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  1.  07-02-2008  03:41 PM
    Registered User Zero Tolerance's Avatar
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    I'm okay because I secretly save money on my own. So I have plenty in the event I need it for anything. It just sucks having to keep secrets in a marriage. For years I asked her to save just a thousand dollars - and she could not. She's a hot little Puerto Rican woman that has some issues - but I love her and I love taking care of her - so I'll take the **** I get...

    Do not get married. Not until you're old. Even pre-nups are a waste of time. Just enjoy life until you can no longer do that by yourself. Or, if you find your dreamgirl - and nothing else matters - than go for it.

    If my wife wants a kid or two, I'll give them to her. I feel that even though I don't want them, it's not fair to take that opportunity away from her. If she wants to be a mother, I can't take that away from her. I just hope SHE WANTS a kid and it's not her whole stupid family bothering her with "so when are you going to have a child? You can't wait forever, you know"!

    Originally Posted by GuyverX View Post
    Zero, thats too tough for words.
    And people wonder why i am avoiding marriage like the plague.
    Not prejudging all women, but if I do become financially successful instead of just financially stable, I might get taken for all i am worth.
    Might sound chauvanist but the only adult woman I am supporting is going to be my mom in her old age.

    -----

    p.s. Zero you might want to take a trip to get yourself snipped. that is if you dont want kids.
    or make sure you keep your condoms in a safe place.



  2.  07-02-2008  03:56 PM
    Registered User Zero Tolerance's Avatar
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    My wife and I got married about the same time I started my business.. Before the actual business, I did the same type of work for myself. We both worked. At that point in time, everything seemed normal. In fact, she made a little more than me being I had left my job and started on my own.

    My decision on who to mate with wasn't horrible at all. I'm happy other than the fact that she can't save a dime. I can live with that. However, if things ever turn sour and we go our separate ways, she takes at least 50% of me with her. So now she's got her 100% - AND my 50%. Boy is it going to be easy for her to find a new man being 150% (at least) of a person! I'll have to hope I keep my youthful looks because at HALF a man, I'm not going to be very marketable...

    Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    You're right: being able to properly interpret data and events, and trying to form fair and balanced gender opinions must mean I'm a feminist.

    Simply because I'm not following the crowd and jumping in on the, "women suck!" sentiment, does not mean I'm ignoring the very real issues LG brought up; merely trying to interject some balance into the discussion.

    And because you made a horrible decision in whom you'd mate with, and are consequently butthurt about it, does not mean 'the woman' is keeping you down. Do men get unfairly and unrequitedly screwed in family (divorce) court, and paternity related manners? Yes, they sure do; I recognized that a few times. As I said though Zero, you have to; a) separate the ability to insist on decisions in certain legal situations from culture wide power; and b) stop looking at gender issues so ethnocentrically - because women's lot in life has improved very significantly in the West, does not mean we are that far from the mid 1800's in other parts of the world.

  3.  07-02-2008  04:04 PM
    Binging on Pure ****ing Rage Mulletsoldier's Avatar
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    If you knew you were going to marry this woman, why would you not have discussed the financial details of your union? Both in terms of within the union, and the unfortunate circumstance it would end? Despite bleeding heart-liberal bureaucrats using a band-aid solution to a dam-sized problem (gender inequity, that is), and creating unfair divorce/paternity laws, they do not force you to get married; the government does not force you to engage in casual encounters; the government does not force you to not wear a condom; and the government most definitely does not force you or anybody else to wed.

    While some of these stories are unfortunate, I have not seen a single person offer what could even be slightly construed as responsibility for the actions which have transpired in their life. On the converse, the sentiment about women making .75 to every 1.00 in comparable situations is, "they haven't earned it". Well I see, in that particular context, individual responsibility is at heart, but in these mating choices, it's solely and deliberately the government, and women in general's fault.

    Before anybody in this thread begins convincing themselves that their lot in life as a male is universally and deliberately disadvantaged, take a few days and travel to East Hastings (you can stay on West Hastings, it is fine there). Talk to some of the immigrant prostitutes brought in by either the Asian or Biker gangs from South America/Southeast Asia, for the drug trafficking/prostitution trade alive and vibrant on the coast. Ask them how it feels to be given the option of performing sexual favors, or facing brutal beatings or death. Ask them if they agree with you that objectification does not exist - that women choose that way. Better yet, tell them that you willingly chose a partner, without necessarily knowing your rights, and the situation turned out unfavorably for you. I'm sure they'll agree that the white male is the most disadvantaged population sub-group on the planet.

    Originally Posted by Zero Tolerance View Post
    My wife and I got married about the same time I started my business.. Before the actual business, I did the same type of work for myself. We both worked. At that point in time, everything seemed normal. In fact, she made a little more than me being I had left my job and started on my own.

    My decision on who to mate with wasn't horrible at all. I'm happy other than the fact that she can't save a dime. I can live with that. However, if things ever turn sour and we go our separate ways, she takes at least 50% of me with her. So now she's got her 100% - AND my 50%. Boy is it going to be easy for her to find a new man being 150% (at least) of a person! I'll have to hope I keep my youthful looks because at HALF a man, I'm not going to be very marketable...

  4.  07-02-2008  04:11 PM
    Registered User GuyverX's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Triple Cs View Post
    I, if you read the thread on marriage, am stridently against it. There is no benefit in getting married vs. having a girlfriend, only a huge financial risk. The legal contract gave her the go ahead to not work. As far as marriage goes, Judeo-Christian theology requires that in order for a marriage to be valid the couple must have an "openness toward children".

    Still, guys need to take responsibility. What about asking for a pre-nup (no community property, no alimony)? She always intended to quit work, you ask for a pre-nup and you at least have some protection and it gives a window to her motivations (Is she getting married for love or are there parts of the legal contract that she really wants). If she doesn't work now, do you think she's going to put in the extra work that having kids will take (even as a stay-at-home mom)?

    As far as the guy being turned down for a vasectomy, he should have gone to another doctor. Planned Parenthood could refer you to a doctor that believes in the "my body, my choice" philosophy. However, most guys don't realize that the majority of women want babies as badly as we want sex. More women than you would think would be willing to go outside their marriage to get pregnant. There's nothing that you can do in that scenario except pay, its yours by law regardless of DNA. Even getting a vasectomy isn't enough protection if you are married, the law doesn't consider paternity fraud because it is still stuck in the age where an adulterous wife would receive brutal punishment. Besides, a vasectomy (if you haven't had a child already), violates the marriage requirement of "openness toward children"

    I think guys know what the risks are, they just subscribe to the "it won't happen to me" line of thinking. I have heard of the term marriage strike, maybe there needs to be a baby strike until the law changes.
    my cousin went to several doctors.
    they all gave him the 'too young' line and refused.
    one guy agreed off the record off insurance but he couldnt afford the price at the time.
    my company pays for it so I got mine ASAP.

  5.  07-02-2008  04:12 PM
    Registered User thebigt's Avatar
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    come on mullet, that is not a fair comparison. we re talking about men being disadvantaged in the legal system, how can you compare that to illegal acts perpetrated against illegal aliens.

  6.  07-02-2008  04:13 PM
    Registered User GuyverX's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Zero Tolerance View Post
    I'm okay because I secretly save money on my own. So I have plenty in the event I need it for anything. It just sucks having to keep secrets in a marriage. For years I asked her to save just a thousand dollars - and she could not. She's a hot little Puerto Rican woman that has some issues - but I love her and I love taking care of her - so I'll take the **** I get...

    Do not get married. Not until you're old. Even pre-nups are a waste of time. Just enjoy life until you can no longer do that by yourself. Or, if you find your dreamgirl - and nothing else matters - than go for it.

    If my wife wants a kid or two, I'll give them to her. I feel that even though I don't want them, it's not fair to take that opportunity away from her. If she wants to be a mother, I can't take that away from her. I just hope SHE WANTS a kid and it's not her whole stupid family bothering her with "so when are you going to have a child? You can't wait forever, you know"!
    from what i have seen and heard, marriage is definitely not for me. ever.
    too much risk without reward for me. love and companionship paling in comparison to freedom and my money being spent on what and whom I choose when I choose.

  7.  07-02-2008  04:18 PM
    Binging on Pure ****ing Rage Mulletsoldier's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    come on mullet, that is not a fair comparison. we re talking about men being disadvantaged in the legal system, how can you compare that to illegal acts perpetrated against illegal aliens.
    It was an analogy to point out that some of the complaints in this thread are being magnified to ridiculous degrees. Some (you included) have focused on the disadvantages of males in specific legal situations; many are complaining that women are universally advantaged - that's ridiculous.

    The point was this: plain and simple, as a male in western society (particularly a white male) you are afforded advantages in everyday situations over other sub-groups. Google, "White Privilege" for some interesting reading. In reality, males are not disadvantaged in a general sense, nor necessarily more disadvantaged than females. Do you face those same circumstances? Anybody you know? Didn't think so. In reality, your stock in life is not that bad.

    As well, the point was to showcase certain culture-wide attitudes which are differentiated from power in specific legal situations; somebody in this thread claimed female objectification doesn't exist. That process is defined as, "to treat as a mere object and deny the dignity of". Not positive, but I believe that fits the bill. You may not engage in any acts of soliciting prostitution yourself, but I guarantee you know somebody that has - even if at a strip club or otherwise. I'm also quite sure, that while you have thought it was disgusting, you didn't condemn it, nor consider the implications of such acts on culture-wide sexual attitudes surrounding women. "To make an object", as I said, I believe viewing a stripper as a hole constitutes that definition. While male strip clubs exist - and I'm sure the same lewd acts occur - the frequencies are incomparable.

  8.  07-02-2008  04:28 PM
    Binging on Pure ****ing Rage Mulletsoldier's Avatar
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    Anyway, I see no need to reinvolve myself in this thread. I made my points clear earlier, and there is no need to rehash them.

    At any rate, that debate is not the point of the thread anyway; I believe LG was merely attempting to point out some specific legal disadvantages (hopefully) and I initially misconstrued his purpose. Altering such ridiculously unfair laws for the better is a fine purpose, IMO, and not something I wish to perturb any further. I just saw it completely unnecessary for Zero Tolerance to involve me again with his comments.

  9.  07-02-2008  04:51 PM
    Registered User thebigt's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Anyway, I see no need to reinvolve myself in this thread. I made my points clear earlier, and there is no need to rehash them.

    At any rate, that debate is not the point of the thread anyway; I believe LG was merely attempting to point out some specific legal disadvantages (hopefully) and I initially misconstrued his purpose. Altering such ridiculously unfair laws for the better is a fine purpose, IMO, and not something I wish to perturb any further. I just saw it completely unnecessary for Zero Tolerance to involve me again with his comments.
    sorry you are withdrawing from this thread. i have issues with your comments about being advantaged by being a white male. given the title caucasion male means i stand on my own. i have no civil rights group representing me when i am singled out for merely being who i am. to me the only color with any advantage is green.

  10.  07-02-2008  05:09 PM
    Registered User Triple Cs's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Zero Tolerance View Post
    I'm okay because I secretly save money on my own. So I have plenty in the event I need it for anything. It just sucks having to keep secrets in a marriage. For years I asked her to save just a thousand dollars - and she could not. She's a hot little Puerto Rican woman that has some issues - but I love her and I love taking care of her - so I'll take the **** I get...

    Do not get married. Not until you're old. Even pre-nups are a waste of time. Just enjoy life until you can no longer do that by yourself. Or, if you find your dreamgirl - and nothing else matters - than go for it.

    If my wife wants a kid or two, I'll give them to her. I feel that even though I don't want them, it's not fair to take that opportunity away from her. If she wants to be a mother, I can't take that away from her. I just hope SHE WANTS a kid and it's not her whole stupid family bothering her with "so when are you going to have a child? You can't wait forever, you know"!
    Be careful, those lawyers and forensic accountants get all over everything. I agree somewhat with your thoughts on a pre-nup. The cost money to draft and to defend, but I view the pre-nup as a character test. If she wants you to sign the marriage contract, than there is no excuse for her to sign a pre-nup contract.

    Marrying much younger is always a wise choice, time is gentle on a man's physical appeal. People of previous generations had that right on point.

    I totally disagree about having a child. You aren't taking away anything. You're not giving her a person which you will also be responsible for. She will do all the work of raising them. In addition to financial support, she will expect you to do a lot of extra work around the house pertaining to taking care of the kids. Not to mention she could change. It seems like she relaxes her efforts with you when she gets what she wants. Her effort in the marriage could be severly reduced. I feel that too many guys just are indifferent to children, and then realize how much unwanted work & sacrifice comes from something they didn't want in the first place.

  11.  07-02-2008  05:18 PM
    Registered User thebigt's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Triple Cs View Post
    Be careful, those lawyers and forensic accountants get all over everything. I agree somewhat with your thoughts on a pre-nup. The cost money to draft and to defend, but I view the pre-nup as a character test. If she wants you to sign the marriage contract, than there is no excuse for her to sign a pre-nup contract.

    Marrying much younger is always a wise choice, time is gentle on a man's physical appeal. People of previous generations had that right on point.

    I totally disagree about having a child. You aren't taking away anything. You're not giving her a person which you will also be responsible for. She will do all the work of raising them. In addition to financial support, she will expect you to do a lot of extra work around the house pertaining to taking care of the kids. Not to mention she could change. It seems like she relaxes her efforts with you when she gets what she wants. Her effort in the marriage could be severly reduced. I feel that too many guys just are indifferent to children, and then realize how much unwanted work & sacrifice comes from something they didn't want in the first place.
    you are wrong on so many counts i don't know where to start. the dads i know are very dedicated to their kids. and single mom's can't wait to rush kids off to day care-even on days off and vacation. i have seen many guys who didn't really want kids do a 180 when they hold that kid in their arms.

  12.  07-02-2008  05:24 PM
    Registered User Triple Cs's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GuyverX View Post
    from what i have seen and heard, marriage is definitely not for me. ever.
    too much risk without reward for me. love and companionship paling in comparison to freedom and my money being spent on what and whom I choose when I choose.
    Mulletsoldier is right, people do this and I don't see why. The thing is, marriage gives the woman a huge incentive to change. Why should she keep herself in top condition and put the effort into the relationship once the relationship is a contractual obligation.

    Most women know the conditions and realities that favor them, and still many of them are unhappy. When you neglect the relationship, that will not make you happy. You will be the prison guard, always with an unhappy prisoner that only stays out of obligation and the financial consequences of leaving. Women will never abandon marriage like the 70s feminists wanted. Even without the monetary part, most never let go of the "princess day" fantasy. Even though weddings are held at locations where other "princesses" get married all the time.

    I think men want to marry to "lock-in" the best girl the have ever known, or at least dated. The truth is, you can't "lock-in". She has an incentive to change for the worse in marriage.

    One study compared the endorphins released in the first stages of love to the reaction that cocaine causes. I haven't done the drug, so I can't compare, but a lot of men drink the kool-aid an d propose. The others have "reached a certain age", want to have a traditional family or will do anything to keep their girlfriend.

    The older generation didn't really realize the power dynamics had changed due to the legal system, until it was too late. Young guys have plenty of examples and should know better

  13.  07-02-2008  05:30 PM
    Registered User Triple Cs's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    you are wrong on so many counts i don't know where to start. the dads i know are very dedicated to their kids. and single mom's can't wait to rush kids off to day care-even on days off and vacation. i have seen many guys who didn't really want kids do a 180 when they hold that kid in their arms.
    I didn't say the dads aren't dedicated and I'm sure some do change their minds because the child is their blood. You can be happy with the results. How many of those guys who are getting stretched thin with children want to have more? They would probably be happy with those kids and love them also, but it doesn't mean that they should want to have them.

    You want to be sure that you will be with the mother for life. You want to be sure that the mother will do a good job. You can love the kid and hate the circumstances. Also, by using a surrogate as I posted above, the child can never be taken away from the man.

  14.  07-02-2008  05:37 PM
    Registered User Beau's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=LegalGear;1371329]Yeah, tell that to the guy whose wife ****ed his best friend and yet he still owes alimony. I doubt that it provides much comfort knowing that men as a whole are better off according to the biased statistics./QUOTE]

    Well, only the first guy she had an affair with (a nice euphemism for committing adultery or sharing her ginch with him in the back of our car, hotel rooms, etc.) was my best friend. The second guy/affair/adulterous relationship with/ginch-probing partner), well he was just her boss. Oh, did I mention that they both worked at our church, and lead praise for about a year during the time they were screwing one another (until she resigned and the church allowed him to resign; both without sanction)? They were both Music Directors. Hell, the Minsiters admitted to suspecting something.

    So, no, I am not at all enamored with being given the right to pay her skanky-ness an ENORMOUS amount of money each month to subsidize her immorality. She broke our familiy apart. I pay for it.

    The rest of the stuff isn't so much of my concern, but the "pay spousal support when I maintained my marriage vows" - is like me eating a **** sandwich and then having to pay for it, and then leave a big tip. Each month.

    BTW - I try to honor women. I do hold doors, etc., and I'll always do so. I used to think that women were, in general, more honorable, virtuous and moral than men. My now wide butted ex-wife convinced me that I have been mistaken.

  15.  07-02-2008  08:03 PM
    Registered User GuyverX's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Triple Cs View Post
    Mulletsoldier is right, people do this and I don't see why. The thing is, marriage gives the woman a huge incentive to change. Why should she keep herself in top condition and put the effort into the relationship once the relationship is a contractual obligation.

    Most women know the conditions and realities that favor them, and still many of them are unhappy. When you neglect the relationship, that will not make you happy. You will be the prison guard, always with an unhappy prisoner that only stays out of obligation and the financial consequences of leaving. Women will never abandon marriage like the 70s feminists wanted. Even without the monetary part, most never let go of the "princess day" fantasy. Even though weddings are held at locations where other "princesses" get married all the time.

    I think men want to marry to "lock-in" the best girl the have ever known, or at least dated. The truth is, you can't "lock-in". She has an incentive to change for the worse in marriage.

    One study compared the endorphins released in the first stages of love to the reaction that cocaine causes. I haven't done the drug, so I can't compare, but a lot of men drink the kool-aid an d propose. The others have "reached a certain age", want to have a traditional family or will do anything to keep their girlfriend.

    The older generation didn't really realize the power dynamics had changed due to the legal system, until it was too late. Young guys have plenty of examples and should know better
    excellent points.
    I do find it rather amusing that women seem to think the 'right woman' can change a man's mind about marriage.
    I always saw that as a codependency issue.
    Where one's life choices mainly are reactionary.
    Mine usually fall on the side of whats practical and will give me a good escape route, should the need arise.

  16.  07-02-2008  08:08 PM
    Registered User GuyverX's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Beau;1423681]
    Originally Posted by LegalGear View Post
    Yeah, tell that to the guy whose wife ****ed his best friend and yet he still owes alimony. I doubt that it provides much comfort knowing that men as a whole are better off according to the biased statistics./QUOTE]

    Well, only the first guy she had an affair with (a nice euphemism for committing adultery or sharing her ginch with him in the back of our car, hotel rooms, etc.) was my best friend. The second guy/affair/adulterous relationship with/ginch-probing partner), well he was just her boss. Oh, did I mention that they both worked at our church, and lead praise for about a year during the time they were screwing one another (until she resigned and the church allowed him to resign; both without sanction)? They were both Music Directors. Hell, the Minsiters admitted to suspecting something.

    So, no, I am not at all enamored with being given the right to pay her skanky-ness an ENORMOUS amount of money each month to subsidize her immorality. She broke our familiy apart. I pay for it.

    The rest of the stuff isn't so much of my concern, but the "pay spousal support when I maintained my marriage vows" - is like me eating a **** sandwich and then having to pay for it, and then leave a big tip. Each month.

    BTW - I try to honor women. I do hold doors, etc., and I'll always do so. I used to think that women were, in general, more honorable, virtuous and moral than men. My now wide butted ex-wife convinced me that I have been mistaken.
    that is what scared me.
    that any children born within the marriage are the responsibility of the father even if not biologically his.
    nothing against kids but I refuse to dedicate my life and effort to children who arent mine.
    unless of course the woman already had children when we met and it was a package deal(theoretically speaking if I were marriage minded.)

  17.  07-02-2008  09:35 PM
    Registered User Triple Cs's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Beau;1423681]
    Originally Posted by LegalGear View Post
    Yeah, tell that to the guy whose wife ****ed his best friend and yet he still owes alimony. I doubt that it provides much comfort knowing that men as a whole are better off according to the biased statistics./QUOTE]

    Well, only the first guy she had an affair with (a nice euphemism for committing adultery or sharing her ginch with him in the back of our car, hotel rooms, etc.) was my best friend. The second guy/affair/adulterous relationship with/ginch-probing partner), well he was just her boss. Oh, did I mention that they both worked at our church, and lead praise for about a year during the time they were screwing one another (until she resigned and the church allowed him to resign; both without sanction)? They were both Music Directors. Hell, the Minsiters admitted to suspecting something.

    So, no, I am not at all enamored with being given the right to pay her skanky-ness an ENORMOUS amount of money each month to subsidize her immorality. She broke our familiy apart. I pay for it.

    The rest of the stuff isn't so much of my concern, but the "pay spousal support when I maintained my marriage vows" - is like me eating a **** sandwich and then having to pay for it, and then leave a big tip. Each month.

    BTW - I try to honor women. I do hold doors, etc., and I'll always do so. I used to think that women were, in general, more honorable, virtuous and moral than men. My now wide butted ex-wife convinced me that I have been mistaken.
    Exactly. If I wanted to change that part of the contract, even with a pre-nup, there is a big chance that it would get thrown out in court. I think two adults should be able to agree on their own contract and have it stand. Instead, you get a changing, outrageous deal.

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