Cenegenics blood work after 2 1/2 months

[Forever Young]

I'm enclosing my latest blood work. I was rather surprised that this was all the testing they did this time. My understanding was that the $500 or so charges for this last test would include all of the initial tests I had done.

I'm currently taking:

.9 IU of HGH per day
Thyroid Armour 1/2 grain per day for 2 weeks, then 1 grain.
Testosterone 80mg weekly
Arimidex .5mg same day as testosterone
HCG 1000 IU (I modified this based on a paper by Dr. John to be 500 IU 1 day & 2 days before Testosterone injection.
1 mg of Proscar per day (maybe should try avodart?)
50 mg of DHEA (off-the-shelf Schiff brand)

Just got my results yesterday, haven't heard back from my doctor yet.

The only reading that I cannot figure out is the Insulin. My doc said the first reading at 61 was an error, that if it were 61 my glucose levels would be down to zero.

But, in this 2nd test, my Insulin is even higher. Two errors in a row? And this is with a 12 hour fast. Can anyone make sense of this reading?

Not really sure, as a layman, what to make of the other levels, but - if I understand any of this - it would seem that the Arimidex is not warranted (Estradiol very low, Testosterone very high).

Maybe that explains a bit of my aggression in the gym? I'm not nearly as patient with folks that sit on a machine resting for 5 minutes. Not nearly.

Well, I'm sure I'll talk to my doc tonight. Very curious what he'll make of this - and certainly looking for any comments from Dr. John!

I've put on about 11 lb of mostly muscle during this time. Was at 6.x% body fat, so I needed to gain. Am at 152 lb at 5' 10". 51 years old.

Live Forever - or die trying (I may be taking my slogan too literally?)

[hardasnails1973]

I'm enclosing my latest blood work. I was rather surprised that this was all the testing they did this time. My understanding was that the $500 or so charges for this last test would include all of the initial tests I had done.

I'm currently taking:

.9 IU of HGH per day
Thyroid Armour 1/2 grain per day for 2 weeks, then 1 grain.
Testosterone 80mg weekly
Arimidex .5mg same day as testosterone
HCG 1000 IU (I modified this based on a paper by Dr. John to be 500 IU 1 day & 2 days before Testosterone injection.
1 mg of Proscar per day (maybe should try avodart?)
50 mg of DHEA (off-the-shelf Schiff brand)

Just got my results yesterday, haven't heard back from my doctor yet.

The only reading that I cannot figure out is the Insulin. My doc said the first reading at 61 was an error, that if it were 61 my glucose levels would be down to zero.

But, in this 2nd test, my Insulin is even higher. Two errors in a row? And this is with a 12 hour fast. Can anyone make sense of this reading?

Not really sure, as a layman, what to make of the other levels, but - if I understand any of this - it would seem that the Arimidex is not warranted (Estradiol very low, Testosterone very high).

Maybe that explains a bit of my aggression in the gym? I'm not nearly as patient with folks that sit on a machine resting for 5 minutes. Not nearly.

Well, I'm sure I'll talk to my doc tonight. Very curious what he'll make of this - and certainly looking for any comments from Dr. John!

I've put on about 11 lb of mostly muscle during this time. Was at 6.x% body fat, so I needed to gain. Am at 152 lb at 5' 10". 51 years old.

Live Forever - or die trying (I may be taking my slogan too literally?)

i love how they have the low range hormones jacked up vs standard charts. Surprise they have not done that with thyroid yet. I had a similar test done but it was CBC and metabolic panel done, lipid profile and its ranges were narrowed which really caught alot of hidden problems that slip through the cracks of standard tests..

[BigJimCalhoun]

I would wonder if you stopped the arimidex what your E2 would be. I am not on arimidex and when my T was 1055, my E2 was 65

[hardasnails1973]

I would wonder if you stopped the arimidex what your E2 would be. I am not on arimidex and when my T was 1055, my E2 was 65

Dht is realitive to insulin sensitivity as well as proper DHEA levels. so dropping the advoert might reside the insulin problem.

[plymouth city]

Be wary of most DHEA as it is usually crap. Pm me and I can send a link to you for better stuff.

[pmgamer18]

I would wonder if you stopped the arimidex what your E2 would be. I am not on arimidex and when my T was 1055, my E2 was 65

Well he needs to stop the arimidex anyway 7 is way to dam low.

[JanSz]

Be wary of most DHEA as it is usually crap. Pm me and I can send a link to you for better stuff.

My mind is set now.
Use of prescription pregnenolone cream 100/1mg, 1gram/day
elevated (finally) my DHEA to 3x over the max range.
I was also taking, as usual 350mg DHEA in pills.
Pills never worked for me for the last few years.
Now I keep pregnenolone but dropped DHEA pills.
If my next test shows any need for DHEA I will ask compounding pharmacy to add DHEA to my pregnenolone cream.

[Forever Young]

Since there's no SHBG drawn, it's not possible to properly evaluate your hormones. But E2 should never be driven that low. And anastrozole has a 5 day half-life, so once-weekly dosing makes no sense. If you are going to take that much HCG, you will need the protection of anastrozole in your system at that time.

What day do you inject on, and what day was the lab draw. VERY important question.

Dr. John - My blood work was taken on Thursday. After blood work on Thurs, I start 500 IU HCG, then 500 on Friday. I inject Testosterone on Sat - and take Arimidex on Sat.

What is lowest acceptable E2? What are effects of having E2 too low? Any documents you would recommend on this?

How is SHBG used to determine proper hormone balance? Is there a document outlining why this is currently state-of-the-art?

Without some kind of research I can read, I end up in a situation where you say one thing, the Cenegenics doc says another, and have no way to evaluate.

My level of fear increases, but not my level of knowledge.

Thanks for taking a look at m levels.

[hardasnails1973]

Dr. John - My blood work was taken on Thursday. After blood work on Thurs, I start 500 IU HCG, then 500 on Friday. I inject Testosterone on Sat - and take Arimidex on Sat.

What is lowest acceptable E2? What are effects of having E2 too low? Any documents you would recommend on this?

How is SHBG used to determine proper hormone balance? Is there a document outlining why this is currently state-of-the-art?

Without some kind of research I can read, I end up in a situation where you say one thing, the Cenegenics doc says another, and have no way to evaluate.

My level of fear increases, but not my level of knowledge.

Thanks for taking a look at m levels.

E2 depends on the person some people can operate at high e2then other because there estogen metabolism is probably alot more efficenct then others. A person who has altered estrogen metabolism may need to have a lower e2 to feel optimal. usually 15-25 e2 seems to be good but it really depends on your shbg. If you shbg is low then you may need a lower then normal e2 to feel good. Its really paitent specific. More so I would look at the e2:T ratio. An optimal range may be 30-50:1, but you need to look at a bunch of other factors its an individual thing !! Personally I would taper off the armidex slowly to .25 and like Dr john said is it really doing any good? Being with e2 of 7 YIKES your joints are probably hutrting and brain fog is starting to get bad. remember e2 is also a strong antixodient and can also raise gluthione levels in your body and protects your brain from aging. Also was well as burns fat and transports fat to protest your heart.

What would cause a more estrogen spike
250 ius hcg or 50 mgs of test?
What if one does 250 ius hcg day before 50 mgs test when would the spike of estrogen occur during that duration? and would taking armidex say day of hcg prevent this or its more of a serum level armidex that matters rather then space and time of administration as long as 5 days are not reached

[hardasnails1973]

If your T is that high on Day 6, you need to cut back your dose.

I think we shall let your numbers, and the labs you had (and did not have) done, speak for themselves.

Additionally, you need to run a Bioavailable Testosterone. It is the gold standard for TRT treatment.

If i remember right injections blood drawn are suppose to be at 48 hours after the the initial injection and that was saturday. So your blood would have been a crest on monday and if your where going to have e2 problems it would have been detected at the peak if I am correct, but dr john noted that estrogen does lag so when would the e2 be at its peak the same time as testosterone will be or a day or so later?
Alot of guys tend to trick drs and get there blood tested on the lowest point so they need to up the dosages. My freinds are notroius for this and wonder why they end up with problems. By me usind E3 day method the peak would almost be close to the trough so levels would be more stable. It would nice to see if jansz can find a chart of how e2 and test correlate according a 5-7 day injection schedule. from my reading a person T levels can drop nearly 1/3 by day 5th day and that is what the HCG procotol prevents from happeining.
HCG will raise a person about 200-300 point and it would be just enough to level them out to a more stable ride.
The more hcg this foundation gives the more armidex can be prescribed and if one can avoid less drugs the better off they will be !!

[Forever Young]

If your T is that high on Day 6, you need to cut back your dose.

I think we shall let your numbers, and the labs you had (and did not have) done, speak for themselves.

Additionally, you need to run a Bioavailable Testosterone. It is the gold standard for TRT treatment.

Dr. John - I can query my doc about the E2 levels, and ask him to document his claim that E2 is not a problem, and that the testosterone levels are fine.

I think he would have to produce some docs for this, to back up his claim.

But, if I query him about why SHBG was not taken, if it is necessary to diagnose hormone levels - he's going to say 'it is not'.

He's not going to produce docs to prove a negative. He's going to say, where are the docs to prove the positive - that SHBG is needed and that it is state-of-the-art.

With all due respect, some documents on this would be very useful. Most folks in the forum are beyond the point of accepting judgments from doctors or anyone - without docs to support those judgements. That's why we are asking questions here, rather than just accepting the dogma of the general medical profession - who would clearly like to deep six almost all hormone treatments - and seem to be actively against the AA4M (I found this NY Times article interesting Aging: Disease or Business Opportunity? - New York Times )

I'm not trying to be rude by asking, I'm trying to show my respect - as I found your docs on HCG to be very informative and useful.

[hardasnails1973]

Personally, I do not care which day of the week labs are drawn, just not on injection day.

then really after 6 weeks then it would not really matter because serum levels would have been reached and the injection would just be to keep it stable.

[JanSz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanSz
My mind is set now.
Use of prescription pregnenolone cream 100/1mg, 1gram/day
elevated (finally) my DHEA to 3x over the max range.
I was also taking, as usual 350mg DHEA in pills.
Pills never worked for me for the last few years.
Now I keep pregnenolone but dropped DHEA pills.
If my next test shows any need for DHEA I will ask compounding pharmacy to add DHEA to my pregnenolone cream.

I see where your estrogen issues come from. DHEA at around 100mg per day increases E1. Why on earth were you taking that much?

Thank you Dr. John for your opinion.

I was taking massive amounts of DHEA and it did not helped much in raising blood level of DHEAs.
Now I do not take any DHEA, I hope the pregnenolone cream, prescription 100mg/1gram, 1gram/day will works its way thru and not only get my blood pregnenolone higher but also keep my DHEAs where I want it to be.
-----
I hope I was able to get my high Total Estrogens and Estrone under control.
My last test of them came within range.
I attibute it to me taking
6 pills of LEF Dual-action (increase from previous one pill)(DIM plus many other goodies)
and 2 pills of TMG (had slight amount of it in my multis)
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw, 60 Vegetarian Capsules
Tmg (Trimethylglycine), 500 Mg 180 Tablets
--------------------------------------------------
Fly in the ointment in this analysis:
I also took Myomin, 6 pills daily.

Since this post:
Correcting Estrogen Dominance

Myomin - Hormone Balancing Formula

[plymouth city]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanSz
My mind is set now.
Use of prescription pregnenolone cream 100/1mg, 1gram/day
elevated (finally) my DHEA to 3x over the max range.
I was also taking, as usual 350mg DHEA in pills.
Pills never worked for me for the last few years.
Now I keep pregnenolone but dropped DHEA pills.
If my next test shows any need for DHEA I will ask compounding pharmacy to add DHEA to my pregnenolone cream.



Thank you Dr. John for your opinion.

I was taking massive amounts of DHEA and it did not helped much in raising blood level of DHEAs.
Now I do not take any DHEA, I hope the pregnenolone cream, prescription 100mg/1gram, 1gram/day will works its way thru and not only get my blood pregnenolone higher but also keep my DHEAs where I want it to be.
-----
I hope I was able to get my high Total Estrogens and Estrone under control.
My last test of them came within range.
I attibute it to me taking
6 pills of LEF Dual-action (increase from previous one pill)(DIM plus many other goodies)
and 2 pills of TMG (had slight amount of it in my multis)
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw, 60 Vegetarian Capsules
Tmg (Trimethylglycine), 500 Mg 180 Tablets
--------------------------------------------------
Fly in the ointment in this analysis:
I also took Myomin, 6 pills daily.

Since this post:
Correcting Estrogen Dominance

Myomin - Hormone Balancing Formula

This happens to most, oral DHEA is usually crap, there are a few brands that I know of that alot are responding well to, most are taking 50 - 100mg per day and seeing DHEA double.

[plymouth city]

I see where your estrogen issues come from. DHEA at around 100mg per day increases E1. Why on earth were you taking that much?

Yep, breaks down into 5 then 4 andro which converts to Estrone(E1).

This is also why the early prohormones never worked - The andro kept breaking down into Estrone and not testosterone.

[JanSz]

[QUOTE=Dr. John;819078][QUOTE=JanSz;819036]Since this post:
Correcting Estrogen Dominance

Here's a quote from that link:

"Men with estrogen dominance can also benefit from progesterone."

Run. Run very fast.

My progesterone stay at the top level and did not changed.

Something did good job on my estrogens while not touching my E2
--------
10/1/2006 LabCorp
Total Estrogens------------------------------ ---260 pg/mL (40-115)
estrone, serum------------------------------- ----78 pg/mL (12-72)
Estradiol, sensitive--------------------------- ----27 pg/mL (3-70)
Progesterone---------------------------------- ----1.4 ng/dL (0.3-1.2)
Pregnenolone---------------------------------- ----23 ng/dL (10–200)
DHT (dihydrotestosterone)--------------- ---226 ng/dL (30-85)
prolactin, serum----------------------------- ----4.2 ng/dL (2.1-17.7)
DHEA Sulfate------------------------------------- ---369 ng/dL (42-290)

---------------------
-------------------
April13/07 Quest
64 Progesterone 1.4 mg/mL (<1.4)
65 Pregnenolone
66 Estradiol 45 pg/mL (<52)
69 Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive 27 pg/mL (10-50)
70 Estrogens, Total, Serum 60 pg/mL (130 or less)
71 Estrone,serum 33 pg/mL (<or=68)
83 Dihydrotestosterone DHT 143 ng/dL (25-75)
59 DHEA sulfate 306 mcg/dL (25-95)

[hardasnails1973]

[QUOTE=Dr. John;819178][QUOTE=JanSz;819120]

What have we said here so many times about the Total Estrogen assay?

You will notice E2 went up a bit, while E1 dropped substantially.

THEY ARE WORTHLESS.
Jansz why not do the urine test that way results would be more valid?

Could it be the fact that the progesterone from the hcg and pregnelone cream pushing up e2? E1 dropped due to the estrogen protocol possible or was it getting converted to more e2 since they can go back and forth according to the steroid flow chart

[JanSz]

[QUOTE=hardasnails1973;819318][QUOTE=Dr. John;819178]

THEY ARE WORTHLESS.
Jansz why not do the urine test that way results would be more valid?

Could it be the fact that the progesterone from the hcg and pregnelone cream pushing up e2? E1 dropped due to the estrogen protocol possible or was it getting converted to more e2 since they can go back and forth according to the steroid flow chart

Estradiol, sensitive E2 = 27 all the time, no change.

[hardasnails1973]

[QUOTE=JanSz;819356][QUOTE=hardasnails1973;819318]

Estradiol, sensitive E2 = 27 all the time, no change.

forgot shbg there bro..did they take it? if shbg is low then estrogen level needs to come down

[JanSz]

[QUOTE=hardasnails1973;819370][QUOTE=JanSz;819356]

forgot shbg there bro..did they take it? if shbg is low then estrogen level needs to come down

Must say, I do not understand your coment.
SHBG=20nmol/L(23-38)