found this study....interesting

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00003/art00009

Nice one hyde. I seen that study before when i was doing research way back, good article.

I believe varicocele causes "dysfunction" rather than failure. My theory is that the actual secreted T takes longer to get into the blood stream due to the weak blood flow. This in turn leads to lower total T. LH will only elevate when the leydig cells suffer from atrophy or the leydig cell array is reduced (due to tissue death).

I need to go back in and get a venogram done (to check for leaking veins) as the varicocele is still causing pain for me and i am getting reflux/back flow in the veins.

I had a doppler ultrasound done and it showed back flow on aspiration which could be causing my problems. The good new's however was that the testicles were both intact with regards to the echo texture or "meat" of the testicles themself. The urologist said i had shrinkage but NOT atrophy. He described atrophy is as being actual tissue changes and death of the testicle cells/tissues.

How are you progressing yourself? No pain or anything from the varicocele? You need to your get your LH up to 3.9, i don't think you've recovered properly.

Originally Posted by Megazoid

Nice one hyde. I seen that study before when i was doing research way back, good article.

I believe varicocele causes "dysfunction" rather than failure. My theory is that the actual secreted T takes longer to get into the blood stream due to the weak blood flow. This in turn leads to lower total T. LH will only elevate when the leydig cells suffer from atrophy or the leydig cell array is reduced (due to tissue death).

I need to go back in and get a venogram done (to check for leaking veins) as the varicocele is still causing pain for me and i am getting reflux/back flow in the veins.

I had a doppler ultrasound done and it showed back flow on aspiration which could be causing my problems. The good new's however was that the testicles were both intact with regards to the echo texture or "meat" of the testicles themself. The urologist said i had shrinkage but NOT atrophy. He described atrophy is as being actual tissue changes and death of the testicle cells/tissues.

How are you progressing yourself? No pain or anything from the varicocele? You need to your get your LH up to 3.9, i don't think you've recovered properly.

Well, right after the surgery I started feeking good and then my libido took a nose dive again.So, I started taking 6-oxo, ZMA and fenugreek and Im starting to feel much better. I even had some morning wood this morning My left testicle was hurting really really bad this morning. I dont know if its a good sign (like maybe its coming back to life) or a bad sign.

Originally Posted by Hyde12

Well, right after the surgery I started feeking good and then my libido took a nose dive again.So, I started taking 6-oxo, ZMA and fenugreek and Im starting to feel much better. I even had some morning wood this morning My left testicle was hurting really really bad this morning. I dont know if its a good sign (like maybe its coming back to life) or a bad sign.

Describe what fenugreek does in this context.

Difficult to say. Is the pain coming from the veins or spermatic cord or the actual "ball" itself?

it seems like the actual ball itself

Originally Posted by JanSz

Describe what fenugreek does in this context.

Helps with libido and semen quantity. Fenugreek is also reported to increase testosterone. Yeah, I know that it raises progesterone but that is only in women.

Well, they did another ultrasound and said that it looks like I may have epididymitis! This sucks if its not one thing its another!

I finally got my second set of tests back (a week late... they somehow lost them the first time I went in ) So here thery are:

testosterone, total 273 ng/dL 250-1100
testosterone, free 47.7 pg/mL 35.0-155.0
% free testosterone 1.75 1.1-2.8

LH 1.9 mIU/mL 1.5-9.3
FSH 1.4 mIU/mL 1.6-8.0
Prolactin 8.4 ng/mL 2.0-18.0

Based on my (admittedly limited) understanding of the hpta, low LH and FSH probably means my testicles probably aren't the problem, corrent?

The urologist I was seeing said he didn't want to prescribe testosterone replacement since it was still in range. However, he seems to realize that there definately is something wrong, so he's sending my to an endocrinologist instead. (At least he can admit he doesn't know enough about it...)

I'm guessing I should now be looking into the possibility of either 1) pituitary problems of some sort or 2) elevated estrogen levels.

thoughts?

Originally Posted by sammowise

I finally got my second set of tests back (a week late... they somehow lost them the first time I went in ) So here thery are:

testosterone, total 273 ng/dL 250-1100
testosterone, free 47.7 pg/mL 35.0-155.0
% free testosterone 1.75 1.1-2.8

LH 1.9 mIU/mL 1.5-9.3
FSH 1.4 mIU/mL 1.6-8.0
Prolactin 8.4 ng/mL 2.0-18.0

Based on my (admittedly limited) understanding of the hpta, low LH and FSH probably means my testicles probably aren't the problem, corrent?

The urologist I was seeing said he didn't want to prescribe testosterone replacement since it was still in range. However, he seems to realize that there definately is something wrong, so he's sending my to an endocrinologist instead. (At least he can admit he doesn't know enough about it...)

I'm guessing I should now be looking into the possibility of either 1) pituitary problems of some sort or 2) elevated estrogen levels.

thoughts?

1. It would be helpfull to start with more complete test, post what you have, you have mentioned of having extensive test done.
2. Add the E2, DHT, SHBG, Albumin (at least), possibly thyroid and adrenals info.
3. You may want to look into HCG alone first, possibly plus DIM.

Originally Posted by sammowise

I finally got my second set of tests back (a week late... they somehow lost them the first time I went in ) So here thery are:

testosterone, total 273 ng/dL 250-1100
testosterone, free 47.7 pg/mL 35.0-155.0
% free testosterone 1.75 1.1-2.8

LH 1.9 mIU/mL 1.5-9.3
FSH 1.4 mIU/mL 1.6-8.0
Prolactin 8.4 ng/mL 2.0-18.0

Based on my (admittedly limited) understanding of the hpta, low LH and FSH probably means my testicles probably aren't the problem, corrent?

The urologist I was seeing said he didn't want to prescribe testosterone replacement since it was still in range. However, he seems to realize that there definately is something wrong, so he's sending my to an endocrinologist instead. (At least he can admit he doesn't know enough about it...)

I'm guessing I should now be looking into the possibility of either 1) pituitary problems of some sort or 2) elevated estrogen levels.

thoughts?

The T is very low. The low FSH and LH are probably the cause as the testes are not been told to make T. You probably need T and HCG. The HCG will put the testes to work. 250iu HCG injected SQ/SC EOD might be tried alone. It will take a while for the testes to get back up to speed. Then a test for T levels would indicate if you need more T. But you doc may go right to the T.

Future tests will need to also get E2 estrogen levels.

Well, Im going back to the Urologist Friday becase it seems like the Varicocele is still there and the surgery was about 2 months ago. I dont know how long it typically takes to heal.

The varicoceles never actually go away hyde. Once you have it, it's always there, surgery or not. Basically the surgery does improve matters (this is known) with regards to pain and sometimes sperm/testosterone levels but other times it makes it worse. It's usually best to get it fixed though to out-rule it.

I would request a color doppler ultrasound and also more recent blood work to see how thing's are going. Have your testicles increased in size at all?

I had the surgery in the end of august.. Doc told me it was pretty big and had to remove some vessels.. and that there would be scar tissue left.. Now I think I can feel another varicocele forming so I'm going to make an appointment with the urologist tomorrow.. Should I ask for bloodwork to check test levels? What else should I have checked? last time I didn't know how it effected test and the doctor never said anything and never did bloodwork to check my testosterone.. I had a pretty bad one my left testicle was atrophied so I probably had some lowered test/sperm production..

Originally Posted by Megazoid

The varicoceles never actually go away hyde. Once you have it, it's always there, surgery or not. Basically the surgery does improve matters (this is known) with regards to pain and sometimes sperm/testosterone levels but other times it makes it worse. It's usually best to get it fixed though to out-rule it.

I would request a color doppler ultrasound and also more recent blood work to see how thing's are going. Have your testicles increased in size at all?

Yeah, it seems like they have increased in size, but the wierd thing is is that they dont hang as low as they used to. I'm using some clomid right now and that seems to be helping a lot. I do feel a marked improvement now as to before my Varicocele ligation. My Urologist says it will go away in time. I dont really see why a Varicocele should'nt go away because you are redirecting blood flow to another vein.

Originally Posted by Hyde12

Yeah, it seems like they have increased in size, but the wierd thing is is that they dont hang as low as they used to. I'm using some clomid right now and that seems to be helping a lot. I do feel a marked improvement now as to before my Varicocele ligation. My Urologist says it will go away in time. I dont really see why a Varicocele should'nt go away because you are redirecting blood flow to another vein.

The size and hanging are both LH related. Clomid will raise your LH and that should do the trick if your hypothalamus and pituitary are up to the task.

The testes are also responsive to DHT and that depends on T to make that. So that is a time delay. The levels of T inside the testes are around 100 times that of serum. So there will be more than enough T inside the testes.

HCG could be used to hurry things along, but that is repressive and would set back your own LH response.

As E levels do create a negative feedback on LH, E can impede your progress. While you are taking clomid, you are blinding your hypothalamus to the E levels and the LH levels will raise. There will be increased E and T. Note that the increased E will create increased interference at T receptors.

Note that the T levels will also raise and the E & SHBG levels typically then increase as well. If you stop the clomid suddenly, the hypothalamus will suddenly be exposed to all of that E and again you have a setback in your progress. So you will need to taper off of that clomid just like someone on PCT. One could use an AI to manage that transition as well.

Some guys get emotional from clomid from its estrogenic side effects, something common with some estrogentic SERMs. There are SERMs that do not have those sides. The increased E from a SERM can improve arterial endothelial function and skin tone. But I suspect that the increased E will promote or retain female-like fat patterns that many can shed with effective TRT. E is also now considered the major culprit for prostate enlargement and inflammation.

Originally Posted by KSman

The size and hanging are both LH related. Clomid will raise your LH and that should do the trick if your hypothalamus and pituitary are up to the task.

The testes are also responsive to DHT and that depends on T to make that. So that is a time delay. The levels of T inside the testes are around 100 times that of serum. So there will be more than enough T inside the testes.

HCG could be used to hurry things along, but that is repressive and would set back your own LH response.

As E levels do create a negative feedback on LH, E can impede your progress. While you are taking clomid, you are blinding your hypothalamus to the E levels and the LH levels will raise. There will be increased E and T. Note that the increased E will create increased interference at T receptors.

Note that the T levels will also raise and the E & SHBG levels typically then increase as well. If you stop the clomid suddenly, the hypothalamus will suddenly be exposed to all of that E and again you have a setback in your progress. So you will need to taper off of that clomid just like someone on post cycle therapy. One could use an AI to manage that transition as well.

Some guys get emotional from clomid from its estrogenic side effects, something common with some estrogentic SERMs. There are SERMs that do not have those sides. The increased E from a SERM can improve arterial endothelial function and skin tone. But I suspect that the increased E will promote or retain female-like fat patterns that many can shed with effective TRT. E is also now considered the major culprit for prostate enlargement and inflammation.

Im running a mild AI (ADED) inverse of the Clomid. Im only taking 50mg ED. I suspect that some of my problem is DHT related. I was really low on the DHT side of the house a couple of months ago. I really wish my Dr. could give me an RX for DHT.

Originally Posted by KSman

E is also now considered the major culprit for prostate enlargement and inflammation.

KSman;
I have enlarged prostate plus frequent urination problem
My last Oct06 test

Total Estrogens---260pg/mL (40-115)
estrone, serum----78pg/mL (12-72)
Estradiol, sensitive----27pg/mL (3-70)
Progesterone----1.4ng/dL(0.3-1.2)
Pregnenolone----23ng/dL(10–200)
Total Testosterone---932ng/dL(241-827)
Free Testosterone--36.5pg/mL(6.6-18.1)
DHT (dihydrotestosterone---226ng/dL (30-85)

I have since reduced amount of testosterone and added HCG and pregnenolone cream.

Question:
What would you advice to lower my TotalE and Estrone, possibly E2.

I am taking 4 pills of (Dual-action) DIM from LEF
and 1000 mg TMG
among other supplements.
------------------------------------------------------------
The 4 DIM pills I am taking for the last about month and half.
Before it was just 1 or two. I had dark urine. Now is wery clear.
I heard that DIM afects urine color.

Originally Posted by JanSz

KSman;
I have enlarged prostate plus frequent urination problem
My last Oct06 test

Total Estrogens---260pg/mL (40-115)
estrone, serum----78pg/mL (12-72)
Estradiol, sensitive----27pg/mL (3-70)
Progesterone----1.4ng/dL(0.3-1.2)
Pregnenolone----23ng/dL(10–200)
Total Testosterone---932ng/dL(241-827)
Free Testosterone--36.5pg/mL(6.6-18.1)
DHT (dihydrotestosterone---226ng/dL (30-85)

I have since reduced amount of testosterone and added HCG and pregnenolone cream.

Question:
What would you advice to lower my TotalE and Estrone, possibly E2.

I am taking 4 pills of (Dual-action) DIM from LEF
and 1000 mg TMG
among other supplements.
------------------------------------------------------------
The 4 DIM pills I am taking for the last about month and half.
Before it was just 1 or two. I had dark urine. Now is very clear.
I heard that DIM affects urine color.

Any signs if too much E such as brain fog, ED, libido, mood etc.

Many suggest that E should be closer to 17.

How is the nocturnal and morning wood? Your FT and DHT levels are high. Hormone response is a balance between the T and E. You might be in fine shape in many ways as the E might be overwhelmed by the other hormones.

How much DIM and how long prior to that BW? Did you have any prior BW showing E higher before starting the DIM?

E can be bad for the prostate, but perhaps your high DHT could be a problem as well. What is the history of the BPH relative to the TRT?

Do you take any botanicals for the BPH? This might be quite useful.

Originally Posted by KSman

Any signs if too much E such as brain fog, ED, libido, mood etc.

Many suggest that E should be closer to 17.

How is the nocturnal and morning wood? Your FT and DHT levels are high. Hormone response is a balance between the T and E. You might be in fine shape in many ways as the E might be overwhelmed by the other hormones.

How much DIM and how long prior to that BW? Did you have any prior BW showing E higher before starting the DIM?

E can be bad for the prostate, but perhaps your high DHT could be a problem as well. What is the history of the BPH relative to the TRT?

Do you take any botanicals for the BPH? This might be quite useful.

History of my TotalE and E2 is not linear.

............. Total E----E2
10/4/2005 ----///----- 38
8/26/2005 -----53---- 38
5/5/2006 ----- 65-----26
10/31/2006 ----260---- 27

The DHT is high because I stopped using Avodart. With daily Avodart it is DHT=29 (30-85)
I had enlarged prostate before I stared on T supplementation four years ago.
I am taking DIM (made by LEF) for long time (over 2 years), but per their advice I was taking only one pill daily. Now I take four. I did not feel much difference from that increase except that after about a month of use my urine got much lighter and (I think) less smelly.
I have a morning wood rather often, that does not translate to better performance.
----------------------------
Wonder if there is anybody who's prostate got better when their estrogen dropped?
----------------------------
I am taking LEF products,
Super Miraforte With Max Strength Chrysin, 120 Caps
Super MiraForte with Maximum Strength Chrysin

Advanced Natural Prostate Formula With 5-Loxin, 60 Softgels
Advanced Natural Prostate Formula with 5-Loxin
============================== ============================
I think not only my E2 is little high but Total E is out of line all together, any sugestions here?

Originally Posted by JanSz

History of my TotalE and E2 is not linear.

............. Total E----E2
10/4/2005 ----///----- 38
8/26/2005 -----53---- 38
5/5/2006 ----- 65-----26
10/31/2006 ----260---- 27

The DHT is high because I stopped using Avodart. With daily Avodart it is DHT=29 (30-85)
I had enlarged prostate before I stared on T supplementation four years ago.
I am taking DIM (made by LEF) for long time (over 2 years), but per their advice I was taking only one pill daily. Now I take four. I did not feel much difference from that increase except that after about a month of use my urine got much lighter and (I think) less smelly.
I have a morning wood rather often, that does not translate to better performance.
----------------------------
Wonder if there is anybody who's prostate got better when their estrogen dropped?
----------------------------
I am taking LEF products,
Super Miraforte With Max Strength Chrysin, 120 Caps
Super MiraForte with Maximum Strength Chrysin

Advanced Natural Prostate Formula With 5-Loxin, 60 Softgels
Advanced Natural Prostate Formula with 5-Loxin
============================== ============================
I think not only my E2 is little high but Total E is out of line all together, any sugestions here?

The Natural Prostate Formula is actually what I had in mind.

The MiraForte did not work for me, there are a few things that I don't absorb like that.

By one measure, morning wood, your E is not too high.

E dose make the prostate worse for guys with syndrome X who are estrogen dominant. For them, TRT and lowering E will help. But if they are showing signs of cancer, no doc would touch TRT.

Sounds like you are doing a lot already and the next step for lower E would be anastrozole/arimidex. How you feel would be your guide to its effectiveness. How do you feel?

I am not familar with testing of E for guys other that just E2. So I cannot comment.

Originally Posted by KSman

The Natural Prostate Formula is actually what I had in mind.

The MiraForte did not work for me, there are a few things that I don't absorb like that.

By one measure, morning wood, your E is not too high.

E dose make the prostate worse for guys with syndrome X who are estrogen dominant. For them, TRT and lowering E will help. But if they are showing signs of cancer, no doc would touch TRT.

Sounds like you are doing a lot already and the next step for lower E would be anastrozole/arimidex. How you feel would be your guide to its effectiveness. How do you feel?

I am not familar with testing of E for guys other that just E2. So I cannot comment.

Explain connection of lowering E and cancer.
I do have a cancer in my left tigh, sarcoma.
I had about 6 biopsies, no prostate cancer.

I do have Arimidex, will probably start using it latter.
I want to get first my blood test.
I would like to see changes if any due to my increased DIM intake.

Originally Posted by JanSz

Explain connection of lowering E and cancer.
I do have a cancer in my left tigh, sarcoma.
I had about 6 biopsies, no prostate cancer.

I do have Arimidex, will probably start using it latter.
I want to get first my blood test.
I would like to see changes if any due to my increased DIM intake.

Greater E leads to more BPH
More BPH leads to higher risk of prostate cancer
Less E, less BPH etc.

Hello , Megazoid you wrote in one post that coffe and alcohol
can make things worse with varicocele , is this true?

Caffeine based intake will aggrevate the small blood vessels around that area and if you have varicocele you will notice more pain than usual.

Alcholol is toxic to the leydig cells and because varicocele already causes significant damage to the cells on the testicle. It would be wise to avoid both imho.

[QUOTE=Megazoid;768004]Caffeine based intake will aggrevate the small blood vessels around that area and if you have varicocele you will notice more pain than usual.

Alcholol is toxic to the leydig cells and because varicocele already causes significant damage to the cells on the testicle. It would be wise to avoid both imho.[/QUOTE

Just wanted to give a quick update. Ever since the surgery and the short run of clomid inverse of an AI, I am feeling a million times better!

Very, very pleased to hear this Hyde. Great news! I wonder if the HCG will work for me then? Can you still feel the varicocele and do you ever get pain in the area?

Originally Posted by Megazoid

Very, very pleased to hear this Hyde. Great news! I wonder if the HCG will work for me then? Can you still feel the varicocele and do you ever get pain in the area?

No pain at all. The Varicocele is going away more and more everyday. I think It just takes a while. Dude, why dont you try to get off the TRT and HCG? Go to the post cyce therapy forum and you will get much help in this area. How will you ever know if your nuts will work again if you keep blasting them with Test and HCG? Read through the posts here and you will not see very many people who have success on TRT. I hate to say it, but it seems true. See if your Doc can give you an RX for Clomid or you can run the HCG and then run the Clomid, I recommend running an over the counter AI with the Clomid to prevent estrogen rebound. Check out the posts by Dr. D.

Originally Posted by Hyde12

No pain at all. The Varicocele is going away more and more everyday. I think It just takes a while. Dude, why dont you try to get off the TRT and HCG? Go to the post cyce therapy forum and you will get much help in this area. How will you ever know if your nuts will work again if you keep blasting them with Test and HCG? Read through the posts here and you will not see very many people who have success on TRT. I hate to say it, but it seems true. See if your Doc can give you an RX for Clomid or you can run the HCG and then run the Clomid, I recommend running an over the counter AI with the Clomid to prevent estrogen rebound. Check out the posts by Dr. D.

There are two (possibly more) different possibilities.

1. Somebody who do have a possiblity of recover, but does not recover because of of incorrect approach.

2. Primary, or half way, like me (67yo).
I started four years ago.
TotalT 311(241-827)
LH-5.7(1.5-9.3)
E2-24(0-52)
For three years I had only blood tests and Androgel available by script plus Arimidex by mail.
Now I have anything I want.
Added HCG (250IU every other day) in an effort to recover my native Testosterone + anything else testis are producing. I am two month into HCG. Testicles recovered size wise.
Do I have a better choice?

Originally Posted by JanSz

There are two (possibly more) different possibilities.

1. Somebody who do have a possiblity of recover, but does not recover because of of incorrect approach.

2. Primary, or half way, like me (67yo).
I started four years ago.
TotalT 311(241-827)
LH-5.7(1.5-9.3)
E2-24(0-52)
For three years I had only blood tests and Androgel available by script plus Arimidex by mail.
Now I have anything I want.
Added HCG (250IU every other day) in an effort to recover my native Testosterone + anything else testis are producing. I am two month into HCG. Testicles recovered size wise.
Do I have a better choice?

HCG isnt your natural testosterone. Have you ever tried Clomid?