I believe that Lion was the only one selling IGF with BSA. Needless to say lion wasn't a very good source to begin with so why you would buy from him is beyond me.

Originally Posted by mywetnightmares

I believe that Lion was the only one selling IGF with BSA. Needless to say lion wasn't a very good source to begin with so why you would buy from him is beyond me.

Moreover, Lion's stuff wasn't IGF-1 to begin with. It was just the part of the molecule that binds to the receptor. You need the whole peptide for actual effect. It was absolutely harmful sh!t that.

Simple: never ever buy Lion.

Originally Posted by vin

I checked out the ponsors but had no luck finding any. Is it still being made?
Thanks again,
Vin
sakuraba@email.com

YGM

Thanks!!!

Hey Grunt,
A few questions for you regarding IGF-1 theory:
1. I have seen a study indicating that an increase in circulating IGF-1 increases bone density. What are your thoughts on exogenous use having this effect? And would this effect only be while circulating levels are high and the density would go back to normal upon cessation of exogenous use.

2. It is generaly excepted that IGF-1 use will, and does create new muscle cells. And this will have a permanent effect on the user's total muscle cell count. But how are we sure that there is no negative feedback loop regarding the number of muscle cells in the body and the level of IGF-1 circulating? So when we cease the exogenous use of IGF-1 our body loses the extra created cells eventually? Because we already have a genetic base level of circulating IGF-1 - this level would seem to be supporting our own current muscle cell numbers. It seems logical to me that upon going back to our own genetic level of IGF-1, we would eventually go back to our predisposed cell count also. Cells die and get replicated all the time - our growth factor seems to depend on the rate that each of these occur. More creation than death means growth - and vice versa.

3. Since IGF-1 use has a negative feedback effect on ones own circulating HGH levels - why is HGH use (even in relatively small amounts) not recommended with the use of IGF-1? I know that IGF-1 is derived from HGH but it is only a portion of what HGH does. Will lower levels of HGH cause connective tissue issues for example? If you are taking IGF-1 EOD or E3D - what are it's effects on HGH levels over a long cycle such as 20 weeks? This protocal might have this as a side-effect. Just a thought.

I'm not a scientist - and I'm only just starting my research on this topic - but these are some questions that I have not seen answered in the Pubmed studies that I've read. I respect your knowledge on all issues regarding anabolic substances - so I tought I'd ask your thoughts.

Thanks,
Stupes

Originally Posted by Stupes

Hey Grunt,
A few questions for you regarding IGF-1 theory:
1. I have seen a study indicating that an increase in circulating IGF-1 increases bone density. What are your thoughts on exogenous use having this effect? And would this effect only be while circulating levels are high and the density would go back to normal upon cessation of exogenous use.

No, bone density is increased from the added regenerative ability to bone from IGF-1. It will remain elevated, at least for a good while. GH secretagogues are being investigated for this exact effect from the IGF-1 generated from the extra gh.

Originally Posted by Stupes

2. It is generaly excepted that IGF-1 use will, and does create new muscle cells. And this will have a permanent effect on the user's total muscle cell count. But how are we sure that there is no negative feedback loop regarding the number of muscle cells in the body and the level of IGF-1 circulating? So when we cease the exogenous use of IGF-1 our body loses the extra created cells eventually? Because we already have a genetic base level of circulating IGF-1 - this level would seem to be supporting our own current muscle cell numbers. It seems logical to me that upon going back to our own genetic level of IGF-1, we would eventually go back to our predisposed cell count also. Cells die and get replicated all the time - our growth factor seems to depend on the rate that each of these occur. More creation than death means growth - and vice versa.

Hyperplasia is a rare thing. When I state "rare" I mean that you cannot expect a significant number of myotubes to undergo mitosis at any time you are supplementing IGF-1. Over time it does add up. But the IGF does much more than hyperplasia: it fuses the myoblasts to the myotubes, making them permanently bigger. From all I know about IGF-1 and muscle cells, even if you had minuscule systemic (paracrine) igf-1 levels, no muscle cell would die from that. You also should know that these cells themselves express IGF-1.

Originally Posted by Stupes

3. Since IGF-1 use has a negative feedback effect on ones own circulating HGH levels - why is HGH use (even in relatively small amounts) not recommended with the use of IGF-1? I know that IGF-1 is derived from HGH but it is only a portion of what HGH does. Will lower levels of HGH cause connective tissue issues for example? If you are taking IGF-1 EOD or E3D - what are it's effects on HGH levels over a long cycle such as 20 weeks? This protocal might have this as a side-effect. Just a thought.

GH use *IS* recommended with IGF-1. That's a simply great stack. GH is expensive for a lot of people though, so that would be the reason it isn't added to more igf cycles. Heck some people think IGF-1 is pricey.

Those are some good questions bro, I hope I helped.

3. Since IGF-1 use has a negative feedback effect on ones own circulating HGH levels - why is HGH use (even in relatively small amounts) not recommended with the use of IGF-1?


yeah, i don't know where you got that from. I've gotten better results from a low-dose combo of the two than on either one alone. anyone who has tried them stacked will attest to the fact that they are synergistic.

if you suspect that you might have insulin insensativity would that make IGF LR3 work better or worse?

Originally Posted by skull

if you suspect that you might have insulin insensativity would that make IGF LR3 work better or worse?

Pretty much the same.

Originally Posted by NattyNow

3. Since IGF-1 use has a negative feedback effect on ones own circulating HGH levels - why is HGH use (even in relatively small amounts) not recommended with the use of IGF-1?


yeah, i don't know where you got that from. I've gotten better results from a low-dose combo of the two than on either one alone. anyone who has tried them stacked will attest to the fact that they are synergistic.

I suppose I worded my question stupidly - maybe I should have said - is HGH use a needed with the use of IGF-1? Does IGF-1 deplete HGH enough to have negative effects on tissue if you are on just IGF-1 for 8 weeks?

And what dosage and dosing scheme would be recommended for GH while on IGF-1 3x week at 40mcg a day?

Originally Posted by Grunt76

No, bone density is increased from the added regenerative ability to bone from IGF-1. It will remain elevated, at least for a good while. GH secretagogues are being investigated for this exact effect from the IGF-1 generated from the extra gh.


Hyperplasia is a rare thing. When I state "rare" I mean that you cannot expect a significant number of myotubes to undergo mitosis at any time you are supplementing IGF-1. Over time it does add up. But the IGF does much more than hyperplasia: it fuses the myoblasts to the myotubes, making them permanently bigger. From all I know about IGF-1 and muscle cells, even if you had minuscule systemic (paracrine) igf-1 levels, no muscle cell would die from that. You also should know that these cells themselves express IGF-1.


GH use *IS* recommended with IGF-1. That's a simply great stack. GH is expensive for a lot of people though, so that would be the reason it isn't added to more igf cycles. Heck some people think IGF-1 is pricey.

Those are some good questions bro, I hope I helped.

These answers helped greatly - my research has just begun and this gives me some solid footing to start with.

I am doing my first "real" cycle in January:
DB's 40mg weeks 1-4
Test-E 500mg weeks 1-10
Winni 50mg weeks 9-12

I'm curious about throwing IGF-1 into this 4 weeks on 2 off and running it through PCT. 3x week 100mcg per week. I was going to use IGF-1 just during PCT and bridge until my next cycle in some way. But it seems the increased myoblast ability during AAS use should be taken advantage of with IGF-1. However, would you recommend I wait since it's my first cycle? I can't see any reason why - but maybe there is something I just don't know? Thanks for all the help here, guys.

Originally Posted by Stupes

These answers helped greatly - my research has just begun and this gives me some solid footing to start with.

I am doing my first "real" cycle in January:
DB's 40mg weeks 1-4
Test-E 500mg weeks 1-10
Winni 50mg weeks 9-12

I'm curious about throwing IGF-1 into this 4 weeks on 2 off and running it through post cycle therapy. 3x week 100mcg per week. I was going to use IGF-1 just during PCT and bridge until my next cycle in some way. But it seems the increased myoblast ability during anabolic steroids use should be taken advantage of with IGF-1. However, would you recommend I wait since it's my first cycle? I can't see any reason why - but maybe there is something I just don't know? Thanks for all the help here, guys.

The way you have it planned, throughout the cycle and PCT, is best.

Originally Posted by Grunt76

The way you have it planned, throughout the cycle and post cycle therapy, is best.

Thanks Grunt.

I must take the time to thank Grunt for creating this sticky. I've run IGF many times (and am currently on it right now too) and I've been trolling around some other boards and you would not believe the amount of misinformation going around regarding IGF usage. Its mostly regarding dosage and the debate between ED vs E3D dosing. So many folks are under the impression (a false one at that) that 100 mcg ED for 30 days on, 30 off is the only way to go and where "the magic happens". Let me just say that I'm 5'10" 275# (in offseason shape, waist is hovering around 36") and I've never used more than 60 mcg ED and that was still too much. I'm sticking with 50 mcg post workout on training days only, which turns out to be 4 or 5 times per week. Even this may very well be a little too much, but taking into account my level of LBM and exprience with IGF-1, I justified this dosing scheme in my head.

Bottom line, I think people are fooled into beleiving hi doses are the way to go because of misinformation and misinterpretation of results. The 2nd week on IGF-1 is where you really start to get that full, pumped feeling all day long and, get this...it will happen whether you're on 40 mcg or 100 mcg (or according to Dave Palumbo, 11 mcg ED - which probably is just fine too). But the fact is that at such hi doses (over 50 mcg) you will notice absolutely nothing after 2 or 3 weeks. At such doses and frequency of pinning, receptors are saturated and down-regulated.

Anyway, I might just be stating the obvious and rehashing everything thats been said here but I just wanted to give props to Grunt for laying all the proper info out there for everyone on this board to enjoy and learn from.

Glad to hear it, Rocky82.

One thing that I can't stress enough is that one fairly large source is selling 1000mcg (1mg) vials with just BW.

Of course, in BW, the IGF will only last a few days.

Just imagine the guys with that product comparing a 50mcg E3D protocol where their vial lasts months and a 100mcg ED protocol where they get maybe half the IGF-1 from it, OF COURSE the 100mcg ED protocol will be much much better. Because reconstituted with BW, there will be no IGF-1 in the shots after the 3rd dose...

Hey Grunt, I was just wondering if there's any scientific basis behind the increased hunger/carb craving that some experience while on IGF-1. I know that carbs are much better utilized and insulin sensitivity is increased, but I for one have increased hunger while not feeling hypoglycemic (as I would if all my carbs were shuttled into the cells and my blood glucose were in the toilet). Also, I have always noticed increased diuresis while using IGF. Any reasoning behind that?

On a personal note I've thus far only utilized IGF during post cycle therapy. I have a few grams that I have to use by the end of January so I'll be going 4 weeks on/ 4 off only because I will be lifting likely at least 5 days a week and pwo pins will be almost as if I were doing ED. Then again, I may just go PWO at 50 mcg for as long as I can feel (as best i can) the results coming. This time I'm on cycle, test/tren/PP-superdrol split. I can feel the increased fullness and hunger already and it's only been a week.

Again, thanks for all the great info. I truly feel bad for those guys who don't know any better and are pinning 80-100 mcg ED for multiple cycles. A few years down the road they'll have guts that make Coleman jealous. And if it's from organomegaly (which it is) there's no way to get rid of it. Trust me i know, I have a few long, heavy GH cycles under my belt (no pun intended) and i definitely notice a bulge in my upper abdomen regardless of how low my bf% is. It's not nearly as bad as Ronnie's of course but I'm definitely altering my future GH cycles and using IGF-1 as efficiently as I can.

Any take on IGF + DNP? Currently on IGF and my DNP is here... I do not want to stop IGF, and perhaps it can help from losing any of that hard earned LBM.

Originally Posted by Rocky82

Hey Grunt, I was just wondering if there's any scientific basis behind the increased hunger/carb craving that some experience while on IGF-1. I know that carbs are much better utilized and insulin sensitivity is increased, but I for one have increased hunger while not feeling hypoglycemic (as I would if all my carbs were shuttled into the cells and my blood glucose were in the toilet). Also, I have always noticed increased diuresis while using IGF. Any reasoning behind that?

On a personal note I've thus far only utilized IGF during post cycle therapy. I have a few grams that I have to use by the end of January so I'll be going 4 weeks on/ 4 off only because I will be lifting likely at least 5 days a week and pwo pins will be almost as if I were doing ED. Then again, I may just go PWO at 50 mcg for as long as I can feel (as best i can) the results coming. This time I'm on cycle, test/tren/PP-superdrol split. I can feel the increased fullness and hunger already and it's only been a week.

Again, thanks for all the great info. I truly feel bad for those guys who don't know any better and are pinning 80-100 mcg ED for multiple cycles. A few years down the road they'll have guts that make Coleman jealous. And if it's from organomegaly (which it is) there's no way to get rid of it. Trust me i know, I have a few long, heavy GH cycles under my belt (no pun intended) and i definitely notice a bulge in my upper abdomen regardless of how low my bf% is. It's not nearly as bad as Ronnie's of course but I'm definitely altering my future GH cycles and using IGF-1 as efficiently as I can.

Shuttling all the carbs and amino acids to your muscle will make you hungry that's for sure. As far as not feeling hypoglycaemic, well if you injected 250mcg at one time you might get there, but between normal nutrition and 50mcg or so, it's just enough to get a good nutrient-shuttling effect without it being crazy like with insulin.

Originally Posted by not_big_enuf

Any take on IGF + DNP? Currently on IGF and my DNP is here... I do not want to stop IGF, and perhaps it can help from losing any of that hard earned LBM.

I would never touch DNP bro. Too much is unknown. Especially not with IGF.

Originally Posted by Grunt76

I would never touch DNP bro. Too much is unknown. Especially not with IGF.

I have done both and I had a better time cutting with igf and got some hyperplasia as well. Took about twice as long but I got the same results without all the worry and sides.

I'm not too worried about DNP.... just curious about mixing it with IGF. I'll hold off for now. Don't want too many unknowns.

Originally Posted by ryano

I have done both and I had a better time cutting with igf and got some hyperplasia as well. Took about twice as long but I got the same results without all the worry and sides.

That sounds very reasonable. One thing I don't get is how everyone is in such a hurry to get huge or in a tearing hurry to lose 20lbs of fat NOW. I mean, it's very doable if you take your time, and much less likely to rebound like mad.

You got it right in my book bro. Reps.

I got my first star...awww schucks thanks Grunt

Originally Posted by Grunt76

That sounds very reasonable. One thing I don't get is how everyone is in such a hurry to get huge or in a tearing hurry to lose 20lbs of fat NOW. I mean, it's very doable if you take your time, and much less likely to rebound like mad.

You got it right in my book bro. Reps.

For me I put on fat faster than I would have like in my last... uh, bulk. The extra fat right now is killing me and making me go literally nuts. I hate it. It's funny, I lost about 100 lbs a while back, and you'd think if I gained a little on a bulk I'd know that it wouldn't be a problem losing it. I know I can lose it, but right now I hate myself. I also trust my DNP source and know many, many people who have used him and used it reasonably and intelligently. I don't take this decision lightly and realize what my stakes are.

For me, I've learned a lot about bulking, eating right, etc, and I'll never make the same type of mistakes with this last bulk that I did. For now, I need to get rid of what I've put on... for some it seems insane, but for me, it has to be done or it's going to drive me into madness.

Ok, enough with that. I just wanted y'all to know I'm not tossing around these substances lightly and why DNP is my road right now. Now where's JBlaze when you need him....

Originally Posted by not_big_enuf

For me I put on fat faster than I would have like in my last... uh, bulk. The extra fat right now is killing me and making me go literally nuts. I hate it. It's funny, I lost about 100 lbs a while back, and you'd think if I gained a little on a bulk I'd know that it wouldn't be a problem losing it. I know I can lose it, but right now I hate myself. I also trust my DNP source and know many, many people who have used him and used it reasonably and intelligently. I don't take this decision lightly and realize what my stakes are.

For me, I've learned a lot about bulking, eating right, etc, and I'll never make the same type of mistakes with this last bulk that I did. For now, I need to get rid of what I've put on... for some it seems insane, but for me, it has to be done or it's going to drive me into madness.

Ok, enough with that. I just wanted y'all to know I'm not tossing around these substances lightly and why DNP is my road right now. Now where's JBlaze when you need him....

I have no doubt you take DNP seriously and have done your homework. I did the same. I think alot of the horror stories of DNP deaths is exaggerated but the danger is there. Along with the sides. IMHO wich are tolerable at a reasonable dose.

I have recently put on about 24 pds over the course of the last 3 or 4 months. I lost my father recently along with my jeep. I went on a crap eating binge and just now getting back to my routine. So I feel you bro on hating the fat. I too know I can lose it.

I guess what I was getting at is that I had just as good results with Igflr3 if not better when you take into consideration the hyperplasia and other benefits. If your in a hurry really the amount of time it takes to lose some weight with DNP with a reasonable dose and time off to clear out your system (2 on 2 off approach with 600mg DNP daily) a six weeker of igf will accomplish the same thing with more muscles growing in the months ahead.

Originally Posted by ryano

I have no doubt you take DNP seriously and have done your homework. I did the same. I think alot of the horror stories of DNP deaths is exaggerated but the danger is there. Along with the sides. IMHO wich are tolerable at a reasonable dose.

I have recently put on about 24 pds over the course of the last 3 or 4 months. I lost my father recently along with my jeep. I went on a crap eating binge and just now getting back to my routine. So I feel you bro on hating the fat. I too know I can lose it.

I guess what I was getting at is that I had just as good results with Igflr3 if not better when you take into consideration the hyperplasia and other benefits. If your in a hurry really the amount of time it takes to lose some weight with DNP with a reasonable dose and time off to clear out your system (2 on 2 off approach with 600mg DNP daily) a six weeker of igf will accomplish the same thing with more muscles growing in the months ahead.

Excellent... I thank you for the advice ryano! I wish more people were around truly caring about others and giving their opinions and knowledge. Didn't mean to jack the IGF thread either gents

Bro's, I am in the exact same boat.

In mid-May, I began a cutting cycle that was going to get me shredded and keep my mass. Well on May... 25(?) I crashed my bicycle and broke both forearms and a shoulder.

Cut aborted, and when you start a cut, you aren't usually in your best shape. Then inactive for a few months while the body heals and VOILÀ! I have quite a bit of extra stuff I need to get rid of.

So I just wanted to share my crybaby story with you guys.

Originally Posted by Grunt76

Bro's, I am in the exact same boat.

In mid-May, I began a cutting cycle that was going to get me shredded and keep my mass. Well on May... 25(?) I crashed my bicycle and broke both forearms and a shoulder.

Cut aborted, and when you start a cut, you aren't usually in your best shape. Then inactive for a few months while the body heals and VOILÀ! I have quite a bit of extra stuff I need to get rid of.

So I just wanted to share my crybaby story with you guys.

You're mocking me... aren't you?!?!?!?!?! Bastard...............

We can all be fat together!!!!!!!!!

Fatties.

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

Fatties.

Your avatar sucks... I wish you a +30 holiday season... go ahead have more pie.. you deserve it.