- 05-28-2008, 01:48 PM
Usually women just ignore the guy. The guy is obviously upset so he goes after her and just loses more self-respect and dignity in the process.
Then this is more ammo on why he is 'such a loser.'
Likewise, I've seen my own friends lose all their self-respect and dignity in the process of losing a relationship. It is sad to watch.
The worst, and I mean absolute WORST part about this is that they all had very good intentions about everything.
To their ex's they were psychos and losers.
- 05-28-2008, 02:53 PM
In any respect, you still have not come up with anything to objectively enforce any of your opinionated or rhetorical claims - period. I can say, "People say the sky is blue..the media tells you that BULL**** after the blue-skyists propagate it. It's BULL****", but it does not make it true: when I look outside, the sky is still, well, blue.
As well LG, your purpose is better served via being pro-male, as opposed to anti-female, which is how this thread came across. Gender bias, in a general sense, yet lies squarely in masculine hands - get over it. How you should have begun this thread, in my opinion, should have been less antagonistic, less short-sighted, and embracing the complexity of the issues (as opposed to reducing them as you have done). For example, divorce and alimony court is ridiculously unfair to males; the prostate research example you brought up is very fair and real; why is that women's privacy is, at times, more important than male privacy, and so on. These are real pro-male issues which can be presented and discussed without putting forward the ridiculous anti-female notions you have.
05-28-2008, 03:44 PM
I work in a female dominated profession.......HELP ME!!!!!
Giggity, Giggity, Giggity, Alright!
Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
05-28-2008, 04:25 PM
My notions are not at all anti-female and it is pointless to discuss anything with you because you don't get it and hurl insults, make false statements and accusations. I am pro-people, just that the media seems to bend to an anti-male for the past 10 years in my eyes and to many males... Although, I strongly disapprove of your name calling and insinuations (woman hater etc...) if you would like, I will send you a copy of that book, so you can have a good read. Just PM me your details. Unfortunately, your posts are pompous self congratulatory and lack any real substance, you change the argument and then ignore my deeper look into the statistics. Your whole argument is based on a sheerly financial view of power in society when I am expanding to try and get you out of this very narrow view point. Money is one aspect of life and although the inequities associated with it are there, they are not telling considering the other aspects of life that are advantageous to women.
You remind me of me when I was a bit more hot headed... What was written and what I "read" were two different things. Reread my original post and tell me what "anti-female" statements I made? Women's groups are the only individual comment I made, and that is implied to mean radical women's rights activists who think that men have all of the advantages, which is clearly not true. These groups still fill people's heads with this flawed belief. Then read your response and ask yourself if it was warranted...
Well, anyway...the situations you put on the table for us Reaper are my experiences as well... men who are really trying to work on a relationship get labeled as psycho's. Sadly, the experiences I had the woman draws the man in and then pushes him away once their ego has been satisfied. Not to say that men (myself included) didn't deserve some anger in return, just not to the extent I have observed.
05-28-2008, 04:27 PM
I don't see a single thing in my original post that would lead you to conclude that I hate women. To me (10 years) is a long time and I think the trend to villianize men has been going on for quite a lot longer (probably closer to 30 years). I was merely starting a dialog to show how men in our society currently are lead to believe that they have all the advantages. When pressed for a deeper look into statistics that you feel show women to be the lesser power, I then show you how men (all men) use that supposed power to punish each other, negating the supposed benefit, thus rendering the supposed positive a negative.
What I am trying to say is that there are advantages and disadvantages for both genders and it isn't right to constantly have pushed in our faces that men have ALL of the advantages. My original point is that men do not have ALL of the advantages...there are MANY advantages to being a woman yet those are largely ignored. Women have multiple journals, classes and associations trumpeting their hardships and experiences, yet men have almost none of these things available to them. This is the issue I wish to prevent. I am for 100% equal treatment of all people under the law.
In rereading the posts, I am stricken by the conclusions you jump to almost in every post that really have no basis in reality like " however, to say women are advantaged daily is ridiculous." Who said that? What I was saying is that women have MANY advantages that account for a lot. Yet as a society we ONLY seem to focus on the disadvantages to being a woman and those are heavily underscored by the radical groups that push their agenda and 100% biased views on the media.
I am done with this thread and I refuse to discuss anything further with you Mullet. If you want a copy of the book, I will send it to you. Best of luck in life.
05-28-2008, 06:38 PM
Referring back to LG's OP, he is referring to a book by Warren Farrell (also the author of "The Liberated Man" & "Why Men Are The Way They Are"); Farrell was a ranking official for the National Organization For Women for many years (3 times elected to their Board - the only man so approved), and spent years explaining to men why the women in their lives were so hurt, so angry, so 'difficult'.
Over time, he came to realise that the conversation was relentlessly one-sided: that the men he was talking to & working with about their gender issues felt helpless, powerless, unheard, their experiences with women ignored, unheard, dismissed. This led to his writing WMATWTA, in an effort to articulate for men and for women the unarticulated feelings of men about their experiences as men - and especially in relation to women - based on his years of working w/ couples on gender issues. The book has been praised by a wide range of professional men and women.
His subsequent book, "The Myth of Male Power", Farrell moves beyond questions of interpersonal relationships & into the area of social and cultural structures; his ideas and conclusions are challenging - sometimes startling - revolving around a central question: are the 'signs and symbols' of male power truly indicative of power, or of a deeper cultural assessment of the relative value of men and women - and of the responsibilities & accountabilities relegated to each sex?
The "Phil Donahue" model suggests that we simply roll over, accepting whatever women have to say about men at face value; the Farrell model suggests that women need to listen to men, too - and more: men need to listen to each other.
MulletSoldier, I have great respect for you, and believe I understand your defense of women in this thread - and I wouldn't stand for any gratuitous bashing of women myself. May I suggest that you read one of these books? I truly believe Farrell's work is as important as any other pursuit of gender justice.
Heck, I think everyone would benefit if people read Farrell as frequently as they read Greer, Steinem or Friday (in fact, Friday provided a laudatory blurb to TMoMP: given her occasionally hateful characterisations of men, that should say something).
05-28-2008, 09:19 PM
What is incredibly ironic about this thread, is the blatant misunderstanding of the word, 'Feminist'. Feminist Theory, whether purely academic, or especially methodological, means equity across cultural, socio-economic, geographic, and physical lines, not simply engendered ones.
As well, one needs to separate the unequal balance of power within specific arrangements, from indicators of general power value in the 'society at large'. Proportion and context are important traits here.
Calling hegemonic masculinity, or any opposition to that, 'BULL****' more or less characterizes you as I did.
05-28-2008, 09:30 PM
Dude, give it up already... The point as always was there are advantages and disadvantages to being each gender, but women (and men) are only taught the female point of view. Other than tacitly admitting custody (which ironically is becoming much more equitable) issues have just done a typical internet debate tactic and I am sorry, just not buying it. Keep calling names, change the discussion, refuse to respond to arguments, misconstrue statements...Is this Pat Arnold? How about you just drop it and let me have my "ignorant" views and your far more enlightened view point can celebrate how smart you are.
06-01-2008, 10:46 AM
06-01-2008, 11:41 AM
I'll live my life the way I want to. There are plenty of good women out there.
I hope one of them understands that it is my destiny to build an iron suit and fight crime.
Freedom means nothing here.
06-02-2008, 12:32 AM
06-02-2008, 12:55 AM
06-02-2008, 12:55 AM
06-03-2008, 09:50 AM
my only complaint is why women complain about us making more money than them. how else can we afford the expensive gifts they demand from us? anyone seen the price of gold lately? and diamonds-whew. i wear a suit until it don't fit, but my wife has to have a new outfit for every occasion, talk about inequalities. got to love em though, my wife has stuck with me though some very lean times. GOD bless them, a good woman can make you feel more manly than any testosterone boosting stack ever could.
WELL DONE IS BETTER THAN WELL SAID
06-08-2008, 06:38 PM
doesn't seem like much of a relationship to me if I have to continually bribe my "partner" to continue participating
06-08-2008, 07:47 PM
As far as the sexual abuse of women, again I don't think we can look to other parts of the globe. Perhaps you take the position that all cultures are equal, and then your position makes some sense. But the idea that all cultures are equal is debatable, and I happen to believe that Western Civilization as a whole is head and shoulders above the rest of the worlds cultures.
That being said we have to look at the root causes of the sexual abuse of women in the West. Offhand I would suggest that they are: criminal rape, incest, and general lewd behavior (if I leave any out forgive me, I am posting en haste). I would suggest that rape, incest, and lewd behavior are the result of behavioral disorders, most of which are the result of the perpetrator being a victim of sexual abuse at some time in his life. So if the perpetrators of sexual abuse against women are men who were sexually abused as children, it would appear that the root cause lies in the victimization of male children.
As far as the judicial system, women fair far better in divorce cases than men.
Concerning the media objectification of women, well lets just look at one of the biggest movies in the country right now: "Sex in the City". No man could possibly portray the modern woman any worse than she is portrayed in that show/movie. I am not saying that the objectification of women is a good thing, but I am making a point that our culture is just all around at a low point.
As far as women making up a high percentage of low wage earners I would suggest that this is the case because of teenage pregnancy and out of wedlock births. The best way in the world to ensure that you will be poor is to have a child without a father who will stick around and help raise the thing. Again this is has more to do with the decay of our culture way more than it has to do with men "running sh!t".
06-09-2008, 09:46 AM
06-09-2008, 02:53 PM
Speaking from experience, I was with my ex for 14 years before she divorced me. She chewed on me like a piece of gum. When my flavor was all gone she spit me out in the gutter. I was always true to her and gave her my best. One day she just decided she was done with me and wanted a divorce. Long story short, even though she has a great job making decent money, I'm the one who gets totally screwed on child support and spousal support. Don't get me wrong, I love my kids and I have no problem paying child support but the judge totally ruled in her favor. She takes half of my income plus she keeps her income. I don't understand it. With the money I have left, it's tough to make ends meet and even harder to have any kind of social life. But what can I do, just move on right?
Last edited by majorpain; 06-11-2008 at 10:57 AM. Reason: typo
06-10-2008, 07:07 PM
WELL DONE IS BETTER THAN WELL SAID
06-11-2008, 07:09 AM
06-11-2008, 05:07 PM
06-11-2008, 06:25 PM
06-11-2008, 07:12 PM
Interestingly enough, my sister moved in with my Dad, and my co-workers daughter moved in with him - yet BOTH males still had to pay child support for them to their mothers.
(On a side note - my mother was sleeping with her lawyer and told my Dad she'd drag everything out in court until he bled dry because she didn't have to pay a cent).
I also hate that child support is directly connected to how much you earn - not how much is "needed" for a kid. This price only goes up if you get a raise, but does not lower if you take a lower paying job.
However, I will say this - this is the court's problem, not necessarily females. My ex gf is a great example of that. She showed me that not all ex gf's go psycho after.
Women's privacy being more important than a guy's bugs me too. The women had their own individual shower stalls in rez while guys were more open. They're entirely open at the gym I go to, while girls get a divider. Why do ppl think I'm ok with showing off my package? And to top it off - why aren't they protecting ME from these old gay perverts who take hour long showers? Sadly - I somewhat know what girls feel like when oggled like that - it's not fun. (Also went to a gay bar once - wow - some guys are friggen aggresive.)
Ironically my workplace is most likely very different than other places. It's an IT company. I'd say about 95% of the actual "workers" are male. Yet I'd say that 60% of the bosses and leads are female. Why? Well - it's wrong to say so, but it's because most of those girls cannot do the job, but the company is afraid to fire them, so they get promoted into supervisor roles. It's extremely degrading when your supervisors control your job, yet cannot do your job.
As for breakups - yes, much harder on the males. Why? Well - the blame is on the males! Women have superior emotional and social support to lean on. Their female friends are there for them. And because they're like wolves smelling fresh *****, a lot of guys side with the girls too after a breakup.
Guys need to look in the mirror when it comes to this and learn from females. I *think* that was somewhat the idea of this forum - to allow males to feel safe to talk about issues that they would get ridiculed outside of the forum for.
06-11-2008, 07:31 PM
approaching 50, you begin to realize your mortality. so much attention/research/money has been dedicated to making breast cancer non-lethal. survival rate of women with breast cancer has improved dramatically in the last decade. whereas it would appear much less resources have been dedicated to prostate cancer. i would be willing to bet that there has been a dramatic increase in men with prostate cancer in last decade, with a high mortality rate. when was the last time you saw a march to wipe out prostate cancer? rarely does it even get mentioned. it would appear that equality is in the eye of the beholder.
WELL DONE IS BETTER THAN WELL SAID
06-14-2008, 01:03 AM
However, you would be surprised at the women's equity movements currently being carried out in a 'grass roots' fashion in the Middle East. Particularly in respects to art and culture.
Also, Western 'Society' spawned the suffrage and gender equality movements more as a general consequence of our attitudes towards individual freedoms and liberties, rather than as some engendered response. Such a movement occurred here because it was both possible and socially relevant.
I wouldn't necessarily say culturally we are head and shoulders above the rest, as that implies cultures are quantitatively measured somehow. Technologically, legally, all of that good stuff, most definitely. In terms of qualitative culture (art, music, community) we have very much lost our way. Western Culture is actually somewhat of an oxymoron.As far as the sexual abuse of women, again I don't think we can look to other parts of the globe. Perhaps you take the position that all cultures are equal, and then your position makes some sense. But the idea that all cultures are equal is debatable, and I happen to believe that Western Civilization as a whole is head and shoulders above the rest of the worlds cultures.
Anyway, with that being said, those statistics were not meant to be comparative, but rather generally indicative of the status of the woman in general, not merely the North American woman. As I said earlier, I do not believe you can, or should, separate rights based solely on Geography. As I saw it, this thread was about Women's Rights, not North American Women's Rights.
I would disagree. Much of the hyper-sexualized attitudes surrounding females are 'encultured' and taught as part of being male, rather than individual personality disorders. In certain respects, via media, education, peers, and so on, young men become entangled with the notion that conceptualizing females in this kind of degradative fashion is 'okay'. I feel that, as a culture-wide aspect, and not merely compounded individual behavior, is a far greater root cause.That being said we have to look at the root causes of the sexual abuse of women in the West. Offhand I would suggest that they are: criminal rape, incest, and general lewd behavior (if I leave any out forgive me, I am posting en haste). I would suggest that rape, incest, and lewd behavior are the result of behavioral disorders, most of which are the result of the perpetrator being a victim of sexual abuse at some time in his life. So if the perpetrators of sexual abuse against women are men who were sexually abused as children, it would appear that the root cause lies in the victimization of male children.
A great case-in-point would be the extremely high non-response percentage in man-to-woman domestic abuse cases in the Southern United States (this was a famous case study). These actions were not the result of male-to-male sexual misconduct, but as consequences of a culture of misogyny, hegemonic masculinity, and abuse. When such behavior becomes prevalent, individual psychoses cannot be turned to as a viable explanation - the answer must be cultural, and not individual.
While that experience was relegated to a few States, the non-response statistics from former victims speak to the ubiquitousness of that particular phenomenon across the country. Obviously, the situation is much worse from a global perspective, which I feel we must take into account. Remember: women are women across the globe, not merely in North America.
No disagreement there!As far as the judicial system, women fair far better in divorce cases than men.
I thought our culture was head-and-shoulders above the rest? (just kidding).Concerning the media objectification of women, well lets just look at one of the biggest movies in the country right now: "Sex in the City". No man could possibly portray the modern woman any worse than she is portrayed in that show/movie. I am not saying that the objectification of women is a good thing, but I am making a point that our culture is just all around at a low point.
I agree that such movies are a response to very unfortunate demand, as well as capitalizing on a very lucrative opportunity. While the individual actors themselves should very well take responsibility for putting out such garbage, female corporate control of media at the highest levels is still negligible. If you want to take umbrage with the general direction of contemporary media decisions, women are not the appropriate avenue of complaint!
Well, it has much more to do (I am assuming you mean in a global perspective, as I did) with women being relegated to secondary economies in developing nations; assuming illegitimate (prostitution, human trade, drug trafficking) economic roles as a response to widespread patriarchy, tradition, and misogynistic attitudes towards women's role in the workplace.As far as women making up a high percentage of low wage earners I would suggest that this is the case because of teenage pregnancy and out of wedlock births. The best way in the world to ensure that you will be poor is to have a child without a father who will stick around and help raise the thing. Again this is has more to do with the decay of our culture way more than it has to do with men "running sh!t".
It is also due in large part to the lack of education, and women's traditional role in tribal-styled communities in the developing world. As global capital continues to expand, the traditional role of women in these countries (vanguards of the environment and home, community care, child-rearing) become low-value assets in a capitalistic economies. With little training and education - or opportunities to obtain it due to the reasons mentioned above - women are relegated to poverty.
I feel this is indicative of the general position of women from a global perspective - one of devalued contributions, and the assumptions that only masculine (i.e., profitable) contributions are high-value. A similar attitude, to a lesser degree, is still prevalent in the West. If it was not, the women who still perform almost double the housework of their mates, even in comparable payed work situations, would be payed for their domestic labor!
06-14-2008, 06:36 AM
regarding research on prostate cancer and other issues dealing with male health, why isn't there a push for more funding for such conditions from the male side?
06-14-2008, 06:48 AM
"I would disagree. Much of the hyper-sexualized attitudes surrounding females are 'encultured' and taught as part of being male, rather than individual personality disorders. In certain respects, via media, education, peers, and so on, young men become entangled with the notion that conceptualizing females in this kind of degradative fashion is 'okay'. I feel that, as a culture-wide aspect, and not merely compounded individual behavior, is a far greater root cause"
I disagree. This is more of an individual behaviour and to blame it on culture and say its culture's fault is a stretch. Sure the culture can at times teach you that- just like it can teach you to view other races from a negative stance- but whether you choose to endorse and conceptualize that way is in the end entirely up to you. You can hyper-sexualize females or you can look at them in a different manner.
06-14-2008, 07:18 AM
Ladies, ladies, ladies! Please...can't we just agree that we're all equal but some are more equal than others?
Women have more power because we allow them to, if push came to shove you could take measures to ensure that an ex or some pushy women wouldn't screw you around e.g. stop communication, take yourself out of the picture, focus on something you can get to work.
If we're talking about what women and men deserve in terms of power over money, responsibility or wages then I'd say that in my experience in a working class environment that men work harder to meet or exceed a goal whereas women seem more content if they can just get the job done by their deadline whilst chit-chatting to people.
06-14-2008, 10:44 AM
For example, did you teach yourself how to speak? Or moreover, what your voice would sound like, or how well you would interpret language as a child? Language in itself is very much the same type of behavior as sexuality - partly biological, partly social. While the transmission of sexuality from generation-to-generation is not as direct as say language, it carries all the ubiquitousness and importance.
This isn't to say that 'blips' in the sexual status-quo don't occur, as we all know they do; simply trying to point out that much of what we assume are individual decisions are actually complex interplays between psychological, social, and evolutionary-biological forces!
06-14-2008, 11:30 AM
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