does god exist

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bigironkiller

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i played part in another thread about religion and steroids, which got to far off topic, so im starting another thread here. im asking who here believes in god.....i am an open atheist and just want to have an open discussion where you dont have to hold back or be respectful....... say what you want please. one sybolism i used in the other thread was to compare children believing in santa clause to adults believing in god. to be more clear, if children were told that not believing in santa was a sin and would lead to there eternal damnation such as with religion,as adults we would belive in both santa and religion. also, do we really need god to be godd and moral??? no. being human, what nature designed is why we have the capacity to be good or bad. and i think if you look back thru the centuries people have diluted the bible more and more. it was once acceptable to kill heratics/non-believrs, but people have moved past that. reason it seems is still making slow progress to be priority over religion.

tell me im an idiot or whatever, i just want to have a discussion and see what people on this board are like.:cheers:
 

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I am not certain how long this thread will remain open, as this thread might not be well recevied. Personally, I am a non-theist, but as long as no one tries to push their beliefs on me, I am cool with it
 
Squeaks4ver

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God does exsist.. but there is no such person called "god" "god" is just a word that was made from the word Good..just as Devil was made from the word Evil. The reality that we were created is fact... for here we are.. and you cant have nothing from nothing.. though some will argue that you can have something from nothing.. and maybe in the long short of it... we are all "god" one electro magnetic being that just slowed down our vibrations at some point along the way to take individual forms.....
 
Usf97j4x4

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mathematically according to godel's incompleteness theorem... no, god does not exist. (thanks neon)

lol but I am a believer.
 

ReaperX

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I may have been naive to this, but there are a substantial non-believers, atheists, agnostics than I previously thought in the past.
 

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non-theism is on the rise, specifically as the world begins to take a turn for the worse, people wonder about the lack of response for said creator.
 
ozarkaBRAND

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to the OP:

You say that even without God humans can be moral. Well, tell me, just what is morality? If it is defined by humans, then it is obviously not perfect. Without God, there is no basis for morality, honestly, without God, ethics and the like just don't matter. We are equivalent to bacteria on a plate; we are such a small part of this universe, to think we are significant is just nonsense, and if we are so insignificant, then good morals are of no importance.
 

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to the OP:

You say that even without God humans can be moral. Well, tell me, just what is morality? If it is defined by humans, then it is obviously not perfect. Without God, there is no basis for morality, honestly, without God, ethics and the like just don't matter. We are equivalent to bacteria on a plate; we are such a small part of this universe, to think we are significant is just nonsense, and if we are so insignificant, then good morals are of no importance.
just a thought, can you define morals any better b/c of "god"? If so, please define it.....
 
ozarkaBRAND

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just a thought, can you define morals any better b/c of "god"? If so, please define it.....
Sure, it's complete righteousness, perfection in every sense of the word. It's impossible to accomplish in the human condition, but it's a goal to strive for, a template to conform to. Where does on get this template? In the teachings of Christ, and his disciples, along with old testament texts.
 

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Sure, it's complete righteousness, perfection in every sense of the word. It's impossible to accomplish in the human condition, but it's a goal to strive for, a template to conform to. Where does on get this template? In the teachings of Christ, and his disciples, along with old testament texts.
if it cannot be accomplished why strive? just curious

also, I do not know if using holy texts is the best method to show ones affinity to the divine. Most holy texts are so ravaged with self serving hypocrisy, that it makes it difficult to discern fact from fiction. <I have spent a great deal of time reading many of the holy texts: OT, NT, Qu'ran, Tao, etc..>
 
ozarkaBRAND

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if it cannot be accomplished why strive? just curious

also, I do not know if using holy texts is the best method to show ones affinity to the divine. Most holy texts are so ravaged with self serving hypocrisy, that it makes it difficult to discern fact from fiction. <I have spent a great deal of time reading many of the holy texts: OT, NT, Qu'ran, Tao, etc..>
If one has faith in what scripture says, then they know that it is their purpose to strive for these things. To me, the word of God holds true that the OT and NT are inspired by Him, His words written by human hands. Now, some translations definitely have their flaws, no doubt about that, it just takes some searching and prayer/meditation to discern what is true to God's intended message. Seems like a lot of crap to go through just to get a straight answer from the bible, but to me, it's fully worth it. It call comes down to faith in God, and a desire to live a life in accord with his commands.
 

ReaperX

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non-theism is on the rise, specifically as the world begins to take a turn for the worse, people wonder about the lack of response for said creator.



Turn for the worst ? Since when was the world ever 'good' to begin with ?
 
vpower

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nothing is good going on these days.. maybe people do good deeds or actions but NO God or "good" exists.. purely based upon delusional insecure people back in the day made up this fairy tale very similar to Jack in The beanstalk.. say what you want about my theories, but I stand by them 100%. Every Religion is Delusional in hopes of an after life..they bash each other religions thinking that theirs are superior to any other religion, but when it comes down to it.. whos ideas are better than the other?? None its all hogwash..Wars have being going on for thousands and thousands of years cuz of this stupid shytt. if we stopped fighting eachother of this religion stuff and open our minds to other national crisis going on, people wouldnt be wrapped up in all this. Im not saying that I dislike people who are religious just as long they dont push that stuff on me, I got enough to deal with at the mommment, and yes people deal with their own emotions and sort things out based upon themselves, not going into some building with Vaulted Celings where people take.. People can WRITE books, just like DR.SEUS but do you believe everything he has to say.. It is amazing that these scripts have been around for ages I do say, but its meaningless..Animals are just like us, but just because we can communicate better than them..we have the right to go to an after life?? Dont ask me how mountains and rivers came about I dont give a fuvk but I do know we evolved and if you think I'm wrong your too Delusional to break out of your bubble and grasp REALITY..haha people prolly hate me now, but I had to Contribute to this Thread...Thank You for Posting this Thread
 
LSU Gladiator

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Belief and disbelief are both faith based systems.

The believer typically goes this route (though unsaid):

I've been taught all of my life that God exists, and that his/her/their principles as presented in ________ (insert religious doctrine) should govern my life.

Some of these people never question if what they were taught is right or wrong in the first place.

The unbeliever typically goes this route (though unsaid):

Whether or not I've been taught all my life that God exists, I see natural, chemical mechanisms that proliferate life as we know it and I see problems with religious doctrine so therefore God must not exist.

At this point, these individuals cease to question their earlier conclusions and they become unbelievers.

As a skeptic, I say to the believer (specifically the Christian): You live by faith and not fact. That's what my Bible says. At this point, if you cite another Bible verse that says something about having an absolute knowledge of the Lord, then you have only expressed a conflict in the scripture - and thus you have fueled an argument of the nonbeliever. I think religion is a great thing if it adds meaning to a person's life. As a skeptic, I wish I didn't wonder about the afterlife so much because a lot of the time it keeps me from enjoying myself in the present day! I would only caution the believer to pay attention to your interactions with others. The first time you treat someone differently, or reach a conclusion based only on scripture... you really need to remember that the stuff that makes up the foundations of your belief is not empirically verifyable, and thus you have no concrete way of knowing that you are right.

As a skeptic, I say to the nonbeliever:
Though you like to think that you live by fact, recognize the aspect of faith that you do not voice. Science is an amazing thing, and it dissolves the mysteries of physical existence more and more by the day. Yet the question of Why we exist is, and will probably remain unanswerable. As our knowledge builds and builds, we really just become more adept at saying HOW our physical nature came to be, but not why. Evolution doesn't really say anything at all about a creator when put into perspective - For instance, maybe a God created the simple building blocks of life knowing that they would form our primordial origins. A simple, analytical human being can see that there are conflicts inherent in religious doctrine - that much is easy. But what if these conflicts are planned by the almighty, or what if they're just a result of the imperfect human being that jotted down the visions? Why would God let that happen? I have no idea! But since you don't have a verifyable answer to this question, it takes faith (GOOD OLE' BLIND FAITH) to say, "This scripture conflicts with previous scripture, and with prevalent notions regarding the almighty - therefore religous writings must be a mere record of uneducated, misperceived individuals and God must not exist." I would urge the nonbeliever to continue to examine their previously reached conclusions - were they right? Are they verifyable? How do you know?

I am always the one to play Devil's advocate. Hopefully if we keep burning the candle at both ends we will reach some sort of truth - whether it is what we want it to be or not.
 
KurtisWicked

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I've met God across his long walnut desk with his diplomas hanging on the wall behind him, and God asks me, "Why?" Why did I cause so much pain? Didn't I realize that each of us is a sacred, unique snowflake of special unique specialness? Can't I see how we're all manifestations of love? I look at God behind his desk, taking notes on a pad, but God's got this all wrong. We are not special. We are not crap or trash, either. We just are. We just are, and what happens just happens. And God says, "No, that's not right." Yeah. Well. Whatever. You can't teach God anything.
 

ReaperX

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I stated this awhile back on a thread similar to this. Every religion, Christian or other operates on 'faith' not 'fact'.

One of the more frequent arguments I hear is if God showed himself to me I'd believe.


Well, I haven't seen him myself. I don't know anyone personally who has. To go even further, I don't know anyone either who has seen/witnessed a miracle.

Faith stems from 'not knowing 100%'.

Fact stems from 'verifiable knowledge'.

If religion or God were 'fact' then belief would be non-existant, why would we need to believe when we already 'know'.

Some people really struggle with this. All the bad in the world, primarly just the 'bad' is what people can't grasp why a loving God allows such things.

I don't know for certain. No one does, we can guess, but no one really knows but God.

I struggle occassionally having to go through life without the answers. I can ask the questions, but I don't always get the answers. I still choose to hang with God even when all of life's answers are kept from me.
 
KurtisWicked

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When people believe or follow a strict line of thinking without questioning, they are choosing ignorance over enlightenment.
 
ozarkaBRAND

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When people believe or follow a strict line of thinking without questioning, they are choosing ignorance over enlightenment.
But when they follow it with thinking and questioning they are a true believer.
 

ReaperX

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Part of belief in God is that he is far superior to us. If I get to know everything, if I get all the answers and contol, well that makes me God in a way which is not the case.

Anyone can question.


I went through the worst period in my life last fall in Sept '07. Not to sound like I am wallowing in self-pity but it was close to a replica from the Book of Job.


I bet anyone else in my situation would have suicided. I honestly believe that. During this time, and even until now I still question God why I went through that situation. I ask questions all the time.


I don't get the answers to them and I must go through life's agony without those answers.

So now I am faced with 2 options in lieu of that:


1. I can tell God off and bounce since I didn't like his reponse.

2. I can trust, without knowing, that there was good that can arise out of that situation.
 
mattikus

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Some people seem to know everything. To say that people are delusional and closed minded for believing in something is closed minded in itself.
There are certainly things we do not know. I believe that God is much more than we could possibly fathom, and beyond our capacity for comprehension.
I have seen things in my life that leave me no doubt that God does indeed exist.
 
Ziricote

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So I was like "Hey God, do you exist?"
and he was all like "Hell no man, you crazy"
so I was then like "Oh shi so I am"
/crazy pills

Seriously, if it meant I wouldn't pay taxes or be broke all the time and maybe get more action with girls then I'd put some effort into it. As it stands Gods propaganda offers no such relief.

It doesn't help that every person that I've met that is religious (aside from the asian religions I must say) seem to want to convert me into one of their religion-bots, mindlessly believing everything is gonna be okay and that **** just happens because some dude that wrote a book said so.
 

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It doesn't help that every person that I've met that is religious (aside from the asian religions I must say) seem to want to convert me into one of their religion-bots, mindlessly believing everything is gonna be okay and that **** just happens because some dude that wrote a book said so.
HEre lies many of the issues. People spend too much time trying to make others what they are not, that they seem to forget who they are
 

ReaperX

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Depends on your experiences and expectations. What we want isn't always what is good for us.

God is like a father to a son.

The son may want a lot of thing, but the father always does what's best for his son. He dosen't always make his son happy, but always has the best intentions for him.


I feel that God is the same way and that good can arise from bad.

Like mattikus, I have also experienced events that have lead me to believe God does exist. They were not crazy over the top miracles that blew me away, but life experiences in general have also lead me to believe in God's experience.


Once we die (which we all will), we'll get to finally know that answer revolving around God and the existance of.
 
KurtisWicked

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So I was like "Hey God, do you exist?"
and he was all like "Hell no man, you crazy"
so I was then like "Oh shi so I am"
/crazy pills

Seriously, if it meant I wouldn't pay taxes or be broke all the time and maybe get more action with girls then I'd put some effort into it. As it stands Gods propaganda offers no such relief.

It doesn't help that every person that I've met that is religious (aside from the asian religions I must say) seem to want to convert me into one of their religion-bots, mindlessly believing everything is gonna be okay and that **** just happens because some dude that wrote a book said so.

Reps.
 
Ziricote

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Depends on your experiences and expectations. What we want isn't always what is good for us.

God is like a father to a son.

The son may want a lot of thing, but the father always does what's best for his son. He dosen't always make his son happy, but always has the best intentions for him.


I feel that God is the same way and that good can arise from bad.

Like mattikus, I have also experienced events that have lead me to believe God does exist. They were not crazy over the top miracles that blew me away, but life experiences in general have also lead me to believe in God's experience.


Once we die (which we all will), we'll get to finally know that answer revolving around God and the existance of.
What is this? A suicide pact!? I wanna live forever :run:
 

ReaperX

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Hey I've already posted several times and the thread isn't locked yet. This is going to be an awesome day.
 
Nabisco

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I'm an engineer. I like to have all the answers, have all the calculations come out a verifiable answer. So the scientist in me wants proof, but the one thing that science doesn't prove is why humans were the only kind of animal to evolve to the level we have. Were we primates not too long ago? If so, how come we haven't seen the current primates deviate into a more evolved form like humans since the initial evolution?

On a grander scale, we know what creates stars even planets to an extent. What created the universe? Was is always there? Where did matter come from if one day the universe just existed? All questions that I believe science will never answer.

In comes faith. What created the "Big Bang"? Something did, and could we call that something God? I believe so. Do I believe it's Alanis Morrisette : ) (Dogma)? Not really, but something somewhere had to create existence as we know it. So there we have it, a "scientist" who believes in God.

Then there is the topic of religion. And that my friends is an entirely different story. How many religions exist on this planet? Plenty, and they all vary. Do I believe in one or the other? Not specifically (Although when I did go to church it was Episcopal). I believe we are all worshiping the same God, the same creator of everything. People just devised different ways of representing that God. Organized religion on the other hand very quickly devolved into a means for the powerful to control the many. It has been abused and misused so often through history that it has come to disappoint me. I don't believe any one religion is right, nor wrong. I just believe too many people, put too much stock in every word that is written in their holy texts.

There are good lessons to be learned from each of the holy scriptures, but there are also contradictions and bad portions of each. For example did the Catholic church devise the Crusades for God? No, they did it to solve the problem of too many bored noble children wreaking havoc in Europe. Better to send them to a foreign land, not to mention the power it gave the church. Now the current day example of the Middle East. Are they killing, terrorizing, and mutilating civilians for Allah? No, they are doing it for power. They're lives were disrupted by Western powers who took away their power and they want it back. I won't go into the debate of whether or not its our fault or theirs. The point is, organized religion has been the excuse for some of the world's greatest atrocities.

So in the end, I believe there is a creator, a God. I don't believe this is how he/she/it wanted us to show our faith, by killing others. Like I said, I'm not trying to say all people who are part of organized religion are evil, nor do they all support what has happened in the name of their or other religions. I just feel that religion itself, although perhaps designed to give people faith, happiness, and enlightenment, has done far more harm than good.
 

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nabisco, by the same token then what created god?

the first creation argument doesnt work well
 

bigironkiller

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to the OP:

You say that even without God humans can be moral. Well, tell me, just what is morality? If it is defined by humans, then it is obviously not perfect. Without God, there is no basis for morality, honestly, without God, ethics and the like just don't matter. We are equivalent to bacteria on a plate; we are such a small part of this universe, to think we are significant is just nonsense, and if we are so insignificant, then good morals are of no importance.
we humans have the ability of choice. god did not give us that gift, but evolved thru evolution of the species. even some animals can display choice. humans are not perfect as is nothing else in nature. and why morals may not mater the choice we make is.
 
ozarkaBRAND

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we humans have the ability of choice. god did not give us that gift, but evolved thru evolution of the species. even some animals can display choice. humans are not perfect as is nothing else in nature. and why morals may not mater the choice we make is.
How can the choice matter? If there is no God and no great scheme of things then our choices are completely irrelevant and hold no significance.
 

bigironkiller

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How can the choice matter? If there is no God and no great scheme of things then our choices are completely irrelevant and hold no significance.
choice matters because we have a understand even a limited one of the consequences. the relavent scheme is to make it thru life the easiest way possible. it wouldnt be in your best interest to fck something up that could help you. god doesnt define life, god only gives "hope" to those who chose not to see reason
 
ozarkaBRAND

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choice matters because we have a understand even a limited one of the consequences. the relavent scheme is to make it thru life the easiest way possible. it wouldnt be in your best interest to fck something up that could help you. god doesnt define life, god only gives "hope" to those who chose not to see reason
Whose to say that a good life is something worth shooting for? Whose to say what defines a good life? Just what is someone's best interest and who gets to decide that?
 

bigironkiller

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ozarka, so your telling me if god was proved false tomorrow the person you are would cease to exist. you would become a killer, etc.???? basically you define yourself as a person hanging by a thread that if cut would change your life.......
 
ozarkaBRAND

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ozarka, so your telling me if god was proved false tomorrow the person you are would cease to exist. you would become a killer, etc.???? basically you define yourself as a person hanging by a thread that if cut would change your life.......
I can't say that I'd be a completely different person, but I def wouldn't hold back my actions due to their perceived morality.. If I was mad, I'd be a jerk, if I was wronged, I'd wrong right back, etc...

My life would def change.
 

bigironkiller

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Whose to say that a good life is something worth shooting for? Whose to say what defines a good life? Just what is someone's best interest and who gets to decide that?
you have just proved my point. CHOICE by the individual. you can screw yourself if you want, its your choice
 

bigironkiller

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I can't say that I'd be a completely different person, but I def wouldn't hold back my actions due to their perceived morality.. If I was mad, I'd be a jerk, if I was wronged, I'd wrong right back, etc...

My life would def change.
so you would act without hesitation.... whats wrong with that. when im mad im a jerk, if someone wrongs me i still make the choice to do right or wrong in my own understanding. god to you seems to be a limit on you experiencing true emotions in certain ways.
 
ozarkaBRAND

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you have just proved my point. CHOICE by the individual. you can screw yourself if you want, its your choice
Sorry, but I don't see how you've proved anything. It doesn't make very much sense, not logically anyway. Isn't that what you're all about? Logic?

You know, here's a thought, what if you're a lot less intelligent than you think you are, and all this "reason" that you use to prove to yourself that God does not exist is really just a collection of meaningless thoughts?
 
ozarkaBRAND

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so you would act without hesitation.... whats wrong with that. when im mad im a jerk, if someone wrongs me i still make the choice to do right or wrong in my own understanding. god to you seems to be a limit on you experiencing true emotions in certain ways.
No, I still experience the emotion, I choose to use self-control however so that I can avoid sin.
 

bigironkiller

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you use self control because you can see the consequences. for starters these are not all y thoughts and i never claimed to know everything. im just able to see the facts and make an educated decision. believe in god requires nothing except ignoring the facts. and where did i not exhibit logic???
 
timmmah

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No, I still experience the emotion, I choose to use self-control however so that I can avoid sin.
Just an observation; most of these arguments are for the side of atheism, how can no belief in something create such a heated discussion amongst the non-believers on the subject of something they don't believe in anyways?
It's kinda like a guy that's never eaten a chocolate doughnut arguing the point of how he doesn't like chocolate doughnuts.
:donut:
 

bigironkiller

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also, do you take everything in the bible as literal??? if you dont, somewhere you had to make a choice as to how to percieve it, or someone told you.
 

bigironkiller

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Just an observation; most of these arguments are for the side of atheism, how can no belief in something create such a heated discussion amongst the non-believers on the subject of something they don't believe in anyways?
It's kinda like a guy that's never eaten a chocolate doughnut arguing the point of how he doesn't like chocolate doughnuts.
:donut:
i said at the beginning i wanted to have a discussion to see what others on this board felt. i could argue on 100's of topics i dont care about, but still have an opinion.
 

bigironkiller

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im guesing timmah that you beleive in god and dont like the fact that the topic is being discussed.
 

bigironkiller

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thanks for all the stimulation talk guys, its bought time i get to sleep and grow, so ill check back tomorrow. good night:wave:
 
timmmah

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im guesing timmah that you beleive in god and dont like the fact that the topic is being discussed.
I think it's probably the most discussed discussion throughout history.You're right, I do believe in god, but no, I'm not upset that god is being discussed in this forum, I think god would be happy to hear himself spoken of. I was just making an observation.
 
mattikus

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the relavent scheme is to make it thru life the easiest way possible.
What is relevant to you may be irrelevant to another.
god doesnt define life, god only gives "hope" to those who chose not to see reason
God is many things to many people. To say that God only gives "hope" to those who chose not to see reason is a very narrow view. Who is choosing to be blind?
 
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