methylation question for hardasnails
- 09-25-2007, 03:23 PM
methylation question for hardasnails
hey hardasnails ive been reading alot of your stuff about methylation and different things and think that is where most of my problems lie. No medicines like thyroid adrenals or testosterone supplemention has seem to help me all that much and ive tried each treatment for a long time. i am really intolerant to salycyates in fruits and wine and other things and get a rash on my face and feet after i eat them. I also have a hard time with sulfur things because i thought this was my problem a while ago so i tried some msm and taurine and they made me crazy. I had taurine come up really low on an amino acid urine test as well. My question would be what is the best way to slowly start getting my methylation going so i dont get any detox reactions because im up at school and need to focus but my energy right now is just so poor already. This one doctor i know told me to start taking molybdenum for a few weeks cause that will help me deal with things like Sam-e and b12 and folic acid which all make me react a little.
i know you write alot about the different pathways but does my case ring any bells for a specific pathway that might be blocked and if so what kind of supplements do you think will help that. Im ony 21years old so i am really hoping to figure this stuff out been dealing with it for 4 years now. Hope to hear from you
- 09-25-2007, 10:25 PM
most bodybuilders under stress respond good to sam-e. If methayation is a problem then idenitify it with proper testing. MY methyation problem stemmed from magneisum defiency from too much ECA and excessive calcium due to amount of protein drinks I consumed. When i figured out the ratio of CA/mg it was like 15 to 1 and never even knew it this caused excessive cortisol which further depelted magneisum, zinc levels and also caused e2 to rise, along with inuslin resistance (shbg was 10).First of all look at alkaline phospotase if it is below 60-70 then look to thyroid /adrenal, magneisum, zinc as problems. List up your complete blood work and see what we can see. Rash is histmaine response from undermethyation because it can not detoxify them and they build up. If you have reaction from wine then molybdenum will help sulfization pathways. Right now my freind you are low on gluthione and that needs to be checked via lvier detoxificaton profile from great smokies to see where liver pathways are blocked.
Focus on identify altered pathways in liver will retifcy probably 60-80 % of peoples illness and hormonal imbalnaces. With out methyation working properly your aging cellular very rapidly and detoxifcation is impaired as well as adrneals and thyroid..Check spectracell testing for minerals that found alot of my problems and pointed out alot of hidden estrogen imbalnaces later verified by estroesccence test. If you are undermethyated bank on estrogen metabolism being back logged as well in methaytion of bad estrogens
09-25-2007, 10:52 PM
hey thanks for the reply, dont understand alot of it and i dont really have access to my tests and stuff because im at school but i dont eat tuna and am not around any toxins. My e2 is normal at 25 with an shbg of about the same. Im not a bodybuilder jsut a guy who feels really tired and foggy All this started after a mono virus and surgery which i think must have done me in around 5 years ago.
I know that zinc in the past has really helped me with brain fog and energy and sam-e as well but the thing with sam-e is that when i take it i dont feel good but when i stop it i think it helped me and i actually feel better stopping it. I think i need to find a way to build up my body with things like b12, folic acid molybdnum and tmg and then start with low dose sam-e and build it up. I dont really have access to labs to do tests now so what would you recommed to someone like me who is sensitive to sulfur but i think that is what i really need. Basically what is the best to do for undermythelation without having to go through some die-off period to feel better because i cant go through that now. thanks hardasnails
09-27-2007, 08:28 AM
09-27-2007, 09:52 AM
1.toxins - xeno estrogens (plastics water, gase fumes, NON alcoholic livers known as nash)
2.estrogens (altered 2/16 ratio) are primary suspects or even low estrogens
3. mineral defiecny zinc, mmolybdenum, magnesium, choline,
4. identify where in homocysteine cycle it is (Methione synthase or CBS)
5. gut absorption problems dybiosis -leaky gut
1. urine AMINOs look for higher levels of cysteine and markers of folate or b-12 defieincy.
2. neurotranmistters low serotonin, dopamine levels, high histamines
3 copper imbalnces - hidden or bound copper.
4. replenish good bacterial and heal intestinal wall
Do not just shot gun stuf have valid reason. My supplement program is based on spectra-cell mineral testing, genova hormone urine testing, cortisol salvia, quest blood tests.
I take only what is needed and if i can cut things out each time i making progress.
Look for low alkaline phosphotase as guide to adrenals and also manegieum, zinc, progestrone defiency, estrogen imbalnaces
09-28-2007, 06:15 PM
really appreciante your help hardasnails.. i just have one more question. It is true i have issues with copper, i had a hair analysis done once and it showed off the charts copper and i dont swim or doing anything that would cause copper to be in my hair. Ive taken zinc for a while for that. It know i have methylation problems at the heart of my issues. I just seems like when i take stuff like sam-e or sulfur or any of the b12 folic acid stuff i dont do well. Is this die-off. I am interested in your take on the cbs pathway. I took molybdnum the other day and actually felt pretty good which i couldnt understand but reading more, it seems like if you have something wrong with your cbs pathway you cant really do much methylation stuff or you might get worse..is that true?? If it is true, what is the best way to take care of that before doing methylation stuff. I also do have low taurine and high ammonia which my doctors couldnt understand and also go along with this. I know molybdnum is good but is there anything else that helps with this thing. Sorry for all the questions.. just feeling crappy now and need something to feel better. I hear epson salt baths are good too. Thanks for your help.
09-28-2007, 07:24 PM
where estrogen goes so does copper. People with high copper hair may be showing a copper dump from high zinc levels so that may be a good thing. moly helps making copper usable to the body. Manganese, moly, zinc, vitamin C for copper chelation.
where is your homocysteine levels, serum b-12, folic acid?
if serum folate and b-12 are high then you have methyation problems converting zinc is needed for methy b-12 top be formed. urine amino acid test will will identify where the blockage in the methyation is. Examine insulin levels since this increases the MS pathway. Estrogens increase CBS and suppress MS pathways. I suspect high estrogen levels check e1,e2,e3 via urine testing and then verify with e2 serum.
for CBS pathway
600 mgs NAC
50 mgs P5P BID
400 mgs magnesium BID
moly 500 mcg
methyl b-12 5,000 mcgs
folonic acid 4800 mcgs
FOR BHMT pathways
Phosphodyl choline - 98% 300 mgs BID
TMG -500 mgs BID
DMG - not sure
with copper toxicity check for pyrroles - Binding up b-6 and zinc. P5P will over ride this
serum blood sucks for zinc
spectracell mineral testing caught my hidden deficiency and hair anayalsis was DEAD ON with problems
except cell membrane imbalnces EPA/AA ratio if methyation is a problem, with out methyation PC can not be formed affecting acetylcholine levels hence memory
e2 increases Acetycholine levels and depletes choline from cell membrane and releases arachonsinc acid
restore cell membrane fluidity - EFA RBC
check minerals through spectra cell testing.hair
heal leaky gut - will remove stress from liver by plugging the hole that toxins bleed through
balance liver pathways - urine AA and organic acids, liver detoxifcation panel.
check for intestinal dybiosis
where did you get hair sample done at? that makes the biggest difference I only use ine lab ARL no where else..
you need to look at sodium/k ratio ca/mg there is alot of hidden info in there. If your na/k level is low it can also be a copper excess or biounaviable to the body..
09-29-2007, 12:18 AM
awesome thanks..i just have a few more questions..is it true that once i start helping out this help i should start up doing the other pathways with like b12 and folic acid,..but i shouldnt do that until i have fixed this cbs pathway right..or else things will just get worse. I dont have time to get all those tests but i knwow b6 and zinc have always helped me more than any others supps. Sometimes back to normal. My only question would be about the NAC, how does that help with the cbs pathway..and how long does it usually take to get this one going before moving on to the other things and adding in some sulfur components to help detoxify..Really appreciate your help hardasnails..This stuff is pretty tought for me to understand but I am young and if i can fix my body with this stuff rather than hormones and injections, i would SOO rather do it that way. Thanks again
09-29-2007, 09:17 AM
well problem is you need to identify where the block is.
Sam-e gets things going goes into homocysteine then homocystein can be broken down into 3 ways
1.CBS - magnesium, p5p, nac
2. MS - methy b-12, folonic acid
3. BHMT - TMG and PC
problem is to find the hole and plug it.
my hole was in methyation reason being hidden build up of 16 and 4 hydrox and imagnesium,iodine defiency (from not salting my foods for almost 2 decades) causing metabolic blockage and depletion of methyl groups. This was shown with high sarconsine in urine that idenitifed FUNCTIONAL folic acid defiency. I was like WTF i have all this folic acid in my blood but still deficient. Drs were baffled and could not explain it but after dilgenit research it was just telling me I was an undermethyator and nto converting it to its ACTIVE FORM. When I first got sick i pissed out high amounts of xylene and the remedy what glycine even at high dosages it did not work. Upon futher investigation this was idenitfy a screw up in estrogen metabolism and gluthione production. I could not for life of me understand why i felt estrogen dominant but had normal e2 reasdings in the blood.
Point blank people with low iodine levels are undermethyators due to the fact iodine bleeds out th 16 hydrox into estriol if it does not then you get a build up of 16 hydrox and if your can not methyate you get a back log.
Think about it what factors affect cancer
1. alteration of methyation of DNA - CBS and MS, BHMT imbalances due to enviorment, genetics, diet, stress
2. iodine defiency
3. fukd estrogen metabolism -due to enviroment or mineral imbalances
4. alkalinity of the body - goes back to step 1 diet affects DNA polymorphism
So to wrap it up nicely our own lifestyles and how we chose to deal with the issues of today will affect our chances of getting cancer which has been shown to be prevented and even in some cases reversed through life style changes and nutritional intervention
Why i mainly emphassis
1. slow down enjoy life
2. take time out for your self at least 20 minutes 1-2 times a day and just practice belly breathing and clear mind
3. wake up with sun goto bed in dark (no computer after sun goes down)
4. alkaline diet - 80% alkaline 20% acid
5. 1/2 hour or more of sun a day if not up to 4000 ius vitamin D in the winter time starting in september and get vitamin D levels check should be about 60 or higher for optimal health
6. find a job that you enjoy and can look forward to every day.
7. have a super being to believe in because faith is a very powerful thing and this aspect of life is very forgotten these days and is one of th emost important...
01-31-2009, 05:00 PM
Hardasnails i seem to be in the same boat as maguire.... im 23 yrs old and my methylation cycle is screwed up. I was put on a high dose of antibiotics with a shot of penecillin 3 yrs ago because of a cut on my foot.. well i felt fine before the antibiotics and shot..but afterward I became extremely tired/liver hurt/ringing in left ear/acne/brain fog ect. The doctors said i was fine and it should go away, it never did.
Ive spent 1000's on acupuncturist,energy healers,herbologists,homeopath ics,nutritionists ect with slight improvement. Until I started to do my research on organs ...mainly liver..since ive had a dull ache there for 3 years. I ordered some ToxGuard Liver PF by Jarrow Formulas...its mostly precursers to glutathione ( b1, b6, folic, b5, NAC, ALA ect.) I took one pill the first night, the next day i could actually think clearly and i had alittle more energy. After a week on one pill a day all my symptoms were down 30%, i was extatic! I upped the dose to 2 pills and got the worst headache of my life, yet this was only on 2 pills and the bottle says 3 a day. I know this probably means im really toxic ( i live on a farm and sprayed pesticides/herbicides all my life so no shock).
Heres my problem.... about 6 weeks ago I ordered some liquid chlorophyll and took 2 doses ... the next day i felt like crap/fatigued/acne... I was like wtf ive been doing soo good and now crappy again. Its like the ToxGuard pills suddenly stopped working, i even took 2 and 3 pills eventually and NO detox reactions. I finally traced it back to the chlorophyll which is really high in copper. I believe the copper screwed up my methylation somehow and the ability to make glutathione .
In an effort to get my cycle running again ive tried
Choline / Inositol
Activated folic acid
Intrinsi B12 folate
Taking these ive noticed a little improvement but not much. The Sam-e makes me sick to my stomach and almost unable to think so I stopped that. Ive read that copper will first expel Molybdenum and Iron.... could a lack of either one of these cause glutathione production from NAC or ALA to be stopped? I know you said get your Amino Acids tested/ Hair analysis/ Liver Detox Profile... I sent in a sample to Analytical Research Labs for my hair a week ago so I should get results this week. There is a website called watershed . net who provides a Vitamin /Mineral / Amino Acid urine test for 79.00..which seems pretty good I think but they only test 15 amino acids is that enough? Im willing to get all the test you suggest because i think methylation is the root of my illness..its the ONLY thing that has helped all my symptoms at once even!
01-31-2009, 05:17 PM
01-31-2009, 05:29 PM
02-01-2009, 03:51 AM
hey hardasnails just need some info you seem to know your stuff very well.
Im 19 years old and have chronic health problems this all started after using injectable anabolics including testosterone, trenbolone, arimidex tablets, and finally DNP at the end of last year. None of them i had much benefit from and none did what they we're suppose to do for my body but just made me very ill. I was also overtraining a lot, overeating, oversupplementing millions of things. 3 years ago i went from 125kgs (very overweight) to 70kgs underweight then to normal 90kgs. Then 2 years ago i started bodybuilding going from 90kgs to 110kgs at 6"3.
I have had constant shortness of breath for 3-4 months end of later year and doctors didn't know what was happening doing probably 17 blood tests in that time and they found absolutely nothing significant!.
I have high serum folate and B12 but as you say i could be converting this to very little to nil actual folate and B12 in the cells.
Hair mineral analysis i have high mercury levels 2.4 (0.0-0.6), Low manganese, low chromium, near nil cobalt, low molybdenum levels.
IgE levels of 3810 (normal 0-100)
At the moment i have: recurrent feeling of having infections colds/flus and middle ear infections, unexplained dizziness, fatigue chronic at times, low and high blood pressure, reduction in the sense of touch, muscle weakness/soreness (2-3 pushups now is the max i can do before did 30-40). Losing circulation in legs and arms at times, sometimes cold hands ,chest pains, appetite loss and weight loss. Joint clicking and cracking and whole body water retention at times.
I am going for DNA testing to see how well my DNA is being replicated and then to try to restore this with proper nutrition supplements. Awaiting results for immune function test (t cell substrates), blood culture, blood mercury and 24 hour urinary mercury levels and whole blood histamine.
Numerous Autoimmune testing was all negative.
I also have mild chronic gastritis. Naturopaths have said i have systemic candida infection causing all my symptoms. When i went to see a chinese herbalist he said my problem was with liver and kidneys and toxins because the immune system is weak and gave me pills which on the bottle says "to improve peripheral circulation".
Planning on doing the NutrEval Plus test or the ONE test which has the organic acids, metabolic analysis and oxaditive stress panel.
Im aware the amino acid urine test will be the best thing to see where the undermethylation is occuring.
Their is a lot more info here to sift through and i have TOONES more blood tests etc i dont want to waste your time just need some core information. I tried to PM you but you cannot be Pm'ed so let me kno any info thank you.
And my apologies for hijacking this thread maguire.
Last edited by MetalMX; 02-01-2009 at 03:55 AM. Reason: xchange
02-01-2009, 11:45 AM
02-02-2009, 12:46 AM
So technically if i would want to find out what is lacking to get my methylation ..and glutathione back up to par to deal with toxins. I could just get a complete amino acid test as long as i know what to look for, and skip the Liver Detoxification profile test for now...right? Because I dont know if I could even handle the Tylenol/ Advil (which is required for the Liver Detox test) slowing down my phase ll anymore right now.
Any input is helpful.
02-02-2009, 02:39 AM
I am trying to do the NutrEval Plus but dont think it is available to me here in australia. It would be the best thing.
The NutrEval profile is the most comprehensive evaluation available to help overcome chronic disease and promote optimal health. The profile consists of Metabolic Analysis, Amino Acid, Essential and Metabolic Fatty Acids, Oxidative Stress, Nutrient & Toxic Elements and FACTest™.
ANALYTE LIST: HomocysteineCitramalic AcidIndoleacetic AcidVitamin DFACTestMetabolic Analysis ProfileOxidative StressAmino Acids urineEssential & Metabolic Fatty AcidsElemental Analysis (packed RBC)
Turn Around Time: 14 Days
Specimen Requirements: 1 x first morning urine, 1 x 10ml EDTA (2 x 10ml Plus Profile only), 1 x 5ml EDTA, 1 x 10ml serum (samples must be centrifuged, separated and frozen within 30 minutes of blood draw), 1 x 10ml Lithium heparin, 1 x 10ml Sodium heparin (samples must be centrifuged, separated and refrigerated within 30 minutes of blood draw)
Im unable to do the NutrEval sicne im in australia i can do the ONE (Optimal nutritional evaluation) which includes organic acids, amino acids and oxidative stress analysis. 3 Tests in one.
To find out how your methylation is going you'd want to do the urine amino acids test and organic acids. And to find out how your body is dealing with toxins the oxidative stress analysis
02-02-2009, 06:01 PM
02-03-2009, 01:24 AM
But intrepeting it is the most challenging part and then coming up with a game plan
I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
02-03-2009, 07:28 AM
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