Help Needed: Bloodwork 1year post HPTA Restart after HRT

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    Help Needed: Bloodwork 1year post HPTA Restart after HRT


    I have started a log a year ago on Meso-Rx to restart my HPTA after HRT. Here's a brief history from that thread:

    Background:
    40 year old bodybuilder. A year ago I was on HRT taking AndroGel, HCG, and Arimidex for the previous year and a half during which I had done a low dose cycle of Test Enth and EQ. Before then, I had cycled AAS off and on for 2.5 years. As you see; my Hypogonadism is AAS induced.

    June 24th 2006:
    I have decided to stop all form of HRT and go clean by doing a PCT that includes HCG, Clomid and Nolvadex with the help of Dr. John. I went through some horrible times when my testosterone levels plummeted to 68. However, the restart protocol worked and my bloodwork came back as following:

    ****************************** ****************************** ***********

    Oct 6, 2006(Three weeks after last intake of Nolvadex exactly)

    LH ---> 4.8 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
    FSH ---> 1.5 --- (1.4 - 18.1)
    Testosterone serum ---> 300 --- (241 - 827) -- Major improvement from 68 pre PCT...
    Testosterone free ---> 4.60 --- (8.7 - 25.1) -- Still below range
    Testosterone bioavailable ---> 110 --(unknown range as I figured it with a calculator on the web)
    DHEA ----> 97 --- (120 - 520)
    E2 ----> 7 --- (3 - 70)

    Everything else was in range.

    ****************************** ****************************** ***********

    I got excited to realize I was on my way to recovery. So I decided to run a new panel 7.5 weeks later to monitor my progress; hence the following blood work:

    ****************************** ****************************** ***********

    Nov 29, 2006 (7.5 weeks after since Oct 6)

    LH ---> 4.1 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
    FSH ---> 2.0 --- (1.4 - 18.1)
    Testosterone serum ---> 286 --- (241 - 827)
    Testosterone free ---> 6.32 --- (8.7 - 25.1) -- Climbing up but still below range
    Testosterone bioavailable ---> 142 --(unknown range as I figured it with a calculator on the web)
    DHEA ----> 111 --- (120 - 520)
    E2 ----> 7 --- (3 - 70)

    ****************************** ****************************** *************

    I got disappointed with the numbers. Shortly after I crashed again in Jan. I decided to do a small test to measure total T. It came back 246 (241 - 827).. At that point, I decided to do some Nolvadex for a few months but didn't run bloodwork again. Shortly afterwards I started feeling very normal in all aspects of my life including libido etc... Just recently I decided to run some bloodwork to see where I am. Here are the latest results:

    ****************************** ****************************** *************

    Aug 30, 2007

    Testosterone Serum ----> 328 ----- (241-827)
    Testosterone Free ------> 8.5 ------(6.8 - 21.5)

    ****************************** ****************************** *************

    Despite the fact that I'm feeling alright, I am disappointed with my latest numbers as I thought that after such a long time, they would look alot better.

    Notes:

    As you can see my free test is steadily going up over time; at a snail's pace however. I hope that's a positive sign.

    My DHEA has been pretty low, and although I have not measured it lately, I predict it to still be low as I have NOT supplemented with DHEA per Dr. John's request. My fear is messing up my HPTA by supplementing with DHEA.

    Before doing the PCT protocol; and when my test levels were 68, my Total Estrogen measured high at 116 at a range of (40 - 115)... Dr. John has dismissed this test as invalid.

    Note that despite the fact that my Total Estrogen is high, my E2 is low.

    Goals:

    My goal is to figure out what's needed to get my levels up and eliminate the need to go back on TRT ever. I have a feeling it's a matter of time and figuring out what's getting in the way.

    My Questions:

    What do you guys think I can do at this point??

    Do you think supplementing with DHEA in order to replenish my levels will solve my issue? or hurt me?

    Do you think my high Total Estrogen has something to do with problem?

    Do you think another round of Nolvadex would help? My feeling is "no."


    BTW; here's my original thread at Meso_Rx ---> My PCT Journal to kickstart HPTA post HRT - Anabolic Steroids and Bodybuilding

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAk View Post
    I have started a log a year ago on Meso-Rx to restart my HPTA after HRT. Here's a brief history from that thread:

    Background:
    40 year old bodybuilder. A year ago I was on HRT taking AndroGel, HCG, and Arimidex for the previous year and a half during which I had done a low dose cycle of Test Enth and EQ. Before then, I had cycled anabolic steroids off and on for 2.5 years. As you see; my Hypogonadism is AAS induced.

    June 24th 2006:
    I have decided to stop all form of HRT and go clean by doing a post cycle therapy that includes HCG, Clomid and Nolvadex with the help of Dr. John. I went through some horrible times when my testosterone levels plummeted to 68. However, the restart protocol worked and my bloodwork came back as following:

    ****************************** ****************************** ***********

    Oct 6, 2006(Three weeks after last intake of Nolvadex exactly)

    LH ---> 4.8 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
    FSH ---> 1.5 --- (1.4 - 18.1)
    Testosterone serum ---> 300 --- (241 - 827) -- Major improvement from 68 pre PCT...
    Testosterone free ---> 4.60 --- (8.7 - 25.1) -- Still below range
    Testosterone bioavailable ---> 110 --(unknown range as I figured it with a calculator on the web)
    DHEA ----> 97 --- (120 - 520)
    E2 ----> 7 --- (3 - 70)

    Everything else was in range.

    ****************************** ****************************** ***********

    I got excited to realize I was on my way to recovery. So I decided to run a new panel 7.5 weeks later to monitor my progress; hence the following blood work:

    ****************************** ****************************** ***********

    Nov 29, 2006 (7.5 weeks after since Oct 6)

    LH ---> 4.1 --- (1.5 - 9.3)
    FSH ---> 2.0 --- (1.4 - 18.1)
    Testosterone serum ---> 286 --- (241 - 827)
    Testosterone free ---> 6.32 --- (8.7 - 25.1) -- Climbing up but still below range
    Testosterone bioavailable ---> 142 --(unknown range as I figured it with a calculator on the web)
    DHEA ----> 111 --- (120 - 520)
    E2 ----> 7 --- (3 - 70)

    ****************************** ****************************** *************

    I got disappointed with the numbers. Shortly after I crashed again in Jan. I decided to do a small test to measure total T. It came back 246 (241 - 827).. At that point, I decided to do some Nolvadex for a few months but didn't run bloodwork again. Shortly afterwards I started feeling very normal in all aspects of my life including libido etc... Just recently I decided to run some bloodwork to see where I am. Here are the latest results:

    ****************************** ****************************** *************

    Aug 30, 2007

    Testosterone Serum ----> 328 ----- (241-827)
    Testosterone Free ------> 8.5 ------(6.8 - 21.5)

    ****************************** ****************************** *************

    Despite the fact that I'm feeling alright, I am disappointed with my latest numbers as I thought that after such a long time, they would look alot better.

    Notes:

    As you can see my free test is steadily going up over time; at a snail's pace however. I hope that's a positive sign.

    My DHEA has been pretty low, and although I have not measured it lately, I predict it to still be low as I have NOT supplemented with DHEA per Dr. John's request. My fear is messing up my HPTA by supplementing with DHEA.

    Before doing the PCT protocol; and when my test levels were 68, my Total Estrogen measured high at 116 at a range of (40 - 115)... Dr. John has dismissed this test as invalid.

    Note that despite the fact that my Total Estrogen is high, my E2 is low.

    Goals:

    My goal is to figure out what's needed to get my levels up and eliminate the need to go back on TRT ever. I have a feeling it's a matter of time and figuring out what's getting in the way.

    My Questions:

    What do you guys think I can do at this point??

    Do you think supplementing with DHEA in order to replenish my levels will solve my issue? or hurt me?

    Do you think my high Total Estrogen has something to do with problem?

    Do you think another round of Nolvadex would help? My feeling is "no."


    BTW; here's my original thread at Meso_Rx ---> My PCT Journal to kickstart HPTA post HRT - Anabolic Steroids and Bodybuilding
    A few points.

    1. Notice that your LH is reasonably high for a guy with a TT level of approx. 300. This is a huge RED FLAG that indicates your testicals are not responding to HTPA demand. Remember healthy males 18 - 25 have LH numbers in the 3's and 4's with a TT levels 600 - 800.

    2. Please explain in detail AAS usage. 2.5 years is really not all that long if you were using, and NOT abusing AAS correctly(using proper dosages/proper AI use and proper PCT)

    3. Your DHEA is very low. This is usually a sign for low pregnenolone. I suspect your DHT is probably low. When one has really low DHEA one can assume that one is generally low in all androgenic hormones, ESPECIALLY when one has low E2.

    4. Your E2 is low, EXTREMELY low. This means you do not have an estrogen dominance problem. This is bad. This means that -

    5. Estrogen is not the problem. E2 is not blocking your T receptor sites. You have low, very low T not because of estrogen, but because something in your HTPA is broken. Im thinking hypogonadism. When one has lowish TT and high E2, its an E problem and usually TT can be restored when E2 is put in check.

    6. Do not put a whole lot of stock in FT in general, and the fact that FT went up a little. FT itself is an unreliable assay. TT is more of a benchmark.

    7. I concur with Dr John wanting to put you on DHEA.

    In general, your body is not producing sufficient androgenic hormones. Trying to restart again, with hcG or whatever method, probably is not going to work. I think a last chance effort would be

    Pregnenolone cream, with script, 100mg per day
    DHEA, preferably from lef.org, at 25mg twice a day, taken with fatty foods like liquid fish oil + vit E and peanutbutter.

    Your gonna need a script for preg cream.

    Give that protocol a chance for 8 weeks. DHEA levels take time to recuperate. The DHEA should also help get estrogen up as well. If you don't see significant improvement in overall well being + BW( I would think a TT improvement in at least 200 points) then your gonna have to bite the bullet and go HRT.
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    Hi plymouth... Thank you for taking the time to address my situation. My comments in red below.

    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    A few points.

    1. Notice that your LH is reasonably high for a guy with a TT level of approx. 300. This is a huge RED FLAG that indicates your testicals are not responding to HTPA demand. Remember healthy males 18 - 25 have LH numbers in the 3's and 4's with a TT levels 600 - 800.

    Yes.. I understand your point. However; from researching and reading, I know that LH also works on converting cholesterole to pregnenolone. Therefore, although my LH seems to be too high for my TT, I think my LH is trying to do dual job here in replenishing my DHEA and my TT. Usually the healthy guys with my LH level have have plenty of DHEA. Do you see my point? Do you agree? What I'm trying to convey is that my testes are responding well to my LH. If you recall at one point in my thread, I had blood work done four weeks after my last intake of Testosterone and while on HCG alone. My TT came at 585. This confirmed that my testes are responding well. What do you think?

    2. Please explain in detail anabolic steroids usage. 2.5 years is really not all that long if you were using, and NOT abusing anabolic steroids correctly(using proper dosages/proper AI use and proper post cycle therapy)

    Well... I was going through periods of competing. But, my doses were never crazy. The most I've ever done is 500mg of test enth, 400mg of EQ or Deca. I also have done Tren for a while. However, I used to bridge in between. So, at some points I was on for extended periods. Then when I tried to go off, I crashed badly and was put on HRT for about a year + During HRT, I was doing HCG along the way which in my opinion helped recover my testes.

    3. Your DHEA is very low. This is usually a sign for low pregnenolone. I suspect your DHT is probably low. When one has really low DHEA one can assume that one is generally low in all androgenic hormones, ESPECIALLY when one has low E2.

    Correct; all my androgenic hormones are low. I think my DHEA has crashed so low due to the extended period I was on Test etc... I am thinking that by replenishing my DHEA via supplementation, that would dedicate more of my LH for my testes and would help in the overall production and rise of my levels. Am I on the right track??

    4. Your E2 is low, EXTREMELY low. This means you do not have an estrogen dominance problem. This is bad. This means that -

    5. Estrogen is not the problem. E2 is not blocking your T receptor sites. You have low, very low T not because of estrogen, but because something in your HTPA is broken. Im thinking hypogonadism. When one has lowish TT and high E2, its an E problem and usually TT can be restored when E2 is put in check.

    I am hoping that what's broken is my sever lack of adequate DHEA rather than my HPTA. The HCG test confirmed to me that my testes are firing adequately. What's your opinion?

    6. Do not put a whole lot of stock in FT in general, and the fact that FT went up a little. FT itself is an unreliable assay. TT is more of a benchmark.

    7. I concur with Dr John wanting to put you on DHEA.

    In general, your body is not producing sufficient androgenic hormones. Trying to restart again, with hcG or whatever method, probably is not going to work.
    I agree...

    I think a last chance effort would be

    Pregnenolone cream, with script, 100mg per day
    DHEA, preferably from lef.org, at 25mg twice a day, taken with fatty foods like liquid fish oil + vit E and peanutbutter.

    Your gonna need a script for preg cream.

    Give that protocol a chance for 8 weeks. DHEA levels take time to recuperate. The DHEA should also help get estrogen up as well. If you don't see significant improvement in overall well being + BW( I would think a TT improvement in at least 200 points) then your gonna have to bite the bullet and go HRT.
    I hope and pray that I won't have to go on HRT. I will try to obtain a script for pregnenolone cream and I've already started back on DHEA. Do you think 25mg twice a day? Dr. John said 25mg/day is sufficient.. I just don't want the stuff to convert to estrogen much.
    Again; I appreciate your help Plymouth.
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    I was on DHEA pills for couple of years.
    350mg/day, I was not able to raise my blood DHEAs by much.

    When I added 1gram prescription compounded pregnenolone cream, 100mg/1gram, my DHEas went 3x over the range.

    One never knows how you will respond to DHEA pills, so keep in mind that there is DHEA in cream available.

    After I got blood test with my DHEAs over the range I stopped all DHEA pills, just kept the preg cream.
    I had blood drawn last Thursday, will post results when they come.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I was on DHEA pills for couple of years.
    350mg/day, I was not able to raise my blood DHEAs by much.

    When I added 1gram prescription compounded pregnenolone cream, 100mg/1gram, my DHEas went 3x over the range.

    One never knows how you will respond to DHEA pills, so keep in mind that there is DHEA in cream available.

    After I got blood test with my DHEAs over the range I stopped all DHEA pills, just kept the preg cream.
    I had blood drawn last Thursday, will post results when they come.
    Hi Jan... Thank you for your input. I have an appt. tomorrow to try to get the pregnenolone cream. I hope that your blood results come back positive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAk View Post
    Hi Jan... Thank you for your input. I have an appt. tomorrow to try to get the pregnenolone cream. I hope that your blood results come back positive.
    Your doc can call pharmacy with the script.
    800. 279. 5708
    You should get it in 2-3 days, they will send you a bill with product.
    Ask doctor to write script for 2grams/day even thou you most likely will be using 1gram/day.
    You will get 1 month supply 2x30=60grams
    It is not about more product (also important), you will get it in better container.
    If you like the product (like I do) then you call them for re-fill (after paying the bill first).
    I ordered all the re-fills at one time, big saving on shipping charges.
    --------------
    If you find better price, please let me know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Your doc can call pharmacy with the script.
    800. 279. 5708
    You should get it in 2-3 days, they will send you a bill with product.
    Ask doctor to write script for 2grams/day even thou you most likely will be using 1gram/day.
    You will get 1 month supply 2x30=60grams
    It is not about more product (also important), you will get it in better container.
    If you like the product (like I do) then you call them for re-fill (after paying the bill first).
    I ordered all the re-fills at one time, big saving on shipping charges.
    --------------
    If you find better price, please let me know.
    Jan... I was planning on getting my local pharmacist prepare this for me. He's pretty competent and I trust him. I've already talked with him and I'm very confident with him. He's just waiting on my Dr. Script. This way I can have my insurance pay for it. Is there any advantage to ordering from the above number?
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    Plymouth... Here's an old post from last year (7-26-2006) during which I was running HCG + serms. It shows that my testes have responded well.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigAk View Post
    Day 15:

    Moment Of Truth

    I have just got off the phone with the lady who relayed my bloodwork results to me. I have to say that this is one of the happiest moments I'm feeling right now..

    Results:

    Total T == 583 on a scale of (241-827)
    Free T == 14.6 on a scale of (8.7-25.1)

    Now remember; I have been off of external test since June 24 and that was at only 200mg of test enth. That's four weeks and three days since then. This leads me to believe that my testes have been responding to the HCG and been keeping me up. Or else, my levels would have dipped down low after this long out of my last shot. Do you all agree on this ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I was on DHEA pills for couple of years.
    350mg/day, I was not able to raise my blood DHEAs by much.

    When I added 1gram prescription compounded pregnenolone cream, 100mg/1gram, my DHEas went 3x over the range.

    One never knows how you will respond to DHEA pills, so keep in mind that there is DHEA in cream available.

    After I got blood test with my DHEAs over the range I stopped all DHEA pills, just kept the preg cream.
    I had blood drawn last Thursday, will post results when they come.
    Good post JansZ

    In actuality, one should try the pills first, preferably threw LEF. Why? Because DHEA ideally, and best, needs to be dosed 2 times a day. This is why we should try pills first. Take as I noted above.

    Preg cream will help situation.
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    I just have one question, what is your cholesterol like? Is it really low as well?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I just have one question, what is your cholesterol like? Is it really low as well?
    As of 8/10/06

    Cholesterol, Total --- 156 --- (100 - 199)
    Triglycerides -----98 ------(0 - 149)
    HDL -------49 ---- (40 - 59)
    VLDL -------20 ----(5 - 40)
    LDL ------- 87 -----(0 - 99)
    LDL/HDL ratio ----- 1.8 ---- (0 - 3.6)
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    hmm not that then. low LDL can contribute to low hormone levels, but then again serum cholesterol is just whats in bloodstream, doesn't give the total picture of internal conversion of fats to cholesterol that get used throughout the day.

    It was worth a shot anyhow I agree tho that the test levels don't actually look bad, its higher than mine at 38 without having done AAS's.... I need to get it tested again this year
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAk View Post
    I hope and pray that I won't have to go on HRT. I will try to obtain a script for pregnenolone cream and I've already started back on DHEA. Do you think 25mg twice a day? Dr. John said 25mg/day is sufficient.. I just don't want the stuff to convert to estrogen much.
    Why ? Was HRT so bad for you ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I was on DHEA pills for couple of years.
    350mg/day, I was not able to raise my blood DHEAs by much.

    When I added 1gram prescription compounded pregnenolone cream, 100mg/1gram, my DHEas went 3x over the range..
    Jan... Did the increase of your dhea also cause your TT to increase?

    I am really hoping that by bringing my dhea levels up, all my low hormones would go up including TT. As of now, everything is in low normal range; TT, FT, E2, Progesterone, DHT, etc...
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAk View Post
    Jan... Did the increase of your dhea also cause your TT to increase?

    I am really hoping that by bringing my dhea levels up, all my low hormones would go up including TT. As of now, everything is in low normal range; TT, FT, E2, Progesterone, DHT, etc...
    Hard to say, most likely not at all.
    Oct 2006(LabCorp)
    Estradiol, sensitive=27pg/mL (3-70)
    TT=932ng/dL(241-827)
    DHT=226 ng/dL(30-85)
    DHEA Sulfate=369ng/dL (42-290)LE’s Optimal Range: 500-640 ug/dL

    I was on 10grams of Androgel and 350mg DHEA
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    April2007(Quest)
    Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive=27pg/mL(10-50)
    TT=456ng/dL(250-1100)
    DHT=143ng/dL(25-75)
    DHEA sulfate=306mcg/dL(25-95)

    I was on 1gram Tcream, 100mg/gram and 350mg DHEA
    also 1gram compounded preg cream 100mg/1gram
    ---------------------------------------------------------
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAk View Post
    Jan... Did the increase of your dhea also cause your TT to increase?

    I am really hoping that by bringing my dhea levels up, all my low hormones would go up including TT. As of now, everything is in low normal range; TT, FT, E2, Progesterone, DHT, etc...
    DHEA is made by the Adrenals, so low DHEA could indicate adrenal fatigue.

    Do you have blood tests and/or saliva tests for cortisol ?

    Also do you have any blood tests for pregnenolone & thyroid (Free T3, Free T4, TSH etc) ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by coz View Post
    DHEA is made by the Adrenals, so low DHEA could indicate adrenal fatigue.

    Do you have blood tests and/or saliva tests for cortisol ?

    Also do you have any blood tests for pregnenolone & thyroid (Free T3, Free T4, TSH etc) ?
    hi Coz... Thanks for your attention.

    I have not done saliva tests for cortisol. I have a doctor appt today at 10am.. Should I ask for that? I have already started on 50mg/day of dhea as of last Wed.

    However, I did have blood work from last year (10/06/2006)
    These were taken at 10:09AM

    DHEA-Sulfate -------- 97 ------ (120 - 520)
    Cortisol ---------21 ------- (3.1 - 22.4)

    ****************************** **********

    and on 11/29/2006

    T4, Free (Direct) ------- 1.04 --------- (0.61 - 1.76)
    DHEA --------- 111 ------- (120 - 520)
    IGF-1 ---------188 ------ (109 - 284)
    TSH --------- 3.193 -------- (0.350 - 5.500)
    Triiodothyronine, Free, Serum -- 3.1 --- (2.3 - 4.2)

    I don't know what these numbers mean in the context of Adrenal fatigue, but I recall asking Dr. Crisler and he just said to go on 25mg/day of DHEA.

    Coz.. I am going to ask my Dr. today for the preg cream and will be taking along 50mg/day of DHEA. What do you think?
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    My AM blood cortisol always tests high above range, however the saliva test showed that my levels were low/below range for the 4 points through the day. If you can, then it may be worth running the saliva tests.

    Do you have any blood tests results for sodium, potassium, aldosterone ?

    Your TSH is also elevated, and Free T3 not in the top of the range - so you could be hypothyroid. It maybe worth checking this too (Free T3, Free T4, TSH at a minumum), especially if you have any sypmtoms of hypo.

    I don't see a problem with supplementing the pregnenolone and DHEA, although I would introduce them one at a time - so you can tell if either is causing any adverse effects. The dosage for DHEA should be split AM & PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by coz View Post
    Do you have any blood tests results for sodium, potassium, aldosterone ? .
    LOL... been waiting for you.

    Potassium, serum ---- 3.9 --- (3.5 - 5.5)
    Sodium, serum ------ 139 ---- (135 - 148)

    do you think 24hr. urine test is as adequate as saliva? or what else should I check for in saliva test besides dhea and cortisol?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAk View Post
    LOL... been waiting for you.

    Potassium, serum ---- 3.9 --- (3.5 - 5.5)
    Sodium, serum ------ 139 ---- (135 - 148)

    do you think 24hr. urine test is as adequate as saliva? or what else should I check for in saliva test besides dhea and cortisol?
    Do you have any salt cravings ? sugar cravings ? Do you get dizzy or light headed if stand up quickly ? Eyes sensitive to light ? How is your blood pressure ?

    The problem with 24hr urine for cortisol is that it tests for the total cortisol over the 24hr period. As cortisol is diurnal through the day - you could be higher at some points and lower at others & this wouldn't show up like the saliva test. Although if your cortisol is low throughout the day - heading towards addisons - then urine would also show it

    From what I've seen saliva tests are useful for cortsiol and DHEA, but I would prefer blood tests over them for alot of other hormones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by coz View Post
    Do you have any salt cravings ? sugar cravings ? Do you get dizzy or light headed if stand up quickly ? Eyes sensitive to light ? How is your blood pressure ?.
    I don't crave salt at all. As a matter of fact, I often think restaurant food is too salty for my taste.

    I don't crave sugar either. I've gotten accustomed over the years to eat very low carbs and never bothered me. BTW; I haven't done low carbs since last year.... been eating like a regular guy.

    When I started my PCT protocol a year ago, I went through a period when I'd get dizzy when I got out of my car for instance. Then that went away but I went through a long period when I'd get very light-headed when I squatted or deadlifted at the gym over 135lb. However, I have not suffered this issue since April. I've been squatting heavy with no issues lately.

    No eye sensitivity to light.

    My blood pressure has been around 130/85 or less than that.

    Anyway... My GP visit went well this morning. He listened to me and agreed to help me. He's ordered the saliva test. However, he's asked me to stop my intake of DHEA until I do the test. After that he'll write me a script for pregnenolone cream and go on from there.

    My question is; let's suppose I have adrenal fatigue, what's the remedy for that?
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    Coz... Were you able to raise your TT after supplementing with DHEA and correcting your Adrenal Fatigue issue? I read some post of yours that showed "yes." But, I can't remember where. Can you catch me up on your status?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAk View Post
    Anyway... My GP visit went well this morning. He listened to me and agreed to help me. He's ordered the saliva test. However, he's asked me to stop my intake of DHEA until I do the test. After that he'll write me a script for pregnenolone cream and go on from there.

    My question is; let's suppose I have adrenal fatigue, what's the remedy for that?
    That's good news, wait and see what the results are.

    Treatment wise - it depends on the severity of the fatigue, but could include specific vits/minerals, DHEA, cortisol (HC, medrol, prednisone etc). The idea there is to rest the adrenals enough to let them heal, then slowly taper off the cortisol. Although some people need to stay on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigAk View Post
    Coz... Were you able to raise your TT after supplementing with DHEA and correcting your Adrenal Fatigue issue? I read some post of yours that showed "yes." But, I can't remember where. Can you catch me up on your status?
    My TT was 21.4nmol/L (8.4-28.7) when last tested in July. That works out to about 620 in the US range.

    I've been taking 10mg novla a day for almost a yr, and TT crept up from 9.4 back then to what it is now. It did this gradually over time.

    I've only started treating adrenals and thyroid 3mths ago, and am still ramping up my thyroid dose. Raised another 1/2 grain a week ago & avg temps are finally increasing.

    Once my adrenals and thyroid are fully supported, and their symptoms dissapearing. Then I will check my TT levels again. Hopefully they have risen - which would prove the negative effect of adrenals/thyroid on TT. Then I'll look into tapering off the novla completely.

    It's been quite a long process...
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    Quote Originally Posted by coz View Post
    My TT was 21.4nmol/L (8.4-28.7) when last tested in July. That works out to about 620 in the US range.

    I've been taking 10mg novla a day for almost a yr, and TT crept up from 9.4 back then to what it is now. It did this gradually over time.

    I've only started treating adrenals and thyroid 3mths ago, and am still ramping up my thyroid dose. Raised another 1/2 grain a week ago & avg temps are finally increasing.

    Once my adrenals and thyroid are fully supported, and their symptoms dissapearing. Then I will check my TT levels again. Hopefully they have risen - which would prove the negative effect of adrenals/thyroid on TT. Then I'll look into tapering off the novla completely.

    It's been quite a long process...
    Coz... I'm so happy that you're doing very well and that you were able to figure out your issues. Hearing your success story gives me hope.

    The Nolvadex will not do anything for me at this point as my E2 is already on the ground.

    I am really hoping that by providing my body with the mother hormones (preg --> dhea) that will resolve my problem. I just can't figure out why it's taking my body so long to ramp up on the DHEA on its own?? I don't doubt at all that I may well have Adrenal Fatigue. It's prob. worth mentioning that in the past when I was competing, I was taking ECA (Ephedrine, Caffiene, Aspirin) for years (about 4 years) everyday. That's in addition to all the harsh contest dieting that I continuously subjected my body to... not to mention the hard core training regimens...... All that for a few stupid trophies.... (I'm feeling like a moron now...)
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    Coz... Did you have good luck with oral DHEA in bumping up your levels?? or did you have to resort to cream?
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    Here's a read on the stages of Adrenal Fatigue, which explains DHEA levels dropping;

    http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_do..._fatigue.cfm#9

    Yeah the oral DHEA increased my levels - verified by blood tests. I also take oral preg - but haven't confirmed its effectiveness with blood tests.
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    Quote Originally Posted by coz View Post
    Here's a read on the stages of Adrenal Fatigue, which explains DHEA levels dropping;

    http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_do..._fatigue.cfm#9

    Yeah the oral DHEA increased my levels - verified by blood tests. I also take oral preg - but haven't confirmed its effectiveness with blood tests.
    There is no way to confirm preg via BW other than comparing it to DHEA.

    The pregnenolone assay is invalid. No ifs ands or butts.

    However, from pouring over hundreds of BW's from tons of people, I have come to the conclusion that DHEA levels and Pregnenolone seem to go hand in hand. As Preg is administered, DHEA goes up in accordance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    There is no way to confirm preg via BW other than comparing it to DHEA.

    The pregnenolone assay is invalid. No ifs ands or butts.

    However, from pouring over hundreds of BW's from tons of people, I have come to the conclusion that DHEA levels and Pregnenolone seem to go hand in hand. As Preg is administered, DHEA goes up in accordance.
    Do you happen to have a link to a study that supports what you are saying?
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    There is no way to confirm preg via BW other than comparing it to DHEA.

    The pregnenolone assay is invalid. No ifs ands or butts.

    However, from pouring over hundreds of BW's from tons of people, I have come to the conclusion that DHEA levels and Pregnenolone seem to go hand in hand. As Preg is administered, DHEA goes up in accordance.
    Do you have a study stating it 's invalid ?

    DHEA is a downstream hormone converted from pregnenolone, so it makes sense it "may" increase with pregnenolone supplementation. HOWEVER, there are multiple pathways the preg could convert - so you can't assume which path it would take, or that it will increase DHEA in every situation.

    http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking...-hormones.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by coz View Post
    Here's a read on the stages of Adrenal Fatigue, which explains DHEA levels dropping;

    http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_do..._fatigue.cfm#9

    Yeah the oral DHEA increased my levels - verified by blood tests. I also take oral preg - but haven't confirmed its effectiveness with blood tests.
    Thanks for the excellent read coz... Now I feel more educated on the subject. I am not sure what stage I'm in... Could be stage 2 or 3.. However, i don't seem to have any of the symptoms:

    Tendency to gain weight and unable to loose it, especially around the waist.
    No
    High frequency of getting the flu and other respiratory
    diseases and these symptoms tend to last longer than usual.
    No
    Tendency to tremble when under pressure.
    No
    Reduced sex drive.
    Yes
    Lightheaded when rising from a laying down position.
    Unable to remember things.
    No
    Lack of energy in the mornings and also in the afternoon between 3 to 5 pm.
    No
    Feel better suddenly for a brief period after a meal.
    No difference
    Often feel tired betweeen 9 - 10 pm, but resist going to bed.
    No
    Need coffee or stimulants to get going in the morning.
    No... but I drink coffee anyway
    Crave for salty, fatty, and high protein food such as meat and cheese.
    No
    Pain in the upper back or neck with no apparent reasons .
    No
    Feels better when stress is relieved, such as on a vacation.
    I have no stress job anyway..
    Difficulties in getting up in the morning
    No
    Lightheaded
    No

    Could it be that I am in the early stages of Adrenal Fatigue?? Why aren't my adrenals producing enough DHEA??
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    Like any condition, you may not experience all the symptoms. If you experience even one, or have a suspicion, then the best thing to do is test for it. So see what your saliva test shows.

    Here's another good read on AF
    http://www.tuberose.com/Adrenal_Glands.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Do you happen to have a link to a study that supports what you are saying?
    Dr John has spoken about the pregnenolone assay lots of times and has come to the conclusion that it is simply invalid.

    Given his extensive work in the field of HRT I will take that as accurate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by coz View Post
    Do you have a study stating it 's invalid ?

    DHEA is a downstream hormone converted from pregnenolone, so it makes sense it "may" increase with pregnenolone supplementation. HOWEVER, there are multiple pathways the preg could convert - so you can't assume which path it would take, or that it will increase DHEA in every situation.

    http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking...-hormones.html
    Well Duh, when it comes to science one can't assume anything.

    But when can make hypothesis' based on what data we have.

    After pouring over countless BW's and such, I have noticed a trend that shows that DHEA and Preg seem to go hand in hand.

    Also note JansZ post above "When I added 1gram prescription compounded pregnenolone cream, 100mg/1gram, my DHEas went 3x over the range"

    This is common amoungst alot. I have NEVER seen anyones BW who had high DHEA have low Preg. NEVER.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    This is common amoungst alot. I have NEVER seen anyones BW who had high DHEA have low Preg. NEVER.
    It would probably be logical also to say that you may never have seen anyone's BW who had high TT with very low DHEA??
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Dr John has spoken about the pregnenolone assay lots of times and has come to the conclusion that it is simply invalid.

    Given his extensive work in the field of HRT I will take that as accurate.
    Good for you.

    I would be more comfortable if I could see some research, preferably from Quest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    After pouring over countless BW's and such, I have noticed a trend that shows that DHEA and Preg seem to go hand in hand.

    This is common amoungst alot. I have NEVER seen anyones BW who had high DHEA have low Preg. NEVER.
    How can you verify their Preg is low if you say the test is invalid ?? So is the preg test valid or invalid in your opinion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    Also note JansZ post above "When I added 1gram prescription compounded pregnenolone cream, 100mg/1gram, my DHEas went 3x over the range"
    This is only part of the picture, what other hormones were also affected ? You need to also think of the preg's effect on the other pathways. And some of them may not be desirable. Eg 100mg of pregnenlone oral will push my progesterone from low range to well above range.

    From memory JansZ was still taking the oral DHEA when he added the preg cream, which he has stopped before his latest blood tests. So that should confirm if it is only the preg that increased his DHEA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by coz View Post
    How can you verify their Preg is low if you say the test is invalid ?? So is the preg test valid or invalid in your opinion ?


    This is only part of the picture, what other hormones were also affected ? You need to also think of the preg's effect on the other pathways. And some of them may not be desirable. Eg 100mg of pregnenlone oral will push my progesterone from low range to well above range.

    From memory JansZ was still taking the oral DHEA when he added the preg cream, which he has stopped before his latest blood tests. So that should confirm if it is only the preg that increased his DHEA.
    Yea, JansZ was taking oral preg for awile at RIDICULOUS amounts that cost wise, is crazy. 350mg per day?

    It was only until he added Preg Cream did his DHEAs go over range.

    Dr J said the test was invalid.

    A rise in progesterone is not always bad - remember prog will lower DHT and further increase T due to DHT feedback mechanisms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAk View Post
    It would probably be logical also to say that you may never have seen anyone's BW who had high TT with very low DHEA??
    Yep, no one above 700 with very low DHEA that is natural, no AAS or HRT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Good for you.

    I would be more comfortable if I could see some research, preferably from Quest.
    JansZ

    It was the countless of tests he ran threw Quest that all came back high is why he came to said conclusion
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    Quote Originally Posted by plymouth city View Post
    JansZ

    It was the countless of tests he ran threw Quest that all came back high is why he came to said conclusion
    Dr. John has come up to the same conclusion about the Total Estrogen Assay as invalid also. That's what he told me. First time we tested my TE it showed it above range even though my E2 was on the ground.... I still have days when my mind goes trying to reason as to why I have low TT, then my high TE flashes in front of my eyes... Then I think nahh.... the TE assay is invalid..
  

  
 

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