VARICOCELE...can it effect testosterone?

[JanSz]

I am going to be setting up a website highlighting the dangers and being a one-stop-source for varicocele sufferers. Hopefully we can get the message across with time.

JazSz, it sound's like the varicocele might have been the cause of your low t. However you are an older dude too so it might be a combination of factors. Did you suffer any atrophy at all or were your nut's normal size before you started TRT? How long did you go "suffering" (with the ED/Libido and general Low t) before you went onto TRT?

In a realistic world i would have got the varicoceles fixed and see how you got on. Even now it might be worth fixing them then trying HCG if your LH/FSH aren't elevated due to testicular failure.

Why do you say you function "semi-ok" JazSz? I thought you were feeling really good on your TRT plan and were getting erections when you wanted them (is the libido still there?).

Hyde, would you be up for helping me with the site (moderating the forum, helping out, etc)?

Yes, most likely the varicocele is a reason for my low T.
I think my nuts were about the same size as usual, up until I started on Androgel, now small and soft.
I think my nuts were about right throughout my life.
One possible exception from normal was, and still is, that my right nut travels up the sack, right before orgasm.
It is uncomfortable enough that when it happens I have to stop and push it back, so it drops back into sack.
I had erection problems for about 3 years.
Now on Androgel it mostly works, underline mostly, not always, and that is with Cialis.
I never had libido problem, looking at pretty girl works me up, mentally.
It is quite confusing now, to get erection I need mechanical friction and there is time delay, even when everything works.
My wife is accustomed to the routine by now, still I have to concentrate a lot on the business at hand,
any distraction and erection may be gone.
I guess if I tried with somebody else it may not work unless she was really patient.
Few minutes ago I made appointment to see my new doctor (osteopath), next Tuesday.
That will be my second visit with him. His nurse, my dancing friend, said that he want to learn TRT.
So there is my big chance. I am hoping for change for better when I start HCG.
My ejaculate is almost non-existing,
I should probably do the other hormone, FSH, forgot its name, do not know brand names, dose, frequency, details. Somebody fill me in, please.
I will also ask him for script for Armour Thyroid and Cortef.
Actually I already ordered Armour over internet an already have Isocort,
but with the script my prescription plan will get a chance at footing my bills.
---------------------------------------------------------
Wish there was some detailed discussion on GH here.
Last time I checked my (IGF-1)=120 (75-212) (Sep2/05)
------
01-22-2007, 05:07 PM , Dr John said
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/58488-1-35-mg.html#post713739

Any doctor with much experience will tell you not to chase IGF-1 levels.
Once you have passed 2IU, what's the use?
You have to treat the patient, not a laboratory printout.
We normally produce about 0.5IU of GH per day.
---------
That may be a good starter.

 

[Megazoid]

HCG is known to improve ejaculate volume but it will result in that thin, watery like ejaculate which isn't too great.

I am only 23 year's old and also have to really work to get erections. I am not sure if thryoid/adrenals have a role to play int his too though. My thyroid is in the shape with no problems (if anything, i am a little underweight).

What were your latest labs like JazSz?

 

[JanSz]

HCG is known to improve ejaculate volume but it will result in that thin, watery like ejaculate which isn't too great.

I am only 23 year's old and also have to really work to get erections. I am not sure if thryoid/adrenals have a role to play int his too though. My thyroid is in the shape with no problems (if anything, i am a little underweight).

What were your latest labs like JazSz?

HCG basicaly replaces missing LH.
I was taking about Follicle stimulating hormone (FSH).
Supposedly it works better than HCG, and increases ejaculate volume, something I could use.
In wikipedia I was able to find:
Follicle-stimulating hormone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"FSH is available mixed with LH in the form of Pergonal, and other more purified forms of urinary gonadotropins as well as in a pure forms as recombinant FSH (Gonal F, Follistim). "
------
If there was discussion on this, FSH, topic, please point me to it.
I would like to know dose, frequency, product names any other particulars.
===========================================

I did my last test in Oct/06, at LabCorp, it was a short test.
As you see I got that useless FreeT, and they skipped SHBG, just so I was not able to do my own calculations. I was on 10grams of Androgel. I have since reduced to 7.5mg, I think it works better. I also take one extra, for the total of two pills of
LEF version of DIM+I3C. They have two of them, I use this one:
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw, 60 Vegetarian Capsules
.
Total Estrogens------------------------------ ---260 pg/mL (40-115) LE’s Optimal Range: 40–77 pg/mL
estrone, serum------------------------------- ----78 pg/mL (12-72)
Estradiol, sensitive--------------------------- ----27 pg/mL (3-70) LE’s Optimal Range: 10–30 pg/mL
Progesterone---------------------------------- ----1.4 ng/dL (0.3-1.2)
Pregnenolone---------------------------------- ----23 ng/dL (10–200) LE’s Optimal Range: 100–170 ng/dL
Total Testosterone-------------------------- ---932 ng/dL (241-827) LE’s Optimal Range 500–827 ng/dL
Free Testosterone--------------------------- --36.5 pg/mL (6.6-18.1) LE’s Optimal Range: 18–26.5 pg/mL
DHT (dihydrotestosterone)--------------- ---226 ng/dL (30-85) LE’s Optimal Range: 30–50 ng/dL
prolactin, serum----------------------------- ----4.2 ng/dL (2.1-17.7) LE’s Optimal Range: 2.1–5 ng/mL
sex hormone–binding globulin (SHBG), serum nmol/L 13–71 LE’s Optimal Range: Lower part of normal range is desirable
(TSH)-------------------------- --1.89 uIU/mL (0.350-5.5) LE’s Optimal Range: 0.35 to 2.1 mIU/mL TSH good if below 1.5(Gary Field) 1.425
Free (T3)----------------- --2.9 pg/mL (2.3-4.2) (3.67-4.2)per Crisgj2 =4.3-(4.2-2.3)/3=3.67 3.825 <--FT3 start of upper 25%
Total T3---------- ---104 ng/dL (85-205) MESO-Rx - View Single Post - For those of you on thyroid medication 3.667 <--FT3 start of upper 33%
Free T4(direct)--------------- --1.37 ng/dL (0.61-1.76) Top of the FT4 and upper third for FT3 is what I look for 3.350 <--FT3 start of upper 50%
DHEA Sulfate------------------------------------- ---369 ng/dL (42-290) LE’s Optimal Range: 500-640 ug/dL
Cortisol (7:20)AM --24.2 µg/dL (4.3-22.4)
Cortisol (3:20)PM ----6.9 µg/dL (3.1-16.7)
Hematocrit---------------------------------------- --45.6 % (36-50)

 

[Hyde12]

Ok, Im getting my varicocele surgery next Thursday. They are going to be doing the one in which they go through the groin. I will keep everyone posted of the outcome. Megazoid, I think the website is a great idea and I would love to help with it. People need to get the truth about these things and not put off the repair because they do effect Testosterone levels.

 

[Megazoid]

I wish you the best luck with your surgery Hyde and hope get a fast and effective recovery. Because your T is low this will effect your "recovery" time and i would strongly advise topping yourself on some TRT to get into a good 500/700 range so you recover faster. This operation will involve cutting muscle and this will generate at roughly 70% rate in normal t level men. While this will supress your HPTA further, in the long run i feel running TRT + HCG might be the answer after your surgery, this way you can reap the benfits of TRT while helping your balls to heal and grow back. The atrophy IS for the most part

Your HPTA is not firing out enough signals and you're balls won't be responding well so you should probably do TRT for a few months alongside HCG to get them back working again. After this you can try coming off everything using a post cycle therapy style cycle and restarting properly.

 

[Megazoid]

Thanks for the reply Dr John.

The main reason i have had to resort to self-treatment is because doctors are failing to help me in my country and i have spent thosands trying to get proper treatment. I have spent the past 6 months researching the subject of varicoceles and the effects on steriod secreation and testicular dysfunction caused by the varicocele. I am trying to raise awareness of the information i have gained regarding this subject and help others.

However you are right, i am not in a position to give out information regarding TRT so i will stay out of this one.

 

[Megazoid]

Dr John, i have a few questions for you which i hope you don't mind me asking.

1) Have you ever been presented with a patient that has varicocele induced testicular atrophy and normal LH/FSH levels but low T?

2) Have you ever used HCG on a varicocele sufferer and had good results with regards to improvements in testicular health and size (getting back "normal" testicular size for example)?

3) Have you ever been able to recover a varicocele suffer into gaining high T levels without TRT, using HCG + PCT style recovery (clomid/nolva)?

Special thanks for your help and input on this matter.

 

[Hyde12]

As I do sometimes, I'll just insert my responses IN CAPS. Please ignore usual Internet etiquette, as this is not meant as shouting.

We need more doctors out there like yourself. The Urologists that I've seen told me Varicoceles wont effect T Even though the testicle on the side with the varicocele is Atrophied.

 

[ItsHectic]

Can somoene do a seach and look for a proven connection?

I just know I have seen the association enough times to ignore it. You know, when I hear the same story over and over, I have to take it seriously.

But even if an association is not proven, the result is the same: repair the variocele, see what happens, and administer TRT if necessary.

I would say it does effect testosterone level, even the studies against, still say it does raise testosterone after surgery although insignificantly.

For
Entrez PubMed
Entrez PubMed


Against
Entrez PubMed
Entrez PubMed

 

[Hyde12]

I would say it does effect testosterone level, even the studies against, still say it does raise testosterone after surgery although insignificantly.

For
Entrez PubMed
Entrez PubMed
Against
Entrez PubMed
Entrez PubMed

43% raise seems like a pretty significant amount to me.

 

[ItsHectic]

Defenetly, but its weird how 2 studies have diffrent views on what should be simple.

 

[Hyde12]

Defenetly, but its weird how 2 studies have diffrent views on what should be simple.

I bet the second studies were done using men with minor Varicoceles. I have a level 3 one (the biggest possible)

 

[Megazoid]

I think in most cases varicoceles cause multi-factorial issues which in turn cause testicular dysfunction. Testosterone and DHT have a role in determining blood flow through the penis and testes, affecting nitric oxide production. Which links back to what Hyde said, so this in turn could explain why my nut's are for lack of a better word, going nut's. Low T in itself effects blood flow around the body and in turn could be the the cause of the atrophy. Low estridol can effect sperm production and 'technically' cause atrophy due to this. I believe high E2 can cause epididyml abnormalities and blockages when E2 is high.

Androgel (50mg) reduces my LH to 2.2 but brings my total t up to 25/6nmol. Within a few hour's my penis and testicles feel allot more healthy and fuller (for lack of a better word). Which again might back up this theory.

Some men can go through life having bi-lateral varicoceles and never have atrophy or low testosterone until allot later in life (JazSz being a good example). However the sluggish blood flow caused by the varicocele can cause over-heating and tissue damage to the testicle in the long-term.

It's important to remember that varicoceles cause, in most cases, permanent damage to the testicle, tissues and cells (leydig included - though they are alot 'tougher' than sperm production tubules). I believe when the testicles atrophy a degree of compression and a tighter area of leydig cells occur which in turn can cause some degree of dysfunction and reduced binding of the LH signals. I guess a kind of 'domino' effect occurs with varicoceles.

While there is no "average" testosterone level and everyone is different it's assumed that an inter-testicular testosterone level of 23+nmol is required for proper sperm production and transportation, so i guess when your T goes low this might explain the atrophy too. Low E2 can contribute to sperm production problems (which i have myself).

Dr John, the best research paper i have found is here:

Elevation of serum testosterone and free testosterone after embolization of the internal spermatic vein for the treatment of varicocele in infertile men -- Gat et al. 19 (10): 2303 -- Human Reproduction

I have to agree fully with you on this one, get the surgery, see how thing's go but don't expect miracles (i need to honest here, having spoken with alot of varicocele sufferers). I am pretty confident i haven't seen any improvements what so ever with the exception of reduced pain and no more swelling in the scrotum. However using TRT + HCG i am hoping i can restore thing's as i don't have full primary testicular failure. My LH/FSH are both in the normal if not 'perfect' range. Elevated LH would mean leydig cell dysfunction/atrophy.

If you come across any old patient records on the subject Dr John, i would love to hear more about your own personal experiences treating varicocele patients and how they respond to HCG. My other testicle was already atrophied due to being undescended as a child and ironically also suffered from a varicocele in my early teenage years.

 

[KSman]

A long thread.

When a varicocele or other injury reduces the ability of the teste(s) to produce T, if the upper end of the HPTA is working right, then the levels of LH will be high. So in that case, taking HCG will probably not be of value as the LH levels are probably above normal range already. If this is the case and the varicocele is restored and the teste recovers circulation and is has not suffered permanent damage, then there should be enough LH on hand. But perhaps a short shock treatment of HCG might have some value (but I am not saying that that is the case).

When would HCG be of benefit with a repaired varicocele? If the top end of the HTPA is not making LH, then for HCG to be of benefit more than the testes and T, it would have to increase T levels that that might wake up the top end of the HTPA. If the HTPA is not doing the right thing, then it might be from too much E. That is where a SERM might get things going.

I have seen a few guys with this problem on another board who are now happy to be on TRT.

 

[Megazoid]

Thanks for your reply KSMan, i think i sent you a message a little while back on t-nation?

I believe it's more based on "dysfunction" rather than full blown damage. It's difficult to really understand what happens with varicoceles and how they effect the testicle, i believe a lack of nutrients alongside sluggish blood flow are the prime causes.

My actual problems comes from having low E2/DHT. When i apply androgel (even 50mg) i go up to 25/6nmol and my ball's feel alot better. Erections aren't perfect but a good bit better than before.

KSMan, do you know of any varicocele sufferers that are using HCG alongside TRT? I want to use Testim (50mg - or more) daily alongside HCG at least 3 times a week.

 

[Hyde12]

Megazoid, Im not sure that testosterone plays a huge part in Nitric Oxide. I have been doing more research and from what I read, most men recover from Varicoceles after the surgery. Im getting the operation in the morning. Wish me luck.

 

[Megazoid]

You'll be cool Hyde, it's pretty straightforward and you'll be back on the forum tomorrow night i am sure (if limping a little).

Best of luck with the operation tomorrow! Let me know how it goes.

 

[KSman]

Thanks for your reply KSMan, i think i sent you a message a little while back on t-nation?

I believe it's more based on "dysfunction" rather than full blown damage. It's difficult to really understand what happens with varicoceles and how they effect the testicle, i believe a lack of nutrients alongside sluggish blood flow are the prime causes.

My actual problems comes from having low E2/DHT. When i apply androgel (even 50mg) i go up to 25/6nmol and my ball's feel alot better. Erections aren't perfect but a good bit better than before.

KSMan, do you know of any varicocele sufferers that are using HCG alongside TRT? I want to use Testim (50mg - or more) daily alongside HCG at least 3 times a week.

That is me on t-nation.

If you do TRT, you will be fully LH repressed if it is effective [which for some can be problematic for some on transdermals]. Then you can/must use HCG to keep your testes from shutting down. But if not on TRT, as I stated before, the LH levels might be above normal range already as the HPTA tried to get higher T+E levels.

So there were two answers there. If not on TRT, adding HCG might take levels higher than needed, but the HPTA would probably simply reduce LH to get you back to where you were in terms of T+E status.

If you need a boost in your T levels and there is little prospect of you recovering to higher T levels on your own, then TRT+HCG seems to make a lot of sense. E will also recover and you might need AI to maintain libido and mood later. If costs are an issue, injections are certainly the least cost if you can self-inject.

If surgery and recovery make the teste(s) ready to go from a blood flow point if view, the might be profit from HCG and/or SERM as would be used in PCT to kick things into gear, get the testes developed and responsive and get the HP part of the HPTA going again. When we see guys that have botched cycles and PCT who can't get their HPTA to self-recover over time, then it seems that this system can be stuck or trapped. Use if PCT methods to get things running again can work, and in some cases of varicoceles, if blood flow is normalized, then HCG could take care of physical recovery of the testes and create some T to help wake things up. A SERM would encourage resumption of LH. But for some varicoceles after surgery with good blood flow circulation, LH may be ready and willing and HCG might help, but may not be necessary.

I think that for the HPTA to be stuck, bilateral varicoceles might be needed. If one is bad, the HPTA may be working ok and a PCT approach does not seem to have any obvious benefit. The amount of time that a teste was shutdown or starved also speaks to the issue of permanent damage vs recovery. If TRT is required after all is said and done, so be it. We have seen guys [not gear users] in their 20's with very low T. These things happen.

 

[Megazoid]

Very special thanks for the feedback guy's. Dr John, your advice is also appreciated, as is yours KSman. The sad but true fact is i am getting zero support from doctors across here and have to self-medicate which is terrible. I have found a good blood testing lab though and know enough to self-medicate myself (sometimes i think just going by "how you feel" is worthwhile - libido, morning wood, mood, etc) and doing lab's every few months to monitor progress.

Throughout all of this my LH/FSH are totally normal, even when the varicocele induced atrophy. LH has remained at 3.9 and down-regulates to 2.1 when doing androgel at 50mg daily (1 packet). My total T goes to 25nmol and E2 remains low (which i think is maybe my problem - too low E2?). I am getting fresh blood work soon to get a baseline with no TRT and then another a month or two latter with testim at 50mg daily.

Usually guy's with varicoceles (or some form of testicular failure) have elevated LH which is strange as mine is normal. My only theory is that both ball's are still somewhat responding even though they are both atrophied, i was however told they were in the "normal size limits" by a urologist. But they aren't normal size for me (they were normal, adult size before). Not to mention the fact i have ED, low libido and i am suffering all the side effects of low t.

Basically if i do HCG alone i am shooting myself in the foot but it might be worthwhile in restoring testicular size/function. I don't want to cause complete HPTA shutdown (LH = Zero) by doing HCG if it dosen't get me high enough or improve testicular health (size/function). Blood work is very expensive too and i can't afford to keep getting constant tests. A few week's back i was thinking about doing 250iu HCG daily for 3/6 weeks then running Nolvadex for 4 week's afterwards but because my HPTA seem's somewhat normal this wouldn't make sense and maybe PCT isn't the answer if my piturity is working fine. I really feel Dr John is right about this, the less stuff you take the better (plus nolvadex has IGF-1 effects which i don't want).

I was hoping to see improvements after the surgery but haven't yet (though it's still only been about 2/3 months). No size increases and no T improvements (my original level was around 25/30nmol). I am visiting the urologist again for another ultrasound and to check if thing's are working or not. While the varicocele has cleared i am still getting some pain and feel the blood is still polling around in the whole area.

In general i feel allot better on androgel but i don't like the tight scrotum effect i am getting and the reduced ejaculate volume. Is it possible for a guy to use 50mg androgel daily (or testim) and NOT get complete shutdown?

It's almost ironic Dr John because say that HCG will down regulate the leydig cells but at the same time you think TRT + HCG is a good choice I agree with this however, but i really want to try everything before giving into TRT (not saying it's a bad thing - just very expensive for me right now) assuming i have no E2 problems (i am very lean, very little body fat, good build, etc) would you recommend running your own protocol of Testim + HCG? And how much HCG a week? I was considering using Testim (50mg daily - maybe moving up to 75mg if needed) as this should get me into the 500/650 range even with HPTA shutdown and then maybe using HCG at 500iu 3 times a week (mon-wed-fri). In fact maybe lowering this to 250iu HCG would work better 3/4 times a week (mon-wed-fri-sun)?

While you can only offer your opinion (as i am not your patient - but would like to be if my doctor would work with you and not be a **** about this!) it would be appreciated as always.

 

[KSman]

It's almost ironic Dr John because say that HCG will down regulate the leydig cells but at the same time you think TRT + HCG is a good choice

The point is that too much HCG will DR the receptors. 250iu EOD or less will not do that.

 

[Hyde12]

Hi everyone. Just got done with my surgery and yes im limping around a low, it hurts like hell to stand all the way up. On a positive note, the surgery went well and they gave me about 30 percocets for pain:head:

 

[Megazoid]

Very pleased to hear it went well Hyde. What technique did they use and how is the scar?

Did they tie off the veins at kidney/abdominal level or scrotal level?

After you have healed, what will your plan of action be?

 

[Hyde12]

Very pleased to hear it went well Hyde. What technique did they use and how is the scar?

Did they tie off the veins at kidney/abdominal level or scrotal level?

After you have healed, what will your plan of action be?

They cut me at the groin level, and its hurts like crazy. I can already feel some libido returning (believe it or not):woohoo:
and its only been one day!

 

[Megazoid]

Good to hear Hyde, you might be on the road to recovery. When are you going to get blood work done?

 

[Megazoid]

I am seeing the urologist this Tuesday, i really do need luck when dealing with this guy. He can be a nightmare at times and doesn't always want to listen.

My right testicle has always been smaller and dysfunctional since having it injured as a teenager. I think it had a varicocele that magically (?) went away on it's own after a year or two. The spermatic cord has a noticable blockage though (not a varicocele) which i want fixed to see if it will restore more testicular function than present and more importantly reduce the pain. The urologist mentioned it was like a vascotemy had happened.

Regarding left side varicocele i want to get this confirmed that the operation has worked 100%. My nut's are still going nut's and i am not sure if hormones are to blame or bad blood flow. Maybe even more factors? What i am confused with even more is the fact that my LH/FSH are normal and not registering anything "abnormal". I am going to get more test's ran.

At present i am on TRT and feeling a "bit" better using one tube of testim a day. Only been 3 day's since starting Testim. It stinks though so i am going to change back to TestoGel (100mg daily) alongside HCG once everything is fixed and confirmed in the testicular department. I have a girlfriend now that i really love and i have had to refrain from sex because of these problems and because wood isn't too good (nor libido) so i am holding back.

God i hate varicoceles...

 

[Hyde12]

I am seeing the urologist this Tuesday, i really do need luck when dealing with this guy. He can be a nightmare at times and doesn't always want to listen.

My right testicle has always been smaller and dysfunctional since having it injured as a teenager. I think it had a varicocele that magically (?) went away on it's own after a year or two. The spermatic cord has a noticable blockage though (not a varicocele) which i want fixed to see if it will restore more testicular function than present and more importantly reduce the pain. The urologist mentioned it was like a vascotemy had happened.

Regarding left side varicocele i want to get this confirmed that the operation has worked 100%. My nut's are still going nut's and i am not sure if hormones are to blame or bad blood flow. Maybe even more factors? What i am confused with even more is the fact that my LH/FSH are normal and not registering anything "abnormal". I am going to get more test's ran.

At present i am on TRT and feeling a "bit" better using one tube of testim a day. Only been 3 day's since starting Testim. It stinks though so i am going to change back to TestoGel (100mg daily) alongside HCG once everything is fixed and confirmed in the testicular department. I have a girlfriend now that i really love and i have had to refrain from sex because of these problems and because wood isn't too good (nor libido) so i am holding back.

God i hate varicoceles...

I am convinced that Varicoceles somehow tie in to blood flow to the penis because I swear my penis seems like it is re inflating and I am getting random erections for the first time in months:woohoo: I don't know that much on anatomy, but maybe Dr. John can chime in, but Varicoceles somehow effect blood flow to the penis.

 

[Megazoid]

Varicoceles/testicles don't share the same vascular system as the penis, but they do effect hormones which effect blood flow to the penis. Maybe your T is going back up which is a good sign Hyde?

One thing i should mention is that allot of guy's that adding HCG to there TRT regiem makes everything "hang" and look better in general. Maybe Dr John can comment on this? HCG has potent effects on the whole area i think.

 

[Megazoid]

Hyde, How are thing's progressing for you? I hope you have made some good progress over the past few days.

I am going to visit the urologist tonight and really need a good bit off luck while dealing with this guy, hopefully i can get this right side spermatic cord blockage repaired and also he can evaluate the varicocele operation i had.

What is your plan of action now?

 

[Hyde12]

Just a quick update. I'm healing pretty quickly. I did not take any of the percocet they gave me because they contain aspirin and aspirin slows down healing. The past 4 days I have had a pretty good libido and no ED issues. For some reason today, I don't have a good libido, maybe I just need more recovery time?

 

[plymouth city]

Just a quick update. I'm healing pretty quickly. I did not take any of the percocet they gave me because they contain aspirin and aspirin slows down healing.

Your exactly right about that. Its amazing how few people know that.

Personally, I avoid painkillers and pretty much any and all perscription drugs unless absolutely necessary. I get sick? Big deal. I tuff it out.

 

[DragonRider]

Wow. Three pages of replies. Who knew this was such a common problem.

 

[Hyde12]

Your exactly right about that. Its amazing how few people know that.

Personally, I avoid painkillers and pretty much any and all perscription drugs unless absolutely necessary. I get sick? Big deal. I tuff it out.

Yep, the drug companies are evil corporations and I don't want to take their stupid medication so I can stay sick with side effects.

 

[Hyde12]

Wow. Three pages of replies. Who knew this was such a common problem.

Its a very common problem. Most people don't know that they have Varicoceles because they may be very small. Its not until they are a class 3 (like the one that I had) that they are noticeable and painful. I'm starting to think that varicoceles have something to do with failed PCT.

 

[sammowise]

Hi, forum noob here.

I'd be very interested in hearing how this turns out for you, Hyde12. I believe I may be experiencing some of the same problems as the other people in the thread.

I first noticed that I had a varicocele about 1 year ago. At the time I thought nothing of it. I thought it was normal to have veins around there. Anyway, over last summer I noticed that I was getting very few spontaneous erections... once again thought nothing of it for a while. Then over the course of last fall semester I also noticed that I had stopped consistantly getting morning erections and eventually having them go away. Around the time I noticed this I noticed that my arms and shoulders just didn't seem as strong as they used to even though my exercise routines hadn't changed at all. I was getting tired and fatigued all the time and just generally felt weak. I started eating more, but I was/am still losing weight (but no fat). Basically, I just started feeling like total **** for no apparent reason. Oh, and I've had basically no sex drive.


I'd begun suspecting that I have problems with low testosterone based on 2.5 months or so of reading what I can about the subject. At the beginning of this semester I went to the doctors at the university here and told him about my erection/no libido problem. He asked me a bunch of questions and had me do a pretty extensive blood test. Most everything was either normal or really good except for a few things: 1) I had a slightly low RBC count and Hemacrit. 2)Albumin/Globulin ration was slightly high and (what I had been afraid of) 3) total testosterone of 367 ng/dl. I asked the doctor about it and he told me that my reading was totally normal (the lab range was about 240-820). I'm completely unconvinced, however. The lab range encompasses readings for a huge age range and doesn't take into account what an individual's normal levels are. I was sent away with basically no help for my problems.

Since then (last week Wednesday) I've started taking a zinc suppliment. I've noticed a slight increase in my libido and I've gotten a few weak morning erections, but obviously things still aren't too good. Tomorrow I'm going to call the local clinic to get in to see another doctor about this. I'm going to be sure to mention the varicocele and ask about the possibility of getting it repaired.

I apoligize for this rambling reply, I'm just a bit frustrated.

 

[Megazoid]

We are here to help sammowise. It might be too easy to say the varicocele is the cause of all your problems but that would be too easy to say. I think more comprehensive blood work needs done. However varicocele won't be helping matter's that's for sure. Do you have it on one testicle or both?

I have a few questions for you:

1) Did you notice any abnormal testicular changes (shrinkage/atrophy, softness, etc) on the varicocele side?

2) Can you post up complete work including LH/FSH.

3) How big would you class the varicocele (i.e. is it visible easily)?

Your T is low and your symptoms are of low t. Lack of morning erections being a clue. I am in the same boat myself but doing TRT myself and making some improvements in strength and libido/ED.

How do you find your sexual performance/libido in general right now? Can you still get erections?

 

[KSman]

Hi, forum noob here.

I'd be very interested in hearing how this turns out for you, Hyde12. I believe I may be experiencing some of the same problems as the other people in the thread.

I first noticed that I had a varicocele about 1 year ago. At the time I thought nothing of it. I thought it was normal to have veins around there. Anyway, over last summer I noticed that I was getting very few spontaneous erections... once again thought nothing of it for a while. Then over the course of last fall semester I also noticed that I had stopped consistantly getting morning erections and eventually having them go away. Around the time I noticed this I noticed that my arms and shoulders just didn't seem as strong as they used to even though my exercise routines hadn't changed at all. I was getting tired and fatigued all the time and just generally felt weak. I started eating more, but I was/am still losing weight (but no fat). Basically, I just started feeling like total **** for no apparent reason. Oh, and I've had basically no sex drive.


I'd begun suspecting that I have problems with low testosterone based on 2.5 months or so of reading what I can about the subject. At the beginning of this semester I went to the doctors at the university here and told him about my erection/no libido problem. He asked me a bunch of questions and had me do a pretty extensive blood test. Most everything was either normal or really good except for a few things: 1) I had a slightly low RBC count and Hemacrit. 2)Albumin/Globulin ration was slightly high and (what I had been afraid of) 3) total testosterone of 367 ng/dl. I asked the doctor about it and he told me that my reading was totally normal (the lab range was about 240-820). I'm completely unconvinced, however. The lab range encompasses readings for a huge age range and doesn't take into account what an individual's normal levels are. I was sent away with basically no help for my problems.

Since then (last week Wednesday) I've started taking a zinc suppliment. I've noticed a slight increase in my libido and I've gotten a few weak morning erections, but obviously things still aren't too good. Tomorrow I'm going to call the local clinic to get in to see another doctor about this. I'm going to be sure to mention the varicocele and ask about the possibility of getting it repaired.

I apoligize for this rambling reply, I'm just a bit frustrated.

Get copies of your blood work... always, and keep in your files. When you go to a new doc, take blood work with you. That will really help get things going.

 

[sammowise]

We are here to help sammowise. It might be too easy to say the varicocele is the cause of all your problems but that would be too easy to say. I think more comprehensive blood work needs done. However varicocele won't be helping matter's that's for sure. Do you have it on one testicle or both?

I have a few questions for you:

1) Did you notice any abnormal testicular changes (shrinkage/atrophy, softness, etc) on the varicocele side?

2) Can you post up complete work including LH/FSH.

3) How big would you class the varicocele (i.e. is it visible easily)?

Your T is low and your symptoms are of low t. Lack of morning erections being a clue. I am in the same boat myself but doing TRT myself and making some improvements in strength and libido/ED.

How do you find your sexual performance/libido in general right now? Can you still get erections?

It's on the left side. I was informed by my mother that one testicle was undescended at birth and I believe it was the left one. It's always been a bit smaller. There's also some stuff on the right side, but I can't honestly tell if it's a vein or just the epydidymus.

1) I'm pretty sure it's gotten a bit smaller, but I can't say how long it's been happening. No softness, though.

2) I will bring it up when I go to see the doctor.

3) I'm not sure what different classes are. When you pull it against the scrotum, you can definately see that there's a vein running up the side with a widened area in the middle.


On a day to day basis I have basically no libido. I'm still able to get an erection when sex comes up with my gf, but it's not as hard as I remember.

I'm visiting a urologist this Friday to bring up the general issue of hormones/me feeling like ****. I'll mention the varicocele and I'll try to keep you updated.

 

[TShark]

First Post

Hey guys. I have read pretty much this entire post and i think it's awesome that you guys are helping each other out. I have a varicocele as well and I know they can be very frustrating. I was hoping that I could get your opinions on my situation. I am 21 years old and have a stage 3 varicocele over my left testicle. I've had it for around 4-5 years now. So far i have not experienced any negative effects from it besides the occasional pain. However, I realize that varicoceles cause progressive damage to the testicles so there is a good chance i may have problems in the future. Do you guys think it would be better to have the varicocele repaired before any new problems arise? After reading all of the posts I really want to take a pro-active approach. But i also wanted all of your opinions as well. If you guys were in my situation with no serious problems (no atrophy or lowered testosterone as of yet), would you get it repaired anyway? Just to be safe? Any replies will be GREATLY appreciated.

 

[MuscleBound1337]

If you have a stage 3 vericocele like I did, then you probably already have some atrophy in your left testicle.. My urologist sent me to have an ultrasound and they found out it was about a cm. smaller than the right testicle..

The procedure is pretty easy.. You go in and your out in a couple hours... Recovery is pretty quick, I was lifting again in 2 weeks.

 

[sammowise]

I have another two questions for those who have had a procudure done to remove the varicocele:

What type of procudure did you have done?

and

What costs could one expect for such a procedure?

 

[Hyde12]

found this study....interesting

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/tandf/uaan/2000/00000045/00000003/art00009

 

[Megazoid]

Nice one hyde. I seen that study before when i was doing research way back, good article.

I believe varicocele causes "dysfunction" rather than failure. My theory is that the actual secreted T takes longer to get into the blood stream due to the weak blood flow. This in turn leads to lower total T. LH will only elevate when the leydig cells suffer from atrophy or the leydig cell array is reduced (due to tissue death).

I need to go back in and get a venogram done (to check for leaking veins) as the varicocele is still causing pain for me and i am getting reflux/back flow in the veins.

I had a doppler ultrasound done and it showed back flow on aspiration which could be causing my problems. The good new's however was that the testicles were both intact with regards to the echo texture or "meat" of the testicles themself. The urologist said i had shrinkage but NOT atrophy. He described atrophy is as being actual tissue changes and death of the testicle cells/tissues.

How are you progressing yourself? No pain or anything from the varicocele? You need to your get your LH up to 3.9, i don't think you've recovered properly.

 

[Hyde12]

Nice one hyde. I seen that study before when i was doing research way back, good article.

I believe varicocele causes "dysfunction" rather than failure. My theory is that the actual secreted T takes longer to get into the blood stream due to the weak blood flow. This in turn leads to lower total T. LH will only elevate when the leydig cells suffer from atrophy or the leydig cell array is reduced (due to tissue death).

I need to go back in and get a venogram done (to check for leaking veins) as the varicocele is still causing pain for me and i am getting reflux/back flow in the veins.

I had a doppler ultrasound done and it showed back flow on aspiration which could be causing my problems. The good new's however was that the testicles were both intact with regards to the echo texture or "meat" of the testicles themself. The urologist said i had shrinkage but NOT atrophy. He described atrophy is as being actual tissue changes and death of the testicle cells/tissues.

How are you progressing yourself? No pain or anything from the varicocele? You need to your get your LH up to 3.9, i don't think you've recovered properly.

Well, right after the surgery I started feeking good and then my libido took a nose dive again.So, I started taking 6-oxo, ZMA and fenugreek and Im starting to feel much better. I even had some morning wood this morning My left testicle was hurting really really bad this morning. I dont know if its a good sign (like maybe its coming back to life) or a bad sign.

 

[JanSz]

Well, right after the surgery I started feeking good and then my libido took a nose dive again.So, I started taking 6-oxo, ZMA and fenugreek and Im starting to feel much better. I even had some morning wood this morning My left testicle was hurting really really bad this morning. I dont know if its a good sign (like maybe its coming back to life) or a bad sign.

Describe what fenugreek does in this context.

 

[Megazoid]

Difficult to say. Is the pain coming from the veins or spermatic cord or the actual "ball" itself?

 

[Hyde12]

it seems like the actual ball itself

 

[Hyde12]

Describe what fenugreek does in this context.

Helps with libido and semen quantity. Fenugreek is also reported to increase testosterone. Yeah, I know that it raises progesterone but that is only in women.

 

[Hyde12]

Well, they did another ultrasound and said that it looks like I may have epididymitis! This sucks if its not one thing its another!

 

[sammowise]

I finally got my second set of tests back (a week late... they somehow lost them the first time I went in ) So here thery are:

testosterone, total 273 ng/dL 250-1100
testosterone, free 47.7 pg/mL 35.0-155.0
% free testosterone 1.75 1.1-2.8

LH 1.9 mIU/mL 1.5-9.3
FSH 1.4 mIU/mL 1.6-8.0
Prolactin 8.4 ng/mL 2.0-18.0

Based on my (admittedly limited) understanding of the hpta, low LH and FSH probably means my testicles probably aren't the problem, corrent?

The urologist I was seeing said he didn't want to prescribe testosterone replacement since it was still in range. However, he seems to realize that there definately is something wrong, so he's sending my to an endocrinologist instead. (At least he can admit he doesn't know enough about it...)

I'm guessing I should now be looking into the possibility of either 1) pituitary problems of some sort or 2) elevated estrogen levels.

thoughts?

 

[JanSz]

I finally got my second set of tests back (a week late... they somehow lost them the first time I went in ) So here thery are:

testosterone, total 273 ng/dL 250-1100
testosterone, free 47.7 pg/mL 35.0-155.0
% free testosterone 1.75 1.1-2.8

LH 1.9 mIU/mL 1.5-9.3
FSH 1.4 mIU/mL 1.6-8.0
Prolactin 8.4 ng/mL 2.0-18.0

Based on my (admittedly limited) understanding of the hpta, low LH and FSH probably means my testicles probably aren't the problem, corrent?

The urologist I was seeing said he didn't want to prescribe testosterone replacement since it was still in range. However, he seems to realize that there definately is something wrong, so he's sending my to an endocrinologist instead. (At least he can admit he doesn't know enough about it...)

I'm guessing I should now be looking into the possibility of either 1) pituitary problems of some sort or 2) elevated estrogen levels.

thoughts?

1. It would be helpfull to start with more complete test, post what you have, you have mentioned of having extensive test done.
2. Add the E2, DHT, SHBG, Albumin (at least), possibly thyroid and adrenals info.
3. You may want to look into HCG alone first, possibly plus DIM.