HCG always better than clomid?

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    HCG always better than clomid?


    Is HCG always better than clomid (considering effectiveness and sides)? Does clomid produce as much aromatization as HCG?

    P.S. I wish the search function allowed three character searches ie. 'HCG'

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    I think its too simplistic. Not better/worse but different.

    HCG stimulates the Testicles to produce T.

    Clomid causes the Pituitary to release LH (HCG is an LH analog) to produce T.

    In one ways Clomid would seem superior in that it preserves more of the natural hormonal cascade by stimulating earlier in the process.

    Clomid is not seen as a permanent treatment. It can be used to try to restart HPTA, but AFAIK it is not a multi-year treatment. It's designed to get your body going again on its own.

    HCG on the other hand could be a permanent treatment for those whose bodies cannot produce enough LH.

    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkLA View Post
    Clomid causes the Pituitary to release LH (HCG is an LH analog) to produce T.
    In this regard, it seems better to try clomid first, because HCG would suppress your natural LH.

    Thanks for the info!
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeanGuy View Post
    In this regard, it seems better to try clomid first, because HCG would suppress your natural LH.

    Thanks for the info!
    That is an off hand, but good common sense approach.

    The problem is,
    we have not seen one person yet being succesful while trying Clomid.

    In the past there was few threads discussing this, full of hope, no positive end results.

    Possibly steroid users are succesful while cycling, couple times, after which, then they are not succesful.


    This is about grown up men.
    When used for undeveloped children, possibly different story.
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    I have varicocele-induced hypogonadism (as far as I know). I'm scheduled for v repair surgery tomorrow, and will try clomid to restart as soon as I'm healed. If that fails, I'm probably stuck with test & HCG shots for life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeanGuy View Post
    I have varicocele-induced hypogonadism (as far as I know). I'm scheduled for v repair surgery tomorrow, and will try clomid to restart as soon as I'm healed. If that fails, I'm probably stuck with test & HCG shots for life.
    Just be gratefull that you have a choice.
    Our fathers and grandfathers were stuck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeanGuy View Post
    Is HCG always better than clomid (considering effectiveness and sides)? Does clomid produce as much aromatization as HCG?
    As far as "effectiveness", maybe this is helpful:
    Under a doctor's care (well known here) I did the "clomid protocol" for several weeks and my total test went from my baseline of mid- 300's to 535.
    Afterward I was put on the HCG protocol (600iu EOD) which I have been doing for the last 2 months and my total test (last week BW) was 680.
    I'm not sure if my total test # would have continued to rise had I continued with the clomid but as soon as my doc saw my body was "receptive" I stopped the clomid and went on the HCG.
    He only uses clomid as a "test" and doesn't use it longterm (though I really don't know why).
    As far as aromatization, my E only tested between 15-22 on both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    As far as "effectiveness", maybe this is helpful:
    Under a doctor's care (well known here) I did the "clomid protocol" for several weeks and my total test went from my baseline of mid- 300's to 535.
    Afterward I was put on the HCG protocol (500iu EOD) which I have been doing for the last 2 months and my total test (last week BW) was 680.
    I'm not sure if my total test # would have continued to rise had I continued with the clomid but as soon as my doc saw my body was "receptive" I stopped the clomid and went on the HCG.
    He only uses clomid as a "test" and doesn't use it longterm (though I really don't know why).
    As far as aromatization, my E only tested between 15-22 on both.
    Gator, will you now be on hCG for the rest of your life (or at least until something better comes along) or is it something that hopes to be a cure of sorts?

    The reason I ask is when I look at secondary hypogonadism treatment on the web, the protocols usually allow for a year's worth of use. And I have to wonder what in the heck do they expect to happen after the year's up? That the pituitary will suddenly remember how to produce LH??
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Gator, will you now be on hCG for the rest of your life (or at least until something better comes along) or is it something that hopes to be a cure of sorts?
    Rick,
    Not to detour from LeanGuys thread here, but I'll be happy to answer that. I'm 51. My combination of low total test and high SHBG combined for a free test of about 45 per my docs chart - horrible by any measure and I felt it - for years. Since I started the protocol my free T is now about 130, still not perfect (doc wants to see around 250) but 3x higher and getting better. Most importantly I feel SO much better. Libido, energy, everything. It really was a life changer for me. I just wish I started sooner! I can't wait to see how good I'll feel if I can come close to the 250! But to answer your question -yeah this will be a lifelong endeavor and someday I may have to add some depo T to the mix but, as my doc says, "you can stop anytime and go back to feeling the way you did before". No thanks!! A little prick on the side of my stomach EOD is a small sacrifice for feeling so good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Just be gratefull that you have a choice.
    Our fathers and grandfathers were stuck.
    Our fathers and grandfathers had generally higher testosterone levels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Rick,
    Not to detour from LeanGuys thread here, but I'll be happy to answer that. I'm 51. My combination of low total test and high SHBG combined for a free test of about 45 per my docs chart - horrible by any measure and I felt it - for years. Since I started the protocol my free T is now about 130, still not perfect (doc wants to see around 250) but 3x higher and getting better. Most importantly I feel SO much better. Libido, energy, everything. It really was a life changer for me. I just wish I started sooner! I can't wait to see how good I'll feel if I can come close to the 250! But to answer your question -yeah this will be a lifelong endeavor and someday I may have to add some depo T to the mix but, as my doc says, "you can stop anytime and go back to feeling the way you did before". No thanks!! A little prick on the side of my stomach EOD is a small sacrifice for feeling so good.
    If you are using transdermal T that mean you will have very high DHT.

    The chart is probably similar to this:
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007

    Any good amount of FreeT is a welcome news.
    Better measure would be
    BAT-BioAvailableTestosterone
    with a goal of being on top of range.

    One can find his BAT and FreeT using test from Quest:

    Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
    ------------------------------------------
    example of output of that test, from my last test

    Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
    /------------------------------------ 1151 (250-1100) ng/dL Testosterone Total
    /------------------------------------ 248.5 (46-224) pg/mL Testosterone Free
    /------------------------------------ 456.9 (110-575) ng/dL Testosterone Bioavailable
    /------------------------------------ 26 (17-54) nmol/L SHBG
    /------------------------------------ 4.0 (3.6-5.1) g/dL Albumin, serum

    I have increased my T dose slightly since that test.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I have increased my T dose slightly since that test.
    Jeez, high enough don't you think??

    Anything over 1000 and I'd be ecstatic!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeanGuy View Post
    Jeez, high enough don't you think??

    Anything over 1000 and I'd be ecstatic!!
    Agree, any T is better than low T.

    Looking at their TotalT is most often a trap many fall in.

    It is important, specially for those of us who he little higher SHBG to not get excited, they need that higher TT.

    Bottom line is BAT from Quest.
    If one cant do tests at Quest,
    bottom line is (TT & SHBG) and look up at the chart to see that
    FreeT(250-300)
    --------------------------------------------------
    The above is for someone who supply external T.

    Naturally FreeT over 160 is good, but it have to be from chart,
    not assayed.
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    Do you have a doctor's request for Quest? I was reading on their site and it seems like you can't just walk in and order tests yourself?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeanGuy View Post
    Do you have a doctor's request for Quest? I was reading on their site and it seems like you can't just walk in and order tests yourself?
    To do tests at Quest one have to have doctors script.
    To get reimbursment from insurance doctor have to put on that script diagnostic codes, ICD-9.

    I get my script from my doc.

    To make life easy on my doc, which is just about the only way to get his cooperation, I have to save his time.
    He have high volume practice.
    If it takes lots of time, I may not get it.

    Whe time comes that I want to do blood test,
    I make a list of requested tests, on the bottom of that list I put my ICD-9 codes.
    I e-mail that list to his nurse.
    When I am in his office asking for script,
    nurse prints it out on his office stionary, hi signs it,
    I am out the door in 2 minutes.
    .
    .
    Labs like Quest or LabCorp are also trying to stream line doctors work, for their own reasons.
    Stay away from those forms that want doctor to use.
    You will newer get the wery special tests that are on my list.
    .
    .
    If you do not have cooperating doctor,
    LEF.org is selling prescriptions
    The tests are then done at LabCorp
    In this case preplanning is important.
    Sometimes, I think June- August they have sale.
    Some people are bying multiple scripts planning tests for the whole year.
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    Here is a study on clomid being useful. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum
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    Quote Originally Posted by tartaros View Post
    Here is a study on clomid being useful. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum
    When trying to boost testosterone endogenously, why wouldn't one use both clomid and hcg together?
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    Clomid has side effects and should not be used long term. Clomid masks some effects of E but does not lower E. Anastrozole/Arimidex lowers E and has no side effects and can be used forever. If there are negative effects, you are taking your E too low. Some [few/rare] need to take 1/4 or 1/8th the expected dose as they are over responders. The typical starting dose for those on TRT is 1mg/week.
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    What about Nolvadex ? I hear it is better than Clomid ....
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckerj View Post
    What about Nolvadex ? I hear it is better than Clomid ....
    Nolvadex has fewer side effects, but that does not mean that one should feel free to use long term.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSman View Post
    Nolvadex has fewer side effects, but that does not mean that one should feel free to use long term.
    Very true. Nolva and clomid are very similar compounds.
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    What is long term ? And what happens when you stop taking it ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckerj View Post
    What is long term ? And what happens when you stop taking it ?
    I will not take it more than 8-12 weeks. The hope is that the HPTA will keep going on its own when your done. I hear you can have an estrogen rebound when stopping, might need to finish it off with an AI like arimidex. It's basically the same as trying to recover from a roid cycle, except I've never used roids. I believe my test levels dropped due to stress. At one point I had two businesses plus a full time job. Made a lot of money... lost a lot of sleep... lost a lot of health... taking it back!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeanGuy View Post
    I will not take it more than 8-12 weeks. The hope is that the HPTA will keep going on its own when your done. I hear you can have an estrogen rebound when stopping, might need to finish it off with an AI like arimidex. It's basically the same as trying to recover from a roid cycle, except I've never used roids. I believe my test levels dropped due to stress. At one point I had two businesses plus a full time job. Made a lot of money... lost a lot of sleep... lost a lot of health... taking it back!!
    Looks like adrenals first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Looks like adrenals first.
    Adrenals are low... I've supplemented DHEA up to high-normal, and take adaptogenics. Thyroid is decent.

    Can low adrenals contribute to low testosterone?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeanGuy View Post
    Adrenals are low... I've supplemented DHEA up to high-normal, and take adaptogenics. Thyroid is decent.

    Can low adrenals contribute to low testosterone?
    define: adaptogenics

    post your FreeT3
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    define: adaptogenics

    post your FreeT3
    adaptogenics: ashwaghanda, rhodiola, licorice root

    TSH=1.7 [0.3-5.6]
    Free T3=3.4 [2.0-4.2]
    Free T4=1.1 [0.87-1.56]

    Besides low T, my main problem is persistent insomnia. This may even be the cause of my low T. I always feel tired, but rarely feel sleepy. Been to several doctors, they can't figure it out and just suggest anti-depressants... nope.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeanGuy View Post
    adaptogenics: ashwaghanda, rhodiola, licorice root

    TSH=1.7 [0.3-5.6]
    Free T3=3.4 [2.0-4.2]
    Free T4=1.1 [0.87-1.56]

    Besides low T, my main problem is persistent insomnia. This may even be the cause of my low T. I always feel tired, but rarely feel sleepy. Been to several doctors, they can't figure it out and just suggest anti-depressants... nope.

    Start with this post, possibly you can get something out of the rest of the thread.
    http://**************.com/forum/show...88&postcount=8

    dr John's board
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    What is the rest of the link Jan ? I would like to check it out as well ....

    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckerj View Post
    What is the rest of the link Jan ? I would like to check it out as well ....

    Thanks
    google for "all things male"
  

  
 

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