Creatine affecting TRT?

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    Creatine affecting TRT?


    Quick question, before starting TRT I used creatine frequently for about 10 years. Is it ok to continue using creatine while on TRT? I haven't used it since I started TRT almost a year ago.

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    Yes
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    Remember, your TRT will elevate your E2 which equals water retention in your muscles, as will the creatine. This could work well on a bulk, but might make your muscles look smooth. I quite using Creatine when I started TRT, just didn't see the point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpinecoach
    Remember, your TRT will elevate your E2 which equals water retention in your muscles, as will the creatine. This could work well on a bulk, but might make your muscles look smooth. I quite using Creatine when I started TRT, just didn't see the point.
    If you didn't see the point then you don't understand creatine...

    It's so much more then water retention.

    Also water retention from high E2 levels is mostly subdermal... if your taking creatine right (after working out with carbs) and not over dosing (only 5g/day max) then the increased water retention is intra muscular which increases atp stores and intracellular nutrient delivery.

    If your having increased water retention issues from high Est levels then treat that problem by lowering your E2, not by removing another actually beneficial dietary supplement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough
    If you didn't see the point then you don't understand creatine...

    It's so much more then water retention.

    Also water retention from high E2 levels is mostly subdermal... if your taking creatine right (after working out with carbs) and not over dosing (only 5g/day max) then the increased water retention is intra muscular which increases atp stores and intracellular nutrient delivery.

    If your having increased water retention issues from high Est levels then treat that problem by lowering your E2, not by removing another actually beneficial dietary supplement.
    You make a valid point. I stand corrected.
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    I don't have any water retention issues with e2, so I guess I'll use creatine again like I used to. Funny thing is that I used to be stronger a year ago on creatine than I am on TRT. My testosterone levels are higher than they've probably ever been in my entire life, but I was stronger when they were lower and I supplemented creatine. For example, I used to flat bench 150lb dumbells x 6 with not much problem. Now I'm down to 140lb x 6. Doesn't make sense to me. I thought a high test level would make me a powerhouse, guess not?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lexmuscle
    I don't have any water retention issues with e2, so I guess I'll use creatine again like I used to. Funny thing is that I used to be stronger a year ago on creatine than I am on TRT. My testosterone levels are higher than they've probably ever been in my entire life, but I was stronger when they were lower and I supplemented creatine. For example, I used to flat bench 150lb dumbells x 6 with not much problem. Now I'm down to 140lb x 6. Doesn't make sense to me. I thought a high test level would make me a powerhouse, guess not?
    creatine supplies atp.... basically immediate use fuel... you can be an insane powerhouse, but without the fuel you won't even be able to run.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    creatine supplies atp.... basically immediate use fuel... you can be an insane powerhouse, but without the fuel you won't even be able to run.
    So would creatine then cause the body to not use food for energy? and therefore cause fat gain?

    I am 3 days into TRT at age 24. My levels were 288 with free test 28... I am wondering what supps I should continue to use... I will be using erase for 8 weeks on/ 4 off... And cycling daa, nettle, Anabeta, and probably a prolactin control supp so as to hit different pathways every month or two.. Any other ideas/suggestions? I've never used/liked creatine for the water retention issue but was planning on using in Jan/feb for a bulk...
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    Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza

    So would creatine then cause the body to not use food for energy? and therefore cause fat gain?

    I am 3 days into TRT at age 24. My levels were 288 with free test 28... I am wondering what supps I should continue to use... I will be using erase for 8 weeks on/ 4 off... And cycling daa, nettle, Anabeta, and probably a prolactin control supp so as to hit different pathways every month or two.. Any other ideas/suggestions? I've never used/liked creatine for the water retention issue but was planning on using in Jan/feb for a bulk...
    No, not at all. Atp is immediate energy stores, glycogen sites are still utilized as well. Both need to be replenished. Data only created once those stores are filled and begin to overflow. Diet dictates this, not creatine supplementation.

    A healthy diet with complex carbs will help glycogen and while creatine can be obtained through eating red meat, by supplementing with creatine directly you can do so much more easily and quickly(if it's even possibly to consume enough red meat to get in 5-10g of straight creatine).

    Really one should take creatine after workouts only, when insulin sensitivity is highest(or even better, with a insulin type supplement). This means it will be shuttled into intra muscular stores and with reasonable doses(usually no more then 5g) minimal creatinine will be created. This will minimize bloated looking muscles and sub dermal water retention and also minimize strain on the kidneys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough
    No, not at all. Atp is immediate energy stores, glycogen sites are still utilized as well. Both need to be replenished. Data only created once those stores are filled and begin to overflow. Diet dictates this, not creatine supplementation.

    A healthy diet with complex carbs will help glycogen and while creatine can be obtained through eating red meat, by supplementing with creatine directly you can do so much more easily and quickly(if it's even possibly to consume enough red meat to get in 5-10g of straight creatine).

    Really one should take creatine after workouts only, when insulin sensitivity is highest(or even better, with a insulin type supplement). This means it will be shuttled into intra muscular stores and with reasonable doses(usually no more then 5g) minimal creatinine will be created. This will minimize bloated looking muscles and sub dermal water retention and also minimize strain on the kidneys.
    Gotcha.. I rarely eat red meat bc it's hard to digest for me and I'm wary of the added hormones.. Grass fed is another story but I'd rather stick to chicken and fish! So given that I only have red meat like twice a month, I'm assuming, it would be beneficiL to give it a shot suppelementing.. I've been looking at SNS mag creatine chelate .. I use a GDA so that sounds like what u are suggesting
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    No matter when I ever took creatine, it made me look bloated and soft. It's always been like this, and very annoying because it was a rock and a hard place. I was so much stronger on creatine, but looked fat.

    Hemavol ftw!
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    Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza

    Gotcha.. I rarely eat red meat bc it's hard to digest for me and I'm wary of the added hormones.. Grass fed is another story but I'd rather stick to chicken and fish! So given that I only have red meat like twice a month, I'm assuming, it would be beneficiL to give it a shot suppelementing.. I've been looking at SNS mag creatine chelate .. I use a GDA so that sounds like what u are suggesting
    ... you think chicken breasts get as huge as they do now days without hormones? And constantly eating fish will increase your likelihood of heavy metal poisoning (i think most suggested is 2 times a week).

    There are many other natural hormones and nutrients in red meat that very helpful for both hormone and muscle production. I wouldn't abstain from it outright but instead east everything in moderation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    ... you think chicken breasts get as huge as they do now days without hormones? And constantly eating fish will increase your likelihood of heavy metal poisoning (i think most suggested is 2 times a week).

    There are many other natural hormones and nutrients in red meat that very helpful for both hormone and muscle production. I wouldn't abstain from it outright but instead east everything in moderation.
    Organic chicken is much less expensive than beef lol but to each their own, not saying you're wrong or disagreeing with your point, just not a red meat fan as much as pork, turkey, chicken, ham, tuna, salmon, bass, etc lol. Sadly, can u really trust any food/supplement label now a days??
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    Back to more important stuff--

    after initially feeling amazing the first 4-5 days, I'm slowly starting to lose the swagger and mojo so to speak that I had regained upon starting.. Also noticing sleep quality returning to the poor side and more body aches returnjng... Is this normal, would this mean that I am leveling out and will need a higher dose soon? Also noticing libido and erection frequency decreasing ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj
    No matter when I ever took creatine, it made me look bloated and soft. It's always been like this, and very annoying because it was a rock and a hard place. I was so much stronger on creatine, but looked fat.

    Hemavol ftw!
    Hemavol is great and could be used to make creatine work better using less. But instead I'd use other methods AND hemavol.

    Take it alongside a gda (nutrient partitioner/insulin mimicer) and you don't even have to take half as much and still l get positive effects with zero bloating.

    Like take slin sane(pslin or something with a similar profile), 5 min later "melt" 2.5g of bulk creatine monohydrate in HOT water(about 3oz in a cup, microwave for 1 min), stir it till clear/invisible, add some ice water and down it. At the 15 min mark eat a large meal containing 60-100g carbs and 30-60g protein.

    Easiest way to do this is with a cup of traditional whole oats blended dry into powder, 2 cups skim milk, 2 scoops most pro powder and if your not allergic adding a whole/half banana will help considerably to widen the spectrum of carbs and add vital nutrients like potassium which should help increase intracellular hydration.

    All this is done in preparation for your workout. First time 2 hours prior to working out. I'd do this cause it's a lot to digest but the gda does speed the process considerably. I found that i feel fine to workout 1.5 hours after finishing my shake.

    Most other supps like hemavol can be taken at the 30 min pre point...but I'd personally avoid stimmy pre workouts as your strength is already going to be of the charts and pumps are going to be insane, even without hemavol... plus the idea is hydration, not dehydration which most pre's will do to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza
    Back to more important stuff--

    after initially feeling amazing the first 4-5 days, I'm slowly starting to lose the swagger and mojo so to speak that I had regained upon starting.. Also noticing sleep quality returning to the poor side and more body aches returnjng... Is this normal, would this mean that I am leveling out and will need a higher dose soon? Also noticing libido and erection frequency decreasing ...
    blood tests are the only way to tell anything... but are you taking an ai?

    Honestly if not, don't start, let the doc see what's really happening and bump it accordingly or add a scrpit for an ai.

    How long till your next appointment?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza
    Back to more important stuff--

    after initially feeling amazing the first 4-5 days, I'm slowly starting to lose the swagger and mojo so to speak that I had regained upon starting.. Also noticing sleep quality returning to the poor side and more body aches returnjng... Is this normal, would this mean that I am leveling out and will need a higher dose soon? Also noticing libido and erection frequency decreasing ...

    It's probably your natural production shutting down, leaving you with what the patch provides. If the starting dose is too low for you, it might not even replace what you had to begin with. You'll have to see what shows up on your labs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    blood tests are the only way to tell anything... but are you taking an ai?

    Honestly if not, don't start, let the doc see what's really happening and bump it accordingly or add a scrpit for an ai.

    How long till your next appointment?
    I was on licogenix and bulbine prior to starting and when the diagnosing bloods were drawn. He said not to stop taking it. My next bloods will be on November 2nd (16 days after starting)

    I plan on using a stronger ai in the future like erase.. Inwas just giving lico a shot.. It was working great in reducin estrogen PRIOR to starting the patch, but once i started, water began to return.

    Quote Originally Posted by breezy11

    It's probably your natural production shutting down, leaving you with what the patch provides. If the starting dose is too low for you, it might not even replace what you had to begin with. You'll have to see what shows up on your labs.
    This is what I was afraid of. I'm a little upset bc my fsh and lh numbers were good, but my test and free test was so low and he was kinda confused by that. There's something causing my body to not product the T, but it's not pituitary related...

    I'm really worried about infertility issues arising from this... If they should, could it be reversed by stopping the trt and getting on rx stuff to get my body producing on it's own? I'm 24 and my gf is baby crazy. And wants a baby to come out of her, not adopt.. And she ain't putting anyone else's swimmers in her pool! We would get married first, just talking down the road.. Plus my son has to go to a d1 collee for football like I couldnt bc of health issues the 2nd half of my high school career.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza

    This is what I was afraid of. I'm a little upset bc my fsh and lh numbers were good, but my test and free test was so low and he was kinda confused by that. There's something causing my body to not product the T, but it's not pituitary related...

    I'm really worried about infertility issues arising from this... If they should, could it be reversed by stopping the trt and getting on rx stuff to get my body producing on it's own? I'm 24 and my gf is baby crazy. And wants a baby to come out of her, not adopt.. And she ain't putting anyone else's swimmers in her pool! We would get married first, just talking down the road.. Plus my son has to go to a d1 collee for football like I couldnt bc of health issues the 2nd half of my high school career.
    I don't know much about the proper treatment, but you could ask your doc about Clomid or HCG. However, if your pituitary hormones were good, the low T could be primary, and I don't think they would help. If you're currently fertile, you could freeze your "swimmers" to have as a backup plan...or you could look further into finding/possibly correcting the source of the problem before lifelong TRT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by breezy11

    I don't know much about the proper treatment, but you could ask your doc about Clomid or HCG. However, if your pituitary hormones were good, the low T could be primary, and I don't think they would help. If you're currently fertile, you could freeze your "swimmers" to have as a backup plan...or you could look further into finding/possibly correcting the source of the problem before lifelong TRT.
    Yea.. Like in terms if freezing, there's places that do that .. But it's expensive no? Could I just like freeze it myself? Lol serious dead as$ question.

    I will press him to try and figure something out to get natty production up... I was surprised he jumped right Ito trt
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    Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza

    Yea.. Like in terms if freezing, there's places that do that .. But it's expensive no? Could I just like freeze it myself? Lol serious dead as$ question.

    I will press him to try and figure something out to get natty production up... I was surprised he jumped right Ito trt
    Haha I don't think throwing it in the freezer would work. I have no clue what it would cost, but you probably have to keep paying as long as its being stored.

    I had low T from malabsorption and I'm doing much better since figuring it out.
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    Btw... did you ever give daa and high dose macuna a try?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough
    Btw... did you ever give daa and high dose macuna a try?
    Yes, raised my estrogen way up .. Only can take daa with an AI.. but even still my levels were low 300 with heavy supplementing.. Recently they just continues to drop DESPITE supplementing!

    As of tonight, my balls are starting to get weird pains
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    So I read this treatment would be ideal:

    - 50mg Testosterone enanthate/cypionate every third day.

    - 0.25mg Arimidex every third day.

    - 500IU HCG every third day.

    Thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza
    So I read this treatment would be ideal:

    - 50mg Testosterone enanthate/cypionate every third day.

    - 0.25mg Arimidex every third day.

    - 500IU HCG every third day.

    Thoughts?
    tell your doc that the patch sucks, you still feel like crap and let him tailor a dose to you individually....

    The next logical step is injection especially if you voice concerns regarding using androgel cause you have constant intimate contact with your lady.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough

    tell your doc that the patch sucks, you still feel like crap and let him tailor a dose to you individually....

    The next logical step is injection especially if you voice concerns regarding using androgel cause you have constant intimate contact with your lady.
    Will do
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    Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza
    So I read this treatment would be ideal:

    - 50mg Testosterone enanthate/cypionate every third day.

    - 0.25mg Arimidex every third day.

    - 500IU HCG every third day.

    Thoughts?
    There is no standard "ideal" treatment, as the way people react to the same doses is highly individual. It would be in your best interest to stop all supplements that could affect your labs and establish where you stand from the test alone. If not, you'll never be able to dial in what would be "ideal" for you. You should have found out if your low T is primary or secondary before starting treatment as well. If its primary, HCG would be a waste of time.
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    HCG is a complete waste of time on TRT and if you get your test dialed in, you won't need to worry about an AI.

    I notice that you have so many questions and concerns about TRT, that it tells me you didn't really do everything you should have before starting. You need to be working closely with your doctor and/or endo to run labs and get this nailed down. To truly get to where you need to be with the least amount of test and no other additional items needed- takes work and time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by breezy11

    There is no standard "ideal" treatment, as the way people react to the same doses is highly individual. It would be in your best interest to stop all supplements that could affect your labs and establish where you stand from the test alone. If not, you'll never be able to dial in what would be "ideal" for you. You should have found out if your low T is primary or secondary before starting treatment as well. If its primary, HCG would be a waste of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj
    HCG is a complete waste of time on TRT and if you get your test dialed in, you won't need to worry about an AI.

    I notice that you have so many questions and concerns about TRT, that it tells me you didn't really do everything you should have before starting. You need to be working closely with your doctor and/or endo to run labs and get this nailed down. To truly get to where you need to be with the least amount of test and no other additional items needed- takes work and time.

    Errr. I agree. It all kinda happened all at once honestly, inwasnt expecting him to prescribe anything. I met with him at 4 o'clock and by 9pm I had my patch. I tried to research and ask him as many questions as incould think of while in his office. He said "I want to give u a 30 day trial" to we how it affects the levels. And I just really wanted to get it started bc my symptoms were so bad on a daily basis. Now that it's been almost a week and have had the opportunity to learn more about the whole process of treatment, I know what to ask for and what to expect moving forward and will be much more prepared. It is only a 2mg patch, so its not like im shooting 100mg a week.. It's 14 a week essentially.. But I agree I need to learn and nail down a lot of the ins and outs. Thanks for being helpful as u are guys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpinecoach

    You make a valid point. I stand corrected.
    Holy ****!!!! First time I've seen that in a long time. Humble, I like this guy...
    Quote Originally Posted by lexmuscle
    I don't have any water retention issues with e2, so I guess I'll use creatine again like I used to. Funny thing is that I used to be stronger a year ago on creatine than I am on TRT. My testosterone levels are higher than they've probably ever been in my entire life, but I was stronger when they were lower and I supplemented creatine. For example, I used to flat bench 150lb dumbells x 6 with not much problem. Now I'm down to 140lb x 6. Doesn't make sense to me. I thought a high test level would make me a powerhouse, guess not?
    I wouldn't necessarilylook to creatine as the culprit of strength loss bud. Supplements are a very minute part of the puzzle. You should be much stronger from the testosterone therapy compared to DC'ing creatine.



    Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza

    I was on licogenix and bulbine prior to starting and when the diagnosing bloods were drawn. He said not to stop taking it. My next bloods will be on November 2nd (16 days after starting)
    I usually don't say anything on direct advice from a physician BUT that seems very irresponsible to me to have you continue something that has the ability to manipulate hormone levels. The reason being is that you won't get an accurate baseline reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj
    HCG is a complete waste of time on TRT and if you get your test dialed in, you won't need to worry about an AI.
    I disagree... HCG can be very helpful in preventing complete shut down.

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    I know. Thanks valdez
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    Oof.. Woke up extremely unrested and lethargic.. Dreading my workout :/ wtf, a few days ago I felt like a champ ..
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    Yeah, I agree. HCG is definitely useful, especially for those that are still going to want children. I also agree that you gotta quit taking all the hormonal supps. You won't have a clue what is doing what in your body.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tenntarheel
    Yeah, I agree. HCG is definitely useful, especially for those that are still going to want children. I also agree that you gotta quit taking all the hormonal supps. You won't have a clue what is doing what in your body.
    So y wouldn't the dr have prescribed hcg from the get go? I'm 24, def need to be able to have kids
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    Quote Originally Posted by chedapalooza

    So y wouldn't the dr have prescribed hcg from the get go? I'm 24, def need to be able to have kids
    Not all Dr's offer HCG as a protocol. Being that you're on androgel I wouldn't think your Dr is one of the more progressive in the field.

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    Doctors and endos will not prescribe HCG in almost any case. You can beg and plead and they just don't do it. About the only way to get HCG is to go to a clinic that specializes in HRT. The draw back is that you tend to spend a lot and get filled up on things you don't really need. Or you could search the Internet.

    HCG is expensive and most people that are on TRT are already done having kids- so it isn't something that is likely to be thought of or used as an option. Sure, you could keep your nuts hanging low, but all it ends up being is a drain on the wallet and a vanity issue. If you still plan to have kids, I wouldn't just look to jump on TRT. Look around to some progressive doctors looking at short term Clomid supplementation or other avenues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez

    Not all Dr's offer HCG as a protocol. Being that you're on androgel I wouldn't think your Dr is one of the more progressive in the field.

    - Valdez
    I'm on androderm patch not gel. N he said it was to see how I'd respond before moving forward w more aggressive treatmeant
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj
    Doctors and endos will not prescribe HCG in almost any case. You can beg and plead and they just don't do it. About the only way to get HCG is to go to a clinic that specializes in HRT. The draw back is that you tend to spend a lot and get filled up on things you don't really need. Or you could search the Internet.

    HCG is expensive and most people that are on TRT are already done having kids- so it isn't something that is likely to be thought of or used as an option. Sure, you could keep your nuts hanging low, but all it ends up being is a drain on the wallet and a vanity issue. If you still plan to have kids, I wouldn't just look to jump on TRT. Look around to some progressive doctors looking at short term Clomid supplementation or other avenues.
    Ok. I will try to find places or talk to him n work with him to change things up. I dont care what my sack looks like, I just want to be making sperm lol.

    Do these clinics not take insurance?

    What am I facing if I come off after being on 2-3 weeks? It's Low dose patch.. Would I need something then to jump start me back im assuming.. Would OTCs be enough, wtf
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    Sorry man, I don't know how clinics work- only what I have been told by people I know that started at them and left. As far as insurance, they will squawk at anything they can. I had to provide letters from my doc and endo before insurance would cover test. HCG isn't even an option for my insurance (Cigna), so the only way is paying full price.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj
    Sorry man, I don't know how clinics work- only what I have been told by people I know that started at them and left. As far as insurance, they will squawk at anything they can. I had to provide letters from my doc and endo before insurance would cover test. HCG isn't even an option for my insurance (Cigna), so the only way is paying full price.
    Fock I have cigna too. Bastards.
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