Normal Daily Testosterone Production Chart??
05-16-2007 09:29 AM
Normal Daily Testosterone Production Chart??
Hey Guys I've been hitting google and ask.com looking for a chart that would show me what a normal looking curve would be for testosterone production. So far no luck whatsoever. I'm just trying to figure out what kind of a decline one might expect from peak to trough levels, ie. you start with 1000 at 8AM and end up with 500 at 8pm. If someone knows typically how far your test drops in the course of a day and at what rate it drops or has a link to a site or graph I'd love to see it.
05-16-2007 01:32 PM
I have a chart somewhere at home. I will try and look for it. From that I remember, the drop was not at all linear.
05-16-2007 04:51 PM
Thanks Jim, would really love to see it.
05-16-2007 08:40 PM
05-16-2007 10:55 PM
thanks Jim, very imformative
05-16-2007 11:22 PM
this explains why i get wet dreams around 4-6am :bb3:
05-17-2007 03:04 AM
I think its diffrent for everyone, but that chart is good for a basic idea. I remember whenever I was up at about 2-4am I would feel a dopamine rush which now after being on TRT I am pretty sure was a surge in testosterone.
05-17-2007 03:16 AM
Weird! I was just remembering waking up to that feeling, it seemed like such a rush "back in the day." As of lately my free testosterone is low and I don't feel that energetic feeling. I thought maybe I was just nuts, no pun intended.
Originally Posted by ItsHectic
The ramping spike at 8am, which I apparently don't get, may be why I can NEVER get up early. Low energy is a sign of low T, and that is it's highest point!
05-17-2007 08:12 AM
05-17-2007 09:06 AM
Ha-Ha I was looking for that one, yesterday, but got interrupted. I think it's on my home computer. I scanned that from The Testosterone Edge by Brian O'Neill. I like that it distinguishes between younger and older men, as you will notice that the spikes/drops are not as prevelant in senior citizens.
Originally Posted by testosteronet
05-17-2007 11:51 PM
When a hormone is released in a pulse, or injected as with IGF-1, there is a drop in serum levels. But the hormone is docking to receptors in the tissues and is not really as lost as serum levels might suggest. When the receptor gets hit, this begins a process that takes a while to start and complete. So the hormones are only the message, not the action. The benefits are mostly from the changes in cells and the resulting structural and functional changes in tissue made up of cells that have the receptors. T bound to T receptors are on-target, not lost.
Yes some T will be bound to SHBG so that FT is taken out of play.
I have seen it stated that an increase in T levels is an aphrodisiac that suggests a different mode of [fast] action. But perhaps there is an other state of arousal that is the cause and the increase in T is then the effect... or the T might compound the cause whatever that might be.
05-18-2007 07:33 AM
05-19-2007 01:24 PM
so on a standard dosage of HRT would this produce a stable level of test through out the day without the dips and peaks we see with natrual producing folks?
05-19-2007 01:47 PM
Running with the Big Boys
Very true and to do it the right way to have a Blood test done after 2 weeks before application of the gel would tell you how much is your trough and peak be 2 hours later after application. SO that mean 2 blood tests and very expenieive and urine will go around this inconvience
Originally Posted by Dr. John
05-20-2007 01:27 AM
Yes for injections and more so for those few of us who inject EOD. The testosterone esters in oil are a time release mechanism. But the action of weekly or every two week injections is still a large spike and days of low levels... not natural and feels like hell for some?many?most.
Originally Posted by rockstar6181
But the transdermals do deliver a spike of T after the application and the serum levels drop after that. So in that limited regard, transdermals are more natural. Transdermals create higher levels of E (bad) DHT (can be good for libido but bad if you are susceptible to hair loss). Some react well to transdermals and some do not get the desired levels. Some get skin irritation and rashes. Some get great results. Most transdermals are very expensive compared to injectables. Big plus for many is no injections but many should be on HCG which can only be injected. So docs who favor transdermals to avoid injections will have a strong bias against [injecting] HCG and will not be taking care of the issue of shrinking testicles and risks to fertility.
So the point that I am making is that there is no simple aspect to get focused on. I think that a combo of frequent injections with a small dose transdermal in the morning might be a good from the point of view of natural serum levels of T. The morning rise in T might have some important effects on mood, libido and daily rhythm.
05-20-2007 05:17 AM
KSMan - interesting thought on a combination of injections and gel. suppose I were taking 100mg test-c once a week plus HCG 250mg in the two days prior to the injection and wanted to replicate that dose with a different protocol, such as E3D injections + cream +HCG, how does this look:
E3D 30mg Test-c
250mg HCG 1 day prior to injection
2.5g androgel every morning
Would that be too much or a similar dose to what I'm taking now?
05-20-2007 12:04 PM
The 30mg EOD would be 70mg per week.
Originally Posted by user88777
If one absorbed 10% of the transdermal (TD), then that would be 2.5mg/day or 17.5mg/wk. (I am not very familiar with TD dosing, correct me if that is wrong.)
Total is 87.5 or a 12.5% decrease over your 100mg/wk. If the test cyp was 35.5mg E3D, the weekly dose would not change. If you make a change that increases your intake, you will feel that increase which makes evaluation of the intended change hard to evaluate. Unfortunately, the amount of absorption of transdermals is an individual unknown. So it will be hard to control total intake. But I think that small amounts if TD would absorb better than 100%TD.
There was some research showing that 250iu SQ EOD of HCG maintains baseline testicular function. That became the basis of my dosing after I got the research paper to my doc to consider. That increased my total T from 886 to 1025 (16%). So changes to or initiation of HCG can change your levels.
Because the effects of increased E2 can have a very strong or dominant effect over the outcome of TRT, this cannot be ignored. The intent of any trial dosing that we are discussing is to see if that improves one's sense of well-being. That is something that only you can evaluate and blood work provides no guidance except to show if the new method increases or decreases FT, TT, E2, DHT. Even if none of those changed, there could be an effect on the mind from the morning application wave of T from the TD. All of this is highly speculative and would be generally be a safe thing to do. But finding a doc that would agree to the test cyp plus TD might be difficult. A doc may also be highly constrained by HMOs, state medical boards and insurance companies. And some docs do not react well to suggestions from left field and some may perceive such things as 'drug seeking behavior'. To avoid that indication, you might be better off suggesting dosing that has a clear intent of not increasing your total intake. If your TRT is not settled in and there are needs to adjust the dosing to change serum levels of T or E, then any change in that regard can mask the effects of the injection + TD. For example, if you were to start taking an AI to lower E2 and also made the injection + TD change, the effects of the lowered E2 can be very profound and you would have no idea if the injection + TD was doing anything for you.
I think that such individual trials should not be done until everything else is almost perfect. As E2 levels can ruin everything with TRT, I think that E2 levels should be in the optimal range (thought to be 17-20). Then one will be able to respond to and evaluate any potential for improvement. Think of your TRT as an excellent design and injection + TD as a possible polish. There may or may not be any improvement for you as an individual and if it works for you, others may not note any improvement.
Again, E2 can be evil. My TT was around 1000 on test cyp + HCG. I should have felt great. I did not. I had many of the symptoms of a guy with sub range T. Adding AI (aromatase inhibitor) lowered my E2 from 37 to 22. That provided a huge improvement and AI was required to unlock all of the benefits of TRT. Note that at my pre AI TT levels, I was getting good anabolic and androgenic response with loss of fat, muscle gain and increased body hair... I just had no energy, libido low, mood sucked etc. The key to success is not T levels, but a balance of all of the major hormones.
One reason why you need to find a really good doc, is because many docs are not that good (they cannot all be above average). Some will not provide AI no matter what your symptoms are if the E2 levels are inside the normal lab ranges. Those ranges are statistical ranges that also include many men with problems. It is not a range of wellness or normalcy. Some docs then look at your lab work and then will not address any E2 issues that you have. Such docs are not treating your symptoms, but are only treating your lab results. A robot could do that. And some docs will not prescribe HCG as they are of the mind set that you do not need your testicles, even when it is widely accepted that HCG improves mood. There are many barriers for some to getting TRT working right. Many need to advocate for their best interests and we see many needing to find a doctor that understands the bigger picture. So any discussion of anything optimal needs to look at all of these broader aspects as well.
05-20-2007 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by KSman
Very well said. I think your right about E2. As my T levels have surged from 490 to 736 and FT from 18.9 to 23.9, my E2 level remains unchanged, and alot of my symptoms persist.
05-20-2007 05:30 PM
why do a lot of your symptoms presist yet?
dont you want E2 unchanged if T is going up:
05-20-2007 05:55 PM
Nagging joint pain, poor workout recovery, brain fog and energy level still not where I want it. This may also be IGF-1 related as well. Im turning my keys over to Dr John soon and letting him dictate where I go next.
Originally Posted by engival
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