- 06-11-2008, 04:07 PM
- 06-11-2008, 05:25 PM
- 06-11-2008, 06:12 PM
Interestingly enough, my sister moved in with my Dad, and my co-workers daughter moved in with him - yet BOTH males still had to pay child support for them to their mothers.
(On a side note - my mother was sleeping with her lawyer and told my Dad she'd drag everything out in court until he bled dry because she didn't have to pay a cent).
I also hate that child support is directly connected to how much you earn - not how much is "needed" for a kid. This price only goes up if you get a raise, but does not lower if you take a lower paying job.
However, I will say this - this is the court's problem, not necessarily females. My ex gf is a great example of that. She showed me that not all ex gf's go psycho after.
Women's privacy being more important than a guy's bugs me too. The women had their own individual shower stalls in rez while guys were more open. They're entirely open at the gym I go to, while girls get a divider. Why do ppl think I'm ok with showing off my package? And to top it off - why aren't they protecting ME from these old gay perverts who take hour long showers? Sadly - I somewhat know what girls feel like when oggled like that - it's not fun. (Also went to a gay bar once - wow - some guys are friggen aggresive.)
Ironically my workplace is most likely very different than other places. It's an IT company. I'd say about 95% of the actual "workers" are male. Yet I'd say that 60% of the bosses and leads are female. Why? Well - it's wrong to say so, but it's because most of those girls cannot do the job, but the company is afraid to fire them, so they get promoted into supervisor roles. It's extremely degrading when your supervisors control your job, yet cannot do your job.
As for breakups - yes, much harder on the males. Why? Well - the blame is on the males! Women have superior emotional and social support to lean on. Their female friends are there for them. And because they're like wolves smelling fresh *****, a lot of guys side with the girls too after a breakup.
Guys need to look in the mirror when it comes to this and learn from females. I *think* that was somewhat the idea of this forum - to allow males to feel safe to talk about issues that they would get ridiculed outside of the forum for.
06-11-2008, 06:31 PM
approaching 50, you begin to realize your mortality. so much attention/research/money has been dedicated to making breast cancer non-lethal. survival rate of women with breast cancer has improved dramatically in the last decade. whereas it would appear much less resources have been dedicated to prostate cancer. i would be willing to bet that there has been a dramatic increase in men with prostate cancer in last decade, with a high mortality rate. when was the last time you saw a march to wipe out prostate cancer? rarely does it even get mentioned. it would appear that equality is in the eye of the beholder.
06-14-2008, 12:03 AM
However, you would be surprised at the women's equity movements currently being carried out in a 'grass roots' fashion in the Middle East. Particularly in respects to art and culture.
Also, Western 'Society' spawned the suffrage and gender equality movements more as a general consequence of our attitudes towards individual freedoms and liberties, rather than as some engendered response. Such a movement occurred here because it was both possible and socially relevant.
I wouldn't necessarily say culturally we are head and shoulders above the rest, as that implies cultures are quantitatively measured somehow. Technologically, legally, all of that good stuff, most definitely. In terms of qualitative culture (art, music, community) we have very much lost our way. Western Culture is actually somewhat of an oxymoron.As far as the sexual abuse of women, again I don't think we can look to other parts of the globe. Perhaps you take the position that all cultures are equal, and then your position makes some sense. But the idea that all cultures are equal is debatable, and I happen to believe that Western Civilization as a whole is head and shoulders above the rest of the worlds cultures.
Anyway, with that being said, those statistics were not meant to be comparative, but rather generally indicative of the status of the woman in general, not merely the North American woman. As I said earlier, I do not believe you can, or should, separate rights based solely on Geography. As I saw it, this thread was about Women's Rights, not North American Women's Rights.
I would disagree. Much of the hyper-sexualized attitudes surrounding females are 'encultured' and taught as part of being male, rather than individual personality disorders. In certain respects, via media, education, peers, and so on, young men become entangled with the notion that conceptualizing females in this kind of degradative fashion is 'okay'. I feel that, as a culture-wide aspect, and not merely compounded individual behavior, is a far greater root cause.That being said we have to look at the root causes of the sexual abuse of women in the West. Offhand I would suggest that they are: criminal rape, incest, and general lewd behavior (if I leave any out forgive me, I am posting en haste). I would suggest that rape, incest, and lewd behavior are the result of behavioral disorders, most of which are the result of the perpetrator being a victim of sexual abuse at some time in his life. So if the perpetrators of sexual abuse against women are men who were sexually abused as children, it would appear that the root cause lies in the victimization of male children.
A great case-in-point would be the extremely high non-response percentage in man-to-woman domestic abuse cases in the Southern United States (this was a famous case study). These actions were not the result of male-to-male sexual misconduct, but as consequences of a culture of misogyny, hegemonic masculinity, and abuse. When such behavior becomes prevalent, individual psychoses cannot be turned to as a viable explanation - the answer must be cultural, and not individual.
While that experience was relegated to a few States, the non-response statistics from former victims speak to the ubiquitousness of that particular phenomenon across the country. Obviously, the situation is much worse from a global perspective, which I feel we must take into account. Remember: women are women across the globe, not merely in North America.
No disagreement there!As far as the judicial system, women fair far better in divorce cases than men.
I thought our culture was head-and-shoulders above the rest? (just kidding).Concerning the media objectification of women, well lets just look at one of the biggest movies in the country right now: "Sex in the City". No man could possibly portray the modern woman any worse than she is portrayed in that show/movie. I am not saying that the objectification of women is a good thing, but I am making a point that our culture is just all around at a low point.
I agree that such movies are a response to very unfortunate demand, as well as capitalizing on a very lucrative opportunity. While the individual actors themselves should very well take responsibility for putting out such garbage, female corporate control of media at the highest levels is still negligible. If you want to take umbrage with the general direction of contemporary media decisions, women are not the appropriate avenue of complaint!
Well, it has much more to do (I am assuming you mean in a global perspective, as I did) with women being relegated to secondary economies in developing nations; assuming illegitimate (prostitution, human trade, drug trafficking) economic roles as a response to widespread patriarchy, tradition, and misogynistic attitudes towards women's role in the workplace.As far as women making up a high percentage of low wage earners I would suggest that this is the case because of teenage pregnancy and out of wedlock births. The best way in the world to ensure that you will be poor is to have a child without a father who will stick around and help raise the thing. Again this is has more to do with the decay of our culture way more than it has to do with men "running sh!t".
It is also due in large part to the lack of education, and women's traditional role in tribal-styled communities in the developing world. As global capital continues to expand, the traditional role of women in these countries (vanguards of the environment and home, community care, child-rearing) become low-value assets in a capitalistic economies. With little training and education - or opportunities to obtain it due to the reasons mentioned above - women are relegated to poverty.
I feel this is indicative of the general position of women from a global perspective - one of devalued contributions, and the assumptions that only masculine (i.e., profitable) contributions are high-value. A similar attitude, to a lesser degree, is still prevalent in the West. If it was not, the women who still perform almost double the housework of their mates, even in comparable payed work situations, would be payed for their domestic labor!
06-14-2008, 05:36 AM
regarding research on prostate cancer and other issues dealing with male health, why isn't there a push for more funding for such conditions from the male side?
06-14-2008, 05:48 AM
"I would disagree. Much of the hyper-sexualized attitudes surrounding females are 'encultured' and taught as part of being male, rather than individual personality disorders. In certain respects, via media, education, peers, and so on, young men become entangled with the notion that conceptualizing females in this kind of degradative fashion is 'okay'. I feel that, as a culture-wide aspect, and not merely compounded individual behavior, is a far greater root cause"
I disagree. This is more of an individual behaviour and to blame it on culture and say its culture's fault is a stretch. Sure the culture can at times teach you that- just like it can teach you to view other races from a negative stance- but whether you choose to endorse and conceptualize that way is in the end entirely up to you. You can hyper-sexualize females or you can look at them in a different manner.
06-14-2008, 06:18 AM
Ladies, ladies, ladies! Please...can't we just agree that we're all equal but some are more equal than others?
Women have more power because we allow them to, if push came to shove you could take measures to ensure that an ex or some pushy women wouldn't screw you around e.g. stop communication, take yourself out of the picture, focus on something you can get to work.
If we're talking about what women and men deserve in terms of power over money, responsibility or wages then I'd say that in my experience in a working class environment that men work harder to meet or exceed a goal whereas women seem more content if they can just get the job done by their deadline whilst chit-chatting to people.
06-14-2008, 09:44 AM
For example, did you teach yourself how to speak? Or moreover, what your voice would sound like, or how well you would interpret language as a child? Language in itself is very much the same type of behavior as sexuality - partly biological, partly social. While the transmission of sexuality from generation-to-generation is not as direct as say language, it carries all the ubiquitousness and importance.
This isn't to say that 'blips' in the sexual status-quo don't occur, as we all know they do; simply trying to point out that much of what we assume are individual decisions are actually complex interplays between psychological, social, and evolutionary-biological forces!
06-14-2008, 10:30 AM
06-14-2008, 10:36 AM
06-14-2008, 01:38 PM
06-14-2008, 02:24 PM
[QUOTE=Dadof2;1388452]I would argue that even if Western/Judeo-Christian society is patriarchal it is also the society that spawned the woman's rights movement. I don't think that we will see a woman's right movement getting any traction in the Middle East (outside of Israel) anytime soon. Conversely I predict that post-Christian Europe will see a uptick in the oppression of women as it becomes further inundated with Muslim migrants.
this reminds me me of what i consider one of the biggest political blunders in modern history. bill clinton nominating madeline albright as secretary of state, and sending her to negotiate peace in the middle east. that had to be a huge slap in to face to muslim leaders, and as a result moderate leaders, who might have been open to peace overtures instead became more anti-american than ever before. i guess clinton forgot the old maxim 'when in rome, do as the romans'. i am sure there were a number of state department middle eastern specialists who advised against this, but i am sure ole bill put his political aspirations above the good of the country.
06-14-2008, 04:49 PM
06-14-2008, 04:50 PM
06-14-2008, 06:19 PM
I am refraining from doing a point by post response as we obviously view the world through different lenses, and when looking at the world through your lense I agree with much of what you say. If we were to discuss the problems women face globally then we would be on the same side of this discussion.
I first look to conditions within the United States, and look no further than Western Civilization. As you pointed out culturally in terms of our art and entertainment we are in terrible shape, but I still look at Western Civilization as the best man has done up until this point in history. When I look at the problems facing my country, and Europe I see the problem as a drifting away from the things that made the West great.
Women are doing good in our culture. In America there are more women graduating from high school and college. Women are making more money, and in some cases making more money for doing the same work. The old tired argument about women making less for doing the same work is generally a numbers game that doesn't take into account the amount of overtime worked, and part time vs full time employment.
All that said I think the OP's heart is in the right place, and I do agree with his idea. Everything today seems to be accomplished by special interest groups and activist. The average guy really has no special interest group to speak of.
Sure we can look at how women are portrayed in the media, but have you noticed lately how men are portrayed? I didn't notice it for the longest time, because I am not overly sensitive and looking for something to be pissed about. Almost every advertisement on tv shows the man in an unflattering light, whether it be as a buffoon, someone in hysterics, or at the very least a guy who is not as smart as his wife.
Maybe we need something to balance out feminism, perhaps a "masculinism" movement is necessary.
06-14-2008, 06:52 PM
I agree a reclamation, if there can be such a thing, of the masculine form is necessary; a redefinition of masculinity as reciprocal, powerful, providing, but not oppressive. A 'give', without 'taking away'.
06-14-2008, 07:44 PM
i have worked in a factory most of my life. i can remember about 30 years ago when women started leaving the home for careers. they thought it was such a good thing, if you were to poll the females that work at my place of business 100% whould vote for being able to stay home and take care of house/kids. equal rights was a scam created by big business to keep salaries down, the day of a one wage earner per family is dead. if women would not have bought into this scam men would be making a minimum of $30 an hour and women would be staying home. if women had half a brain gloria steinam would be hanged in effigy.
06-14-2008, 08:38 PM
06-14-2008, 11:01 PM
06-14-2008, 11:07 PM
06-15-2008, 08:47 AM
06-16-2008, 03:54 AM
06-16-2008, 11:29 AM
06-17-2008, 03:02 PM
06-17-2008, 11:57 PM
06-18-2008, 12:43 PM
I'm not even gonna bother getting involved in this discussion because I'm involved with a woman's rights group, in the Violence Intervention Program, on probation, go to anger management, etc. Long, long story, but I discuss with this professionals every week, twice per week.
06-26-2008, 10:23 PM
Divorce stories like that really scare me. Furthermore, I once had a temp job working for the department of child support collections. This place was the definition of misandry. I'll never forget the happiness is one woman's voice as she described the law that makes the husband the legal father of any child born into the marriage. Paternity fraud is legal and studies show it happens 10-20% of the time (Biologically, when a female is cuckolded, she is more likely to get pregnant by the other man).
The male desire for sex is seen in our society as wrong. Women often get to manipulate men by rewarding and witholding sex.
Men should have the right to "paper abortions". A man can have a woman sign an agreement that says that she is on birth control and would get an abortion in the case of an accident. Even, if she pinholes his condom, breaks the agreement and has a baby; the guy has no case in court.
Women should have the same rights as men, but they should not be entitled to profit off relationships. Feminists were right to decry marriage. The man begs for the woman, he gives the ring, he takes part in an expensive party that is all about her. He then enters a contract where he has a 50% chance of losing half or more of his assets. Add to that the fact that most women prefer a man who makes more than they do. Pre-nups are finally becoming more acceptable, but they cost money to draft and have many limits on the conditions to be placed. In divorce, guys are often forced to pay their wife's legal fees, give up the house, pay alimony and often excessive child support. 2/3s of divorces are initiated by women. Most of for the reason of "general discontent".
In the area of relationships, guys have a huge legal disadvantage. Even if he enters into an agreement with a woman, the government can change the rules at any time to his detriment.
06-28-2008, 07:14 PM
Yes, and this is a valid issue. No one is taking away from the fact that women have struggles, however is it right to be extreme by saying that men have "all of the advantages" which is the bull**** I was appalled with in my first post. There are many advantages to being a female in the US and there are liabilities. However, many womens groups will continuously highlight the disadvantages to a fault.
Was your Significant Other sent to sensitivity training? Why are all of the books written on verbal abuse written by women and have an anti-male bend to them? No offense some of the moms I grew up with were WAY more abusive than the dads were to their children and verbal abuse is WAY more damaging to a child than physical abuse IMHO.
I felt good, I came across a prostate cancer "awareness" and donation program at my local grocery store. According to some people though, it is wrong to even start such a fund since men have all of the advantages...
Do you remember registering for the selective service? Were you scared like I was? I registered around the time of the first Gulf War and I for one was kind of scared and felt like I was a sort of slave. First major war since Vietnam with the worlds 4th largest army (or whatever it was). Did I know as a 19 year old that we would win overwhelmingly? Nope... Did women have to go through that? Nope...
Yes, men have all of the advantages...right? We control society...that's why we don't get ALL of the advantages do we? Don't you think being forced to serve in the military and die for something that we don't believe in to be kind of a big disadvantage? Our national security wasn't being threatened. If someone invaded the US, then fine, but Iraq to free Kuwait?
06-29-2008, 03:26 PM
womens groups are now protesting unfair treatment of female veterans by the veterans administration. haha-why are they singling out females instead of protesting unfair treatment of all vets? the why is because all vets are getting the shaft by the va, women want preferential treatment. hell i bet a great number of homeless guys you see on the street are vietnam vets. women are very late getting to this party.
06-29-2008, 11:19 PM
07-01-2008, 12:26 PM
My cousin was married for about 3 years. He got married at 20. (he is now 28).
He tried to get the vasectomy when he got married but the docs turned him away.
He said he used protection up until the point his wife said that she would get the shot because they were married and she wanted it to be natural.
Now he was pretty dumb for giving in, but he did.
She got pregnant. He begged her to have an abortion but she refused.
She then divorced him.
She had triplets. He now works like 14 hours a day 6 or 7 days a week because the support takes 50% of his income.
Just to say to be on your p's and q's because after cnception he had no say.
07-01-2008, 12:49 PM
hmmm.. two income families... two people working... we'll just split the pay in half and there you go.
even if women didnt enter the workforce, they would have thought of something.
like a lot of 6 figure folks got severance packages at my company so they could promote other people and pay them a third yo a half of what the original people got paid.
say 120,000 down to 40-60 grand with more responsibilities
07-01-2008, 09:15 PM
07-01-2008, 09:30 PM
LegalGear. I almost gave up on this thread because you couldn't simply use the ignore feature. What a bunch of wasted reading. If you need help with the ignore feature, send me a PM and I'll help you out.
In any event, my wife retired two weeks after we got married. I noticed she wasn't going to work anymore - and I asked her about it. That was it. She says she's crazy. She can't work. Blah, blah, blah. Whatever. I can afford to support the both of us. And I can't physically force her to work. Can I?
Basically she spends everything I make. She can't save money. I have everything I need, so I deal with it. And we have a good relationship otherwise. But I'm sure if I took away her ability to spend my money, I'd be divorced. Being that I own several businesses, I'd surely be basically out of all of them by the end of divorce court.
ANYWAY. I thought it would be cool to marry a younger woman. She's about 8 years younger I am. Now she's thinking about having kids. So, I'll be financially responsible for these kids until the day I retire or longer. Wonderful.
I've been working my ass off to retire early for a long time now. I could have retired in my early 30s - but I got married instead. Now I'm going to have to be a big earner until the day I die... And if I don't follow the procedure, I'll lose everything.
It's fun to be a man.
Oh and that male feminist that you should be ignoring is probably just off a heavy cycle and without ANY testosterone flowing through his veins. Ask him anything about Sex And The City - he knows it all.
07-02-2008, 07:10 AM
Zero, thats too tough for words.
And people wonder why i am avoiding marriage like the plague.
Not prejudging all women, but if I do become financially successful instead of just financially stable, I might get taken for all i am worth.
Might sound chauvanist but the only adult woman I am supporting is going to be my mom in her old age.
p.s. Zero you might want to take a trip to get yourself snipped. that is if you dont want kids.
or make sure you keep your condoms in a safe place.
07-02-2008, 07:14 AM
but I seriously thought and still think they are going to reopen the draft.
dont mind serving my country... but I have friends who lived through iraq and told me about it.
I am not a coward but walking into a death trap... no way.
07-02-2008, 10:00 AM
I, if you read the thread on marriage, am stridently against it. There is no benefit in getting married vs. having a girlfriend, only a huge financial risk. The legal contract gave her the go ahead to not work. As far as marriage goes, Judeo-Christian theology requires that in order for a marriage to be valid the couple must have an "openness toward children".
Still, guys need to take responsibility. What about asking for a pre-nup (no community property, no alimony)? She always intended to quit work, you ask for a pre-nup and you at least have some protection and it gives a window to her motivations (Is she getting married for love or are there parts of the legal contract that she really wants). If she doesn't work now, do you think she's going to put in the extra work that having kids will take (even as a stay-at-home mom)?
As far as the guy being turned down for a vasectomy, he should have gone to another doctor. Planned Parenthood could refer you to a doctor that believes in the "my body, my choice" philosophy. However, most guys don't realize that the majority of women want babies as badly as we want sex. More women than you would think would be willing to go outside their marriage to get pregnant. There's nothing that you can do in that scenario except pay, its yours by law regardless of DNA. Even getting a vasectomy isn't enough protection if you are married, the law doesn't consider paternity fraud because it is still stuck in the age where an adulterous wife would receive brutal punishment. Besides, a vasectomy (if you haven't had a child already), violates the marriage requirement of "openness toward children"
I think guys know what the risks are, they just subscribe to the "it won't happen to me" line of thinking. I have heard of the term marriage strike, maybe there needs to be a baby strike until the law changes.
07-02-2008, 10:27 AM
If I wanted a child (which I don't), I would find an egg donor of the same race as myself and then hire a surrogate mother (either in America or a developing country like India). No custody battles, no confusion. This is the equivalent to all the single women that use sperm donors. Honestly, with the out of wedlock birthrate skyrocketing, why don't women just go to the sperm bank more often? The woman would spend less time trying to conceive and would have no need to lie about birth control or convince the guy to not use protection. The downside is the relinquishment of child support.
07-02-2008, 10:42 AM
Simply because I'm not following the crowd and jumping in on the, "women suck!" sentiment, does not mean I'm ignoring the very real issues LG brought up; merely trying to interject some balance into the discussion.
And because you made a horrible decision in whom you'd mate with, and are consequently butthurt about it, does not mean 'the woman' is keeping you down. Do men get unfairly and unrequitedly screwed in family (divorce) court, and paternity related manners? Yes, they sure do; I recognized that a few times. As I said though Zero, you have to; a) separate the ability to insist on decisions in certain legal situations from culture wide power; and b) stop looking at gender issues so ethnocentrically - because women's lot in life has improved very significantly in the West, does not mean we are that far from the mid 1800's in other parts of the world.
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