- 09-17-2009, 03:46 PM
Have been on Test Cyp and HCG for 7 months now, Estrogen is off the scale so Dr. added Arimidex.
I've been taking it for a week and am experiencing more depressed moods than usual.
I have had the "blues" most of my life, which i simply work through but since starting the new medication, I've entered another down slope.
Could it be related to the med, the drop in estrogen which i am adjusting to, or simply a coincidence?
- 09-17-2009, 05:57 PM
How much AI are you taking? Low E2 can have the same effects. Libito? Joint discomfort? Itchy nipples? All signs of low E2.
- 09-18-2009, 09:35 AM
1/2 Mg, EOD.
I cant imagine the E could drop that much with say......5, 1/2 Mg doses over 10 days but thats why I'm asking for opinions.
09-19-2009, 02:56 PM
09-19-2009, 09:23 PM
I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
09-21-2009, 12:45 PM
09-21-2009, 01:47 PM
Most men on TRT and HCG with high levels of Estradiol E2 will have some bad ED problems sore and hard nipples feel anxiety even Panic Attacks in the middle of the night well they are not Panic Attacks but feel like them. Going on the dose you did is used when men are above 50 pg/ml they take .5mgs every other day. But you need to watch for your night time and morning wood to start back up and it will be so strong it will wake you up. This means your at your best levels so I tell men to keep taking this until there wood stops. It takes about 5 weeks for Arimidex to stabilize in your body. So if your wood stops just stop the Arimidex until your wood comes back then that day go back on the Arimidex but do less of it say .25mgs every 2 or 3 days gage not going down to low by your wood.
Now if you were as high as I was I needed to do .5 mgs everyday to get my levels to go down. I started out with levels over 90 or >90 the lab test could not go higher. I did .5mgs every other day for 6 weeks did labs and nothing moved down. So I did .5 mgs everyday and in 2 weeks I got some dam strong morning wood so strong I could hang a coat on it. I have not had morning wood in over 30 yrs I was 58 at the time.
I posted about this and one of the guys at the forum I was at told me to gage my level by my wood for going down to low. So I have been using this advice for yrs. between my wood and labs I keep my Estradiol in the best range at about 20 pg/ml.
I keep a log on what I am taking and how I am feeling some times I go back up to high and labs show this. But now after keeping a log I can tell when I am going up to high wood gets weak and my nipples get sore and hard I feel a lot of brain fog even feel depressed or a feeling of being low. Same thing happens going down to low just don't get sore and hard nipples but it will kill your wood so bad taking a pill will not get it up.
Getting your estradiol levels down your SHBG will come down and free up Testosterone my Free T levels went up to the top of the range.
One of the hardest things to control in hormones is Estradiol it never stays at the same levels from month to month I have to keep playing with my dose of Arimidex some day I take .25mgs everyday other times I do .25mgs every 3 days. So keep a log on how you feel how your wood is and what your dose of Arimidex is at that time.
Some good links about this.
In the above link some men have high levels of estradiol and low Testosterone with low LH and FSH Dr.'s would think this is a Pituitary problem but it's not it's the high Estradiol in men Estradiol is made from testosterone and when estradiol is to high it things it's high levels of Testosterone and slows down sending the LH and FSH to the testis and they stop making Testosterone. The men that find this out before going on TRT find just getting there Estradiol levels down there Testosterone can go up some 200 to 300 points and they don't need TRT.
11-26-2013, 02:41 PM
Arimidex lowers estrogen. Estrogen has a positive correlation with both serotonin and cortisol. ALL of these act as stress hormones and have neurotransmitter capacity. You may find that a sudden drop in all three depresses mood while the body readjusts levels to sustain mood. I have had the same problem. My estrogen wasn't crazy high but I am using Adex to raise T and increse the T/E ratio. In men, E is not wiped out by Adex, the way it is in women. A feeback via GNRH apparently puts an E floor in of low normal. This is demonstrated in a clinical trial in older men with low T and normal E.
Everyone is different. Regardless of actual E levels, some guys metabolise faster and need a higher or more frequent dose. Others get.by on a quarter pill e every 3 days. I think there is also a point where E drops before T rises and that is probably the lowest mood point. The T, in my experience, rises just like it would with a steroid jab - it's only really noticeable after a a week or two.
11-26-2013, 04:09 PM
I have symptoms of high SHBG, lower free T, etc, can someone please advise if i might benefit from arimidex? My E2 actually doesn't seem too bad though (Age 27):
Testosterone, Serum 620 348-1197 ng/dL CB
Luteinizing Hormone(LH), S
LH 3.6 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL CB
FSH 1.2 LOW 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL CB
Estradiol 26.9 7.6-42.6 pg/mL CB
Roche ECLIA methodology
1 of 2
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 43.4 16.5-55.9 nmol/L CB
Please and thanks for any info!
11-27-2013, 04:49 AM
Read this study in detail and see how T and E adapt under the influence of Adex. Yes, there could be mood issues, which are manageable by dose. I think the body adapts in these circumstances and resets levels of endo hormones like cortisol. A comedown from high cortisol (typically high in low T situations) might not be pleasant as C supports an excitable mood state - it is the main driver in the sensation of falling in love. It takes time for levels of these chemicals to 'reset' to a new and favourable homeostasis. I am personally using Adex now to raise T and it was prescribed. My doc is letting me work out my dose. I KNOW it is working because my boys have doubled in size, I have mood adjustment and I am putting on muscular weight. Only tests will tell if it can shunt me into normal range. Estrogens in the food chain can be devastating - increasing E effects and receptor numbers - pulling the balance of power away from T in men of all ages. Soy is a prime candidate, as are poly oils which act as it's host in inflammation. It can take up to four years to turn their influence around completely but I have had great results on diet change alone after 6 months. This is only my opinion - always consult with a doc before taking any prescribed meds.
Study: Effects of Aromatase Inhibition in Elderly Men with Low or Borderline-Low Serum Testosterone Levels
11-27-2013, 08:34 AM
11-27-2013, 10:24 AM
Here is a copy of a file I made about using E2 meds and not going to low on them.
============================== ============================== ==========
How To Take Arimdex or Aromasin and not go down on your Estradiol to Low.
What I found is if you go to low taking arimidex, it's the length of time your to low, if your too low say for 8 weeks it can take your body a longer time to make more Estradiol. Bottom line is to know how not to go to low. Keep a log on your dose and how you feel men going to low can't get it up taking Viagra. I went to low when I first tried Arimidex and did not know about going to low or how one feels to low, so I was low a good 8 weeks. I did not know I was low until my next labs.
The best gage I have found to control your Estradiol levels is to gage your night time and morning wood. At good levels or what I call the sweet spot you get your night time and morning wood back so strong it will wake you up and you can hang a coat on it.
Most men do good taking .25 mgs or 1/4 of a 1mg. pill, I use a pill cutter to cut the small pill in half then I stand it on the cut end and use a single edge razor to cut this in half. A good way to take arimidex is by how high your levels are. I tested over 90 pg/ml so we tried doing .5 mgs every other day after 8 weeks my next set of labs showed it did not move below 90, test said >90. So we did .5 mgs. every day in about 2 weeks I got some strong night time and morning wood back after not having them for many yrs.
I kept doing this dose and in 8 weeks my next set of labs said <20 back in the day labs were like this they did not have to good labs we have today they could not read lower the 20. My Dr. told me this looks to low to stop taking the Arimidex. The one thing I noticed was my wood stopped and stopping the Arimidex my wood came back in about 7 weeks my next test at 8 weeks was 24 pg/ml. So we went back on the Arimidex but the Dr. told me to take .5 mgs every 3 days I was on this dose not a week and lost wood. This is when I figured out going to low you lose wood. And the longer your too low the longer it takes to get levels back up.
I stopped the arimidex right away and got my wood back in 4 days. I then after playing with the dose for a time found the best dose is .25mgs every 2 to 3 days.
So lets say your labs are less the 50 pg/ml if your take .5 mgs you can go down so dam fast your miss the sweet spot of your wood and go to low. It's best with lower levels 50 and under to do less Arimidex .25mgs every 2 days if later your lose wood when it comes back go to every 3 days.
I have found estradiol is the hardest hormone to control, it goes up or down from month to month some times I need .25mgs every 2 days other times I need .25mgs everyday most of the time I do well on every 3 days.
So between wood and labs I do great and so do most of the men I have told this to. I keep a log on how much I am taking and how I feel. Doing this and reading back in my log I was able to tell when I was going to high or to low my Dr. lets me dose my arimidex by how I feel.
Over the yrs. I have posted this story until I am blue in the face.
11-27-2013, 10:56 AM
As T falls the mood must be sustained. This means that whatever replaces it, has neurotransmitter capacity. It is an adaptive function. What do 99 out of 100 docs offer an andropause patient before diagnosis - antidepressants for nervous depression. Cortisol is rising, as a primarily stress hormone it can only really offer an excitable mind stimulation as opposed to T's relaxed assertive state. However E also rises, leading to emotional issues and increased sensitivity. As E rises it brings serotonin with it. This is NOT the cliched happy chemical, it is actually an amplifier of neurotransmitters. Proof? Ssri's raise serotonin levels. Yet the drug Stablon does the opposite and is actually better at curing depression. Prozac has 30,000 suicides to it's credit. Stablon has none and it's users get to keep their sex life and personality.
What I am saying is that there will be an adaptive phase in mood as the ratio of E to T is lowered and the stress state removed. E will come down before T rises. Some guys actually use Stablon to ride this out. It takes years to go andropause, jolting it in reverse with arimidex may not be a smooth experience. However, perhaps if dose is allowed to build slowly in a patient candidate, things might no be so rough. E is a nasty hormone, suited only to an 'as and when' role - even in women. Progesterone is much more productive and effective but less understood. This is probably why pregnenolone will recover mood much faster than DHEA...
11-27-2013, 12:23 PM
Great thread here and I have learned alot, BUT on the symptoms of High or Low E2 and how they can mirror one another and which way to go with treatment?I do have my last lab value being at 28 This was at Quest and the range is < OR 39 pg/ml. I have heard of all the diff lab tests for E2 and they arent reliable, but symptom wise I have LOW libido, NO rem morning wood, Clicking joints, erect nipples on occasion and also a Scent that resembles a woman! This has got to be high E2 doesnt it? BTW my TT is 812, and Free T and Bio were in the normal range , but I want them higher. Also SHBG is high at 64. I do have a script for Arimdiex 1 mg , but I dont wanna drive it too low. Please advise? Thanks Everyone.
11-27-2013, 02:10 PM
I feel one needs to go on Arimidex .25 mgs or 1/4 of the pill EOD if labs are over 30 but under 50 pg/ml do this until you get your Rem Sleep Wood back then keep taking this it might be the right amount you need. If not you will lose your RSW because you went to low this is not a problem as long as your looking for this to happen. When you lose your RSW just stop the Arimidex until your RSW comes back that day don't wait go back on your Arimidex but take less like E3D. The only way your going to find the right dose is going to low. Keep a log on how much your taking and how you felt when you went to low. This way you can get dam good at dosing your E2 meds. Some weeks I will change the dose by the day here is a cut and paste for a co mod. at yahoo's forum on going to high and what it feels like.
Nov 1, 2011
I just wanted to add that your swollen ankles can be caused by high
Estradiol (E2) levels.
When my E2 was very high, my legs and feet were swollen so much that I
couldn't even wear shoes. Once I got my E2 down to normal levels, all
of the swelling went away completely and has not returned.
When you add testosterone to your body, it can convert into estrogen via
a chemical called "aromatase". Your liver produces aromatase, your fat
cells contain aromatase, etc. There are different parts of estrogen,
but the only part that men really care about is "estradiol" (E2).
Like Phil said, when E2 goes up, it "makes you feel like crap and kills
your sex life". As E2 levels go up, SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin)
levels tend to go up, too. SHBG attaches itself to testosterone and
basically makes the testosterone useless. In other words, you can have
"good" levels of testosterone, but if your SHBG is too high, you still
feel like you have low testosterone.
Here is a list of some of the symptoms of high E2 (you don't have to
experience all of the symptoms to know that you have high E2):
* Trouble reaching an orgasm
* No erections while sleeping (i.e. "night wood" or "morning wood")
* Panic Attacks
* Prostate problems
* Water Retention
* Increased Blood Pressure
* Decreased Libido
* When penis is limp, it doesn't hang low (it seems to try to crawl back up)
* Asthma like issues (due to increased water retention around the lungs)
* Trouble sleeping at night - waking up multiple times per night
* Lack of Libido
* Crying while watching TV shows/movies
* Easier to get angry (think PMS)
* Insulin Resistance (getting tired after eating a meal - if left
untreated, it can lead to Type II Diabetes)
* Larger stomach
* Redness on the face and/or chest
* Feeling hotter than everybody else
* Thinner skin/bleeding easier
Hypogonadism2 Co-Moderator - not a medical professional.
11-27-2013, 02:40 PM
Progesterone comes to mind as a complicating factor. A powerful hormone used both as a libido booster and E limiter in men and women. I have read anecdotal reports it may cause male breast tissue issues at higher levels but as a sex hormone it appears to be neutral and any sexual effects are subject to its relationship with T or E. There are US endo's using it for males with anti ageing and trt issues. I had a blood level of P at twice the upper range. Then I noted, under stress, my cortisol was over 50% above the upper range. It occurred to me the P was simply a snapshot of my stress ie Pregnenolone was converting to Progesterone which was then converting to C. Cortisol doesn't just magically appear - it must have a hormonal precursor. This is what worries me about serum blood tests, and the ability of a physician to interpret them. My own (former) doc didn't even spot the elevated P!
i have read many anecdotal reports of low E, however I can only really report my own experience, starting at a perfect level (according to LEF) of 25 and pressing it down with Adex. Bizarrely, less back pain and stiffness! No achy joints. Mild depression. Now, E's intimate relationship with cortisol might be a plausible explanation. Injections of E have been demonstrated to raise serum cortisol within hours. Are we also suppressing cortisol with Adex? I think it's possible. With C also being a mood hormone, I think the Adex induced drop from a consistently elevated level would be very noticeable as C would be dominating the maintenance of mood.
This TRT business is a detective story. You can only hope for a Serpico in this matter! Find the instigating culprit and the rest falls into place, especially in younger males. For example, I read a brilliant report from a US pharmacological conference where one practising pharmacist said he was alarmed at the willingness of docs to go straight to TRT without some further enquiries and bloods. He had found a number of cases where only dhea was needed to restore T production to normal range. So, the source material was lacking, not the testes ability to make T. Iodine, a seemingly dangerous yet crucially important mineral has been successfully used by savvy physicians to repair hormone receptors - including curing type 1 diabetes in a woman with 50mg a day for 2 weeks. I have used iodine successfully to refresh and clean up my androgen receptors, and probably sharpen my thyroid performance. I have gone up to 200mg a day of lugols - I did not go hyper. Iodine is also an estrogen antagonist. Magnesium, a huge deficiency culprit across the west, has enormous implications for hormone production and takes time and high doses to replete. Then you have the toxic foods like soy, polyunsaturated fats and certain grains. This is not pseudo science. Every plant protects itself. It does that by poisoning those who eat it, in whatever way it can. It's why cows on poly oil diets die younger and have demolished thyroids. Fruit and quite a few veg, in contrast, are MEANT to be eaten.
i would suggest anyone trying to ramp their T back up think about diet, mineral supps and motherload hormones before TRT. I am currently on a pregnenolone regime, not DHEA, although I have used both. I want to see what happens when I give my body the source of ALL it's endo needs. There will be ups and downs - I know this. I have to think long term and expect the struggle of one hormone vs another to take place before they settle down and, if necessary, lower dose according to my 'feel' of the situation. Who really does have a 'perfect' hormone profile????? We never see those printouts of guys with no problems do we? Just the hormonal casualties - like me lol. Perhaps, some have a little more E and do fine while others seem to do great with the smallest amount of T? E dominance and dysfunction are proven to run in families. Yet in the same, adaptive mechanisms have prevailed over these setbacks. Our WORST enemy is the sh@t we were told was good for us and munched it down like cattle!
11-27-2013, 02:50 PM
Of note, my last Adex dose was .5 yesterday morning. I skipped this morning. The chest anxiety sensation just kicked in at 7pm. This tells me I am metabolising my Adex at a rate of about 30 hours, not three days. I know I am making more T thanks to Adex, but that means that any backlash of aromatisation will be more noticeable. It also makes me question, does this drug really ever reach long term stable blood levels? Or is really down to the last dose?
11-28-2013, 10:10 AM
Wow lots of great info there Andalucia! Thanks!
I personally hate Adex, it literally makes me sick. Not only do I get a ****ty headache, but it causes a weird depression in me that's so severe it makes my eyes hurt. Also gives me a high temperature (99-102F), and upper respiratory flu-like symptoms EVERY time I take it. I thought it was just by chance before, but it's not. Too bad DHT cream or injections aren't as readily available for e2 control.
11-28-2013, 10:38 AM
Then try the generic to Aromasin I use this now and find it works better. After you take it it lower E2 in a very shot time just a few hrs. If this still makes you feel sick try Indolplex/DIM but get it from this link I know this is not jumk and works it's a supplement.
Here is some info I put together with the help of Matrix .
ALL ABOUT DIM.
Sure here is a few links that are all about it. But there are a lot of Co.'s out there selling DIM that don't work well. Indolplex/DIM is the best it dose not get killed in your stomach when you take it.
Diindolylmethane (DIM) is a stable indole found in cruciferous vegetables which promotes a beneficial estrogen metabolism in both women and men.
in this link it's full of links about it.
If you have DIM in caps it's not Indolplex so to take this and to get it to work open the cap pore the DIM into a spoon add some Olive oil and take it this helps to keep it from getting killed in your stomach.
The following is some links to where you can buy Indolplex/DIM.
How to take Indolplex/DIM take one tablet 120 mgs at dinner time it can take 2 weeks to 2 months to get your Estradiol levels down it’s all about how high you are in your levels. What you need to do is get
this down to about 20 pg/ml. When you get this low your night time and morning wood will come back so strong it will wake you up this means most of the time your at your best levels or what I call the sweet spot. Keep taking the DIM but if your wood stops your going down to low so just stop taking it. The day your wood comes back go back on the DIM but cut the tablet in half. If your Testosterone was tested and low but your not on TRT get it tested again you might find your levels came up some 200 to 300 points.
Here is a cut and paste why Dr. John feels we need to take TMG with DIM.
I have seen several studies which showed that while DIM improves the 2-OHE/16-a-OHE ratio, it also increases the bad 4-OHE. TMG, or its child DMG (although TMG is much better because it has already donated a valuable methyl group by the time it becomes DMG) will help flush the 4-OHE downstream.
Taking TMG/DMG is important on its own, even in absence of DIM supplementation. But I would not take DIM without it.
And here is a link to a thread on a new supplement called Estrogen Detox at Dr. John’s forum.
The following is what Dr. Marianco says about lowing E2 with DIM and other things.
My interpretation of the above articles is that:
1. DIM blocks DHT from binding to androgen-receptors in the Prostate. This is a good thing - it reduces the risk of prostate cancer from testosterone replacement therapy.
2. DIM does not stop the production of DHT. For DIM to do so, it has to inhibit the reductase enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT. The articles do not indicate that this is occurring.
In regard to how DIM works, it blocks certain Cytochrome P450 enzymes in the liver which convert Estrogens to more proliferative, cancerous types of estrogens. This forces the liver to use other pathways, which convert estrogens to non-proliferative, safer, and less potent estrogens. Thus, overall estrogen activity is reduced by DIM.
Arimidex blocks the aromatase enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogens, thus lowering the production of estrogens and thus lowering estrogen activity. There are other substances which also block the aromatase enzyme - including 6-OXO (an over-the-counter supplement), Aromasin, etc..
Which do you want to use? Either choice is valid. It will depend on the individual's response, how easy it is to control estrogen activity, cost, etc.
1. Arimidex is by prescription and is very expensive.
2. 6-OXO is over-the-counter, but dosing guidelines are not clear.
3. DIM is over-the-counter, is relatively expensive for what you get. There are pitfalls - such as "DIM-complex" - which water down the DIM concentration by adding additives.
4. Broccoli and I3C - both precursors to DIM can be used. But they require you to avoid antacids, needing acidity in the stomach to break them down and create DIM.
In any case, you will have to monitor your estrogen levels via blood testing to determine how much of each you want to use.
Any statement I make on this site is for educational purposes only and will change as medical knowledge progresses. It does not constitute medical advice, does not substitute for proper medical evaluation from physician, does not create a doctor/patient relationship or liability. If you would like medical advice, please ask your doctor. Thank you.
11-28-2013, 01:32 PM
if it is of interest....
After last night's anxiety sensation in my chest, I took half an Adex. Within 1 hour the anxiety sensation was completely gone. Yesterday I took 200mg of pregnenolone in a split dose. Normally I do 50mg am. The increased preg obviously had provided additional raw material for my boys to produce more testosterone and this was leading to more aromatisation. What interested me the most is that I was completely able to eliminate the depressive feelings associated with a higher dose regimen of Adex - using preg. Also, my perception of my environment increased substantially - colours, sounds and especially smells. Celeb doc Ray Sahellian has also noted this in a book he wrote on preg. I felt quite euphoric on several occasions last night and early am. Today I have done a single 200mg am preg dose and will report back. It begs the question - are the testes of trt candidates starved of a vital fuel (preg) through years of persistent environmental stress, to the point that diet will not suffice for the purposes of total repletion to optimum levels? Research has consistently demonstrated that if individuals are replete, they can take grams of preg with no effect whatsoever. However, those deficient (like myself) will note profound effects with small doses. Imagine being starved of any nutrient for long enough - even a small dose introduced to this state could potentially create an adverse reaction as receptor numbers have reduced and they are much more sensitised to the substance. I am satisfied after reading Dr Ray Peat's research that preg poses me no long term problems, other than an adjustment phase at the beginning. It is raw endocrine material with multiple positive effects. Trt candidates are plagued by an inability to deal with stress - preg reduces stress and stress hormones like cortisol.
. I was surprised at the level of Adex I needed with a normal E blood reading. I can only assume that my E receptor numbers and efficiency were increased by the constant consumption of plant estrogen's like soy, flax and grains - the same that are recommended to menopausal women. There is no such thing as a 'weak' plant estrogen in my book. It either acts like one, or it doesn't!
Anyway, consider the actions of pregnenolone. I also note it has substantial anti depressant properties. By using Adex simultaneously perhaps they work in synergy to break the old T/E threshold of andropause and establish youthful levels...
i want to try the Indolplex that pmgamer has suggested - I would hope it is just as efficient as the Adex without any chemical sides. I'm also really interested in his comments on TMG and estrogen - I took TMG for about a week and it really depressed me - so much that I had to quit it. It looks like this was the suppression of estrogen levels with their corresponding effects on my serotonin and cortisol. My levels might be normal range, but E is definitely in control in my book. It seems the route to success might mean having to persist through a few weeks of hell until things readjust?! With Adex, you can sink E in an hour, but T takes a few weeks to get it's act together. The ' black hole' in between is the killer for me!
11-29-2013, 10:33 AM
Good post one thing men need to know about Arimidex it takes about 3 to 5 weeks to become stabilized in the body. For some men it's sooner but after this time one feeling anxiety or panic feels. Taking Arimidex after it is stabilized in ones body will work stopping Anxiety and panic in about an hour.
I would take my normal dose when I was on it .25 mgs E3D and when I felt Anxiety or Panic I would take an extra .25 mgs and feel better in about an hour.
Now on the generic to Aromasin it works very fast the first time men use it you don't need to wait 3 to 5 weeks for it to build up in your body and become stabilized. It works fast on day one but I only recommend men use this if they have a huge problem with E2 levels.
There are a lot of men like me that take there E2 med. in the morning and feel E2 going up 4 to 6 hrs. later that day. I take a half a pill of Exemestane about every 4 hrs needing 1 to 3 pills / day.
This happened to me from being on pain meds here are some copy's of posts Matrix sent me about this.
Same pathway cyp3a
CYP3A4 again !!!
And this was from one of the co mods at Yahoo forum Ryan he also needs a lot of Arimidex like 3 to 5 pills / day and his Dr. also needs this much here is a copy of a post to me.
Fifth, are you taking any medications that “induce CYP 3A4”?If so, you
may need to increase your dosage of Aromasin.
“Co-medications that induce CYP 3A4 (e.g., rifampicin, phenytoin,
carbamazepine, phenobarbital, or St. John’s wort) may significantly
decrease exposure to exemestane. Dose modification is recommended for
patients who are also receiving a potent CYP 3A4 inducer [see Dosage and
Now for the tough question – what to do to fix the situation?
Maybe you could talk to your doctor and see if you can try a different
pain med.Some pain meds act differently than others and the wiki page I
referenced above does recommend rotating pain meds…
Maybe you could try going back to using Arimidex.
Maybe you could try increasing your progesterone.My hormone doctor likes
to see values above the "normal" reference range – he likes to see
values between 4 and 8 (even in men).
Maybe go to http://www.drugs.com and click on the link for “Interactions
Checker”.Enter all of your meds and see if any interactions come up.
Now for a word about taking Indolplex/DIM with Arimidex for men it caused me to break out in a rash on spots of my body under my arms on the side of my ribs and on the back of my lower legs. If you try this and find this happens stop the DIM. As for TMG I take 750 mgs at noon with a meal and at bedtime with some ZMA, L-Arginine & L-Ornithine, Iodoral Iodine, Melatonin, 3 mg and Selenium.
Taking TMG helps your liver work better.
Most of the supplements are for my Thyroid but I sleep like a baby.
11-29-2013, 11:02 AM
I have some T3 here, and looking at the myriad of downstream endo disasters from the thyroid, it seems the only way to get back on top of it is to run with T3 for a few weeks and attempt to reboot the thyroid. I drank a litre of soy milk a day for ten years - bye bye optimum thyroid! Iodine gave me a serious boost around the 200mg mark but it did not last, although I should have pressed on with the therapy. I already take selenium and magnesium.
I would suggest the more pronounced the depression from Adex, the more likely the thyroid functioning poorly. That said, it's a catch 22 - endogenous testosterone production has it's own thyroid hormone - TRH. The more you boost your own T, the more likely it is for thyroid to improve. Exogenous T actually lowers thyroid function. In a young male, it's not such a big issue, such is their high level of thyroid function in the first place, but for us older guys it's not so simple. I've been checking my temps recently - the OPTIMAL measure of thyroid function (how many hypos are out there medicating with 'normal' bloods?). About a month ago I could not get out of the 35 degree range. I now post between 36.5 and 37. So something good is happening.
I've found anything over 50 of preg to be over stimulating and suspect cortisol. The discovery that DHEA throws the situation in reverse is an indicator. I'll try a 50mg AM combo and see how it goes.
Have you used t3/4 in the past and do you consider it the precursor of your own issues?
11-29-2013, 11:19 AM
hey Guys Great posts here and once again touching on the E2 levels , normal and high, symptoms of low/high. I forgot to mention this past June I started on TRT. Test cyp 100 mg weekly for only about 6-8 weeks. Thing is I think i "foolishly" trusted this GP who was also into Anti-Aging. My Lowest Total T I have had on Quest labs is 600. But my Bio and Free were in the tank and that is why i felt bad, low libido, ED etc. But my Total # did go up over a 1000 and Free and Bio came into normal values, but not in the upper 2/3 of those, in which I desire. But My question is Do you think the exog Test i took converted to E2 and it is "high"? I did not start an AI right away, but I have all the symptoms now. but the MAIN giveaway seems to be my underarm scent, which is diff, almost feminine. No Gyno but sensitive nipples, clickinng joints, Shrunken Penis and Testicles, Low libido, general blah mood, not depressed, Just no real desire to do anything. Please advise.
11-29-2013, 11:43 AM
Yes I use to use Armour was on 4 grains and my Free T3 was at the top of the range but I was hyper all that time and blamed it on Estradiol being high. The FDA pulls Armour a few yrs. back and we had to scramble to find NTH meds. So most of use being mod's went on Synthroid adding Cytomel 5mcgs 4x’s /day. So today I am on 150 mcgs. of Synthroid and the Cytomel T3 4x's / day.
Later one a new study came saying this combo is working better then NTH meds and I agree.
As for Preg. I do Life Flo Health, Organic Living, Pregnenolone, 2 oz (57 g) One pump / day. And in time my Prog. levels when up pasted mid range and this is helping to keep my E2 levels down.
I have a lot on my plate being Hypopituitary my Pituitary dose not tell my body to make enough hormones.
Here is a copy of my meds and supplements.
• Aromasin or the generic 25 mgs. up to 3x’s/day or as needed.
• Aspirin 81 mg 2x’s/day.
• Alprazolam(Xanax) .25 mg. 4x’s/day.
• Atenolol 25 mg. 2x/day morning and noon for heart beta-blocker.
• Triamterene/HCTZ 37.5/25 mgs. Everyday.
• Cialis 5 mgs / day for BP and BPH.
• Testosterone Cypionate 200mgs/ml. at .4 ml. or 80 mgs shot every 3 days subQ.
• Pregnyl Mdv/ inj 10 ml. HCG shot 250 IU’s E3D the day before Testosterone shot.
• Celebrex 200 mgs. 2x/day morning and dinner.
• Hydrocortisone (Cortef) 30 mgs. total 10 mgs morning, 5mgs at 9am, 5 mgs at 1pm, 5 mgs at 6pm and 5mgs at bedtime.
• Florinef .1 mgs. 1x’s/day with ½ tsp. of Sea Salt added to water 27oz 3 to 4x’s/day.
• Cytomel 5mcgs 4x’s /day.
• Concerta 18 mgs 1x’s /day.
• Synthroid generic 150 mcgs./day.
• Potassium Chloride 20 mgs every other day.
• Ferrous Fumarate Iron pills 324 mgs 1x/day.
• Thera-Gesic Analgesic pain cream morning and dinner for shoulder.
• Twinlab, L-Arginine & L-Ornithine, 100 Capsules 1/day at bedtime
• NOW brand ZMA 800mgs 3 at bedtime.
• Copper 2mgs 1 at noon.
• Dr. Cranton's PrimeNutrients 3/day.
• Iodoral Iodine 1 tab / day 12.5 mgs.
• Life Flo Health, Organic Living, Pregnenolone, 2 oz (57 g) One pump / day.
• I went with NOW brand for the following supplements do to a high levels on a Homocysteine Cardiovascular and below normal level of Folate RBC labs.
• TMG 750mg 1pm and 11pm 2 pills a day.
• Solary Super Bio C 2 x’s/day 1000 mgs. Total I don’t take this is my B vit.’s.
• Life Extension, Vitamin D3, 2,000 IU, 1 fl oz 16 drops / day morning.
• Thorne Research, Folacal, 60 Veggie Caps
• Now Foods, Melatonin, 3 mg, 60 Capsules
• The Real Food Trading Company, Himalayan Pink Sea Salt
• NAC N-Acetyl Cysteine, Selenium, Molybdenum - 600 mg. 3x’s / day.
• B-12 (Brain) Methylcobalamin - 5000 mcg lozenges. 3x’s/week.
• Coenzyme B Complex 2x’s /day.
• Thorne Research, Pyridoxal 5'-Phosphate, 60 Veggie Caps 3x’s / day.
• I am taking 800 mcg. Folacal for low Folate RBC.
The following supplements are for the damage to my muscles from Statin Drugs.
• BioCitrate Selenium - 200 mcg 1x’s / day morning.
• Krill Oil capliques 500 mgs. 1 with food morning mercola.com
• Ubiquinol Capliques Featuring Kaneka's Qh (200mgs) 3x’s/day mercola.com.
• Lecithin From Sunflower NOW brand 1200 mgs 1x’s/day.
• Acetyl-L Carnitine 500 mg 3x’s/day.
• Alpha Lipoic Acid 250 mg/day.
• Life Extension, Super-Absorbable Tocotrienols, 60 Softgels One at dinner.
• Innate Response Formulas, Flora 50-14, Clinical Strength 1/day.
• Now Foods, Super Enzymes, 1 pill before each meal.
• Vitamin K2 Mercoloa.com one / day.
• Source Naturals, Magnesium Bis-Glycinate One 2x’s / day.
11-29-2013, 02:10 PM
11-29-2013, 06:10 PM
That is a comprehensive list. My first impression is, how do you shrink a list like that? I'm interested in the hypo pit situation. I'm wondering how much western diet/lifestyle was involved in that decline?
This is my basic daily diet at present:
600ml fresh double cream
2 tablespoons coconut oil - impressive thyroid support
3 or 4 decent pork loin chops per day (pork is low iron and low tryptophan)
a couple of cooked pears and peaches
half a dozen cooked whole eggs
Whole fat natural yoghurt
1 x raw carrot - contains a unique fibre that removes estrogen from the gut (while so many other fibres are actually estrogenic)
various vitamin supps.
lots of rock salt with mineral water - tap water is a no go
potassium as cream of tartar (baking product)
This diet provides my calories, food groups and nutrition. It is also cleaning my blood and tissues like a scouring pad - driving out all the years of unsat fats and various plant estrogens. I will not take fish oil - I think it is estrogenic and counterproductive.
As an update, I had to move up to a half Adex tonight - just as you suggested. It cleared the anxiety. However.... I did not get that flat depressed feeling as the E cleared my plasma. Instead I got a sort of smooth, blunt high. This is about day 9 or ten. So, I think I am feeling the T hitting a new high at last. The emotionality of E is being replaced with the functionality of T! I supped with 25mg DHEA tonight with the Adex - to give my boys extra raw material. I also went for a couple of fast one mile walks to speed up the metabolism of any estrogen and cortisol. I suspect my sleep still will not improve as the stimulatory effects of new T kick in, but at least it's anabolic effects are improving my physical well being.
On reflection, as I have improved in health over the last six months, I still had the E anxiety problems - especially at night and more pronounced. I think I know what this is. It's all the cr@ppy plant and animal estrogen being liberated from my tissues. The only thing I can do is therefore lower my own E to compensate while this stuff gets flushed out. Ray Peat suggests 1 to 4 years to get complete resolution. It's worth it. I'd rather be handling this at 45 than 65!
Here is a great summary of estrogen related mood issues. It's aimed at women, but guys can expect this exact same nervous depression when the E gets a grip. How Hormone Imbalance Can Cause Depression
11-29-2013, 06:11 PM
11-30-2013, 11:22 AM
Yes it's a lot I am Hypopituitary due to a head injury some 32 yrs ago from an auto accident we did an MRI on my Pituitary and it was tumor free. But the MRI showed some damage from the Head Injury. So most of the supplements I take are for helping my Thyroid, Adrenal Problems, Heart and low Testosterone.
After my Heart Surgey I was put on Statin Drugs and after 2 yrs. on them and complaing about them all the time I was taken off them with I could not stand up or walk anymore. I need a walker to stand and walk and when I do I am in a lot of pain I am lucky I don't have this pain sitting or laying down.
So a lot of them supplements are for the Statin Drugs damage and I just stated a new one called Idebenone 150 mgs.
All my meds and supplements are approved by 3 Dr.'s I see and not long ago when I was seeing my Heart Dr. my wife complained about all the supplements I am on and he told her this is why my heart recovered to 100% and why I am still alive.
As for trying the Idebenone 150 mgs it is a type of CoQ10 and some one posted to me that has Statin Drug damag that taking this they are back to work and riding there bike again after being layed up 2 yrys.
WHAT IS IT?
Idebenone is an analogue of Coenzyme Q10.
WHAT DOES IT DO?
In most respects, Idebenone shares its traits with Coenzyme Q10. Like Coenzyme Q10 is might be useful for aging. It differs from it in some important ways, which may make it more useful. Under certain circumstances, Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) may become a pro-oxidant. These circumstances are conditions in which hypoxia or lack of oxygen occurs. In cases of shock, heart attack, stroke, or poor circulation, CoQ10 auto-oxidizes and unleashes massive amounts of various free radicals that damage delicate tissues and because CoQ10 is necessary for electron transport and ATP (chemical energy) production, cellular death may ensue. Idebenone, on the other hand, suppresses free radicals and continues ATP production in hypoxic situations. This may make it a useful supplement for individuals at risk for those conditions.
Other important traits of Idebenone not shared by CoQ10 include the ability to raise the brain's serotonin levels like the SSRI antidepressants (Prozac) and it also increases the brain levels of nerve growth factor. Another trait is to protect the myelin sheath from damage as well as the mitochondria that has important implications in Multiple Sclerosis.
The ability to enhance serotonin production occurs even under less than optimal conditions such as those whose diet contains little L-Tryptophan.
Naturally, nerve growth is a desired result in many conditions. In Alzheimer's Disease, for example, several studies show dose dependent improvements when compared to placebo as measured by different tests when taking Idebenone. An abstract said, "Treatment with idebenone was found effective on memory, attention, and orientation and in slowing down the natural progressive worsening of the disease."
The following conditions may benefit from Idebenone: Brain enhancement as a nootropic, stroke, Alzheimer's, dementia, surgical candidates, cardiovascular, MS, other demyelination conditions, aging, depression, Friedreich's Ataxia, and liver problems.
Few adverse reactions have been noted with this substance even at doses of 900 mg daily.
Idebenone is an analog (variation) of Coenzyme Q10, a powerful anti-oxidant biochemical known also as "ubiquinone" and most commonly as CoQ10. This substance is the energy producing unit of our body cells. Every process in our bodies requires CoQ10. Without CoQ10 life stops.
Benefits of CoQ10 in autism are:
Supplies energy necessary for proper Immune Response
Strong antioxidant power to help prevent free radical damage
Provides energy for the natural detoxification process in the liver
Helps fight off Candida and bacterial and viral infections
Helps correct immunodeficiencies
Desire to engage in more conversation
Idebenone supplies all of the same benefits as CoQ10 plus some distinct advantages based on its more complex chemical structure. Though very similar in chemical make-up to CoQ10, its longer chain organic structure gives it extra powerful anti-oxidant properties making it a more effective "free radical quencher" resulting in less cell and tissue damage.
Some leading doctors treating autism believe that Idebenone offers three very distinct advantages over CoQ10 in supplementing developmental disorders.
Studies show that Idebenone enhances brain structure and function
Its superior anti-oxidant properties protect body organs more efficiently
Offers protection against excitatory amino acid neurotoxicity from ingestion of these ingredients through the diet (Examples: MSG, artificial sweeteners, canned soups and meats, spices, etc.)
11-30-2013, 11:54 PM
Hey guys, my E2 is 26 and my SHBG is 43 (range 16.5-55.9). If I want to drop my SHBG down and increase free T, do you guys recommend arimidex, TRT, or using stinging nettle root?
12-01-2013, 08:40 AM
In your opinion, what are your physical symptoms that indicate low T????
Do you take any drugs? How good is your sleep? Are you a vegan?
IMO Your E2 is perfect. Your SHBG is not that bad(mine is 80). Stinging Nettles Root Extract will not lower SHBG, but, it will bind to some of it and slightly
increase Free T(for a while). Your TT level is reasonable.
With that being said, if you want to alter your HPTA, here are some ideas (not advice or recommendations)
With your LH in the three's, your best bet to raise your TT and FT level, is to increase your testes output, with really low dose CLOMID (and monitor your E2) or low dose SUBLINGUAL HcG (real Pharm HcG). But before you use Pharms to nudge your hormones, get a baseline blood test for DHEAs, TT, FT, E2, SHBG, DHT, Prolactin, cortisol, TSH, free T4 and T3, D3(25 hydroxy), B12, and a full blood panel.
12-01-2013, 09:30 AM
I agree with MrTT, don't go chasing things for no reason. If there are actual symptoms, then get full bloodwork and begin there. Don't just throw things into your system in hopes of achieving a number.
Even those of us on TRT know that you can't chase numbers. Could I make my T levels in the 1000's if I wanted- yeah, but it isn't better.
12-01-2013, 11:04 AM
Your not on TRT so don't try Arimidex or even DIM try some Zinc 50 mgs / 2 mgs of Copper this helps keep your testis healthy and helps to keep E2 down. Stay away from Soy, eating or drinking water from plastic bottles they leach E's in to your food and water so don't heat up food in plastic. Take 2 mgs of Copper at noon and the 50 mgs of Zinc at bedtime Zinc can lower Copper so take Copper with Zinc.
12-01-2013, 12:49 PM
First of all, I appreciate you all taking the time to give me some feedback. Thank you very much.
Secondly, I just wanted to share a bit more info on my history, I have had libido/performance issues for the past 10 years among other things such as anxiety/cognitive issues, excessive sweating/oily, I'm just now realizing that my doctors didn't know anything and steered me in the wrong direction and I'm putting a lot of effort into researching and getting a full picture of my hormone levels. My free T has fluctuated between 10.7 and 14.5 over the past 2 years. Some resources I have read say that <15 free T is synonymous with low T symptoms. I believe my low-ish free T is a result of high SHBG. Although, I also have low FSH 1.2 (range 1.5-18.5) which indicates a potential pituitary issue.
excerpt from my private MD labs:
LH 3.6 ( range 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL CB)
FSH 1.2 LOW (range 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL CB)
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 43.4 (range 16.5-55.9 nmol/L CB)
Testosterone, Serum 620 ( range 348-1197 ng/dL CB)
Free T 14.2 pg/mL (range 9.3-26.5) < In 2012 it was 10.9 (range 8.9-55)
Estradiol 26.9 ( range 7.6-42.6 pg/mL CB)
There are a lot of tests I still plan to get from private MD labs: thyroid panel/DHEA/cortisol saliva 24 hr/progesterone, but I'm not really sure which ones should be the priority. I'm also focusing on excercising more, eating more protein, sleeping more, taking zinc 50mg a day in addition to a multi. I'll try to pick up a copper supplement as well.
12-01-2013, 03:01 PM
12-01-2013, 09:27 PM
directlabs.com has D3 blood test on sale for $39. I have been able to combine Directlabs.com and privatemdlabs.com scripts into one blood draw at labcorp.
12-01-2013, 10:01 PM
12-02-2013, 10:10 AM
12-02-2013, 11:31 AM
12-02-2013, 12:58 PM
Good LH level but low FSH level could be DNA (Have you considered 23andME testing??? I just checked the site and they are still selling test kits.)
I don't know if low FSH affects libido. I self experiment, (not always a good idea) but, HcG looks like TSH, LH, and FSH to your body. I wonder if sublingualing a sensible dose of HcG would help with your symptoms, and give you additional information and medical path to look into ???
12-02-2013, 02:04 PM
When a Total T level of 620 your LH should be low meaning your brain sees your TT levels at 620 are good the LH and FSH messages sent from your brain tells your testis to make more Testosterone. So all I am saying is withy a TT level of 620 your LH is low because your brain feels your TT levels are high enough.
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