Some questions about social anxiety
- 06-02-2010, 10:00 PM
Some questions about social anxiety
I didnt really know where to post this question so hopefully this is the right spot.
Im a 26 year old guy, and im not feeling quite right, but i dont appear to have any health issues. Im naturally lean, muscular,ect.
Im having a huge problem with social anxiety especially with females and i grew up a shy kid. I want to be able to walk up and talk to anybody, and not feel uncomfortable and have anxiety. I dont want to care what other people think. I want that " i dont give a **** attitude ". I want to be able to jump up on a stage and preform or dance and not feel nervous or have any inhibitions at all. When esculating with a female i want to feel totally relaxed and comfortable. I have nothing to be self consious about either, so i dont know what the hell is wrong with me. I dont have that alpha male manly man feeling at all most times, and i want this. I want to feel really masculine and not be phased or nervous about anything. I want to feel totally calm and cool in any social situation, and at the same time be alert and "on" mentally. I dont have that mental aggresiveness and male alpha driven mental clarity agressiveness. I feel stupid, like nothing is going on in my brain.
I just dont have that feel good "euphoric" quality of life feeling i had when i was 18. Is it a IGF-1 or Testosterone thing? Ive tried testosterone boosters and they didnt give me the euphoric, quality of life feeling. Is this a DHT thing? I want to be able to walk into a night club and feel like im a god and that i own the place, totallt alpha, cool, relaxed,ect. I want to be able to walk around in my underwear and not give a **** what people think and feel comfortable.
What can i take to get this feeling because its really effecting my life more than i noticed. Some guys feel like this naturally, i want to feel like this.
I would really appreciate some help! Thanks!
- 06-03-2010, 12:18 PM
I don't know what you can take for that. If you are thinking that Test is going to make you feel like that then you might be disappointed. On Test I felt mean sometimes and like a bitch at other times. PHs might even increase this anxiety.....so be careful with them.
I understand what you are talking about. I feel alpha male half the time but I also have felt what you are feeling. I think that what you are having an issue with could be just psychological.....only you know what your actual level of confidence is. I think that issues like this are very complicated and can be a combination of physiological and psychological issues.
Also, just because some guys walk in and LOOK like they feel this way doesnt mean they really feel this way inside. Most of the ****y guys that I have know in my life were actually big PUSSIES! All show. Just be who you are and quit analyzing it. Develop your confidence and quit worrying about how you seem to others......many times we come off a lot different than what we think we do. I honestly never ever doubt myself.....and I mean it......there is nothing that I do not believe that I could do......but do I get nervous and uncomfortable in certain situations? yes, i do and half the time it is because I am overthinking the situation and have caused anxiety that has nothing to do with my performance......and also being a perfectionist like I am.....I put way too much pressure on myself to be and seem perfect which sometimes causes me to come off as unsure or uncomfortable but at no time am I actually lacking confidence. I know this sounds crazy but think about it like this.....Tiger Woods KNOWS he is the sh*t, the best but if he puts too much pressure on himself to be perfect then he might seem like his confidence is shot.
Sorry I rambled. Hope I helped in some way.
- 06-03-2010, 12:35 PM
One more thing........
As far as females, not everyone is good at walking up and just hitting on them. I am one who is NOT good at it but if you put me in front of anybody after the ice is broken then I am great.....good conversation and lots of fun. AND chicks LOVE the cool cat who is just chillin' and not walking around like some prick Dbag.
Just be yourself.....everybody is different and quit worrying about it. Find your own style.....that's what makes you YOU! I always dated hot girls and my wife (if I may say so myself) is literally smokin' hot. If I had acted like every other guy she had met then I would be like every other guy she met.....HISTORY! LOL....you get my point.....good luck bro!
06-03-2010, 01:07 PM
AWESOME awesome advice man, i really appreciate that. I definetly hear what you are saying. Im not that "pick up artist" guy either and ive always been with smoking hot girls myself, and im a good looking guy, but something else is going on with me hormonally i beleive. I definetly hear you on the physiological part, but there is some hormone or something in my body that makes me " not give a **** " and feel totally comfortable. Ive felt this feeling before and it didnt have anything to do with physiological i think. Im also not really in a good mood ever anymore, and i have no reason not to be. Sometimes i'll be in a really good mood and making everybody laugh, and sometimes i'll feel like a lifeless zombie. I want to feel good and be able to be fun at all times and not give a ****. I want to feel comfortable walking around in my underwear. Some people just dont give a ****, and i dont think its all physiological. Everybody has flaws but i think that something in some peoples bodies just makes them not care at all. I think this goes with the manly feeling thing.
I definetly agree on the mind part, but i think in my case there is some hormone or chemical imbalance or something going on, my body just doesnt feel right. Its like my body never feels euphoric at all and thats not a mental thing.
06-03-2010, 04:17 PM
It could be hormonal or a chemical imbalance. Hormonal can be easily diagnosed.....chemical imbalances are not so easy, depending on the doctor you may get a couple of different answers and may chase your tail with medications that can cause other negative issues.
Just a thought, but have you ever had sugar level issues. I spent a lot of years feeling crappy for short periods then feeling normal and was told it was this and that and was prescribed a bunch of sh*t only to find out that it was a sugar issue. Seemed like mood swings but when I started going to an Endo and eating every few hours and never letting myself get hungry...and adjusting my diet......it made a world of difference. Like I said, just a thought.
06-03-2010, 06:11 PM
The "I don't give a f***" attitude is not a mature one and there is a fine balance between not giving a f*** and giving a f*** that you need to find and stay on. Either end of those extremes is not a good one to be on.
If you don't give a f***, you're a jackass and an indecent human being in my eyes, and if you give too much of a f*** you're nervous and anxious. Balance.
I haven't tried this stuff but many people on AM swear it removes anxiety and nervousness: Phenibut. I tried looking for it in GNC but not in stores so look online. I think it would be useful for you for when you go out. Careful with it tho it has a notorious rep for tolerance issues.
And alcohol. Makes you very social, it's why people love drinking it together. A couple drinks loosens me up always for great conversations with people I just meet. 6 drinks and I'm ready to walk up to girls lol.
But using substances to combat nervousness is winning the battle for you.. not the war....
06-03-2010, 08:41 PM
I dont really mean i want to not give a f**k about anything, be an insensative *******, and be irrisponsable,ect.
Basically all i want to be able to do is talk to anybody, and woman or groups of woman, and feel totally comfortable and relaxed. I want to feel totally comfortable and relaxed in all social situations, esculating with females,ect. This has nothing to do with my head, there is some chemical or something im lacking or making too much of thats causing this. I dont want to care at all what anybody thinks of me, and i dont want to get nervous or anxiety in public or when im with a woman. This happened to me when i was 15 years old, then from like age 17 on i wasnt scared or anything and felt totally comfortable. Now i have this anxiety again at 26 years old. Something just doesnt feel right in my body too.
Ive read about Phenibut, and ive read that guys can have massive withdrawl when stopping it, and guys wake up with a hangover feeling the next morning.
06-04-2010, 09:45 PM
06-05-2010, 01:37 PM
06-05-2010, 07:27 PM
06-05-2010, 10:01 PM
Some girls like a guy who is a little nervous, but works up the courage to talk to them. Theyve been ****ed over by enough ****y guys to admire your sensitivity. The fact theat you describe yourself as an attractive dude definately helps. Girls wanna get laid too.
On a side note, I would reccomend digestive enzymes to anyone with digestive trouble. There is no **** block bigger than when your talking to a pretty girl, and half your brain is thinking' "I have to ****."
06-07-2010, 05:50 PM
Hey guys, thanks a lot for the help i really appreciate it. The thing is, that i never used to be like this before. I never got nervous or anxiety in any situation, even in a threesome and im a lot better at pleasing a woman sexually now and learned so much more now than i used to. But before i didnt care and wasnt nervous or anxious at all.
I should mention that a few years a ago i did have adrenal fatigue confirmed by a few saliva tests done, because i used stimulants and they made me crash big time, gave me the worst anxiety and jitters ever, and was on cortef for almost 2 years, but it really was making me worse near the end i beleive so i weaned off of it. I havent touched anything stimulating since then and never will again, except for the odd peice of chocolate.
But i just dont feel comfortable and relaxed in social situations anymore, so its hard to get physical with a woman and feel relaxed. If im having a long conversation and i really have to pay attention, think, and respond, its like im getting over stimulated or like its too much stress for me to handle, and start to get some brain fog, anxiety, and just a negative vibe type of feeling. Its like my nerves or something are ****ed. For example, i just did 3 days in a row of hard physical labour working for a contracting company doing outside work, like 10-12 hours a day of really tough physical work. Today i woke up and when i started eating my hands were literally shaking, i would be holding up the spoon or fork and could see my hands trembling and shaking. What the hell is this? This isnt the first time this happened either. Maybe i need a lot more alkaline greens in my diet? Or more calcium or something? Its like my nerves or something are shot.
Maybe i need to try the Phenibut, but i see it as i need something that i have to take everday because this isnt acceptable to me at all. I need a cure to this nervous, panic, anxiety thing. Like i was saying, i need something that will make me feel totally confident and relaxed no matter what might be going on in my mind. I dont think its a mind over matter thing, i think its a chemical thing that effects how you respond to whats going on inside your head.
For example, a guy maybe totally bald, fat, or have some other thing he knows is a physical flaw of his, but he doesnt care at all and it doesnt bother him at all. Like my dad for example, he lost a lot of hair on top, but it doesnt bother him at all and he is totally comfortable in all social situations, around anybody, around totally beautiful woman, and it doesnt make him nervous, or panic, or anxiety,ect. Its like nothing phases him at all. He did have panic attacks for a breif period when he was under a lot of stress, and went on meds for it for a year maybe, but then stopped the meds and he has been totally fine since.
But i find i am inside my head all the time trying to pick out every single thing that might be wrong with me, even if its totally riduculous and im seeing things that arent even there, and because of this i get nervous and feel anxious and akward/uncomfortable out in public. Before i didnt give a ****, i wore old clothes and the same shoes for 7 years because i needed to save my money, they werent bummy looking but were old and i didnt care. I still picked up lots of girls and always got looks from cute girls when i was out.
Its like im major OCD and other things. And no matter what i try and do inside my head, it just doesnt work to make me feel comfortable and not care about what i look like or what others may think of me.
I see fat flabby guys with man boobs with their shirts off outside and it doesnt bother them at all. They dont care what people think. I need to take something so i feel this way too.
I dont know if you guys understand what im saying, its kind of hard to explain. I want to have the feeling you get when you are drunk, and you could be buck naked and approach a group of hot females and feel totally comfortable, without actually being drunk and intoxicated. I want my mind totally clear, focused, and sharp at the same time.
Maybe its a blood sugar thing, a liver thing, or a pancreas thing?
06-07-2010, 06:29 PM
You know, man. Honestly I struggled with this through my adolescence up until about a year ago. I found it more of an internal psyche thing. I mean I guess "Finding yourself" might sound too cliche? I struggles with isolation and really a loss of identity for a while. I think they kinda played a catch 22 - i felt isolated because i couldn't identify myself with any groups of interest therefore i couldn't feel a part of anything so I couldn't define myself. I always felt as soon as I walked away from people they would talk about me behind my back and worried what it was.
Before you go messin around with hormonal products that could potentially **** you up further, dabble in some hobbies (you're on an awesome website for a good one, hint). It took me 22 years to discover that I truly loved bodybuilding and training. Now I'm completely comfortable in my skin about being a black sheep and bringin tupperware to an awards banquet or eating while I'm doing a research presentation. Now, should someone talk about me I could care less because I'm kind of arrogant about it.
Forget the girls and the other guys for a hot minute. Is there something in yourself you're unhappy with? Are you worried about some weird quality you possess? If so, could you make it something fun?
Guy in my fraternity introduces me to a girl as his buddy in med school who loves bodybuilding. She wants to talk. I know in my head im socially awkward and really do have a hard time talking with girls about small talk - all i think about day in and day out is my anabolic state and recent studies in clinical pathology. Introductions are made, then an odd pause... "Oh, I'm sorry... I'm kinda socially awkward. If im not in school im training so I dont go out a whole lot anymore." Congrats! You've identified yourself and who you are along with being comfortable enough to make light of it!
If it really is biochemical - try changing your diet and physical life before anything. It really could be something simple as not enough zinc or selenium. Digestive enzymes would help out too.
By believing passionately in something that still does not exist, we create it. The nonexistent is whatever we have not sufficiently desired.
06-08-2010, 08:00 AM
06-08-2010, 08:53 AM
It could be a blood sugar issue. I do have a blood sugar issue and must eat every couple of hours. It caused me problems for years until I began seeing and Endo. She explained everything to me and it made perfect sense.
Basically when my blood sugar level drops this is what happens: I get shaky, have a very hard time concentrating and even thinking. I get very irritable and honestly cannot even think clearly at all.....I mean, I really do not even make sense when I am talking. I also get very self conscious and cannot stand for people to even look at me.....even my wife, I literally have asked her not to look at me but she totally understands and within 30 minutes after I get some sugar in me I am ok. I have been out in public when it happens and I just cannot function normally and feel like everyone is looking at me or talking about me. But, like I said this is only when my blood sugar crashes.....normally I am not like that at all........so, if this is something that comes and goes then maybe blood sugar.....but if it is something that is constant then it is probably some type of anxiety disorder......go see a doctor, and maybe you have to take medication for a while until you find the root cause of the problem.....medication is not always permanent as was the case with your father.
06-08-2010, 09:05 AM
All you need to remember is the worst thing that can happen when you walk up to a girl and hit her up is that she will say NO!!! I get shot down atleast a few times a night when I go out but at the end of the night I end up leaving with a girl. For example I got shot down twice last Saturday at a club and yeah it sucked but I never gave up and as I was leaving the club at 2am I pulled two girls one for me and one for my buddy and I'll do it again this weekend. All it is, is a numbers game the more you put yourself out there the better the odds will have.
06-08-2010, 01:16 PM
I think maybe my Testosterone is low or something because i get random depression to the point of crying for no reason some days. Just now for example i was eating lunch thinking about some past **** that happened and started crying for god sakes. My face is also kind of puffy and soft and it should be lean like a models face for the body i have. My face has always been lean my whole life and i have even more of a 6 pack now than i ever did. I dont feel like a man at all, i dont feel comfortable at all especially with woman, for no reason at all i just dont "feel" like a man. It doesnt make sense though because im naturally muscular and lean and when i do hard physical work i get and look jacked. I dont feel like socializing at all and nothing in life motivates me anymore, i dont feel anything and lost all my passionate feelings for life. I have absolutely no feeling of well being at all.
Im going to try some proviron because i dont want to have to mess with TRT and im definetly not messing with injections.
06-09-2010, 11:41 AM
06-09-2010, 01:46 PM
Hey bro, thx for the advice i really appreciate that. The only reason why i think its a hormonal or chemical reason is this. The depression comes and goes for no appearant reason. For example, today i woke up at 6am with monring wood as usual lol, i felt good, not sad, down, or depressed at all. I tried thinking about the things that i think about when im depressed that make me even cry sometimes which is riduculous but i cant help it, and they never bothered me one bit. I tried to get sad, upset, and depressed and it didnt work no matter what i thought about. So i rubbed one out lol and went back to sleep. Then i woke back up at 10am depressed, sad, upset, down, thinking about the same things that didnt bother me when i first woke up at 6am and almost cried again. This is what i dont get. I get random attacks of depression out of nowhere. The weird thing is that a lot of the times my depression happends when i wake up, or when im eating. It usually always happends if i wake up early morning, go back to sleep for a few hours, and wake up again. This is why im thinking something hormonal is going on, and this same thing is causing my anxiety in public. I also have bad brain fog a lot of the time too, and think its all related. I personally think its my androgens/estrogen ratio's that are off balance, and i have some liquid proviron on the way so will report back if that works or helps or not. My depression also seems to go away when im really aroused and turned on, weird.
I could be wrong though but guys with high androgens and lower estrogens wouldnt feel shy, and nervous in public and around people i dont think. I think they would feel like they ruled the world, even if they were not physically big or built. Im very built and get comments on it but feel very timid in public.
Who knows, maybe i do have to see a shrink i dont know.
06-09-2010, 02:20 PM
06-09-2010, 02:28 PM
I agree 100%. You are probably adding to your anxiety by analysing all this stuff and trying to get an answer right now. I am just going to tell you right now that even with professional help there is no easy answer many times. I am speaking from experience. Let it go for a bit in your head and go talk to your doctor. I understand how you feel completely and that is why I am telling you to go talk to your doctor about it....there is no use beating your head against the wall trying to figure out and treat something that could be a lot of different things and a combination of many issues. Good Luck.
06-09-2010, 03:19 PM
Thanks guys i will, problem is my family doctor sucks big time, i mean REAL quack, and this guy i saw for adrenal fatigue who is both an MD and a Naturalpath, also sucks, and he is listed as one of the best on the net. Its like he is guessing at how to fix the problem or something. Its like impossible to find somebody who can help me, no doctor i have seen has been able to help me in the past. The endo i saw a few years ago for adrenals was a total quack too. I live in ontario, canada. I dont have money to be flying around the country to see people who are supposed to be good. So what the f**k can i do? Im on my own here. I wasted 8 months seeing doctors when i blew out my adrenals and was feeling horrible. I didnt know at the time i had low Cortisol levels and i wasted 8 months seeing people and doing blood work. It wasnt untill i discovered on my own the ZRT cortisol saliva test that i ordered on my own, and found out i had low cortisol and my cortisol rhythms were way out of whack. I came to this doctor with the knowledge requesting i go on Cortef as i tried Isocort and it didnt help. He just went along and made me waste over $1200 on bull**** supplements that didnt help. So what do i do? Waste another year and money and time i dont have with these idiots? I wish i could find an amazing doc in Toronto.
06-09-2010, 03:21 PM
But whatever the cause is, in the meantime, i need something that is over the counter, and safe, that i can take to kill this anxiety because im not going to take prescription drugs.
Any idea's for the meantime? Phenibut? I dont even feel comfortable talking to my own mom for f**k sakes, i need something asap.
06-09-2010, 04:52 PM
I've got social anxiety pretty bad myself. Figured it was something I would grow out of but it's gotten worse over the years. The main side effects for me are extremely uncomfortable cramps and bloating, like starting first thing in the morning until I get home from work at night. But a prescription doesn't seem like a long term answer for me either.
06-09-2010, 05:29 PM
You know, i never get answers or solution anywhere, not by any doctor, not by any forums either. its not in my head and im not going to see a shrink. Thats riduculous. I have no reasons to be depressed or anxious for god sakes. And i have massive brain fog too, its like i cant eat anything except raw foods or i get brain fog. I feel very timid and inferior most of the time for no reason, i dont feel comfortable at all even in my own house by myself. Its not in my "head". I shouldnt feel this way at my age, this is ridiculous. I feel in a major fog and dont feel powerful at all, this is hormonal not mental. This really sucks too i cant stand it anymore, my life is being ruined by this. How is it mental when im way too nervous to have sex? This is insane!!!!!!! I should feel relaxed and good having sex. I know more than 95% of guys when it comes to sex too!!!!! Im to nervous and feel to timid to preform. My energy or mental drive is gone for no reason. I shouldnt be depressed over a girl i never even went out with, this is ridiculous! Ive heard of this **** happening to people on Clomid, and post cycle when their Testosterone levels are low and estrogen is high. If your seratonin levels are good then it should be impossible to get depressed or depression. Maybe my seratonin/dopmaine is messed up. There is no way to test this.
There was a point when i was a teenager that i was nervous infront of girls, then it completely went away for a few years, now it came back. There was no mental reason either. I wore the same clothes for years because i didnt want to waste money, and i used to grow a scrubby beard and go out in public lol, and i didnt care at all. I had really hot girls sit next to me on the bus when the seats were kind of full and even though i was dressed like a scrub to go to my physical job, i wasnt one bit nervous or anxious or anything. I could have made out with her right there and been totally comfortable.
Now i shave everyday, dress very good, look good, and i feel very anxious and nervous. If i see a girl i find really attractive just the thought of talking to her i get very anxious and nervous. Its like i cant handle any kind of stress at all, i get way too exited.
This isnt mental, something is up. I guess im the only one as usual that is going to have to help myself out because i need something non prescription to knock out this anxiety and i need some hormones or something to feel like i have some damn life in me. Google it is, its a shame i can NEVER get an ANSWER ANYWHERE it SUCKS!
I also NEVER wake up feeling good and refreshed and i can sleep for 12 hours. I dont wake up with that fell good feeling i used to at ALL. And i dont get that very relaxed tired feeling at night either at all, you know that good feeling of being very relaxed and tired and ready to a nice sleep? My body doesnt feel good.
This is lack of hormones of some sort im sure of it. I never feel euphoric and good at all. I never feel RELAXED! Im way to jumpy and if something exites me my heart will start pounding.
I need something that will make me feel really relaxed, yet energized and mentally ALERT and clear at the same time.
06-09-2010, 05:44 PM
06-09-2010, 05:47 PM
06-09-2010, 06:16 PM
Thanks, yes i have major anxiety, just sitting here alone. And i get very depressed at certain times of the day for no appearant reason. I tried propecia in the past for hairloss and it made my anxiety 1000000000 times worse for some reason, my hands were shaking in public, which makes me think it has something to do with androgens and estrogens as propecia lowers DHT and causes an increase in estrogen.
How can it be something in my head if im sitting here alone and still have anxiety? Thats what i dont understand. I dont want to take anti-anxiety pills because im not deficient in anti-anxiety pills, im deficient in something my body needs like a vitamin, mineral, hormone, or something like that. Also those anti-anxiety pills i heard make you worse and lower Testosterone, they could mess up your metabolism, could make you limp ****, not able to ejaculate, make it very hard to come off,ect.
My body should be able to handle stressfull situations without getting anxiety and shaking hands. Ive been through some very stressfull times when i was around 17-19 years old and i never once got anxiety. I was a bit worried but it never caused me to have anxiety. So this doesnt make any sense to me. I dont get why nobody is understanding what i am saying.
And what blood work is going to tell me what is causing my anxiety anyways? The only things i can think of hormonally to cause anxiety is high E2 or estrogen, low testosterone, low dhea low or high Cortisol, or hypo or hyperthyroid. Thats it. Can anybody else think of something? Jesus my body is trembling just writing this message, my nerves are ****ing shot. I hate this. If my hormones were optimal i can gaurantee i wouldnt feel this way.
Ive read that high adrenaline causes anxiety and that when cortisol is low the body runs off of adrenaline.
Oh, yes i was taking stimulants a few years back and they gave me the worst anxiety possible and thats what started this all. I did the ZRT test for saliva cortisol and was low on DHEA-S, morning cortisol, high on afternoon, and low at midnight. My face has also been puffy and kind of bloated looking since the whole thing when before it was lean and chisled. Sucks.
06-09-2010, 06:27 PM
As I mentioned earlier, its probably high e2 or cortisol, or both. Get tested and move on. Do not trust your doctor unless he uses natural cures.
06-09-2010, 08:02 PM
I just checked my blood pressure, the top systolic number was 102, very low, then i stood up to see if it would rise as it should when your adrenals are good, and it dropped to 101. To me this looks like low Cortisol, i dont know.
06-09-2010, 08:06 PM
Just get the blood test done. Reply back in here with the results and we'll all know once and for all what is causing your symptoms instead of playing this guessing game. Less talk more action! Get the test done!
06-09-2010, 08:11 PM
Easier said than done, i have to order the saliva test from ZRT and its like $200 which i dont have right now.
06-09-2010, 08:25 PM
Maybe this whole depression anxiety is caused by this girl, because whenever im depressed all i think about is her. Like without her i dont even care to live or be with anybody else. This is insane coming from my mouth becausae ive never felt like this in my life. Sometimes during the day i feel totally fine and im not bothered by it, but half the time i am, and i always think about this girl. Maybe she is the cause but this isnt normal. This is such a painful feeling. Ive never cried so much before. Something must be wrong here i cant be like this over a girl.
06-09-2010, 08:29 PM
Ohhhh it all makes sense now man. You don't have a hormone imbalance.. you're suffering from a broken heart brother.
06-09-2010, 09:03 PM
06-09-2010, 09:06 PM
06-09-2010, 09:20 PM
06-09-2010, 10:19 PM
Thx man, i guess i have to get the tests done, i just dont know what to test for besides the hormones i mentioned, adrenal, thyroid, estrogen, testosterone.
I never got this way about a girl before, ever. I never actually really liked or cared about a girl before, what a horrible feeling. Its just weird because sometimes im not bothered at all, for days even, and sometimes im so damn upset, this just doesnt seem normal to me.
Thx for the help guys i really appreciate it.
06-10-2010, 12:17 AM
06-20-2010, 05:15 PM
I feel for you bro. I have had chronic social anxiety since high school. Clonazapam at 1-3 mg per day annhilates it completely for me. I feel like I should be anxious but Im not so I quickly get over that feeling and then begin having fun with people!
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