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    Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    This i certainly do agree with! Women cause a helluva lot more emotional pain then most men do. This is something i see everyday. Not easy to back this up with numbers as this kind of trauma doesn'r really get reported but lets face it, its not all about physical abuse. I'd take a snap kick to the head instead of the sh1t my ex put me through any day of the week.
    It's not easy to back up with numbers because the media is so busy telling you and me and everyone how "horrible" men are and how women are the disadvantaged ones in this society.

    I just demonstrated how a statistic that is improperly used to suggest males have more judicial power is in fact really just the opposite, men are treated more harshly by "society".

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    Quote Originally Posted by LegalGear View Post
    This is the myth my friends and why it is USELESS to spout off a bunch of statistics without looking further into them. Isn't the point of POWER to give oneself preferential treatment? Shouldn't more male judges translate into men have the advantage in court and the lesser prison sentences? This is the BULL**** I am talking about. The fleecing of our ability to have compassion for ourselves as men.

    That is where I drew my conclusion from. I agree that all sentances should be the same.
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    As far as the relationship issue goes I honestly believe that the hurt is just as bad for both people. I've been hurt to the point of wanting to end it all as well. The thing is its hard to see it from the other sexes views if its happening to you. I know guys who have been hurt and women equally. Emotional pain is not a gender thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crader View Post
    That is where I drew my conclusion from. I agree that all sentances should be the same.
    What I was saying is that if you trust the logic and statistics from Mullet Soldier, then men should have the lesser sentence since men hold the power and the use of that power should equate into lesser sentences. However it is the opposite: men hold the power, but it equates into HIGHER prison sentences. I think all prison sentences should be the same yet somehow for all of this power "men" have we are penalized at a much higher rate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    This i certainly do agree with! Women cause a helluva lot more emotional pain then most men do. This is something i see everyday. Not easy to back this up with numbers as this kind of trauma doesn'r really get reported but lets face it, its not all about physical abuse. I'd take a snap kick to the head instead of the sh1t my ex put me through any day of the week.
    I agree with crader that it isn't 'easy' for either gender. However if you look at the differences between support systems, the process seems to be a more challenging one to recover from vs. a female. All things equal.


    Meaning the male has 5 good friends and the female has 5 good friends.


    After my break up awhile back, all my friends did the whole 'let's go out and meet new girls, etc, etc'.


    I was already fully aware that this wasnt going to make things better and they were doing the best that they could, however it just wasn't enough.
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    One of the TV shows that I'm not sure if it is one, but I really hate, well 2 of them.


    1. The Real OC (Orange County) Housewives
    2. Sex and the City.


    I really, really, really, really hate Sex and the City. All that show portrays is the world is a woman's oyster for sex and men's money. Concidently my ex used to love that show and she was like that. Go figure.


    I should have seen that one coming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    I agree with crader that it isn't 'easy' for either gender. However if you look at the differences between support systems, the process seems to be a more challenging one to recover from vs. a female. All things equal.


    Meaning the male has 5 good friends and the female has 5 good friends.


    After my break up awhile back, all my friends did the whole 'let's go out and meet new girls, etc, etc'.


    I was already fully aware that this wasnt going to make things better and they were doing the best that they could, however it just wasn't enough.
    Yes of course, guys just don't want to know most of the time.....until it happens to them.

    We can be pricks no doubt, i've seen my friends do some dumbs things that hurt their gf's etc but on a whole once the relationship has ended it seems to be the girls that will go out of their way to be spiteful or hurtful to the guy rather then just "getting over it". Ohwell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    One of the TV shows that I'm not sure if it is one, but I really hate, well 2 of them.


    1. The Real OC (Orange County) Housewives
    2. Sex and the City.


    I really, really, really, really hate Sex and the City. All that show portrays is the world is a woman's oyster for sex and men's money. Concidently my ex used to love that show and she was like that. Go figure.


    I should have seen that one coming.
    lol good point, every women under the age of 30 loves that show and no doubt would love to have the same lifestyle that those characters have.........just like i want to live like the guys on Entourage!!
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    Yeah, I don't like either. I don't like or support the idea that people are just a means to an end or for fun. It demeans people as human beings.
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    I find that show disgusting too, yet even more disgusting is "Mad About You" where Paul Riser is treated like a complete idiot and always apologizing.

    The issue I had with your statements Mullet is not that they are not good fodder for discussion, but that men need a place to discuss their issues without the propaganda being thrown in their faces in such a vicious way. Taking stats like you do without looking at the full ramifications are EXACTLY what the feminists do. The statistic "Men have more judicial power" Look deeper and you will see it isn't at all the case. Men are on the receiving end of hard criminal penalties that women do not have to endure.

    Men in my eyes are like the traditional "battered wife syndrome"...so quick to assume the blame and that they are "bad" when in reality men are not "bad" most men don't rape or abuse women and in reality I would say that minus the physical differences, more women hit men than men hit women. I personally have been struck by a woman and it went unreported since the damage wasn't severe (obviously).

    The book details that women even admit that they are more likely to strike a man then be struck. I understand the damage differences but the reality is that physical violence is pretty common for both sexes.

    Also, an interesting poll showed that 94% of men feel that they have been pressured into sex. The reasons for not wanting sex are clearly different (men usually don't want the commitment aspects) and 97% of women have been pressured for sex. Only a 3% difference. Still, this can be further broken down...I have been with quite a lot of women and most of them ASK me to spank them. Also, many of my female friends in college told me of dumping guys because they are not "men"...one girl went so far as to dump a guy because he asked her if he can kiss her. She said "I don't want to be asked to be kissed, I want him to have the balls to do it.

    The book details that at one point the most popular female purchased book was a tale where a man raped a woman and then she went to the prison and fell in love with him... Weird best seller isn't it? Over half of the TV mini-series depict women as the victims of violent struggles... (You know the classic Woman's Husband Abuses Her and She Lights Him On Fire...stories). Men in these stories are depicted as 100% at fault and near animals...the women depicted as completely innocent victims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    One of the TV shows that I'm not sure if it is one, but I really hate, well 2 of them.


    1. The Real OC (Orange County) Housewives
    2. Sex and the City.


    I really, really, really, really hate Sex and the City. All that show portrays is the world is a woman's oyster for sex and men's money. Concidently my ex used to love that show and she was like that. Go figure.


    I should have seen that one coming.
    Wow, I agree with Reaper.

    I find this trend in the minds of women to be repugnant. Promiscuity is a choice, and one that cannot be erased when you feel it is time to "settle down", nor is it "my past, therefore my business"....what it does is speak of character, which any prospective mate has the absolute right to know.

    "Hey, given condition a, b, and c I turn into a non-discriminating bar slut"

    Umm...ok, well it was nice meeting you and good luck with your life.

    To be completely fair, I am not nor have I ever been remotely promiscuous, and it is NOT ok for men either, so the double-standard argument holds no water.
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    dsade-


    This is probably the thing that pissed me off the absolute most about my ex. Her (and her friends) lived the Sex and the City mentality. For them it was men were supposed to fall to their knees and cater to them.

    At the time I wasn't at my current job and still in college so having to afford to buy her all these nice things was difficult and it was so expensive. To her though, she didn't really care about my own financial needs, but only her own fantasy which was propagated by these perverted TV shows like Sex and the City.


    Well, lo and behold, it is impossible to please someone like this and she eventually bailed. On top of that I was:

    - Cheap (well, not really I just didn't feel like buying all the time)

    - A loser (because I didn't buy everything she wanted)

    - Didn't love her enough (once again, didn't buy everything)


    So not only at the time did I deal with my ex-gf jumping ship, but she conviently left me with a damaged ego and low self-esteem and sad. Thanks for nothing assho|e.


    To her (and her friends), I (and probably other guys as well), were just a means to an end and all part of the 'Sex and the City' fantasy that many of those bastards play out in their head.



    It isn't that I'm bitter and before I get called out and shlt for being 'jaded or bitter', its not even that. It is that there is always the other side of the story, and for one person's happy go lucky experience, it came at my own expense. The lack of empathy involved is always a nice touch as well.




    Thank goodness, I don't put up with that bullshlt anymore, that was a lesson hard-learned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegalGear View Post
    Now we get to the crux of the issue:

    Mullet, I don't blame you since you are taught to just look at a statistic and "nuff said" right? is it Nuff said?

    "Hmm...the judicial system? No, try again..."

    Yes, the judicial system. Great one. So, by your beliefs and statistics, the greater number of men as judges would then give men the advantage. You cite this as the belief that more male judges give more males power...in the form of preferential treatment under the law.

    Isn't that so? Having more men as judges would give men the advantage right? So, in fact a man that goes before a judge has a much greater chance of being in front of a male judge and this then equates into preferential treatment? Right? "try again" Right, isn't that what you said "try again"?

    So, if there are more men on the bench and men have more power and thus preferential treatment, then why are men sentenced more harshly?

    Rape
    Female 117 Months
    Male 159 Months

    Aggravated Assault
    Female 49 Months
    Male 83 Months

    Buglary
    Females 46 Months
    Males 66 Monts

    Larceny
    Females 36 Months
    Males 48 Months

    This is the myth my friends and why it is USELESS to spout off a bunch of statistics without looking further into them. Isn't the point of POWER to give oneself preferential treatment? Shouldn't more male judges translate into men have the advantage in court and the lesser prison sentences? This is the BULL**** I am talking about. The fleecing of our ability to have compassion for ourselves as men.

    The point is that men do indeed have more control but that control is largely (in my arguement) used to benefit WOMEN and further eroding of men and the portrayal of men as "animals" and "power mongers" that benefit men only is wrong and destructive to ALL people...men and women.
    Despite all your fire and rhetoric, your points were still made poorly. I do not look at statistics and say, 'Nuff said', but apparently you do. For example, your 96% death rate is not a causal indicator of unfairly differentiated wages, one must look into it further and see a common link.

    Organizational structures (employment structures) have been found to have a bias in reproducing dominant masculine norms, specifically in respects to 'male' conceived positions - these positions being 'dangerous', 'labour', or 'high power' occupations. In both respects, that puts men in more positions of power i.e., higher wage, as well at more dangerous positions i.e., a higher death rate. Bias does not mean women 'choose' (ridiculous notion on your part, btw) to be denied these positions, nor do men necessarily consciously deny them.

    Onto your judicial statement. As you misunderstood me, I'll tackle both your misinterpreted response, as well as speaking about the original intent of the statement.

    Your misinterpreted response:

    Despite you ferociously digging, I am sure, to find a point that is valid enough to warrant discussion, this is not it. Sentences are levied in terms of severity of crimes, and none of your stats speak to the exact nature of any of the crimes committed. Further, one also needs to dig deeper, in light of your suggestion, and find that most of the male sentencing is racially disproportionate - that is, over 70% of incarcerated males are black, while only comprising about 55% of arrestees. Combine that with consistently longer sentencing times of Black males over either white or black females, and it appears you may have let out with, 'nuff said', upon regurgitating these statistics.

    The initial intent:

    The intent of that statement was not to suggest that men or women would receive preferential treatment during sentencing. The intent was to expose gender differentiation in occupational structures, even at the highest level. Employment bias has become legalized (good book, btw), and it permeates every occupation. If you do wish to speak about legalized bias, I am game for that. I spent a whole semester on that!

    As towards your comment of female power somehow degrading masculinity, that is incorrect as well (for a man so hellbent on pointing out my short-comings of analysis, you may as well be a midget of debate). Hegemonic masculinity itself degrades the male form via locking men and boys into unfair systems of power, authority, and control, that are destructive to all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegalGear View Post
    I find that show disgusting too, yet even more disgusting is "Mad About You" where Paul Riser is treated like a complete idiot and always apologizing.

    The issue I had with your statements Mullet is not that they are not good fodder for discussion, but that men need a place to discuss their issues without the propaganda being thrown in their faces in such a vicious way. Taking stats like you do without looking at the full ramifications are EXACTLY what the feminists do. The statistic "Men have more judicial power" Look deeper and you will see it isn't at all the case. Men are on the receiving end of hard criminal penalties that women do not have to endure.

    Men in my eyes are like the traditional "battered wife syndrome"...so quick to assume the blame and that they are "bad" when in reality men are not "bad" most men don't rape or abuse women and in reality I would say that minus the physical differences, more women hit men than men hit women. I personally have been struck by a woman and it went unreported since the damage wasn't severe (obviously).

    The book details that women even admit that they are more likely to strike a man then be struck. I understand the damage differences but the reality is that physical violence is pretty common for both sexes.

    Also, an interesting poll showed that 94% of men feel that they have been pressured into sex. The reasons for not wanting sex are clearly different (men usually don't want the commitment aspects) and 97% of women have been pressured for sex. Only a 3% difference. Still, this can be further broken down...I have been with quite a lot of women and most of them ASK me to spank them. Also, many of my female friends in college told me of dumping guys because they are not "men"...one girl went so far as to dump a guy because he asked her if he can kiss her. She said "I don't want to be asked to be kissed, I want him to have the balls to do it.

    The book details that at one point the most popular female purchased book was a tale where a man raped a woman and then she went to the prison and fell in love with him... Weird best seller isn't it? Over half of the TV mini-series depict women as the victims of violent struggles... (You know the classic Woman's Husband Abuses Her and She Lights Him On Fire...stories). Men in these stories are depicted as 100% at fault and near animals...the women depicted as completely innocent victims.
    As I said, ironically, your stats are short-sighted, and I am sure, deliberately so. What I find hilarious is your inability to dig deeper into the statistics. I am sure you were utterly joyous when you found a stat, seemingly incontrovertibly proving your point! However, obviously, you did not even consider the racial element. That unfortunately exposes your lack of critical engagement with the literature you are using - and further, knowledge of the social structure at large.

    Believe LG, stringent feminists piss me off; as do stringent environmentalists; stringent vegans; or stringent masculinists; my point is a level and equitable playing field for all. While I respect your intent, it is poorly made because of its inherently one-sided nature. In your quest to restore male rights - which in itself is an oxymoronical quest - you are forgetting female rights. Further, if your quest was about 'everyone', why have you not at one point mentioned racially differentiated inequity within an intra-gender context? Are black males not as important was white ones?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegalGear View Post
    What I was saying is that if you trust the logic and statistics from Mullet Soldier, then men should have the lesser sentence since men hold the power and the use of that power should equate into lesser sentences. However it is the opposite: men hold the power, but it equates into HIGHER prison sentences. I think all prison sentences should be the same yet somehow for all of this power "men" have we are penalized at a much higher rate.
    Wrong again (geez, now we both sound like a broken record).
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkprice View Post
    Women are no more disadvantage then men. Rape stats are not an indication of Social Status, there crimes Stats.

    Who gets rape and why has nothing to do with socials norms sense rape is not condoned as a social norm. If men get shot more, what does that makes us?
    Well, the problem here is that sexuality is a norm, bk. Unfortunately, gun rights, for example, are normative as well. So, yes, rape is an indicator of socio-economic status (impoverished black females are raped twice as often as white middle class females) as well as social norms (hegemonic masculinity).

    Also, social norms also allow for the majority of women to choose there mate.
    Agreed. However, that is more evolutionary-biological rather than normative; females of any species are vested with the responsibility to ensure only the highest quality genes are accepted. Therefore, it is their responsibility to choose the mates which they feel pose the highest opportunity for survival and quality reproduction. If you and LG wish to cry foul in that respect, you best start with nature.
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    We've all been through that before and I need to be honest here, I do believe that women are much worse and hurtful after a relationship. My fiance and I were just discussing it this morning and she admits that women are much more vengeful in general than men in her opinion.

    I have been on the receiving end of this. The point of this forum is to honestly provide support for guys that are going through some of this ****. After a relationship, honestly getting laid was last on my list. I was hurt and reflective. Women often play the "I will call to see if he still wants me" game, only to find out you still want her and then she will act like you are annoying and a psycho. I see the games women play with their exes and it sickens me. I have been on the receiving end of these on more occasions than not.

    I coached a woman on how to best handle her ex (who obviously still loved her) she refused to listen and the guy eventually snapped. I told her to tell him each time he calls "You are a good looking guy. Our relationship is over, but you don't need me and will find someone else." That is the proper way to break up with someone. She refused to do that, instead string him along and he went nuts... From the outside he is a nut and she has a sob story...right? Yet, I TOLD her how to avoid this and she chose not to...
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegalGear View Post
    We've all been through that before and I need to be honest here, I do believe that women are much worse and hurtful after a relationship. My fiance and I were just discussing it this morning and she admits that women are much more vengeful in general than men in her opinion.

    I have been on the receiving end of this. The point of this forum is to honestly provide support for guys that are going through some of this ****. After a relationship, honestly getting laid was last on my list. I was hurt and reflective. Women often play the "I will call to see if he still wants me" game, only to find out you still want her and then she will act like you are annoying and a psycho. I see the games women play with their exes and it sickens me. I have been on the receiving end of these on more occasions than not.

    I coached a woman on how to best handle her ex (who obviously still loved her) she refused to listen and the guy eventually snapped. I told her to tell him each time he calls "You are a good looking guy. Our relationship is over, but you don't need me and will find someone else." That is the proper way to break up with someone. She refused to do that, instead string him along and he went nuts... From the outside he is a nut and she has a sob story...right? Yet, I TOLD her how to avoid this and she chose not to...
    what i've been trying to say.
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    LG, I am not trying to take the piss out of your lil' He-Man Woman Haters Club. If you want to 'spout off' with regurgitated statistics and improper analysis, be my guest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Despite all your fire and rhetoric, your points were still made poorly. I do not look at statistics and say, 'Nuff said', but apparently you do. For example, your 96% death rate is not a causal indicator of unfairly differentiated wages, one must look into it further and see a common link.

    Organizational structures (employment structures) have been found to have a bias in reproducing dominant masculine norms, specifically in respects to 'male' conceived positions - these positions being 'dangerous', 'labour', or 'high power' occupations. In both respects, that puts men in more positions of power i.e., higher wage, as well at more dangerous positions i.e., a higher death rate. Bias does not mean women 'choose' (ridiculous notion on your part, btw) to be denied these positions, nor do men necessarily consciously deny them.

    Onto your judicial statement. As you misunderstood me, I'll tackle both your misinterpreted response, as well as speaking about the original intent of the statement.

    Your misinterpreted response:

    Despite you ferociously digging, I am sure, to find a point that is valid enough to warrant discussion, this is not it. Sentences are levied in terms of severity of crimes, and none of your stats speak to the exact nature of any of the crimes committed. Further, one also needs to dig deeper, in light of your suggestion, and find that most of the male sentencing is racially disproportionate - that is, over 70% of incarcerated males are black, while only comprising about 55% of arrestees. Combine that with consistently longer sentencing times of Black males over either white or black females, and it appears you may have let out with, 'nuff said', upon regurgitating these statistics.

    The initial intent:

    The intent of that statement was not to suggest that men or women would receive preferential treatment during sentencing. The intent was to expose gender differentiation in occupational structures, even at the highest level. Employment bias has become legalized (good book, btw), and it permeates every occupation. If you do wish to speak about legalized bias, I am game for that. I spent a whole semester on that!

    As towards your comment of female power somehow degrading masculinity, that is incorrect as well (for a man so hellbent on pointing out my short-comings of analysis, you may as well be a midget of debate). Hegemonic masculinity itself degrades the male form via locking men and boys into unfair systems of power, authority, and control, that are destructive to all.

    I can find plenty of stats and examples to support my perspective and I think overwhelmingly the bias is toward men being at fault in the media and society...not the other way around. What I am trying to do is provide some balance to what we get in the media and from the feminists.

    The point to this most recent discussion is that occupational differences don't equate to "power", which is what you argue in 80% of your statements. Occupational differences and earning differences are a very simple part of a very complex discussion on who holds real power in society.

    It is very easy to say that men make more so they hold more power, yet I have given one example of how it is not that simple and have provided other examples of the inequality (unless you consider 57,000 men in Vietnam trivial).

    Quite honestly, you are the only person in this discussion being insulting with your insinuating "ferociously digging" comments. You know what I did last night? I went running, hit the treadmill and watched Family Guy. I wasn't ferociously digging into anything.

    Discussions with you are pointless, not because you don't have good points, but because of your condescending tone and argumentative attitude. So typical of people on boards...

    As for your comments on "black men" vs. white men. I am really not going to dignify that since so many ill fated conclusions can be drawn when you start to slice up racial issues. I view "black men" as MEN. Sorry, I came across many interesting stats on black males, but I chose not to separate them because I think black people need to be counted as just "people" at some point... we don't need to constantly put a label of "black" on someone when it is convenient. I am sure your violence and rape statistics would change if you view "black men" as different from "other men" and since you didn't decide to go down that road, why would I?

    As usual, your points are simply shining the light on the inequalities that men have over women while completely ignoring the opposite... Objectification? Are you serious? Why even put that in there when men are subjected to similar media bias just not sexual.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegalGear View Post
    We've all been through that before and I need to be honest here, I do believe that women are much worse and hurtful after a relationship. My fiance and I were just discussing it this morning and she admits that women are much more vengeful in general than men in her opinion.

    I have been on the receiving end of this. The point of this forum is to honestly provide support for guys that are going through some of this ****. After a relationship, honestly getting laid was last on my list. I was hurt and reflective. Women often play the "I will call to see if he still wants me" game, only to find out you still want her and then she will act like you are annoying and a psycho. I see the games women play with their exes and it sickens me. I have been on the receiving end of these on more occasions than not.

    I coached a woman on how to best handle her ex (who obviously still loved her) she refused to listen and the guy eventually snapped. I told her to tell him each time he calls "You are a good looking guy. Our relationship is over, but you don't need me and will find someone else." That is the proper way to break up with someone. She refused to do that, instead string him along and he went nuts... From the outside he is a nut and she has a sob story...right? Yet, I TOLD her how to avoid this and she chose not to...


    Usually women just ignore the guy. The guy is obviously upset so he goes after her and just loses more self-respect and dignity in the process.


    Then this is more ammo on why he is 'such a loser.'


    Likewise, I've seen my own friends lose all their self-respect and dignity in the process of losing a relationship. It is sad to watch.


    The worst, and I mean absolute WORST part about this is that they all had very good intentions about everything.


    To their ex's they were psychos and losers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegalGear View Post
    I can find plenty of stats and examples to support my perspective and I think overwhelmingly the bias is toward men being at fault in the media and society...not the other way around. What I am trying to do is provide some balance to what we get in the media and from the feminists.

    The point to this most recent discussion is that occupational differences don't equate to "power", which is what you argue in 80% of your statements. Occupational differences and earning differences are a very simple part of a very complex discussion on who holds real power in society.

    It is very easy to say that men make more so they hold more power, yet I have given one example of how it is not that simple and have provided other examples of the inequality (unless you consider 57,000 men in Vietnam trivial).

    Quite honestly, you are the only person in this discussion being insulting with your insinuating "ferociously digging" comments. You know what I did last night? I went running, hit the treadmill and watched Family Guy. I wasn't ferociously digging into anything.

    Discussions with you are pointless, not because you don't have good points, but because of your condescending tone and argumentative attitude. So typical of people on boards...

    As for your comments on "black men" vs. white men. I am really not going to dignify that since so many ill fated conclusions can be drawn when you start to slice up racial issues. I view "black men" as MEN. Sorry, I came across many interesting stats on black males, but I chose not to separate them because I think black people need to be counted as just "people" at some point... we don't need to constantly put a label of "black" on someone when it is convenient. I am sure your violence and rape statistics would change if you view "black men" as different from "other men" and since you didn't decide to go down that road, why would I?

    As usual, your points are simply shining the light on the inequalities that men have over women while completely ignoring the opposite... Objectification? Are you serious? Why even put that in there when men are subjected to similar media bias just not sexual.
    I don't think you are grasping it, so this will be my last point. You are reducing very complex issues into male vs., female, when it is not the case. Nor did you understand my issue on race - it was to show your unequal time for equal crime argument, like all of your arguments, were short-sighted and flawed. You claimed that males receive longer sentencing, and I explained to you why. Unfortunately, black males are subject to longer sentencing for parallel crimes than any other population sub-group; therefore, those incarceration stats skew the broader context of male incarceration rates. However, I suppose you would claim that North America is void of racism, as well?

    In any respect, you still have not come up with anything to objectively enforce any of your opinionated or rhetorical claims - period. I can say, "People say the sky is blue..the media tells you that BULL**** after the blue-skyists propagate it. It's BULL****", but it does not make it true: when I look outside, the sky is still, well, blue.

    As well LG, your purpose is better served via being pro-male, as opposed to anti-female, which is how this thread came across. Gender bias, in a general sense, yet lies squarely in masculine hands - get over it. How you should have begun this thread, in my opinion, should have been less antagonistic, less short-sighted, and embracing the complexity of the issues (as opposed to reducing them as you have done). For example, divorce and alimony court is ridiculously unfair to males; the prostate research example you brought up is very fair and real; why is that women's privacy is, at times, more important than male privacy, and so on. These are real pro-male issues which can be presented and discussed without putting forward the ridiculous anti-female notions you have.
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    I work in a female dominated profession.......HELP ME!!!!!

    Giggity, Giggity, Giggity, Alright!

    :chick:

    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Legendary

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    My notions are not at all anti-female and it is pointless to discuss anything with you because you don't get it and hurl insults, make false statements and accusations. I am pro-people, just that the media seems to bend to an anti-male for the past 10 years in my eyes and to many males... Although, I strongly disapprove of your name calling and insinuations (woman hater etc...) if you would like, I will send you a copy of that book, so you can have a good read. Just PM me your details. Unfortunately, your posts are pompous self congratulatory and lack any real substance, you change the argument and then ignore my deeper look into the statistics. Your whole argument is based on a sheerly financial view of power in society when I am expanding to try and get you out of this very narrow view point. Money is one aspect of life and although the inequities associated with it are there, they are not telling considering the other aspects of life that are advantageous to women.

    You remind me of me when I was a bit more hot headed... What was written and what I "read" were two different things. Reread my original post and tell me what "anti-female" statements I made? Women's groups are the only individual comment I made, and that is implied to mean radical women's rights activists who think that men have all of the advantages, which is clearly not true. These groups still fill people's heads with this flawed belief. Then read your response and ask yourself if it was warranted...


    Well, anyway...the situations you put on the table for us Reaper are my experiences as well... men who are really trying to work on a relationship get labeled as psycho's. Sadly, the experiences I had the woman draws the man in and then pushes him away once their ego has been satisfied. Not to say that men (myself included) didn't deserve some anger in return, just not to the extent I have observed.
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    I don't see a single thing in my original post that would lead you to conclude that I hate women. To me (10 years) is a long time and I think the trend to villianize men has been going on for quite a lot longer (probably closer to 30 years). I was merely starting a dialog to show how men in our society currently are lead to believe that they have all the advantages. When pressed for a deeper look into statistics that you feel show women to be the lesser power, I then show you how men (all men) use that supposed power to punish each other, negating the supposed benefit, thus rendering the supposed positive a negative.

    What I am trying to say is that there are advantages and disadvantages for both genders and it isn't right to constantly have pushed in our faces that men have ALL of the advantages. My original point is that men do not have ALL of the advantages...there are MANY advantages to being a woman yet those are largely ignored. Women have multiple journals, classes and associations trumpeting their hardships and experiences, yet men have almost none of these things available to them. This is the issue I wish to prevent. I am for 100% equal treatment of all people under the law.

    In rereading the posts, I am stricken by the conclusions you jump to almost in every post that really have no basis in reality like " however, to say women are advantaged daily is ridiculous." Who said that? What I was saying is that women have MANY advantages that account for a lot. Yet as a society we ONLY seem to focus on the disadvantages to being a woman and those are heavily underscored by the radical groups that push their agenda and 100% biased views on the media.

    I am done with this thread and I refuse to discuss anything further with you Mullet. If you want a copy of the book, I will send it to you. Best of luck in life.
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    Referring back to LG's OP, he is referring to a book by Warren Farrell (also the author of "The Liberated Man" & "Why Men Are The Way They Are"); Farrell was a ranking official for the National Organization For Women for many years (3 times elected to their Board - the only man so approved), and spent years explaining to men why the women in their lives were so hurt, so angry, so 'difficult'.

    Over time, he came to realise that the conversation was relentlessly one-sided: that the men he was talking to & working with about their gender issues felt helpless, powerless, unheard, their experiences with women ignored, unheard, dismissed. This led to his writing WMATWTA, in an effort to articulate for men and for women the unarticulated feelings of men about their experiences as men - and especially in relation to women - based on his years of working w/ couples on gender issues. The book has been praised by a wide range of professional men and women.

    His subsequent book, "The Myth of Male Power", Farrell moves beyond questions of interpersonal relationships & into the area of social and cultural structures; his ideas and conclusions are challenging - sometimes startling - revolving around a central question: are the 'signs and symbols' of male power truly indicative of power, or of a deeper cultural assessment of the relative value of men and women - and of the responsibilities & accountabilities relegated to each sex?

    The "Phil Donahue" model suggests that we simply roll over, accepting whatever women have to say about men at face value; the Farrell model suggests that women need to listen to men, too - and more: men need to listen to each other.

    MulletSoldier, I have great respect for you, and believe I understand your defense of women in this thread - and I wouldn't stand for any gratuitous bashing of women myself. May I suggest that you read one of these books? I truly believe Farrell's work is as important as any other pursuit of gender justice.

    Heck, I think everyone would benefit if people read Farrell as frequently as they read Greer, Steinem or Friday (in fact, Friday provided a laudatory blurb to TMoMP: given her occasionally hateful characterisations of men, that should say something).
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    MulletSoldier, I have great respect for you, and believe I understand your defense of women in this thread - and I wouldn't stand for any gratuitous bashing of women myself. May I suggest that you read one of these books? I truly believe Farrell's work is as important as any other pursuit of gender justice.

    Heck, I think everyone would benefit if people read Farrell as frequently as they read Greer, Steinem or Friday (in fact, Friday provided a laudatory blurb to TMoMP: given her occasionally hateful characterisations of men, that should say something).
    Definitely, if you could provide a link that would be very gracious of you. Let me be clear: I believe, as I am sure you do, in gender justice and equity. However, I feel it can be achieved through mutually inclusive strategies - that is, we may propagate male, without, as LG is doing, demoralizing the feminine movement.

    What is incredibly ironic about this thread, is the blatant misunderstanding of the word, 'Feminist'. Feminist Theory, whether purely academic, or especially methodological, means equity across cultural, socio-economic, geographic, and physical lines, not simply engendered ones.

    As well, one needs to separate the unequal balance of power within specific arrangements, from indicators of general power value in the 'society at large'. Proportion and context are important traits here.

    LG:

    Calling hegemonic masculinity, or any opposition to that, 'BULL****' more or less characterizes you as I did.
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    Dude, give it up already... The point as always was there are advantages and disadvantages to being each gender, but women (and men) are only taught the female point of view. Other than tacitly admitting custody (which ironically is becoming much more equitable) issues have just done a typical internet debate tactic and I am sorry, just not buying it. Keep calling names, change the discussion, refuse to respond to arguments, misconstrue statements...Is this Pat Arnold? How about you just drop it and let me have my "ignorant" views and your far more enlightened view point can celebrate how smart you are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crader View Post
    I agree with Mullet. As a divorced woman I can tell you we don't automatically have the advantage. In the job market I don't get paid more or get special advantages.

    I also don't get protected in the court sysytem any easier. You know I had an ex that was violent and I tried to get a restraining order. I had a multitude of police runs where he corned me and chased me...did I get the order..nope! They told me he had to hit me first. So basically I had to have what the order is supposed to prevent in order to actually get the help.

    I also have no problem with a guy opening a door for me. I find it very sweet. However I will do the same..its respect not feminism.
    I thought you and Dsade are married.
    Freedom means nothing here.
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    I'll live my life the way I want to. There are plenty of good women out there.

    I hope one of them understands that it is my destiny to build an iron suit and fight crime.
    Freedom means nothing here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    I thought you and Dsade are married.
    We are but he is not the father of my kids or my first marriage. This is my interactions as a single mother and my fights in the courts from my kids father.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Definitely, if you could provide a link that would be very gracious of you.
    Why Men Are The Way They Are
    The Myth of Male Power

    Not sure if these will help, but here ya go!
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    Quote Originally Posted by crader View Post
    We are but he is not the father of my kids or my first marriage. This is my interactions as a single mother and my fights in the courts from my kids father.
    Sweet.
    Freedom means nothing here.
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    my only complaint is why women complain about us making more money than them. how else can we afford the expensive gifts they demand from us? anyone seen the price of gold lately? and diamonds-whew. i wear a suit until it don't fit, but my wife has to have a new outfit for every occasion, talk about inequalities. got to love em though, my wife has stuck with me though some very lean times. GOD bless them, a good woman can make you feel more manly than any testosterone boosting stack ever could.
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    doesn't seem like much of a relationship to me if I have to continually bribe my "partner" to continue participating
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Really? We operate in a capital system based on patriarchy. Property rights were primarily male, and not much has changed; Judeo-Christian society as a whole is patriarchal, period.

    I'm sure men are subject to sexual assault to a greater degree than women....oh wait.

    Well, women must control a greater share of the world's largest TNC/NGOs/Fortune 500.....oops.

    Well, the top 5% of wage-earners must be primarily female....nope, not that either.

    Hmm...the judicial system? No, try again...

    Political representation in either Canada or the US's parliament houses.....

    Men are subject to objectification in media en masse...****, I am striking out here...

    A greater proportion of the bottom 5% of wage earners are male?...Nope, opposite again.
    I would argue that even if Western/Judeo-Christian society is patriarchal it is also the society that spawned the woman's rights movement. I don't think that we will see a woman's right movement getting any traction in the Middle East (outside of Israel) anytime soon. Conversely I predict that post-Christian Europe will see a uptick in the oppression of women as it becomes further inundated with Muslim migrants.

    As far as the sexual abuse of women, again I don't think we can look to other parts of the globe. Perhaps you take the position that all cultures are equal, and then your position makes some sense. But the idea that all cultures are equal is debatable, and I happen to believe that Western Civilization as a whole is head and shoulders above the rest of the worlds cultures.

    That being said we have to look at the root causes of the sexual abuse of women in the West. Offhand I would suggest that they are: criminal rape, incest, and general lewd behavior (if I leave any out forgive me, I am posting en haste). I would suggest that rape, incest, and lewd behavior are the result of behavioral disorders, most of which are the result of the perpetrator being a victim of sexual abuse at some time in his life. So if the perpetrators of sexual abuse against women are men who were sexually abused as children, it would appear that the root cause lies in the victimization of male children.

    As far as the judicial system, women fair far better in divorce cases than men.

    Concerning the media objectification of women, well lets just look at one of the biggest movies in the country right now: "Sex in the City". No man could possibly portray the modern woman any worse than she is portrayed in that show/movie. I am not saying that the objectification of women is a good thing, but I am making a point that our culture is just all around at a low point.

    As far as women making up a high percentage of low wage earners I would suggest that this is the case because of teenage pregnancy and out of wedlock births. The best way in the world to ensure that you will be poor is to have a child without a father who will stick around and help raise the thing. Again this is has more to do with the decay of our culture way more than it has to do with men "running sh!t".
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    doesn't seem like much of a relationship to me if I have to continually bribe my "partner" to continue participating
    haha, sorry you see it that way. my wife stuck with me through some lean times when we didn't have much, now that things have improved i like to spoil her. it's a choice I make.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadof2 View Post
    As far as the judicial system, women fair far better in divorce cases than men.
    That's the truth!
    Speaking from experience, I was with my ex for 14 years before she divorced me. She chewed on me like a piece of gum. When my flavor was all gone she spit me out in the gutter. I was always true to her and gave her my best. One day she just decided she was done with me and wanted a divorce. Long story short, even though she has a great job making decent money, I'm the one who gets totally screwed on child support and spousal support. Don't get me wrong, I love my kids and I have no problem paying child support but the judge totally ruled in her favor. She takes half of my income plus she keeps her income. I don't understand it. With the money I have left, it's tough to make ends meet and even harder to have any kind of social life. But what can I do, just move on right?
    Last edited by majorpain; 06-11-2008 at 10:57 AM. Reason: typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by majorpain View Post
    That's the truth!
    Speaking from experience, I was with my ex for 14 years before she divorced me. She chewed on me like a piece of gum. When my flavor was all gone she spit out in the gutter. I was always true to her and gave her my best. One day she just decided she was done with me and wanted a divorce. Long story short, even though she has a great job making decent money, I'm the one who gets totally screwed on child support and spousal support. Don't get me wrong, I love my kids and I have no problem paying child support but the judge totally ruled in her favor. She takes half of my income plus she keeps her income. I don't understand it. With the money I have left, it's tough to make ends meet and even harder to have any kind of social life. But what can I do, just move on right?
    oouch, man that is some serious hurt. sorry if i say i hope i never experience that. if it is any condolence, i think your case is the kind of thing that caused eric to start this thread, hang in there man, it can only get better. good luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by majorpain View Post
    That's the truth!
    Speaking from experience, I was with my ex for 14 years before she divorced me. She chewed on me like a piece of gum. When my flavor was all gone she spit out in the gutter. I was always true to her and gave her my best. One day she just decided she was done with me and wanted a divorce. Long story short, even though she has a great job making decent money, I'm the one who gets totally screwed on child support and spousal support. Don't get me wrong, I love my kids and I have no problem paying child support but the judge totally ruled in her favor. She takes half of my income plus she keeps her income. I don't understand it. With the money I have left, it's tough to make ends meet and even harder to have any kind of social life. But what can I do, just move on right?
    ouch man that sucks, but i bet your not the only guy who's been done over like that. I bet most women seem to think its justifiable that she gets half your income etc....could you imagine the outrage from women if it was the other way around and you got the kids and half her income.......it would probably be a first as well.
  

  
 

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