talking compounded cream. I started at 140mg and am now at 180mg. Are you sure you are at 30mg??

2.) Will your doc consider "maintenance" HCG after the TRT has shut down your natural production??

Namtrag, what about these??

 

[OldGator]

In March I moved to 1000 IUs of HCG EOD or 3500 IUs/week. My last draw revealed free test at 286.

That's incredible - good for you.
I only got to about 600 TT/ 100 FT on 1200iu EOD.