DIM

[LMuscle]

Does DIM only lower estrogen, or does it lower other hormones as well? Will it lower estradiol so much as to cause joint pain? I was thinking about using DIM powder once in a while. Arimadex and other AI's cause me severe joint pain and weakness, so I need something not so strong.

 

[sammpedd88]

Does DIM only lower estrogen, or does it lower other hormones as well? Will it lower estradiol so much as to cause joint pain? I was thinking about using DIM powder once in a while. Arimadex and other AI's cause me severe joint pain and weakness, so I need something not so strong.

DIM didn't work for me so I had to start taking Arimidex. I know a few people that DIM works for. How much Arimidex were you taking?

 

[Jcc7220]

When do you find the need to take dim or arimidex are you on a cycle?

 

[sammpedd88]

When do you find the need to take dim or arimidex are you on a cycle?

Don't know if you were asking me or OP but I'm on TRT and have to take an AI.

 

[Jcc7220]

And dim is considered an AI?

 

[mike33511]

And dim is considered an AI?

From Examine:

"It has potent effects on estrogen metabolism and is able to keep the body relatively balanced (by preventing either drastic increases or decreases in estrogen). In small amounts, it can both inhibit the aromatase enzyme (and prevent conversion of testosterone into estrogen) and it can act on more potent forms of estrogen and convert them into less potent forms; this conversion reduces the overall effects of estrogen in the body. However, taking too much DIM at once can actually induce the aromatase enzyme and act in the opposite manner and increase estrogen synthesis."

 

[Ricky10]

There is conflicting data on this one; as is true with many supplements in this category. Many sources classify if as an anti-androgen. So yes...in this case you would be correct in saying that it could possibly lower other hormones.

Given this, I think it is best to stay away from this one..

 

[sammpedd88]

There is conflicting data on this one; as is true with many supplements in this category. Many sources classify if as an anti-androgen. So yes...in this case you would be correct in saying that it could possibly lower other hormones.

Given this, I think it is best to stay away from this one..

Why would you say stay away from it? Most integrative medicine dr's that prescribe TRT recommending starting with DIM and zinc to help control high E2. It does work for some people, for me it did not.

 

[justhere4comm]

Why would you say stay away from it? Most integrative medicine dr's that prescribe TRT recommending starting with DIM and zinc to help control high E2. It does work for some people, for me it did not.

On TRT now and using a Sub Q protocol every 3.5 days, with DIM; Pregnenolone, and DHEA which is working out well so far. All numbers were normal but my test was 400 only and I didn't quite feel well enough at that number so I have upped my dose to 75mg every 3.5 days. I'll be getting bloods in another 4 weeks and go from there. Feeling better after 2 weeks, and I think this might be the right dose for me.

Edit: I'm a bit on my own here as my doctor trusts I'm in good hands with my wife who runs the lab at the hospital. He's right, but I'm pretty much doing everything. I communicate with my doc through the office's secure web portal. It's pretty tight. I like to give him updates as I'm the only one of his patients on this protocol.

 

[The Matrix]

DIM does not lower estrogen it just shifts the metabolism of 16 to 2 OHE.
The same thing can be achieved with iodine as it will shift the 16 OHE to e3. This is why iodine is highly protective in breast tissue in females
I often suggest DIM in mold cases ad it has a huge impact on immune system modulation as well as it alters gene expression as noted in clinically studies as it turn on Nrf2.
I also fine it helpful with viral loads as well

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24466240

 

[kisaj]

I wish we could sticky some facts on DIM because way too many guys are getting the impression that it lowers estrogen or acts like an AI. It metabolizes the bad to good- so it is good to take, but not to actually lower e2.

 

[Jcc7220]

Would it be better to take on cycle or pct

 

[kisaj]

It doesn't matter, it can be taken daily as a staple. It is good for you.

 

[Jcc7220]

What kind of dosage would you recommend

 

[kisaj]

No recommendations, but I take 100mg daily. My wife does as well.

 

[The Matrix]

I have shifted to focusing on researching botanicals for lower estrogen as there are many out there that have anti aromatase properties that look promising to replacing AI's in the near future.

 

[kisaj]

Keep us in the loop if anything can be disclosed

 

[Ninjo]

I have shifted to focusing on researching botanicals for lower estrogen as there are many out there that have anti aromatase properties that look promising to replacing AI's in the near future.

Why are you looking to replace the AI with botanicals? I've been on TRT for almost 5 years and take 2mg Arimidex/wk with no issues. Please enlighten me if you are aware of any negatives. Thank you.

 

[mike33511]

Why are you looking to replace the AI with botanicals? I've been on TRT for almost 5 years and take 2mg Arimidex/wk with no issues. Please enlighten me if you are aware of any negatives. Thank you.

That's a lot of Arimidex! I assume you've had bloods to confirm that you E2 isn't too low? What's your test dose?

 

[Ninjo]

That's a lot of Arimidex! I assume you've had bloods to confirm that you E2 isn't too low? What's your test dose?

Yup, i do bloodwork every 12 weeks...trt dose is 200mg test cyp/wk split into two doses

 

[The Matrix]

If you are in opiates or pain killers it can impact cyp3d4 which will inhibit antii aromatases. I have cases due to being on Percocet and other meds need up to 1
Mgs a day

 

[The Matrix]

Long term AI I have experience increase memory issues and alters my moods. Being aspergers, any impact of neurological inflammtion or hormone shifts can significantly alter my chemistry. It has nothing to do with e2 levels because they had been stable and still AI causing cognitive issues. Since I stopped them memory has been sharp. I can not afford to slip up at any level. This is my own experience as many very well known HRT share same view. This is my own experiences, but has been supported by others

 

[UCSMiami]

Side effects to DIM?

Can I get enough from diet? I have cruciferous veggies every weekday.

 

[The Matrix]

With out proper Stomach HCL you will not get the benefits from cruciferous veggies to cover to DIM. This is why IC3 is a waste on many level with people with chronic illness
Majority of population have low stomach acid from chronic stress. This is one of the factors to how stress promotes certain forms of cancer due to low HCL increasing intestinal dysbiosis altering the metabolism of proteins, carbs and fats to proinflammatory response.

Dim can increase e2 in presence of a viral load as I see this a lot clinically

 

[UCSMiami]

With out proper Stomach HCL you will not get the benefits from cruciferous veggies to cover to DIM. This is why IC3 is a waste on many level with people with chronic illness
Majority of population have low stomach acid from chronic stress. This is one of the factors to how stress promotes certain forms of cancer due to low HCL increasing intestinal dysbiosis altering the metabolism of proteins, carbs and fats to proinflammatory response.

Dim can increase e2 in presence of a viral load as I see this a lot clinically

plain english for the bold sections ? what is IC3? Is increased E2 good or bad?

 

[Ninjo]

plain english for the bold sections ? what is IC3? Is increased E2 good or bad?

I3C is Indole-3-Carbinol

 

[Ricky10]

Why would you say stay away from it? Most integrative medicine dr's that prescribe TRT recommending starting with DIM and zinc to help control high E2. It does work for some people, for me it did not.

Doctors don't know everything...you have to advocate for yourself.

This is just one of many sources;

http://atpscience.com/dim-diindolylmethane-the-most-potent-plant-anti-androgen/

 

[nova6868]

But doesn't this concern about anti-androgen effect only apply to high doses?

 

[sammpedd88]

Doctors don't know everything...you have to advocate for yourself.

This is just one of many sources;

http://atpscience.com/dim-diindolylmethane-the-most-potent-plant-anti-androgen/

Very true to the fact Dr's don't know everything. That's why I go to an Integrative Medicine Dr. are you familiar with these types of Dr's? If not, research them.

The issues with DIM are from high doses, not low doses like good Dr's wound prescribe.

 

[kisaj]

Good info to know, though. As many people think DIM lowers estrogen, the same may think that more is better.

 

[The Matrix]

DIM also stimulate immune system to kill virus which can increase e2 as I have seen in many cases when there is a viral load

 

[UCSMiami]

So low dose DIM is ok and high dose DIM is bad?

 

[The Matrix]

Depends on the case,
person's individual biochemistry and underlying pathology

 

[Ricky10]

So low dose DIM is ok and high dose DIM is bad?

There are so many "dosage recommendations" for DIM out there. Then you have DIM products with bioavailability enhancement..or are they? My prior post with the link indicated that a mere 100mg per day (which is a relatively low/average dose) indicates some very undesirable effects.

If it is worth it to you to run bloodwork after various doses and/or versions of DIM products to see if it is having any positive impact on estrogen balance without sacrificing testosterone and DHT...have at it!

I would be interested to see your results...

 

[UCSMiami]

There are so many "dosage recommendations" for DIM out there. Then you have DIM products with bioavailability enhancement..or are they? My prior post with the link indicated that a mere 100mg per day (which is a relatively low/average dose) indicates some very undesirable effects.

If it is worth it to you to run bloodwork after various doses and/or versions of DIM products to see if it is having any positive impact on estrogen balance without sacrificing testosterone and DHT...have at it!

I would be interested to see your results...

I am scheduled for my next physical in Dec 2017. Will wait until a month before the test to try DIM and see the results. I do consume a healthy amount of cruciferous foodstuffs as is.

 

[The Matrix]

There are so many "dosage recommendations" for DIM out there. Then you have DIM products with bioavailability enhancement..or are they? My prior post with the link indicated that a mere 100mg per day (which is a relatively low/average dose) indicates some very undesirable effects.

If it is worth it to you to run bloodwork after various doses and/or versions of DIM products to see if it is having any positive impact on estrogen balance without sacrificing testosterone and DHT...have at it!

I would be interested to see your results...

Blood is not an accurate measure to see if DIM is working, but rather a 24 hour urine hormone metabolites from Dutch, genova, meridian Rhein labs

 

[JCR97]

Blood is not an accurate measure to see if DIM is working, but rather a 24 hour urine hormone metabolites from Dutch, genova, meridian Rhein labs

From a bodybuilding standpoint and your personal/clinical experience how would you describe benefits of DIM and at what dosage would you take it for the average lifter? I am fully aware that everyone has there own pathology but for the majority of the population what does this reflect?

 

[The Matrix]

I have found with increases of gene expressions we need to be more proactive of taking supplements especially ones that have not only hormone shifting capacity, but also immune modulating effect. The more we are learning some supplements are turning on an off other genes people may not be aware of. What started out as taking a supplement such has DIM for bodybuilding is now turning out to be a huge turn key for unknown variables. When messing with ant thing endocrine system wise get a baseline and go from there. The new information we are researching on extra cellular matrix vs intercellular matrix is absolutely next step in cellular medicine which ties in to all these endocrine and immune system switches associated with DIM

 

[JCR97]

I have found with increases of gene expressions we need to be more proactive of taking supplements especially ones that have not only hormone shifting capacity, but also immune modulating effect. The more we are learning some supplements are turning on an off other genes people may not be aware of. What started out as taking a supplement such has DIM for bodybuilding is now turning out to be a huge turn key for unknown variables. When messing with ant thing endocrine system wise get a baseline and go from there. The new information we are researching on extra cellular matrix vs intercellular matrix is absolutely next step in cellular medicine which ties in to all these endocrine and immune system switches associated with DIM

Ok thank you I will definitely wait on more research before taking DIM I do have a bottle left at home that I took halfway but I won't be taking it I want to know what those unknown variables turn out to be and even if it will take a few years to finalize research

 

[The Matrix]

Get properly evaluated from testing suggested above
Often I may suggest iodoral which can do the same thing DIM does but shift 16OHE to e3

 

[BBiceps]

So low dose DIM is ok and high dose DIM is bad?

What is an high and low dose?

 

[JCR97]

What is an high and low dose?

200mg is usually the avg. Therefore IMO <200mg=low >200mg=high.

 

[BBiceps]

200mg is usually the avg. Therefore IMO <200mg=low >200mg=high.

Ok, thanks, I got some DIM that's 300mg, that's shouldn't be too bad right?

 

[JCR97]

Ok, thanks, I got some DIM that's 300mg, that's shouldn't be too bad right?

That's a little high man I would dose it every other day. Like training days take it and non training don't.

 

[BBiceps]

That's a little high man I would dose it every other day. Like training days take it and non training don't.

Thanks!

 

[Barca1323]

Does DIM work just as well if taken every other day or does it need to be taken daily? I have the 300mg plus 10mg bioprene capsules.

 

[JCR97]

Does DIM work just as well if taken every other day or does it need to be taken daily? I have the 300mg plus 10mg bioprene capsules.

Id say no it would be better to dose smaller dosages every day but since you have 300mg it's better just enough than too much so dose it every 2nd day.

 

[Barca1323]

I’ve actually been feeling pretty good on the 300mg dim so I may stick with it for a full bottle so 4 months to see if the longer I’m on it the more it helps. I do feel like I may be recovering a bit faster than normal and all that has changed is the addition of the supp.

 

[BBiceps]

I’ve actually been feeling pretty good on the 300mg dim so I may stick with it for a full bottle so 4 months to see if the longer I’m on it the more it helps. I do feel like I may be recovering a bit faster than normal and all that has changed is the addition of the supp.

Did you ed or eod?

 

[The Matrix]

Dosages range between 100-400 mgs of dim
I suggest it be taken with a meal since it is fat soluble