Some new GH info I just found out regarding T3.
- 09-28-2004, 09:47 PM
Some new GH info I just found out regarding T3.
So, i've been searching around massmonsterz.com and I just found that GH will lower your T3 levels. They all say that you need to run T3 during a GH cycle the whole time at 25mcg. Cant that shut down your natual T3 production if your running T3 for that long? What are you supposed to do.
- 09-28-2004, 10:00 PM
thats not new info, people have been saying that for a long time bro. I think it goes both ways, some say you should, some say you shouldn't. There is studies to back up both ways, i'll post them tonight so check back.
Btw- Post the "igf-1 results thread" that i made. I know you didn't have great results w/ it, but i'm trying to get all the negatives and positives in there. Thanks bro.
- 09-28-2004, 11:30 PM
the way i do my t-3 is 6 weeks on at 25mcg/day, then 3 weeks off. Some say this is needed, others say its not. I figure theres not much to lose so i go ahead and use it.
09-28-2004, 11:31 PM
here is the article regarding no t-3 on GH....This was posted by poantrex, on another board.
"Okay, i'm seeing everyone recommend the use of cytomel concurrently with growth hormone, and i'm sick of it. This belief stems from the fact that there are a few studies indicating that exogenous HGH impairs the production of _T4_, and somehow bodybuilders misinterpreted that.
T4 is not very metabolically active, whereas T3 is.
HGH actually _increases_ the conversion of T4 to T3, and Free t3 levels are signifigantly higher when running HGH - if you add T3 to a HGH cycle you may be negating that benefit. Here are some studies to prove it:
Effects of recombinant growth hormone therapy on thyroid hormone concentrations.
Kalina-Faska B, Kalina M, Koehler B.
Department of Pediatric Endocrinology and Diabetes, Medical University of Silesia, Katowice, Poland. [email protected]
BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVE: There are numerous, often contradictory reports on the effects of growth hormone (GH) therapy on thyroid function. The aim of this study was to assess the effect of such therapy on serum concentrations of thyroid hormones in GH-deficient children euthyroid prior to the treatment, and to determine the necessity of thyroid hormone administration in these patients. MATERIAL AND METHODS: The study included 32 GH-deficient patients in the first stage of sexual development, in whom disorders of thyroid function could be excluded. The inclusion criteria were based on clinical examination and levels of thyroxine (T4), triiodothyronine (T3), free thyroxine (fT4), free triiodothyronine (fT3), reverse triiodothyronine (rT3), thyrotropin (TSH) before and after stimulation with thyrotropin-releasing hormone (TRH). Recombinant growth hormone (rGH) (Genotropin 16U, Pharmacia) was administered at a dose of 0.7 U/kg/week. Fasting blood samples were drawn before treatment and after 3, 6, 9 and 12 months of therapy. Thyroid hormones were measured using RIA and IRMA methods. RESULTS: There were no physical signs of hypothyroidism in the patients examined during 12 months of rGH administration, and the satisfactory growth rate was achieved. T4 levels decreased in the first 3 months but remained within the normal range, and then returned to the values prior to the treatment. A similar trend was observed for fF4, with 28.5% of patients exhibiting fF4 levels below the normal in the 3rd month. An increase during the first 3 months of therapy was observed in the cases of T3 (statistically non-significant) and fT3, and these values then fell to levels within the normal range of patients' age. During treatment, TSH levels decreased but remained within the normal range. CONCLUSIONS: A transient decrease in T4 concentrations in the 3rd month with unchanged T3 and an increase in fT3 concentrations probably result from the effect of rGH on the peripheral metabolism of thyroid hormones. The results obtained do not support the use of thyroid hormone therapy with levothyroxine during the first year of rGH therapy in patients who are initially euthyroid.
PMID: 14756384 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Effects of short-term growth hormone treatment on PTH, calcitriol, thyroid hormones, insulin and glucagon.
Brixen K, Nielsen HK, Bouillon R, Flyvbjerg A, Mosekilde L.
University Department of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Aarhus County Hospital, Denmark.
We measured changes in serum insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1), calcitriol, parathyroid hormone (PTH), thyroid hormones, insulin, and plasma glucagon in response to seven days of treatment with a pharmacological dosage of recombinant human growth hormone (r-hGH) (0.1 IU/kg sc twice daily) or placebo in 20 normal male volunteers to evaluate whether the effect of r-hGH on biochemical bone markers could be attributed to changes in these hormones. Serum IGF-1 (p < 0.001) and vitamin D-binding protein (p < 0.001) increased steadily during treatment returning to baseline at day 14. Total calcitriol (p < 0.01) and free calcitriol index (p < 0.001) increased transiently at day 4. Furthermore, serum insulin (p < 0.001) and both total (p < 0.001) and free triiodothyronine (p < 0.02) increased during treatment, while serum PTH and plasma glucagon remained unchanged. In conclusion, pharmacological doses of r-hGH increased not only IGF-1 but also free-calcitriol index, insulin, and free T3. The increase in these hormones may be co-responsible for some of the observed effects of r-hGH on bone turnover and calcium homeostasis.
* Clinical Trial
* Controlled Clinical Trial
PMID: 1449044 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"
09-28-2004, 11:34 PM
so what about 2on 2off at 25mcg or do you think it needs to be longer like 6on 3off? Also, have you heard of anyone Fing up their thyroid on GH b/c they didnt supplement with T3? I havent but maybe you have?
09-28-2004, 11:42 PM
nope never once heard of it. I heard it bounces right back once you come off cycle. But theres always a special case, so who knows?Originally Posted by FullyBuilt
Heres a quote from Mallet, who i'm gonna be inviting to our board shortly. Really knowledgable bro, especially regarding thyoid issues.
"Your thyroid shouldn't be "shot" from GH, the glands are very resiliant, your thyroid is inhibited slightly due to the added GH but to a very small degree, your thyroid will kick back when you come off, add some coleus forskoli into your pct's and you'll avoid any rebound effects as well."
09-29-2004, 12:33 AM
Mallet would be a great addition to the board, I have received advice from him on AR, very knowledgeable and willing to give advice.
09-30-2004, 05:27 AM
GH inhibits the T4 5' deiodonase........... that's the pathway I believe.....
Also -- T3 is the workhorse but low FT4 sometimes links to depression..
09-30-2004, 08:02 PM
10-01-2004, 12:40 AM
Keep an eye on those 3 panels while on HGH every few months to watch for signs of hypothyroidism setting in .. geriatric patients in the anti-aging crowd seem more susceptible to going hypo with it and to have a baseline for treatment of the hypo or to watch any changes that stem from the HGH and/or HRT therapies..
I personally titrate my TSH to 0.6-1.0 land from a natural 2.0-2.5 ... my rationale is not the AACE conversative definition of subclinical hypothyroid.. but rather symptoms of it --- coldness, difficulty getting up in the morning, occasional depression like experiences, etc. The symptoms went away as I began to supplement T3 and T4 .... the common sense definitions are what many PCPs and internists will defer to... the endocriniologists seem to prefer the lab-centric AACE defs...
If you have a relatively stoked thyroid profile, don't expect to have to use exogenous thyroid... but be prepared to watch it every 3-6 months to be safe.... If your sluggish already, you may want to titrate to some better figures...
From a personal perspective.... I use and expect to continue using indefinitely into the future 12.5 mcg Liothyronine SR (compounded --- time release better than cytomel and 12.5 not a normal available dose) Am and PM for 25 mcg T3 SR total --- and 50 mcg Levoxyl (T4) ..... this boosted my sluggish FT4 back to the middle of clinical range, yielded a healthy and aggressive but far from hyperthyrodic TSH, an upper quartile FT3... I use 4-5 IU HGH 6 days.... and sometimes defer to windows of 2 IUs 6 days....
Hope this helps ..... keep an eye on your pulse... take angina and strange thumping more seriously than you normally would ... and be careful..... You can work with your physician when it comes to thyroid...... run the labs, describe the symptons, explain your goals and concerns, and make an educated decision together..... if you TSH is 1.5 lets say and FT3/FT4 @ 50th percentile... you might still want to say-- look -- through another physician when I was in Asia for 3 months the Dr. put me on and I felt better on.... and it reduced my depression, I didn't get cold all the time, and it was easier the get up in the morning..... I just felt better.. I'd like to try a very small dose and see how I feel...
If its subclinical hypo---- there in a diagnostic code..... the labs will be covered and the meds by your insurance carrier in all likelihood.................
10-01-2004, 02:08 AM
excellent. Thanks for the info. I got a full thyroid test done a while ago(tsh,etc...) and everything came back in the normal range, so I think i'll use GH without T3 but watch for the symptoms you listed. Thanks again.
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