- 05-28-2008, 12:21 AM
- 05-28-2008, 12:29 AM
OMG. Just as I sent this I saw a cool comercial on FX for the Prostate Cancer Association. Never seen anything like that before. Unncanny.
05-28-2008, 02:48 AM
Women are no more disadvantage then men. Rape stats are not an indication of Social Status, there crimes Stats.
Who gets rape and why has nothing to do with socials norms sense rape is not condoned as a social norm. If men get shot more, what does that makes us?
Also, social norms also allow for the majority of women to choose there mate.
Men in general date by default, you ask a few girls out and when one says yes, you finally get a chance at being in love, only after she says yes.
Dont kid yourself with this victim mentality that so many women have brainwashed there boys with. Stop being a shamed of being a Man, stop playing the codependant role for the womens movement.
Women should be respected and treat well but not made to be victims, which by the way makes them second class by default.
05-28-2008, 07:27 AM
The point of this topic was to spur on discussion. I think more than anything, my tone was meant to incite some passion and wake more people up to mens issues, which are every bit as important as the women's issues that get pounded down our throats. I couldn't imagine a more eloquent way to phrase it than saludable did. The bull**** is that MEN have all of the advantages and don't need to have their issues recognized or represented.
I believe that we do get a ton of mis-information rammed down our throats and yes, I did spend some time refuting some of your data which is the economic data from mainly north america, which is where we live.
On the topic of civil rights, property and capital rights, I would content that women are every bit on par with men and have some advantages that are uniquely theirs. Try looking at history from a different perspective and you may see something.
Men, are FORCED to provide for the family and women have a "choice" to provide. This simple fact alone can challenge the stats that you provide, since men traditionally have never had a choice whether they should work full time, work over time etc...
94% of the deaths on the job are men. Do women make less? Yep. Wouldn't you expect a workforce that has a 94% to 6% chance of dieing on the job to make more money?
On dates men pay for women about ten times more frequently than women pay for men.
Take the simple unconstitutional nature of selective service. Do you all remember being FORCED to register? 58,000 men died in Vietnam (many against their will) while their female counterparts sat at home. Where is the equality in that my friend? I believe that ALL PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE EQUAL TREATMENT UNDER THE LAW...not ALL MEN, ALL PEOPLE. Women being people should have to register and serve in a similar capacity.
Number of months sentenced Males vs Females for the same offense:
Female 117 Months
Male 159 Months
Female 49 Months
Male 83 Months
Females 46 Months
Males 66 Monts
Females 36 Months
Males 48 Months
Yes, men hold a larger portion of the judicial positions like you say, but overwhelmingly there is a need to "protect" women on the bench and treat them more gently then their male counterparts. Is this power?
Men's prisons? Hell holes... Women's prisons? Usually converted schools. Power here?
What my original point was intended to promote was to get people just like you to understand that ALL people have rights issues, not just women. Women's issues are all we hear about and all that the world seems to care about, but in fact men are too suffering and not the "advantaged" that you consistantly try to prove. Why because we make more money...that's just it isn' t it? All comes down to money.
During the Great Depression men were 650 times more likely to commit suicide than women. So, all along men didn't have a choice and took that forced responsibility very seriously.
Sure, men made more money because we have no choice...we are expected to make money, it is our only life mission and how we are judged.
My favorite commercial...the Trojan ad where all of the men in the bar are pigs until one of them gets a condom. Is it any wonder that society views
05-28-2008, 08:40 AM
I don't know if I specifically would agree with women exceeding men in an advantageous way (all aspects), but relationship-wise, female infidelity seems to be climbing. I don't have any data to support this, only my own perspective.
Unfortunately, it is 'ok' since men are animals by default apparently.
Break ups are much, much harder for men. In my own experience and in other's I've seen.
The problem is only mitigated when the women cheats on him. Then suicide is introduced.
05-28-2008, 09:01 AM
Now we get to the crux of the issue:
Mullet, I don't blame you since you are taught to just look at a statistic and "nuff said" right? is it Nuff said?
"Hmm...the judicial system? No, try again..."
Yes, the judicial system. Great one. So, by your beliefs and statistics, the greater number of men as judges would then give men the advantage. You cite this as the belief that more male judges give more males power...in the form of preferential treatment under the law.
Isn't that so? Having more men as judges would give men the advantage right? So, in fact a man that goes before a judge has a much greater chance of being in front of a male judge and this then equates into preferential treatment? Right? "try again" Right, isn't that what you said "try again"?
So, if there are more men on the bench and men have more power and thus preferential treatment, then why are men sentenced more harshly?
Female 117 Months
Male 159 Months
Female 49 Months
Male 83 Months
Females 46 Months
Males 66 Monts
Females 36 Months
Males 48 Months
This is the myth my friends and why it is USELESS to spout off a bunch of statistics without looking further into them. Isn't the point of POWER to give oneself preferential treatment? Shouldn't more male judges translate into men have the advantage in court and the lesser prison sentences? This is the BULL**** I am talking about. The fleecing of our ability to have compassion for ourselves as men.
The point is that men do indeed have more control but that control is largely (in my arguement) used to benefit WOMEN and further eroding of men and the portrayal of men as "animals" and "power mongers" that benefit men only is wrong and destructive to ALL people...men and women.
05-28-2008, 09:13 AM
Really, so for the above points you really think that a male judge should give another male a lesser sentance due to the fact that he is male. Never mind the fact that the crime was a decision that he chose to carry out with no morals or regard for the law.
05-28-2008, 09:21 AM
05-28-2008, 09:22 AM
05-28-2008, 09:22 AM
Crader, I am really confused on why you would draw that conclusion due to my points? I detailed how men are penalized more heavily. You then associate that with me thinking that men should serve a lesser penalty?
Wouldn't the logical thing to conclude be that men obviously have no judicial power (except for the judges themselves) and lumping "men" into one group is ignorant. You somehow didn't conclude that, so I must not be communicating properly.
"men have judicial power and use it to benefit men"
Yet, the data shows that
"men have the judicial power and use it to benefit women"
Shouldn't all people have roughly the same sentencing for the same crime?
05-28-2008, 09:25 AM
I just demonstrated how a statistic that is improperly used to suggest males have more judicial power is in fact really just the opposite, men are treated more harshly by "society".
05-28-2008, 09:27 AM
05-28-2008, 09:29 AM
As far as the relationship issue goes I honestly believe that the hurt is just as bad for both people. I've been hurt to the point of wanting to end it all as well. The thing is its hard to see it from the other sexes views if its happening to you. I know guys who have been hurt and women equally. Emotional pain is not a gender thing.
05-28-2008, 09:32 AM
05-28-2008, 09:36 AM
Meaning the male has 5 good friends and the female has 5 good friends.
After my break up awhile back, all my friends did the whole 'let's go out and meet new girls, etc, etc'.
I was already fully aware that this wasnt going to make things better and they were doing the best that they could, however it just wasn't enough.
05-28-2008, 09:39 AM
One of the TV shows that I'm not sure if it is one, but I really hate, well 2 of them.
1. The Real OC (Orange County) Housewives
2. Sex and the City.
I really, really, really, really hate Sex and the City. All that show portrays is the world is a woman's oyster for sex and men's money. Concidently my ex used to love that show and she was like that. Go figure.
I should have seen that one coming.
05-28-2008, 09:41 AM
We can be pricks no doubt, i've seen my friends do some dumbs things that hurt their gf's etc but on a whole once the relationship has ended it seems to be the girls that will go out of their way to be spiteful or hurtful to the guy rather then just "getting over it". Ohwell.
05-28-2008, 09:45 AM
05-28-2008, 09:48 AM
Yeah, I don't like either. I don't like or support the idea that people are just a means to an end or for fun. It demeans people as human beings.
05-28-2008, 10:43 AM
I find that show disgusting too, yet even more disgusting is "Mad About You" where Paul Riser is treated like a complete idiot and always apologizing.
The issue I had with your statements Mullet is not that they are not good fodder for discussion, but that men need a place to discuss their issues without the propaganda being thrown in their faces in such a vicious way. Taking stats like you do without looking at the full ramifications are EXACTLY what the feminists do. The statistic "Men have more judicial power" Look deeper and you will see it isn't at all the case. Men are on the receiving end of hard criminal penalties that women do not have to endure.
Men in my eyes are like the traditional "battered wife syndrome"...so quick to assume the blame and that they are "bad" when in reality men are not "bad" most men don't rape or abuse women and in reality I would say that minus the physical differences, more women hit men than men hit women. I personally have been struck by a woman and it went unreported since the damage wasn't severe (obviously).
The book details that women even admit that they are more likely to strike a man then be struck. I understand the damage differences but the reality is that physical violence is pretty common for both sexes.
Also, an interesting poll showed that 94% of men feel that they have been pressured into sex. The reasons for not wanting sex are clearly different (men usually don't want the commitment aspects) and 97% of women have been pressured for sex. Only a 3% difference. Still, this can be further broken down...I have been with quite a lot of women and most of them ASK me to spank them. Also, many of my female friends in college told me of dumping guys because they are not "men"...one girl went so far as to dump a guy because he asked her if he can kiss her. She said "I don't want to be asked to be kissed, I want him to have the balls to do it.
The book details that at one point the most popular female purchased book was a tale where a man raped a woman and then she went to the prison and fell in love with him... Weird best seller isn't it? Over half of the TV mini-series depict women as the victims of violent struggles... (You know the classic Woman's Husband Abuses Her and She Lights Him On Fire...stories). Men in these stories are depicted as 100% at fault and near animals...the women depicted as completely innocent victims.
05-28-2008, 10:48 AM
I find this trend in the minds of women to be repugnant. Promiscuity is a choice, and one that cannot be erased when you feel it is time to "settle down", nor is it "my past, therefore my business"....what it does is speak of character, which any prospective mate has the absolute right to know.
"Hey, given condition a, b, and c I turn into a non-discriminating bar slut"
Umm...ok, well it was nice meeting you and good luck with your life.
To be completely fair, I am not nor have I ever been remotely promiscuous, and it is NOT ok for men either, so the double-standard argument holds no water.
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05-28-2008, 11:01 AM
This is probably the thing that pissed me off the absolute most about my ex. Her (and her friends) lived the Sex and the City mentality. For them it was men were supposed to fall to their knees and cater to them.
At the time I wasn't at my current job and still in college so having to afford to buy her all these nice things was difficult and it was so expensive. To her though, she didn't really care about my own financial needs, but only her own fantasy which was propagated by these perverted TV shows like Sex and the City.
Well, lo and behold, it is impossible to please someone like this and she eventually bailed. On top of that I was:
- Cheap (well, not really I just didn't feel like buying all the time)
- A loser (because I didn't buy everything she wanted)
- Didn't love her enough (once again, didn't buy everything)
So not only at the time did I deal with my ex-gf jumping ship, but she conviently left me with a damaged ego and low self-esteem and sad. Thanks for nothing assho|e.
To her (and her friends), I (and probably other guys as well), were just a means to an end and all part of the 'Sex and the City' fantasy that many of those bastards play out in their head.
It isn't that I'm bitter and before I get called out and shlt for being 'jaded or bitter', its not even that. It is that there is always the other side of the story, and for one person's happy go lucky experience, it came at my own expense. The lack of empathy involved is always a nice touch as well.
Thank goodness, I don't put up with that bullshlt anymore, that was a lesson hard-learned.
05-28-2008, 11:11 AM
Organizational structures (employment structures) have been found to have a bias in reproducing dominant masculine norms, specifically in respects to 'male' conceived positions - these positions being 'dangerous', 'labour', or 'high power' occupations. In both respects, that puts men in more positions of power i.e., higher wage, as well at more dangerous positions i.e., a higher death rate. Bias does not mean women 'choose' (ridiculous notion on your part, btw) to be denied these positions, nor do men necessarily consciously deny them.
Onto your judicial statement. As you misunderstood me, I'll tackle both your misinterpreted response, as well as speaking about the original intent of the statement.
Your misinterpreted response:
Despite you ferociously digging, I am sure, to find a point that is valid enough to warrant discussion, this is not it. Sentences are levied in terms of severity of crimes, and none of your stats speak to the exact nature of any of the crimes committed. Further, one also needs to dig deeper, in light of your suggestion, and find that most of the male sentencing is racially disproportionate - that is, over 70% of incarcerated males are black, while only comprising about 55% of arrestees. Combine that with consistently longer sentencing times of Black males over either white or black females, and it appears you may have let out with, 'nuff said', upon regurgitating these statistics.
The initial intent:
The intent of that statement was not to suggest that men or women would receive preferential treatment during sentencing. The intent was to expose gender differentiation in occupational structures, even at the highest level. Employment bias has become legalized (good book, btw), and it permeates every occupation. If you do wish to speak about legalized bias, I am game for that. I spent a whole semester on that!
As towards your comment of female power somehow degrading masculinity, that is incorrect as well (for a man so hellbent on pointing out my short-comings of analysis, you may as well be a midget of debate). Hegemonic masculinity itself degrades the male form via locking men and boys into unfair systems of power, authority, and control, that are destructive to all.
05-28-2008, 11:17 AM
Believe LG, stringent feminists piss me off; as do stringent environmentalists; stringent vegans; or stringent masculinists; my point is a level and equitable playing field for all. While I respect your intent, it is poorly made because of its inherently one-sided nature. In your quest to restore male rights - which in itself is an oxymoronical quest - you are forgetting female rights. Further, if your quest was about 'everyone', why have you not at one point mentioned racially differentiated inequity within an intra-gender context? Are black males not as important was white ones?
05-28-2008, 11:18 AM
05-28-2008, 11:23 AM
Agreed. However, that is more evolutionary-biological rather than normative; females of any species are vested with the responsibility to ensure only the highest quality genes are accepted. Therefore, it is their responsibility to choose the mates which they feel pose the highest opportunity for survival and quality reproduction. If you and LG wish to cry foul in that respect, you best start with nature.Also, social norms also allow for the majority of women to choose there mate.
05-28-2008, 11:24 AM
We've all been through that before and I need to be honest here, I do believe that women are much worse and hurtful after a relationship. My fiance and I were just discussing it this morning and she admits that women are much more vengeful in general than men in her opinion.
I have been on the receiving end of this. The point of this forum is to honestly provide support for guys that are going through some of this ****. After a relationship, honestly getting laid was last on my list. I was hurt and reflective. Women often play the "I will call to see if he still wants me" game, only to find out you still want her and then she will act like you are annoying and a psycho. I see the games women play with their exes and it sickens me. I have been on the receiving end of these on more occasions than not.
I coached a woman on how to best handle her ex (who obviously still loved her) she refused to listen and the guy eventually snapped. I told her to tell him each time he calls "You are a good looking guy. Our relationship is over, but you don't need me and will find someone else." That is the proper way to break up with someone. She refused to do that, instead string him along and he went nuts... From the outside he is a nut and she has a sob story...right? Yet, I TOLD her how to avoid this and she chose not to...
05-28-2008, 11:29 AM
05-28-2008, 11:37 AM
LG, I am not trying to take the piss out of your lil' He-Man Woman Haters Club. If you want to 'spout off' with regurgitated statistics and improper analysis, be my guest.
05-28-2008, 11:39 AM
I can find plenty of stats and examples to support my perspective and I think overwhelmingly the bias is toward men being at fault in the media and society...not the other way around. What I am trying to do is provide some balance to what we get in the media and from the feminists.
The point to this most recent discussion is that occupational differences don't equate to "power", which is what you argue in 80% of your statements. Occupational differences and earning differences are a very simple part of a very complex discussion on who holds real power in society.
It is very easy to say that men make more so they hold more power, yet I have given one example of how it is not that simple and have provided other examples of the inequality (unless you consider 57,000 men in Vietnam trivial).
Quite honestly, you are the only person in this discussion being insulting with your insinuating "ferociously digging" comments. You know what I did last night? I went running, hit the treadmill and watched Family Guy. I wasn't ferociously digging into anything.
Discussions with you are pointless, not because you don't have good points, but because of your condescending tone and argumentative attitude. So typical of people on boards...
As for your comments on "black men" vs. white men. I am really not going to dignify that since so many ill fated conclusions can be drawn when you start to slice up racial issues. I view "black men" as MEN. Sorry, I came across many interesting stats on black males, but I chose not to separate them because I think black people need to be counted as just "people" at some point... we don't need to constantly put a label of "black" on someone when it is convenient. I am sure your violence and rape statistics would change if you view "black men" as different from "other men" and since you didn't decide to go down that road, why would I?
As usual, your points are simply shining the light on the inequalities that men have over women while completely ignoring the opposite... Objectification? Are you serious? Why even put that in there when men are subjected to similar media bias just not sexual.
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