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    Men's Issues


    We will start to cover a lot of men's issues at the LG Sciences forum. I am a very strong male right advocate and I think men have been getting the raw deal in our society for quite a long time and enough is enough.

    To start, I would like everyone to look at a book called "The Myth Of Male Power" which details the BULL**** that women's groups push in the media about how women are treated unfairly.

    Unfair?

    Do you realize that women have over 80% of the spending power in a family? Even though men supposedly make more than women...

    Men coming out of relationships are much more likely to commit suicide then women...

    30% of Women will take back a cheating spouse where 70% of men will...

    In the first Gulf War, there was a 3-1 ratio of men to women yet the men die at a 9-1 ratio...the media reports that women share the same "duties" as the men and the same risk...how do you explain a 9-1 death rate then?

    I will follow with even more cool stats that will provide food for thought.

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    Good posting. I do believe woman have more of an adavantage over men in every aspect of life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Good posting. I do believe woman have more of an adavantage over men in every aspect of life.
    I fully agree. Sadly, I'm used to this.. I'm sure we all are
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    I took a class on Sociology of Gender , aka man hatin' 101, and it is ridiculous some of the stuff they were trying to teach us. Did you know most feminist consider it oppressive to hold a door open for a women because it implies that they are to weak to do it themselves. Needless to say I have not held a door for a woman from that class since. Would have loved some info like this during that class.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Good posting. I do believe woman have more of an adavantage over men in every aspect of life.
    Really? We operate in a capital system based on patriarchy. Property rights were primarily male, and not much has changed; Judeo-Christian society as a whole is patriarchal, period.

    I'm sure men are subject to sexual assault to a greater degree than women....oh wait.

    Well, women must control a greater share of the world's largest TNC/NGOs/Fortune 500.....oops.

    Well, the top 5% of wage-earners must be primarily female....nope, not that either.

    Hmm...the judicial system? No, try again...

    Political representation in either Canada or the US's parliament houses.....

    Men are subject to objectification in media en masse...****, I am striking out here...

    A greater proportion of the bottom 5% of wage earners are male?...Nope, opposite again.
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    Umm...men are exposed to environmental harm to a more veracious degree due to critical encounters between harmful climatic elements and patriarchal structures of capital?...Man! What the ****? Give me something!

    Men in developing countries face a tangible reality of poverty, or prostitution?...

    I respect, though do not agree, with the sentiment being expressed here, but it is horribly misinformed. If you feel we have reached gender equity at this point, you are not paying attention. Some of the more stringent feminists bother me completely, I agree there - however, to say women are advantaged daily is ridiculous.
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    Maybe 1/4 males has been sexually assaulted by a close friend or family member...no?....really?...kay hold on...
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    I guess it depends where in the U.S. that you live. In northern New England its full of feminist/Carpet Munchers/Lilly lickers. However if you live in the South, it is a different story.
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    Wait! I have it! Men worker longer hours, especially in developing nations?...No, dammit..

    Well, men consistently perform unpaid domestic labour constituting the aptly named, 'second shift', right?...No? That is women too? Wtf?!

    Wait, wait. The AIDS epidemic is very equally distributed upon engendered lines, right?..No, dammit.

    Okay, okay, what about violence? Men are subjected to way more female-to-male violence, especially in a domestic respect, right? Wrong again?!

    Alright, well sexual mutilation, there we go, that is an inherently female-to-male phenomena in tribal communities, right? No? Faack!
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I guess it depends where in the U.S. that you live. In northern New England its full of feminist/Carpet Munchers/Lilly lickers. However if you live in the South, it is a different story.
    This is not a geographical issue, but a human one. If you feel males and females populate the United States exclusively, you are also not paying attention.

    Over-zealous feminists bother the hell out of me. There is a point of political correctness - that they often cross - that one should adhere to. Overrepresenting that level of 'PC' can be obnoxious. However, we are not approaching gender equity anytime soon.
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    Sorry, I am still in shock I am listening to presumably white, middle-class males complain about their socio-economic status. You have to be ****ing kidding me!
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    Ok Mullet, I yield. You win.
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    I do have to agree with Mullet here gender equality has not been reached but it is nice to see both sides of the story.
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    Equity means economic, social, cultural and political equality between genders, not either gender holding an upper hand. Feminist groups can seem obnoxious in their demands, but they are not operating on a level playing field.

    Anyway, I saw this thread and was flabbergasted. I really have nothing else to contribute because it is not even up for debate. Before I do leave, a question: I know about 5 females, relatively close to me, who have been raped by someone whom was close to them. How many of you have been personally raped, or know another male who was?

    Pfft, female bias, give me a ****ing break.
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    I agree with Mullet. As a divorced woman I can tell you we don't automatically have the advantage. In the job market I don't get paid more or get special advantages.

    I also don't get protected in the court sysytem any easier. You know I had an ex that was violent and I tried to get a restraining order. I had a multitude of police runs where he corned me and chased me...did I get the order..nope! They told me he had to hit me first. So basically I had to have what the order is supposed to prevent in order to actually get the help.

    I also have no problem with a guy opening a door for me. I find it very sweet. However I will do the same..its respect not feminism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Alright, well sexual mutilation, there we go, that is an inherently female-to-male phenomena in tribal communities, right? No? Faack!
    Are you counting Circumcision in that?

    I think you misspoke.

    (other than that, got it nailed so far.)

    EDIT: Ok, technically this country is NOT a tribal community in a direct manner, though the argument can be made that it still applies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Are you counting Circumcision in that?

    I think you misspoke.

    (other than that, got it nailed so far.)
    Truth. However, I was alluding to clitoral removal in African (and some SouthEast Asian) tribal communities upon puberty.
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    Look, you can certainly point out many things that are done to women and it is true that they have additional issues, but the foreign issues you bring up do not impact us as a society (also, please try not to speak in rhetorical statements, since it really makes it tough to read, not criticizing as much as saying it is tough to read). I am not saying that they are not important, just that they are not something we can effect in general. What I personally want is equal rights. It is so funny that if a man has issues that are unfair and unequal, instead of focusing on those issues, it is presumed that they are not important because women also have issues to contend with in life.

    You have good points, but they are certainly debatable. For example:

    Your economic statistics are biased by the fact that men are forced into higher pressure roles, while women overwhelmingly choose positions and professions that give them a greater quality of life vs. earning potential. So, the bias is one that is possibly due to these choices and there is good data to support this argument. Also, why is EARNING placed above all other things in this society? Is it possible that earning isn't really as important if your life is 10 years shorter?

    What I am for is equal treatment for all people and that mens issues have just as much importance in the world than women's issues. We don't at all focus on men's issues, which is what spurred this on. So, as usual, just because women have issues, men's issues which are germane to me, are minimized and I think that is wrong.

    If society can focus on men's issues, perhaps we can help eliminate these issues for all people.

    As for violence, that is really a very ugly situation, since I would wager that emotional abuse (which is largely uncounted) has just as big an impact on society as physical abuse.

    The point stands that men have a very tough time in society and are subject to unfair treatment under the law in so many cases. Not to minimized women's issues, but there are already groups that push that agenda.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Really? We operate in a capital system based on patriarchy. Property rights were primarily male, and not much has changed; Judeo-Christian society as a whole is patriarchal, period.

    I'm sure men are subject to sexual assault to a greater degree than women....oh wait.
    Can't argue that.

    Well, women must control a greater share of the world's largest TNC/NGOs/Fortune 500.....oops.
    Men do it

    Well, the top 5% of wage-earners must be primarily female....nope, not that either.

    Hmm...the judicial system? No, try again...

    Political representation in either Canada or the US's parliament houses.....

    Men are subject to objectification in media en masse...****, I am striking out here...

    A greater proportion of the bottom 5% of wage earners are male?...Nope, opposite again.
    Women get into night clubs for free before 10pm. Boom, you've been refuted Just kidding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegalGear View Post
    Look, you can certainly point out many things that are done to women and it is true that they have additional issues, but the foreign issues you bring up do not impact us as a society (also, please try not to speak in rhetorical statements, since it really makes it tough to read, not criticizing as much as saying it is tough to read). I am not saying that they are not important, just that they are not something we can effect in general.
    Incorrect. Cultures of sexuality are general by nature - reciprocally enforced and agreed upon by all members of coherent 'society', as you put it. Our current economy of sexual power lays squarely in male hands, and via that inequity sexual assaults are readily committed upon females. Of course you can affect it, you choose not to.

    What I personally want is equal rights. It is so funny that if a man has issues that are unfair and unequal, instead of focusing on those issues, it is presumed that they are not important because women also have issues to contend with in life.
    I never said your issues were unimportant, merely you are uninformed. See the following:

    You have good points, but they are certainly debatable. For example:

    Your economic statistics are biased by the fact that men are forced into higher pressure roles, while women overwhelmingly choose positions and professions that give them a greater quality of life vs. earning potential. So, the bias is one that is possibly due to these choices and there is good data to support this argument. Also, why is EARNING placed above all other things in this society? Is it possible that earning isn't really as important if your life is 10 years shorter?
    Incorrect. Women are most often relegated to their occupation, as hiring-bias still exists in a larger portion of the world. Affirmative action has unfortunately convoluted the issue, but to say women CHOOSE unpaid domestic labor and prostitution is beyond ridiculous. Your point is not well made here, as neither are men forced into higher paying, 'higher pressure' situation.

    What I am for is equal treatment for all people and that mens issues have just as much importance in the world than women's issues. We don't at all focus on men's issues, which is what spurred this on. So, as usual, just because women have issues, men's issues which are germane to me, are minimized and I think that is wrong.
    That is my point, if it is yours, you are making it very poorly.

    As for violence, that is really a very ugly situation, since I would wager that emotional abuse (which is largely uncounted) has just as big an impact on society as physical abuse.
    Your point here?

    The point stands that men have a very tough time in society and are subject to unfair treatment under the law in so many cases. Not to minimized women's issues, but there are already groups that push that agenda.
    Shared custody cases, that is about it.

    I made approximately twenty points, which I can call up the data if need be. You argued two of them, very poorly, so I feel you have made my case for me.
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    To answer your question, I know many men who have been "date raped" even though it is not called that since men are not subject to "rape". My own brother woke up from being drunk to find a woman in his dorm on top of him. Is that rape? I have been pressured in 90% of my relationships to have sex quite honestly. Not that I am opposed to sex, but the pressure was quite heavy in so many cases. I tried to refrain because I didn't want the "now that we slept together you are not dating anyone else" speech.

    Have you ever been pressured into having sex? I certainly have on more occasions that I care to recognize. As I got older I didn't rush into sex because I didn't want the aggravation of someone thinking she "sacrificed" something. Last I checked sex is pleasurable for both parties...
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegalGear View Post
    To answer your question, I know many men who have been "date raped" even though it is not called that since men are not subject to "rape". My own brother woke up from being drunk to find a woman in his dorm on top of him. Is that rape? I have been pressured in 90% of my relationships to have sex quite honestly. Not that I am opposed to sex, but the pressure was quite heavy in so many cases. I tried to refrain because I didn't want the "now that we slept together you are not dating anyone else" speech.

    Have you ever been pressured into having sex? I certainly have on more occasions that I care to recognize. As I got older I didn't rush into sex because I didn't want the aggravation of someone thinking she "sacrificed" something. Last I checked sex is pleasurable for both parties...
    Please for the love of all holy ****ing unicorns please tell me you are not trying to argue that men are subject to the same levels of sexual assault as females..please...just say it ain't so. My head literally may spontaneously explode off of my body.
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    This is not in defense or prosecution of either case, just sharing this story because of the post above me. My friend got drunk, passed out and woke up with a girl flossing her teeth with his little buddy, but he pretended to still be asleep and let it go on.

    Edit: Okay, Mullet got there too soon, the one above Mullet.
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    Of course not...women, being usually physically weaker are subject to far higher rates of sexual assault. Does that make the cases where it does happen less valid?

    Why is it that it isn't ok to provide a counter point without the men's issue being minimized? This is the whole problem in my eyes. We are not discussing women's issues here, we are discussing men's issues. No offense, but you can find a nice feminist forum if you want. If ONE man has been sexually assaulted by a woman, I would like to provide a place where we can discuss it without being overshadowed by "your issue is nothing compared to women"...minimizing. This is the issue and I think this is EXACTLY how men are being screwed. We can never get to the true men's issues because people like you cry FOUL when men's issues are brought up.

    Men have been shut down for so many years in society because we have "5% of the top wage earners"...Yeah, tell that to the guy whose wife ****ed his best friend and yet he still owes alimony. I doubt that it provides much comfort knowing that men as a whole are better off according to the biased statistics.

    Men are individuals and should be allowed to have a place to discuss their own issues without being minimized by your feminist propaganda. This, being a 99% male dominated forum is a very good place for that discussion to be facilitated.

    Your story and the one of my brother are just the problem...your friend pretended to be asleep because society taught him to not cry "rape". I am sure it happens more often than we care to know. I am sure he didn't think of himself as being raped because of the brain washing that occurs which teaches "women and children first". Why? Why is my life worth less than a woman? Why "women and children first?" Why not just "children first"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegalGear View Post
    Of course not...women, being usually physically weaker are subject to far higher rates of sexual assault. Does that make the cases where it does happen less valid?

    Why is it that it isn't ok to provide a counter point without the men's issue being minimized? This is the whole problem in my eyes. We are not discussing women's issues here, we are discussing men's issues. No offense, but you can find a nice feminist forum if you want. If ONE man has been sexually assaulted by a woman, I would like to provide a place where we can discuss it without being overshadowed by "your issue is nothing compared to women"...minimizing. This is the issue and I think this is EXACTLY how men are being screwed. We can never get to the true men's issues because people like you cry FOUL when men's issues are brought up.

    Men have been shut down for so many years in society because we have "5% of the top wage earners"...Yeah, tell that to the guy whose wife ****ed his best friend and yet he still owes alimony. I doubt that it provides much comfort knowing that men as a whole are better off according to the biased statistics.

    Men are individuals and should be allowed to have a place to discuss their own issues without being minimized by your feminist propaganda. This, being a 99% male dominated forum is a very good place for that discussion to be facilitated.

    Your story and the one of my brother are just the problem...your friend pretended to be asleep because society taught him to not cry "rape". I am sure it happens more often than we care to know. I am sure he didn't think of himself as being raped because of the brain washing that occurs which teaches "women and children first". Why? Why is my life worth less than a woman? Why "women and children first?" Why not just "children first"?
    After all this rhetoric, you still have not refuted a single one of my points objectively. Also, why is that when I disprove your poorly made arguments you relegate me to, 'a female only forum'. What is incredibly ironic about that statement is it reveals one of the most patriarchal aspects of any collective - its language use. Because I do not agree with your short-sighted and misogynistic views, I must be a feminist, and you are equating feminist with 'bad', in this specific respect.

    The statistics I have brought up are not bias, in any sense. Most of the stats I brought up are most likely understated due to census error (non-response, inability to collect), or fear-induced non-response (especially in respects to sexual assault).

    I am not 'crying foul', I just know you are wrong; while, on the other hand, your tantrum, which has gone from argument to blabber, does make it seem as if you are crying. I am not minimizing anything. If it seems as such, maybe you are reconciling your poorly constructed logic with reality?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    After all this rhetoric, you still have not refuted a single one of my points objectively. Also, why is that when I disprove your poorly made arguments you relegate me to, 'a female only forum'. What is incredibly ironic about that statement is it reveals one of the most patriarchal aspects of any collective - its language use. Because I do not agree with your short-sighted and misogynistic views, I must be a feminist, and you are equating feminist with 'bad', in this specific respect.

    The statistics I have brought up are not bias, in any sense. Most of the stats I brought up are most likely understated due to census error (non-response, inability to collect), or fear-induced non-response (especially in respects to sexual assault).

    I am not 'crying foul', I just know you are wrong; while, on the other hand, your tantrum, which has gone from argument to blabber, does make it seem as if you are crying. I am not minimizing anything. If it seems as such, maybe you are reconciling your poorly constructed logic with reality?

    I have much respect for you contributions Mullet, but you didn't refute any of LG's points, just interjected your own to show that women in general are disadvantaged in certain ways. We are not here to refute your points; refuting your points isn't what this discussion is about. What's wrong with aknowledging that women can and do have advantages in certain areas and situations? One MUST acknowledge such advantages as are seen in custody cases and divorces/alimony arrangements as well as disadvantages women face in order to be fair. Heck, they get to be an instrument in the creation of new life, something men will never experience, but that's because we are different. Being "Different" from one another INHERENTLY means there will be advantages and disadvantages between men and women. Just because women have disadvantages doesn't mean they don't have any advantages.

    I also think you are using a global perspective on these things whereas LG seems to be using a more North American perspective. North America is far more accomodating to women with regard to rights than much of the rest of the world. I think this is where the majority of this aparent disagreement comes from.

    I, however would like to have a discussion along the lines proposed by LG instead of having others come in and say: "Wait! We can't have such sentiments or discuss such things because 'this' happened or 'that' has happened." We acknowledge such things, but we wish to MOVE ON, and speak to the original topic.

    Thank you
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    My issue, as an intelligent middle class engineer, is that where I work female engineers are given an advantage in the company performance appraisals.

    It's akin to me hitting off the men's tees while they hit off the kid's tees.

    I'm all for female scientists and engineers - but if we expect solutions to the huge issues facing this world, we really shouldn't be applauding some detail rather ability to perform the task (in my case be a competent engineer).


    Other than that - dunno.

    I know females that have gotten roommates because they were afraid of whatever. I know some that won't walk or go places late at night on their own.
    I went to Wal-mart the other night at 10pm. (Some girls I know wouldn't go to the one that I went to after dark.)

    I get what Mullet is saying. Rape and physical abuse is a much bigger issue with women.
    Not to say some of us males didn't grow up under a household of physical abuse ourselves.
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    I work in an office where 2 out of 3 supervisors are female and the manager is female. In my previous job at a home improvement store females got the majority of the "sales specialist" positions where as the majority of the men had "stocking/physical" positions. Though I sold just as much if not more specialist products than my female co-workers, was certified and trained in more equipment, and had more time with the company, they got the sales specialist positions when they came up with the more accomadating scheduals that didn't run crazy hours until 12:00am sometimes. Guess they figured I would do the company more good by lifting heavy things than selling $5,000+ orders more than just in my spare time working there. Our trainer, our HR manager, and our department manager were all female; seemed it was just too much of a girls club to move upward. I moved on to much better things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saludable24 View Post
    I have much respect for you contributions Mullet, but you didn't refute any of LG's points, just interjected your own to show that women in general are disadvantaged in certain ways. We are not here to refute your points; refuting your points isn't what this discussion is about.
    Incorrect. LG's thesis, self-stated, was the following:

    I think men have been getting the raw deal in our society for quite a long time and enough is enough.

    To start, I would like everyone to look at a book called "The Myth Of Male Power" which details the BULL**** that women's groups push in the media about how women are treated unfairly.

    Unfair?
    His tone, or his following rhetoric, was not specific, but rather disputing gender inequity as a whole. Maybe he and you are arguing differing points?

    What's wrong with aknowledging that women can and do have advantages in certain areas and situations? One MUST acknowledge such advantages as are seen in custody cases and divorces/alimony arrangements as well as disadvantages women face in order to be fair. Heck, they get to be an instrument in the creation of new life, something men will never experience, but that's because we are different. Being "Different" from one another INHERENTLY means there will be advantages and disadvantages between men and women. Just because women have disadvantages doesn't mean they don't have any advantages.
    I did, here:

    Shared custody cases, that is about
    As well as acknowledging the uselessness and unfair nature of affirmative action.

    I also think you are using a global perspective on these things whereas LG seems to be using a more North American perspective. North America is far more accomodating to women with regard to rights than much of the rest of the world. I think this is where the majority of this aparent disagreement comes from.
    The vast majority of my stats were from a North American perspective. As well, if your Nikes were made in a sweatshop which perpetuates such gender inequities, that is a North American phenomenon. Civil rights, and property or capital rights are different beings; in the latter respect, women are still not equal in North America.

    I, however would like to have a discussion along the lines proposed by LG instead of having others come in and say: "Wait! We can't have such sentiments or discuss such things because 'this' happened or 'that' has happened." We acknowledge such things, but we wish to MOVE ON, and speak to the original topic.

    Thank you
    Despite your wish to separate the two - it will not happen. Why? Because the sentiment, in general, is horribly misinformed. One needs to separate the ability to insist on rights in specific agreements (i.e., divorce court) from general inequity (the overwhelmingly negative experience of everyday life).

    Thank you.
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