VARICOCELE...can it effect testosterone?

Hyde12 · 01-09-2007, 02:58 PM

last time I had them checked they were at 303. Well, I already started the androgel yesterday and today. I am not going to be seen again for another month. should I stop the androgel? I dont really feel anything yet. how long does it take for this stuff to kick in?

Hyde12 · 01-22-2007, 05:49 AM

Megazoid · 01-22-2007, 08:37 AM

Well Hyde, i got my varicocele fixed a few months ago and still no improvements this far. The problem is you can't actually "fix" varicoceles because they have a high chance of recoccuring and because the operation doesn't always work right. I have heard from 3 guy's in the past month (via email) that had normal sized testicles but varicoceles repaired 2/3 years ago and still have low t now with no proper explanation. All three were under 30.

Varicocele causes progressive testicular damage and sometimes the only answer is repairing it but still needing TRT for life. HCG sometimes works but i think the best plan is to use TRT + HCG (maybe Test Cyp + HCG) or a compound cream. Nothing can really be done for varicocele sufferers, i've met a few of them and almost all are on TRT now. HCG might be worth giving a go to spark any life left out of your testicles.

Hyde12 · 01-22-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megazoid

Well Hyde, i got my varicocele fixed a few months ago and still no improvements this far. The problem is you can't actually "fix" varicoceles because they have a high chance of recoccuring and because the operation doesn't always work right. I have heard from 3 guy's in the past month (via email) that had normal sized testicles but varicoceles repaired 2/3 years ago and still have low t now with no proper explanation. All three were under 30.

Varicocele causes progressive testicular damage and sometimes the only answer is repairing it but still needing TRT for life. HCG sometimes works but i think the best plan is to use TRT + HCG (maybe Test Cyp + HCG) or a compound cream. Nothing can really be done for varicocele sufferers, i've met a few of them and almost all are on TRT now. HCG might be worth giving a go to spark any life left out of your testicles.

Did you try clomid yet? Have you been on TRT the whole time? I tried the andro gel for about a week (5grams) and I felt worse then before so I stopped taking it. Im going to get this thing fixed and do a post cycle therapy type protocal.

Hyde12 · 01-22-2007, 11:28 AM

Megazoid, I was looking at your last posts and it seems as though you were on andro gel after you got your varicocle fixed. This could be why you have seen no improvements in testicle function because they are shut down and will not recover. Have you tried Tormifiene?

Megazoid · 01-22-2007, 03:06 PM

Much like you Hyde, i was on TRT only for about a month. I took an allergic skin reaction towards both Androgel and Testim. So i stopped TRT and went solo. However about a day before stopping TRT i got blood taken/tested and my LH/FSH were still in the normal range (LH = 2.4, FSH = 2.1) so all the 50mg a day did was drop my LH from 3.9 to 2.4.

I know for a fact that my LH/FSH are back in range now as they always went back up after stopping TRT.

The fact is varicoceles cause progressive testicular damage and only in some situations does this reverse but it appears not to be normal.

Hyde12 · 01-23-2007, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megazoid

Much like you Hyde, i was on TRT only for about a month. I took an allergic skin reaction towards both Androgel and Testim. So i stopped TRT and went solo. However about a day before stopping TRT i got blood taken/tested and my LH/FSH were still in the normal range (LH = 2.4, FSH = 2.1) so all the 50mg a day did was drop my LH from 3.9 to 2.4.

I know for a fact that my LH/FSH are back in range now as they always went back up after stopping TRT.

The fact is varicoceles cause progressive testicular damage and only in some situations does this reverse but it appears not to be normal.

When you stopped using androgel for that month did you use any post cycle therapy? If you didnt then your testicles would have a hard time recovering even if you didnt have the varicocele. HCG is not a proper post cycle therapy and from what I have read on here and other places it can cause shutdown on its own. You need to get some Clomid/Nolvadex or some Tormifene. You wont get much post cycle therapy advice on here, but you will in the post cycle therapy section of this forum. I believe that with God's help after this surgery that my testicles will heal. Im not just going to sit back and kiss my natural Testosterone good bye.

Megazoid · 01-23-2007, 10:19 AM

I got a blood test run about a week later and my LH had went back to 3.9 on it's own (the original level before TRT).

I do respect your attitude but the problem really is that varicoceles are misunderstood and cause all sort's of testicular problems including internal fibrosis, blood vessel problems, over-heating, etc. Because our nut's have atrophied, damage has been done. This isn't like what secondary hypogonadism suffers experience but actual tissue death (and in most cases cell death). The LeyDig cells dysfunction and cause spikes and valleys in the the T levels.

I've spent almost 4 month so far researching this because much like you i didn't want to give up and had hope, hower this faded when almost all research and urologists pointed to the fact that re-growth dosen't happen in varicocele patients due to the progressive damage caused by varicoceles. It "might" (just "might" be possible) to reverse some of this using HCG.

In "some" cases HCG will regain size and function. If you are young and your testicles are still somewhat in-tact then HCG will work in about 5 out of 10 cases. One urologist suggested 500iu 3 times a week, while another suggested 250iu daily for 3/6 weeks then followed by Nolvadex (20mg) for 4 weeks to restart the HPTA.

I have a few questions for you.

1) How long have you had the varicoceles for?

2) How much atrophy/shrinkage have you experienced since the varicoceles?

3) Have you noticed any skin changes on your scrotum/penis?

4) Is your scrotum constantly "tight" all the time?

5) Can you post recent blood work?

I will keep you posted on my own findings too.

Hyde12 · 01-23-2007, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megazoid

I got a blood test run about a week later and my LH had went back to 3.9 on it's own (the original level before TRT).

I do respect your attitude but the problem really is that varicoceles are misunderstood and cause all sort's of testicular problems including internal fibrosis, blood vessel problems, over-heating, etc. Because our nut's have atrophied, damage has been done. This isn't like what secondary hypogonadism suffers experience but actual tissue death (and in most cases cell death). The LeyDig cells dysfunction and cause spikes and valleys in the the T levels.

I've spent almost 4 month so far researching this because much like you i didn't want to give up and had hope, hower this faded when almost all research and urologists pointed to the fact that re-growth dosen't happen in varicocele patients due to the progressive damage caused by varicoceles. It "might" (just "might" be possible) to reverse some of this using HCG.

In "some" cases HCG will regain size and function. If you are young and your testicles are still somewhat in-tact then HCG will work in about 5 out of 10 cases. One urologist suggested 500iu 3 times a week, while another suggested 250iu daily for 3/6 weeks then followed by Nolvadex (20mg) for 4 weeks to restart the HPTA.

I have a few questions for you.

1) How long have you had the varicoceles for?

2) How much atrophy/shrinkage have you experienced since the varicoceles?

3) Have you noticed any skin changes on your scrotum/penis?

4) Is your scrotum constantly "tight" all the time?

5) Can you post recent blood work?

I will keep you posted on my own findings too.

1) I have had my varicocele for about 6 months now
2)I have a little atrophy in my left testicle, but not too bad
3)no skin changes but it seems to be kind of lifeless if you know what I mean
4)not all the time. my testicles still drop, but not like they used to
5)my last total test reading was 303 I cant remember what the fsh and lh were, but they were withing range

how do you feel on TRT?

Megazoid · 01-23-2007, 06:58 PM

Strangely i had my varicocele for about 6 months too and it caused all manner of problems, in a sentence, my nut's went nut's!

When i went on Androgel i felt pretty good. I had a strange reaction though with my skin (Rash) and not to mention my HPTA still kicking about. I didn't get any shutdown and my total T went back up to 25.1 and my LH/FSH still remained in a very normal (if not 'highish') range. I was getting good benefits from TRT but i didn't like the fact that i was flushing alot and the skin reactions. Otherwise i did notice erection improvements and morning wood more often. My penis also plumped back out to it's normal size and wasn't shrunk up (not sure if you are experiencing this also?).

The problem with TRT is that your nut sack get's like ultra tight all the time and if you have a varicocele it can hurt like hell.

If i am doing TRT again i will be using HCG to promote testicular size and health improvements and to prevent the tight sack thing.

In general are your testicles normal size (2+ inches)? Do they feel different at all (weight, size, density, etc)?

How large is the varicocele (roughly)?

Was your LH around 3/4 (this is considered the "normal level", 2 or below isn't normal)?

I am considering running either Test E + HCG (2/3 times a week) or Testim/Androgel + HCG (3 times a week or more).

Like you i want my natural levels back but this might not be fully possible unless given time so i need to compensate.

Hyde12 · 01-24-2007, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megazoid

Strangely i had my varicocele for about 6 months too and it caused all manner of problems, in a sentence, my nut's went nut's!

When i went on Androgel i felt pretty good. I had a strange reaction though with my skin (Rash) and not to mention my HPTA still kicking about. I didn't get any shutdown and my total T went back up to 25.1 and my LH/FSH still remained in a very normal (if not 'highish') range. I was getting good benefits from TRT but i didn't like the fact that i was flushing alot and the skin reactions. Otherwise i did notice erection improvements and morning wood more often. My penis also plumped back out to it's normal size and wasn't shrunk up (not sure if you are experiencing this also?).

The problem with TRT is that your nut sack get's like ultra tight all the time and if you have a varicocele it can hurt like hell.

If i am doing TRT again i will be using HCG to promote testicular size and health improvements and to prevent the tight sack thing.

In general are your testicles normal size (2+ inches)? Do they feel different at all (weight, size, density, etc)?

How large is the varicocele (roughly)?

Was your LH around 3/4 (this is considered the "normal level", 2 or below isn't normal)?

I am considering running either Test E + HCG (2/3 times a week) or Testim/Androgel + HCG (3 times a week or more).

Like you i want my natural levels back but this might not be fully possible unless given time so i need to compensate.

Ok, I found my blood work...my LH was 2.8 and FSH 3.2 and I even got prolactin which was 9.5 (normal)
The varicocele is pretty big and it seems like its getting bigger all the time. The right side was good before but within the last week, I noticed some dilation there too. I hopt im not getting one on the right side. To be honest I think my varicocele was caused by pro hormone use. The reason I think this is because when my body started to recover after the last cycle, it did it really fast and the valves in my nuts didnt have time to open. I dont know if this is the case but its just a theory. Another thing that I think could have caused it is ROS (reactive oxygen species) and that is a toxic by product of nitric oxide. I was using No2 type products for about a year straight without taking anything to fight the free radical build up. I did some research and found that ROS is one of the causes of Varicoceles! To answer your question do you mean Is each nut 2-2 1/2 inches? For the week that I was on TRT I felt like crap (even worse than before) I think that only 5g of andro gel is only going to get you to the 300 range, which I was already in, so i think that i actually need more like 10g of andro gel. Im going back to the urologist this morning and I pray to God that he can do something for me because I have never been this depressed in my whole life.

Megazoid · 01-24-2007, 09:00 AM

I can relate 110% with you Hyde, this is an absolute nightmare and i wish it would stop too. Depression is the right word to use, my body is in a shambles because of 6 months of suffering from this low t (or "low normal" t). Did you run HCG/Clomid end of cycle?

I can assure you when i find the answers i will let you know but i have been researching like hell for the past 5/6 months trying to find suitable ways of treating this and coming up with very little except that many guy's with varicoceles (fixed or not) still have low t later on in life. You didn't tell me your age or your previous results before the varicocele did damage?

My problem is that my right testicle was already atrophied and dysfunctional from being undescended so i was relying on the one and when that atrophied too i knew i would be stumped and in for trouble.

Your LH is rather low to be honest. 3.9 is the "normal" level that most guy's have. However the low LH might be a good sign for you as no damage has been done to the leydig cells most likely.

How is your E2? Low E2 can cause problems like high E2 and more to the point cause "more" problems for guy's like us because low e2 causes blood flow issue as well as sperm production issues.

Being honest with you i don't think the varicocele is your only worry, i feel your piturity hasn't been restarted properly because your LH/FSH should be higher. This might explain the atrophy too. Have you tried running HCG/Clomid to restart fully and recover from the atrophy?

Alot of guy's can have varicoceles for literally years (even bi-laterial) and have no problems, so i have really started to question why this happened to me. I believe a domino effect occurs in some cases (like mine) and i praying that HCG is the answer (and hopefully for you too).

Varicoceles cannot start large, they always start really small, mine was undetectable to start with. When i got the operation for mine i seen it on the monitor and it looked like a tentacle coming down from my kidney! It messess the veins up high up so in turn your theory could be right about ROS.

I have an appointment with a urologist to check that this operation has worked because i am not 100% convinced. I am getting new blood work done next week to check my current levels. I think they are about the same as before.

The fact you have noticed problems on the right side is pointing more towards my own theory. Low T and low E2 in turn effect blood flow around the body (slow it down somewhat) when the ratio is effected this might explain why i got atrophy and why you might be getting another varicocele. I actually noticed my nut's felt alot better when on androgel and i wasn't getting atrophy that i could notice. Maybe it helped blood flow by raising my total up to 25nmol (about 650/700)?

Maybe we can deal with this together? I am sure the both of us can figure this out. I am seriously thinking about either running HCG daily (250iu daily) alongside Testim at either 5 or 10mg to see how i get on for a few months. I want to try and get back nut size and reap the benefits of TRT until my nut's come back to normal size. I considered running HCG alone but my fear is that it will cause shutdown and 250 might be enough to keep my t up throughout the day. I might try this for a few months till my nut's recover.

Part of me think's my right nut is still working somewhat but i had a very small varicocele on it about 2 year's ago and it went away on it's own. I am going to get this checked and my other testicle to make sure the operation has worked. I don't mind if i need another one but would prefer not to of course.

In the mean time stack up on vit e and c to help the veins and cut out all caffeine based drinks and alcholol, these will aggrevate the small veins in the testicle and lead to problems. I take Vit e at 800iu daily to prevent leydig cell fibrosis occuring and even put on some Vit E cream onto my scrotum to help.

Hyde12 · 01-24-2007, 11:54 AM

Cool. Thanks for all your help and advice. I got back from the urologist and he gave me 3 options to fix my varicocele. one was a cut to the sack another was to the groin and the last one (the one that sounds the best) was the embolization. He said that I would have to come back and talk to his partner for the embolization because he usually does not do the embolizations but he does the groin cut. He went on to tell me that going in through the groin is a good idea, but you run the risk of getting the artery to the testicle severed and that would ruin that testicle forever. So, I am going to try to get the embolization done because that seems like it has the best reviews. Which procedure did you have done? which one do you recommend? I am 28 years old and I really do not want to have low T for the rest of my life. After my last cycle I made the mistake of only using ATD so it messed up my HPTA. I did use Toremifine for a while and that helped really well for about a week and then it stopped working. If this keeps up im going to get some Proviron. At least I will have a sex drive. I dont think that I suffer from low E2. I think my E2 is high because I am really starting to gain some fat around my lower abs and sides and I feel bloated. Im taking Rebound Reloaded and Dim right now, but neither of those are doing anything. I would be careful if I were you with the HCG because it is not your natural LH and at high doses over long periods of time it can kill the leydig cells and it can convert to estrogen just like androgel. Tormifene seems to be the best thing out there right now and it has been the only thing that has at least worked for a little while with me.

DragonRider · 01-24-2007, 05:48 PM

This is so strange this came up. I was diagnosed with a varicocele when I was 15. I'm almost 50, so I've had it most of my life.
But, when the doctor told me it was like, no big deal, it just a varicocele. I ended up going on HRT when I was only 38. I suspect due to my inability to build muscle for the 20 years I had been working out at that time I have always had low test levels.
No one ever treated it like it was a big deal during any of the hundreds of physicals I have had over the years and no one ever suggested surgery to repair it.

Hyde12 · 01-25-2007, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DragonRider

This is so strange this came up. I was diagnosed with a varicocele when I was 15. I'm almost 50, so I've had it most of my life.
But, when the doctor told me it was like, no big deal, it just a varicocele. I ended up going on HRT when I was only 38. I suspect due to my inability to build muscle for the 20 years I had been working out at that time I have always had low test levels.
No one ever treated it like it was a big deal during any of the hundreds of physicals I have had over the years and no one ever suggested surgery to repair it.

I have been laughed at by doctors too for suggesting that a varicocele will cause low testosterone. I dont understand how they can think otherwise because a varicocele will degrade the testicle and most of your testosterone is produced in the testes so obviously they wont put out the same test as a healthy testicle. The key to getting it fixed is to make sure you tell the doc that it hurts really bad. Mine really does hurt bad. Do you have a large varicocele that can be felt by hand? Those are the worst ones and that is like the one that I have.