- 05-27-2008, 08:10 PM
The statistics I have brought up are not bias, in any sense. Most of the stats I brought up are most likely understated due to census error (non-response, inability to collect), or fear-induced non-response (especially in respects to sexual assault).
I am not 'crying foul', I just know you are wrong; while, on the other hand, your tantrum, which has gone from argument to blabber, does make it seem as if you are crying. I am not minimizing anything. If it seems as such, maybe you are reconciling your poorly constructed logic with reality?
- 05-27-2008, 10:22 PM
I have much respect for you contributions Mullet, but you didn't refute any of LG's points, just interjected your own to show that women in general are disadvantaged in certain ways. We are not here to refute your points; refuting your points isn't what this discussion is about. What's wrong with aknowledging that women can and do have advantages in certain areas and situations? One MUST acknowledge such advantages as are seen in custody cases and divorces/alimony arrangements as well as disadvantages women face in order to be fair. Heck, they get to be an instrument in the creation of new life, something men will never experience, but that's because we are different. Being "Different" from one another INHERENTLY means there will be advantages and disadvantages between men and women. Just because women have disadvantages doesn't mean they don't have any advantages.
I also think you are using a global perspective on these things whereas LG seems to be using a more North American perspective. North America is far more accomodating to women with regard to rights than much of the rest of the world. I think this is where the majority of this aparent disagreement comes from.
I, however would like to have a discussion along the lines proposed by LG instead of having others come in and say: "Wait! We can't have such sentiments or discuss such things because 'this' happened or 'that' has happened." We acknowledge such things, but we wish to MOVE ON, and speak to the original topic.
05-27-2008, 10:36 PM
My issue, as an intelligent middle class engineer, is that where I work female engineers are given an advantage in the company performance appraisals.
It's akin to me hitting off the men's tees while they hit off the kid's tees.
I'm all for female scientists and engineers - but if we expect solutions to the huge issues facing this world, we really shouldn't be applauding some detail rather ability to perform the task (in my case be a competent engineer).
Other than that - dunno.
I know females that have gotten roommates because they were afraid of whatever. I know some that won't walk or go places late at night on their own.
I went to Wal-mart the other night at 10pm. (Some girls I know wouldn't go to the one that I went to after dark.)
I get what Mullet is saying. Rape and physical abuse is a much bigger issue with women.
Not to say some of us males didn't grow up under a household of physical abuse ourselves.
05-27-2008, 11:05 PM
I work in an office where 2 out of 3 supervisors are female and the manager is female. In my previous job at a home improvement store females got the majority of the "sales specialist" positions where as the majority of the men had "stocking/physical" positions. Though I sold just as much if not more specialist products than my female co-workers, was certified and trained in more equipment, and had more time with the company, they got the sales specialist positions when they came up with the more accomadating scheduals that didn't run crazy hours until 12:00am sometimes. Guess they figured I would do the company more good by lifting heavy things than selling $5,000+ orders more than just in my spare time working there. Our trainer, our HR manager, and our department manager were all female; seemed it was just too much of a girls club to move upward. I moved on to much better things.
05-27-2008, 11:19 PM
His tone, or his following rhetoric, was not specific, but rather disputing gender inequity as a whole. Maybe he and you are arguing differing points?I think men have been getting the raw deal in our society for quite a long time and enough is enough.
To start, I would like everyone to look at a book called "The Myth Of Male Power" which details the BULL**** that women's groups push in the media about how women are treated unfairly.
I did, here:What's wrong with aknowledging that women can and do have advantages in certain areas and situations? One MUST acknowledge such advantages as are seen in custody cases and divorces/alimony arrangements as well as disadvantages women face in order to be fair. Heck, they get to be an instrument in the creation of new life, something men will never experience, but that's because we are different. Being "Different" from one another INHERENTLY means there will be advantages and disadvantages between men and women. Just because women have disadvantages doesn't mean they don't have any advantages.
As well as acknowledging the uselessness and unfair nature of affirmative action.Shared custody cases, that is about
The vast majority of my stats were from a North American perspective. As well, if your Nikes were made in a sweatshop which perpetuates such gender inequities, that is a North American phenomenon. Civil rights, and property or capital rights are different beings; in the latter respect, women are still not equal in North America.I also think you are using a global perspective on these things whereas LG seems to be using a more North American perspective. North America is far more accomodating to women with regard to rights than much of the rest of the world. I think this is where the majority of this aparent disagreement comes from.
Despite your wish to separate the two - it will not happen. Why? Because the sentiment, in general, is horribly misinformed. One needs to separate the ability to insist on rights in specific agreements (i.e., divorce court) from general inequity (the overwhelmingly negative experience of everyday life).I, however would like to have a discussion along the lines proposed by LG instead of having others come in and say: "Wait! We can't have such sentiments or discuss such things because 'this' happened or 'that' has happened." We acknowledge such things, but we wish to MOVE ON, and speak to the original topic.
05-28-2008, 12:21 AM
05-28-2008, 12:29 AM
OMG. Just as I sent this I saw a cool comercial on FX for the Prostate Cancer Association. Never seen anything like that before. Unncanny.
05-28-2008, 02:48 AM
Women are no more disadvantage then men. Rape stats are not an indication of Social Status, there crimes Stats.
Who gets rape and why has nothing to do with socials norms sense rape is not condoned as a social norm. If men get shot more, what does that makes us?
Also, social norms also allow for the majority of women to choose there mate.
Men in general date by default, you ask a few girls out and when one says yes, you finally get a chance at being in love, only after she says yes.
Dont kid yourself with this victim mentality that so many women have brainwashed there boys with. Stop being a shamed of being a Man, stop playing the codependant role for the womens movement.
Women should be respected and treat well but not made to be victims, which by the way makes them second class by default.
05-28-2008, 07:27 AM
The point of this topic was to spur on discussion. I think more than anything, my tone was meant to incite some passion and wake more people up to mens issues, which are every bit as important as the women's issues that get pounded down our throats. I couldn't imagine a more eloquent way to phrase it than saludable did. The bull**** is that MEN have all of the advantages and don't need to have their issues recognized or represented.
I believe that we do get a ton of mis-information rammed down our throats and yes, I did spend some time refuting some of your data which is the economic data from mainly north america, which is where we live.
On the topic of civil rights, property and capital rights, I would content that women are every bit on par with men and have some advantages that are uniquely theirs. Try looking at history from a different perspective and you may see something.
Men, are FORCED to provide for the family and women have a "choice" to provide. This simple fact alone can challenge the stats that you provide, since men traditionally have never had a choice whether they should work full time, work over time etc...
94% of the deaths on the job are men. Do women make less? Yep. Wouldn't you expect a workforce that has a 94% to 6% chance of dieing on the job to make more money?
On dates men pay for women about ten times more frequently than women pay for men.
Take the simple unconstitutional nature of selective service. Do you all remember being FORCED to register? 58,000 men died in Vietnam (many against their will) while their female counterparts sat at home. Where is the equality in that my friend? I believe that ALL PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE EQUAL TREATMENT UNDER THE LAW...not ALL MEN, ALL PEOPLE. Women being people should have to register and serve in a similar capacity.
Number of months sentenced Males vs Females for the same offense:
Female 117 Months
Male 159 Months
Female 49 Months
Male 83 Months
Females 46 Months
Males 66 Monts
Females 36 Months
Males 48 Months
Yes, men hold a larger portion of the judicial positions like you say, but overwhelmingly there is a need to "protect" women on the bench and treat them more gently then their male counterparts. Is this power?
Men's prisons? Hell holes... Women's prisons? Usually converted schools. Power here?
What my original point was intended to promote was to get people just like you to understand that ALL people have rights issues, not just women. Women's issues are all we hear about and all that the world seems to care about, but in fact men are too suffering and not the "advantaged" that you consistantly try to prove. Why because we make more money...that's just it isn' t it? All comes down to money.
During the Great Depression men were 650 times more likely to commit suicide than women. So, all along men didn't have a choice and took that forced responsibility very seriously.
Sure, men made more money because we have no choice...we are expected to make money, it is our only life mission and how we are judged.
My favorite commercial...the Trojan ad where all of the men in the bar are pigs until one of them gets a condom. Is it any wonder that society views
05-28-2008, 08:40 AM
I don't know if I specifically would agree with women exceeding men in an advantageous way (all aspects), but relationship-wise, female infidelity seems to be climbing. I don't have any data to support this, only my own perspective.
Unfortunately, it is 'ok' since men are animals by default apparently.
Break ups are much, much harder for men. In my own experience and in other's I've seen.
The problem is only mitigated when the women cheats on him. Then suicide is introduced.
05-28-2008, 09:01 AM
Now we get to the crux of the issue:
Mullet, I don't blame you since you are taught to just look at a statistic and "nuff said" right? is it Nuff said?
"Hmm...the judicial system? No, try again..."
Yes, the judicial system. Great one. So, by your beliefs and statistics, the greater number of men as judges would then give men the advantage. You cite this as the belief that more male judges give more males power...in the form of preferential treatment under the law.
Isn't that so? Having more men as judges would give men the advantage right? So, in fact a man that goes before a judge has a much greater chance of being in front of a male judge and this then equates into preferential treatment? Right? "try again" Right, isn't that what you said "try again"?
So, if there are more men on the bench and men have more power and thus preferential treatment, then why are men sentenced more harshly?
Female 117 Months
Male 159 Months
Female 49 Months
Male 83 Months
Females 46 Months
Males 66 Monts
Females 36 Months
Males 48 Months
This is the myth my friends and why it is USELESS to spout off a bunch of statistics without looking further into them. Isn't the point of POWER to give oneself preferential treatment? Shouldn't more male judges translate into men have the advantage in court and the lesser prison sentences? This is the BULL**** I am talking about. The fleecing of our ability to have compassion for ourselves as men.
The point is that men do indeed have more control but that control is largely (in my arguement) used to benefit WOMEN and further eroding of men and the portrayal of men as "animals" and "power mongers" that benefit men only is wrong and destructive to ALL people...men and women.
05-28-2008, 09:13 AM
Really, so for the above points you really think that a male judge should give another male a lesser sentance due to the fact that he is male. Never mind the fact that the crime was a decision that he chose to carry out with no morals or regard for the law.
05-28-2008, 09:21 AM
05-28-2008, 09:22 AM
05-28-2008, 09:22 AM
Crader, I am really confused on why you would draw that conclusion due to my points? I detailed how men are penalized more heavily. You then associate that with me thinking that men should serve a lesser penalty?
Wouldn't the logical thing to conclude be that men obviously have no judicial power (except for the judges themselves) and lumping "men" into one group is ignorant. You somehow didn't conclude that, so I must not be communicating properly.
"men have judicial power and use it to benefit men"
Yet, the data shows that
"men have the judicial power and use it to benefit women"
Shouldn't all people have roughly the same sentencing for the same crime?
05-28-2008, 09:25 AM
I just demonstrated how a statistic that is improperly used to suggest males have more judicial power is in fact really just the opposite, men are treated more harshly by "society".
05-28-2008, 09:27 AM
05-28-2008, 09:29 AM
As far as the relationship issue goes I honestly believe that the hurt is just as bad for both people. I've been hurt to the point of wanting to end it all as well. The thing is its hard to see it from the other sexes views if its happening to you. I know guys who have been hurt and women equally. Emotional pain is not a gender thing.
05-28-2008, 09:32 AM
05-28-2008, 09:36 AM
Meaning the male has 5 good friends and the female has 5 good friends.
After my break up awhile back, all my friends did the whole 'let's go out and meet new girls, etc, etc'.
I was already fully aware that this wasnt going to make things better and they were doing the best that they could, however it just wasn't enough.
05-28-2008, 09:39 AM
One of the TV shows that I'm not sure if it is one, but I really hate, well 2 of them.
1. The Real OC (Orange County) Housewives
2. Sex and the City.
I really, really, really, really hate Sex and the City. All that show portrays is the world is a woman's oyster for sex and men's money. Concidently my ex used to love that show and she was like that. Go figure.
I should have seen that one coming.
05-28-2008, 09:41 AM
We can be pricks no doubt, i've seen my friends do some dumbs things that hurt their gf's etc but on a whole once the relationship has ended it seems to be the girls that will go out of their way to be spiteful or hurtful to the guy rather then just "getting over it". Ohwell.
05-28-2008, 09:45 AM
05-28-2008, 09:48 AM
Yeah, I don't like either. I don't like or support the idea that people are just a means to an end or for fun. It demeans people as human beings.
05-28-2008, 10:43 AM
I find that show disgusting too, yet even more disgusting is "Mad About You" where Paul Riser is treated like a complete idiot and always apologizing.
The issue I had with your statements Mullet is not that they are not good fodder for discussion, but that men need a place to discuss their issues without the propaganda being thrown in their faces in such a vicious way. Taking stats like you do without looking at the full ramifications are EXACTLY what the feminists do. The statistic "Men have more judicial power" Look deeper and you will see it isn't at all the case. Men are on the receiving end of hard criminal penalties that women do not have to endure.
Men in my eyes are like the traditional "battered wife syndrome"...so quick to assume the blame and that they are "bad" when in reality men are not "bad" most men don't rape or abuse women and in reality I would say that minus the physical differences, more women hit men than men hit women. I personally have been struck by a woman and it went unreported since the damage wasn't severe (obviously).
The book details that women even admit that they are more likely to strike a man then be struck. I understand the damage differences but the reality is that physical violence is pretty common for both sexes.
Also, an interesting poll showed that 94% of men feel that they have been pressured into sex. The reasons for not wanting sex are clearly different (men usually don't want the commitment aspects) and 97% of women have been pressured for sex. Only a 3% difference. Still, this can be further broken down...I have been with quite a lot of women and most of them ASK me to spank them. Also, many of my female friends in college told me of dumping guys because they are not "men"...one girl went so far as to dump a guy because he asked her if he can kiss her. She said "I don't want to be asked to be kissed, I want him to have the balls to do it.
The book details that at one point the most popular female purchased book was a tale where a man raped a woman and then she went to the prison and fell in love with him... Weird best seller isn't it? Over half of the TV mini-series depict women as the victims of violent struggles... (You know the classic Woman's Husband Abuses Her and She Lights Him On Fire...stories). Men in these stories are depicted as 100% at fault and near animals...the women depicted as completely innocent victims.
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