christopher
Member
What is the best way to contol cortisol (aside from anabolics)...?
Cortisol...
- Thread starter christopher
- Start date
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Hi or low need to identify which when and where before trying to self diagnose one self
christopher
Member
not trying to self diagnose....
my saliva results were as follows....
Cortisol
@9:30 am 5.9ng/ml range 3-8
@2 pm 1.8ng/ml range 2-4
@6pm 1.0 range 1-2
@ 10 pm 0.7 range 0.5-1.5
thAT was a test from ZRT labs....
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Dr hit it right on the spot as he usually does. afternoon may dip because if you are dealing with issues frome work is all.
pmgamer18
Well-known member
No cortisol levels are highest first thing in the morning this helps us to get going. later from noon on it goes down this is normal so by bed time it should be it's lowest this way you can sleep. There is not one thing wrong with his cortisol levels. I see test that are first thing in the morning are 1.5 now this is not good can be anything.
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Phil
christopher
Member
"""Cortisol is normal in the morning, low at noon, and returns to a normal level in the evening and at night. A lower noon cortisol can be caused by adrenal exhaustion or the use of hormonal supplements that cause a temporal (several hours following medication) suppression of cortisol synthesis by the adrenal glands or an increase in the rate of hepatic cortisol metabolism/clearance. Adrenal exhaustion is most commonly caused by stress (emotional), sleep deprivation, poor diet (low protein-particularly problematic in vegetarians), nutrient deficiencies (particularly low vitamins C and B5), and low levels of cortiso precursors (pregnenolone and progesterone) Excessive androgen replacement therapy (DHEA or testosterone) or the use of synthetic glucocorticoids can cause a transient lowering of adrenal cortisol synthesis (inhibits CRH/ACTH axis) which results in lowered cortisol levels for several hours following hormone use. Thyroid therapy increases hepatic clearance of cortisol, which could also cause a transient lowering of cortisol for several hours following thyroid therapy. A normal daily output of cortisol is essential to maintain normal metabolic activity, help regulate steady state glucose levels for the brain, and optimize immune function. Cortisol levels dropping below range may result in fatigue, sugar craving, and many of the symptoms of thyroid deficiency (e.g. feeling cold, low libido, depression, anxiety). Normal physiological levels of cortisol are essential for optimal thyroid function. For additional information about strategies for supporting adrenal health the following books are worth reading:
"Adrenal Fatigue", by James L. Wilson, N.D., D.C., Ph.D.; "The Cortisol Connection", by Shawn Talbott, Ph.D.; "The End of Stress As We Know It" by Bruce McEwen; "Awakening Athena" by Kenna Stephenson, MD; "Thyroid Power", by Richard Shames, MD""""""""
The above results and comments are for informational purposes only and are not to be construed as medical advice. Please consult your healthcare practitioner for diagnosis and
Copyright20OS. ZRT Laboratory, LLC. and Insyst Informalion
christopher
Member
In addition to the above summary, I cant, no matter how strict a diet, get rid of low ab fat....Im low BF and lean and cut everywhere else.....Could be estrogen problem also....?
christopher
Member
Thankx for the links-I have to read those a few times and try to grasp all the info..........Im treating thyroid/adrenals currently....I cant stay awake in the afternoons...any idea why...?
hardasnails1973
Registered User
what are you eating for lunch because you could be having an insulin imbalance and adjusting diet may all that may be needed to over come this. Where I used to work I used to watch fat people eat lunch and then by 2 pm there ass would be dragging. You might want to try 200 mcgs chromium at lunch time and see if that help you out for stabilizing insulin levels. Are you also taking thyroid medicine because some times it can cause your adrenals to fluctaute. But your cortisol levels look GOOD. May be add alittle b-5 500 mgs at lunch time and see how you feel thats all you might need to get you over the hump
pmgamer18
Well-known member
Ok were you treating your adrenals when you did this test if so the test is not any good. What are you treat them with if HC the test is not any good you need to be off HC for 2 weeks to retest. And to come off HC is dam hard if your adrenals are in bad shape.
Phil
christopher
Member
No...Wasnt treating adrenals when the test was done....
christopher
Member
Lunch is usually a 12 " tuna on wheat....
hardasnails1973
Registered User
christopher
Member
Try eating half the bread
too many carbs...?
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Could be causing a drop in blood sugar and people that have thyroid and/or adrenal issues do have insulin imbalances. TRy some tuna and some legumes on a nice salad with some EVO and see how you feel. You just may need some good fats to slow down carb absorption. if you get tired at 2 pm then at 1 45 have a hand full of raw cashews, almonds if you eat your regular tuna sandwhich or just have tuna salad with EVO and may be a small yam. try differnt combinations, but raw nuts always used to level me out
christopher
Member
Not sure what you define as sides...?
I just looked thru my bloodwork, and I cant find a result for E2...Only thing I have is saliva test levels from the ZRT test....
pmgamer18
Well-known member
How are you taking your HC I am low in the morning so I do 10mgs first thing in the morning. You can try 5mgs in the mornig and 10 at noon when you feel down.
christopher
Member
christopher
Member
Symptoms....Whe you said sides I was thinkin...never mind....
Tired in the am, low ab fat (thats the only place), inability to concentrate, memory, remembering and comprehending, hi's n lows, etc
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Since taking cortisol for adrenal fatigue verified by Salvia testing is it possible that not taking DHEA along with it could be giving me all the possible side effects such as memory loss, muscle mass drop, and erectile dysfunction because of the catabolic effects of the HC. Prgmmer mentioned that DHEA was increased when he started HC, but he was also on HCG and dhea to begin with so he had more things feeding the pathways. Well I am waiting for the test resutls to get back. I think taking DHEA with HC will help to offset the side effects associtated with elevated cortisol. Since they do balance each other.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Could taking HCG actually also increase DHEA levels as well?
This may be what has happening to me
Taking the cortisol is working wonders but its causing depletion of dhea levels..
DHEA
Balances the effects of Glucocorticoids
USE DHEA with Glucocorticoieds
ACTH stimulates release of Cortisol and DHEA from the adrenal cortex
Catabolic effects of Glucocorticoids (GC) are counteracted by anabolic effects of DHEA
DHEA ameliorates some deleterious effects of GC, such as diabetes, amino acid deamination, fattiness, hypertension and susceptibility to viraemia.
DHEA may compensate for GC secreted by adrenal cortex
Decreased DHEA in aging, Rheumatoid Arthritis and Lupus
DHEA and Glucocorticoids
Giving GC decreases ACTH and Decreases DHEA
Deleterious side effects of GC: muscular weakness, atrophy and necrosis, diabetes, fattiness, osteopenia, osteoporosis and avascular necrosis and susceptibility to infections
Robinzon B. Should dehydroepiandrosterone replacement therapy be provided with glucocorticoids?
Rheumatology (Oxford) 1999 Jun;38(6):488-95
This may be what has happening to me
Taking the cortisol is working wonders but its causing depletion of dhea levels..
DHEA
Balances the effects of Glucocorticoids
USE DHEA with Glucocorticoieds
ACTH stimulates release of Cortisol and DHEA from the adrenal cortex
Catabolic effects of Glucocorticoids (GC) are counteracted by anabolic effects of DHEA
DHEA ameliorates some deleterious effects of GC, such as diabetes, amino acid deamination, fattiness, hypertension and susceptibility to viraemia.
DHEA may compensate for GC secreted by adrenal cortex
Decreased DHEA in aging, Rheumatoid Arthritis and Lupus
DHEA and Glucocorticoids
Giving GC decreases ACTH and Decreases DHEA
Deleterious side effects of GC: muscular weakness, atrophy and necrosis, diabetes, fattiness, osteopenia, osteoporosis and avascular necrosis and susceptibility to infections
Robinzon B. Should dehydroepiandrosterone replacement therapy be provided with glucocorticoids?
Rheumatology (Oxford) 1999 Jun;38(6):488-95
pmgamer18
Well-known member
christopher
Member
pmgamer18
Well-known member
I tried all kinds of supplements and the only one that worked was Isocort I took 4 pills in the morning = 10mgs of cortisol and 2 pills at noon and dinner = 5mgs each of cortisol. I felt better just taking one pill when I started. You need to work your way up on them. Here is a cut & paste of a post to a Bill I did sometime ago on how I started treating my Thyroid and Adrenals.
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Bill sorry to hear you have this problem your cortisol is lower then my first test I was 8. The ACTH Stim test will show if it's you Adrenals or your Pituitary not sending the message ACTH to your Adrenals to make Cortisol. Here is a link to Chris's Explaination of the ACTH test you need to read this I have seen posts where Dr.'s did it wrong. You need to be sure you understand about this test and how to read it.
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Most people find out they have low cortisol because they have a low Thyroid Problem one needs cortisol to carry the thyroid hormone from the blood to the cells. If there cortisol is low do to Adrenal Fatigue there is not enough cortisol to do this and as they up there meds they start to feel hyper because the hormone is going to high in the blood and not being carried to the cells. One big cause of Adrenal Fatigue is a low Thyroid the Adrenals work over time to bring up levels of thyroid and become fatigued.
Now we are finding a lot of men with low T had Adrenal Fatigue do to the stress of low T be it from the fatigue of low T or the high Estradiol. But it's dam odd that as men hear about this and are not feeling 100% on TRT that after a blood test there cortisol levels are low.
The first thing I did was to try and figure out what stage of Adrenal Fatigue I was at and it looked like stage 3.
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Then I went to this site and printed out a chart for tracking your body's temps. I would take it under my arm before getting out of bed for 10 min.'s if it is under 97.8 you have a thyroid problem my temps that I did were for 4 morning and then I did an avg. it was 95.8.
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Using this to take my temps it is also sold at Wall-Greens and Wal-mart.
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Then after I was up for 3 hrs I took my temp every 3 hrs 3 to 4 times a day and did an avg. My avg. was low between 96.8 to 97.6 and each day was up or down this is Adrenal Fatigue.
I then ordered a Saliva Test through this link.
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From the Canary Club for about $140.00 this is the best way to test cortisol levels and DHEA.
Then I bought the book "Adrenal Fatigue The 21st. Century by Wilson. This book was a big help in understanding this problem but doing what he said to treat it with stuff like this did nothing to my temp chart. It has this in it Pituitary Extract (Freeze-Dried) 120 mg
Adrenal Cortex Extract 33 mg and cortisol but you have no idea how much.
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Also he said to do B Vit.s.
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Vit. C
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Everyone with low Cortisol has low DHEA I take this 2 a day.
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I take 3 grams of a good brand of Fish OIL. I buy mine at Coscos (spelling) I get the one that is coated so you don't burp it up.
And there is Maca this helps keep your Adrenal hormones leveled. I was off this for 30 days and just went back on it I feel better on this. I do 1/2 tsp 2 x's a day. This is the best price and product on he web.
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I dropped the Adrenal cortex
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It did nothing.
I got some Isocort and started on it it is made from sheep adrenal's and wow the first pill made me feel good you need to start this slow. I did 4 pills = 10mgs. of cortisol first thing in the morning with food and 2 pills = 5mgs. of cortisol at noon and dinner. This changed my chart my temps come up to 98.4 to 99 but still up and down if your avg. is up or down from day to day more then .2 tenths your cortisol is still to low. I followed this to get started.
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My Dr. would not give me Hydrocortisone said it's not safe to use. So I got this book by Dr. Jefferies "Safe Uses of Cortisol"
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Showed this to my Dr. and he blew it off and pissed me off.
I got up to 120mgs of Armour and could not do more my charting even showed my Adrenals were not right to go higher. So I switched to HC and stated with 10mgs. in the morning wow in less then a week my temps were a straight line across at 98.6 first time in 8 months of charting things were looking good and I was feeling better. So if you need to treat your Adrenals the best place for help is Val. at this link.
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Most of the people posting there are Thyroid and Adrenal Fatigue but she helps for Adrenals only too. Do get your thyroid checked have the TSH, Free T4 and Free T3 checked and post them to her.
Wow this was a long post hope it helps.
Phil
-----------------------------------------------------------
Bill sorry to hear you have this problem your cortisol is lower then my first test I was 8. The ACTH Stim test will show if it's you Adrenals or your Pituitary not sending the message ACTH to your Adrenals to make Cortisol. Here is a link to Chris's Explaination of the ACTH test you need to read this I have seen posts where Dr.'s did it wrong. You need to be sure you understand about this test and how to read it.
Invalid Link Removed.
Most people find out they have low cortisol because they have a low Thyroid Problem one needs cortisol to carry the thyroid hormone from the blood to the cells. If there cortisol is low do to Adrenal Fatigue there is not enough cortisol to do this and as they up there meds they start to feel hyper because the hormone is going to high in the blood and not being carried to the cells. One big cause of Adrenal Fatigue is a low Thyroid the Adrenals work over time to bring up levels of thyroid and become fatigued.
Now we are finding a lot of men with low T had Adrenal Fatigue do to the stress of low T be it from the fatigue of low T or the high Estradiol. But it's dam odd that as men hear about this and are not feeling 100% on TRT that after a blood test there cortisol levels are low.
The first thing I did was to try and figure out what stage of Adrenal Fatigue I was at and it looked like stage 3.
Invalid Link Removed
Then I went to this site and printed out a chart for tracking your body's temps. I would take it under my arm before getting out of bed for 10 min.'s if it is under 97.8 you have a thyroid problem my temps that I did were for 4 morning and then I did an avg. it was 95.8.
Invalid Link Removed
Using this to take my temps it is also sold at Wall-Greens and Wal-mart.
Invalid Link Removed
Then after I was up for 3 hrs I took my temp every 3 hrs 3 to 4 times a day and did an avg. My avg. was low between 96.8 to 97.6 and each day was up or down this is Adrenal Fatigue.
I then ordered a Saliva Test through this link.
Invalid Link Removed
From the Canary Club for about $140.00 this is the best way to test cortisol levels and DHEA.
Then I bought the book "Adrenal Fatigue The 21st. Century by Wilson. This book was a big help in understanding this problem but doing what he said to treat it with stuff like this did nothing to my temp chart. It has this in it Pituitary Extract (Freeze-Dried) 120 mg
Adrenal Cortex Extract 33 mg and cortisol but you have no idea how much.
Invalid Link Removed
Also he said to do B Vit.s.
Invalid Link Removed
Vit. C
Invalid Link Removed
Everyone with low Cortisol has low DHEA I take this 2 a day.
Invalid Link Removed
I take 3 grams of a good brand of Fish OIL. I buy mine at Coscos (spelling) I get the one that is coated so you don't burp it up.
And there is Maca this helps keep your Adrenal hormones leveled. I was off this for 30 days and just went back on it I feel better on this. I do 1/2 tsp 2 x's a day. This is the best price and product on he web.
Invalid Link Removed
I dropped the Adrenal cortex
Invalid Link Removed
It did nothing.
I got some Isocort and started on it it is made from sheep adrenal's and wow the first pill made me feel good you need to start this slow. I did 4 pills = 10mgs. of cortisol first thing in the morning with food and 2 pills = 5mgs. of cortisol at noon and dinner. This changed my chart my temps come up to 98.4 to 99 but still up and down if your avg. is up or down from day to day more then .2 tenths your cortisol is still to low. I followed this to get started.
Invalid Link Removed
My Dr. would not give me Hydrocortisone said it's not safe to use. So I got this book by Dr. Jefferies "Safe Uses of Cortisol"
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Showed this to my Dr. and he blew it off and pissed me off.
I got up to 120mgs of Armour and could not do more my charting even showed my Adrenals were not right to go higher. So I switched to HC and stated with 10mgs. in the morning wow in less then a week my temps were a straight line across at 98.6 first time in 8 months of charting things were looking good and I was feeling better. So if you need to treat your Adrenals the best place for help is Val. at this link.
Invalid Link Removed
Most of the people posting there are Thyroid and Adrenal Fatigue but she helps for Adrenals only too. Do get your thyroid checked have the TSH, Free T4 and Free T3 checked and post them to her.
Wow this was a long post hope it helps.
Phil
hardasnails1973
Registered User
When i was taking DHEA, HCG cortef, testosterone I was having vivid dreams and since stopping HCG, dhea all them have stopped. Would this be an indication that rem sleep has also declined?
christopher
Member
what are you talkin about man...?
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Ability to dream ..
JanSz
Well-known member
I stopped dreaming long ago, 10-15 years.
I think that must have been time when I started on T decline.
Taking DHEA, Testosterone for few years, did not changed my dream situation.
Lately I added Cortef, Armour and HCG.
One of them, looks like HCG, infuences dreams.
I am 16 days since starting HCG, had 6-7 dreams.
Either pleasant or neutral.
In the past, infrequently I would have very stressfull dream.
HCG is good, my testicles are almost right.
Scrotum is relaxed but only half way.
Before my TRT it used to hang very low, that would cause pain.
--------
When my testicles are good and ready, I would like to get closer look at my varicocele.
How to ask for this, there are number of tests;
manual
MRI
ultrasound
any thing else
I need more details, so I can tell my doctor what I want.
He 100% cooperates (so far).
--------
hardasnails1973
Registered User
I agree 100% that HCG was the missing key for returning me back to my healthy state. I felt like my old self on it and my dreams where colorful vivid and I could remember them like I did before getting ill. Now I just sleep and do not ever hit that deep sleep like I used to.
Due to the fact that I had elevated DHA and EPA in my RBC fatty acid test. i stopped all fish oils for almost 8 months to help to rebalance out thing. I just started to introduce them in other day and I could feel a sustain energy. I am doing only 1 tsp a day is all and going to eat more samon and use things in moderation not like naturopath told me 3 tsp a day.
JanSz
Well-known member
Couple of years ago advisor from LEF told me to drop melatonin. I do not remember his reasoning.
Anybody cares to make a guess of when melatonin is not indicated.
------
While I was using melatonin, I do not think it had any influence on my dreams, dreams were absent with or without melatonin.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
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progrmmer and Jansz I found this interseting about progesterone and dhea-s interactions and how HCG can actually increase dhea production and may indicated reduction in dhea supplementation. This might explain why we feel better on HCG when added to TRT due to the fact that increasing HCG would increase progesterone and body converts where it needs it IE if you are cortisol then it would be shunted to dhea pathway to counter balance it. Dr john is one brillant guy.
pmgamer18
Well-known member
hardasnails1973
Registered User
More eveidence to support HCG increasing DHEA
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Reason Dhea increases t4 to t3 in the liver is because it is also reduces lipid perioxidation PRetty cool huh LOL
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Reason Dhea increases t4 to t3 in the liver is because it is also reduces lipid perioxidation PRetty cool huh LOL
christopher
Member
hardasnails1973
Registered User
You are not supplementing Progesterone directly you are using hcg to stimulate pathways that will give the body the option which way the pathway goes. Its totally different.
christopher
Member
so essentally, you are saying that the hormone progesterone, bioidentically produced and supplemented, is not a valid option for males, yet, stimulating progesterone production via HCG supplementation is a valid choice...?
So assuming low progesterone levels, and progesterone serves as a natural anti-aromatase and 5 ar inhibitor, HCG is a better solution that direct supplementation via bio-id prog...?
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Yep and dr john is highly against progesterone creame big time!! from his past post. not only will stimulate the LH hormone, but also stimulate cytochrome p 450 which is start the whole cascade of hormonal events. Interesting huh. But you need to be on HRT to get the full benefits and supplement all pathways. I just found that DHEA levels are relfelctive of free testosterone levels in a study and in my case and pretty much majority of the cases I can see this being a factor because cortisol can lower your testosterone as well as your free. So supplementing cortisol if low is fine but one needs to complement it with dhea to off set the catabolic site effects from it.. Dhea ans all other hormones need to be monitored by a physcian
christopher
Member
can u explain this...?
hardasnails1973
Registered User
You should not HCG unless being monitored by DR while on HRT. Its nothing to experiment with..
christopher
Member
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Hcg stimulates the cytochrome P450 which triggers progesterone, cortisol, LH, estrogen, pregnanolone, dhea, ect
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christopher
Member
got ya....basically, you are saying that hcg, and its relationship w/test and its supplementation, is the key to acheiving "BALANCE"...? And, that while progesterone is not to be supplemented directly, it is an essenial piece is achieving overall balance ......?
So, my confusion surrounding progesterone was not the hormones necessity, but how to stimulate appropriate levels.....
JanSz
Well-known member
Is this statement correct. Anybody with references, please post them.
My tests:
Progesterone----1.4ng/dL (0.3-1.2)
Pregnenolone----23ng/dL (10–200) LOW
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Because low thyroid
Several studies verify low hypothyroid run parellel with low dhea-s and pregnenolone levels
Ok jansz would low esteogen levels prevent you from being able to build muscle
probably due to inability to retain sodium is my guess.christopher
Member
christopher
Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher
so essentally, you are saying that the hormone progesterone, bioidentically produced and supplemented, is not a valid option for males, yet, stimulating progesterone production via HCG supplementation is a valid choice...?
So assuming low progesterone levels, and progesterone serves as a natural anti-aromatase and 5 ar inhibitor, HCG is a better solution that direct supplementation via bio-id prog...?
The reason I was supplementing w/progesterone..... ""Progestrone may help to inhibit the conversion of androgens to estrogens as well as serve as a precursor for cortisol synthesis when cortisol levels are low...Progesterone is also a natural inhibitor of 5-alpha reductase, which converts testosterone to dihydrotesterone (DHT) within target cells. Thus adaqueate progesterone, which is both anti-estrogen as well as anti androgen, amy play an important role in preventing growth of prostate cancer""" ZRT Labs Summary and recommendations after my saliva tests.....
I need to get my progesterone levels retested by a different method to verify that they are low, since Dr John told me saliva test for progesterone is invalid......But, if you are losing hair and defecient in progesterone.....Fin works as a 5-ar inhibitor only, with unreliable results/side effects, while prog is a naturally occuring hormone in the body which serves in a similar fashion...although it has feminizing effects in large dose, or perhapps any dose bio-identically, stimulating it through alternate supplementation to achieve healthy levels should work more effectively that implementing propecia/advodart to correct a condition that does not involve an imbalance, and perhaps creating one.....That ties into multiple theories of the cause of hairloss, dht and estrogen, and IMO, helps to achieve balance....Balance is the goal or any trt or bio-id program, and alos in the hairloss game...i think they ALL tie together :duel: .....Balance is also key is psychological well bieng also....
Noone is defecient in propecia......
Originally Posted by christopher
so essentally, you are saying that the hormone progesterone, bioidentically produced and supplemented, is not a valid option for males, yet, stimulating progesterone production via HCG supplementation is a valid choice...?
So assuming low progesterone levels, and progesterone serves as a natural anti-aromatase and 5 ar inhibitor, HCG is a better solution that direct supplementation via bio-id prog...?
The reason I was supplementing w/progesterone..... ""Progestrone may help to inhibit the conversion of androgens to estrogens as well as serve as a precursor for cortisol synthesis when cortisol levels are low...Progesterone is also a natural inhibitor of 5-alpha reductase, which converts testosterone to dihydrotesterone (DHT) within target cells. Thus adaqueate progesterone, which is both anti-estrogen as well as anti androgen, amy play an important role in preventing growth of prostate cancer""" ZRT Labs Summary and recommendations after my saliva tests.....
I need to get my progesterone levels retested by a different method to verify that they are low, since Dr John told me saliva test for progesterone is invalid......But, if you are losing hair and defecient in progesterone.....Fin works as a 5-ar inhibitor only, with unreliable results/side effects, while prog is a naturally occuring hormone in the body which serves in a similar fashion...although it has feminizing effects in large dose, or perhapps any dose bio-identically, stimulating it through alternate supplementation to achieve healthy levels should work more effectively that implementing propecia/advodart to correct a condition that does not involve an imbalance, and perhaps creating one.....That ties into multiple theories of the cause of hairloss, dht and estrogen, and IMO, helps to achieve balance....Balance is the goal or any trt or bio-id program, and alos in the hairloss game...i think they ALL tie together :duel: .....Balance is also key is psychological well bieng also....
Noone is defecient in propecia......