"Required" Stuff for high school.

[RedwolfWV]

Today was my son's first day in high school. He came home with the usual assortment of BS papers that I have to sign, basically saying that if he sneezes in the wrong direction they can put him in detention. (not quite, but you get the point)

Now one of these papers was from his Science Teacher. In it there is a REQUEST for $11.00 to purchase a subscription to a magazine that she will be using for a text. Now... I don't mind spending $11.00. BUT, I do mind paying for textbooks. Thats what my taxes are paying for. And I see this as a precedence setting type of thing. I can just see the math teacher next quarter saying "Hey, the science teacher got away with it.. Here's a magazine my kids need" and so on....

I'm going to send the money. But my question is, do I make an issue of this with the principal? Nicely of course, but firmly. I am quite sure that there are some families that won't be able to come up with that $11.00 so easily.

Do I say something? Or just let it go.....

 

[Zombie]

i would comment this with the principal and ask him/her what the advantage of that "subscription" > i mean the text book and internet arent enouf ???

 

[stxnas]

I don't see why the teacher can't subscribe to it and then make copies of the various articles that are needed for class...??? That would be the cheapest way to do it for the students, no?

 

[Zombie]

I don't see why the teacher can't subscribe to it and then make copies of the various articles that are needed for class...??? That would be the cheapest way to do it for the students, no?

maybe he gets a commision out of the subscriptions.

 

[stxnas]

That would be shady as hell!

 

[Wedgylx]

I think this teacher genuinely has the best interests of the student in mind here.

Perhaps meeting with her rather than the principle would be the right course of action .

It would just be a shame if the teacher got in trouble for this, when her only intention was to benefit your child

 

[Irish Cannon]

I agree with Wedgylx.

Think of it as purchasing a novel for Literature class.

Perhaps the teacher doesn't feel the text the school uses is up to par?

 

[stxnas]

I still don't see why copies can't be made. It could be worse than $11 though.

 

[Polynomial]

I still don't see why copies can't be made. It could be worse than $11 though.

Copyright problems.

 

[thesinner]

I don't see it as a problem for you to at least go to the principal, saying "Hey, I don't mind dropping $10, but am concerned this might be an issue for other parents. Have you taken any steps/precautions for such an issue?" In fact, this would be advisable. It's quite possible the principal is unaware of this.

From my experiences in highschool, you would be surprised how the smallest little flaws can find their way into the school system and make for HHHUUUUGGGGGEEEEE problems later on down the line.

 

[Polynomial]

I don't see it as a problem for you to at least go to the principal, saying "Hey, I don't mind dropping $10, but am concerned this might be an issue for other parents. Have you taken any steps/precautions for such an issue?" In fact, this would be advisable. It's quite possible the principal is unaware of this.

From my experiences in highschool, you would be surprised how the smallest little flaws can find their way into the school system and make for HHHUUUUGGGGGEEEEE problems later on down the line.

At which point the principal will go to the teacher and ask him/her about it. You might as well start with the teacher in a non-confrontational way.

From the teacher's point of view, there's a big difference between polite parental inquiry vs. the principal coming down with questions.

 

[RedwolfWV]

Thanks for all the replies. I think I am going to say something, and I'm leaning towards the principal. I'm sure the teacher all ready has it justified at least to herself. I'll make sure the principal knows that its out of concern, not because I cant part with ten or fifteen bucks. I agree with Sinner on this. I can see this kind of thing getting way out of hand quickly.

Just last year there was a lawsuit against the school system here in WV. They were really getting carried away on what they expected kids to have for school. I'm talking about graphing calculators that cost well over $100 and stuff like that. Pretty soon a laptop computer is going to be mandatory.

 

[Irish Cannon]

Thanks for all the replies. I think I am going to say something, and I'm leaning towards the principal. I'm sure the teacher all ready has it justified at least to herself. I'll make sure the principal knows that its out of concern, not because I cant part with ten or fifteen bucks. I agree with Sinner on this. I can see this kind of thing getting way out of hand quickly.

Just last year there was a lawsuit against the school system here in WV. They were really getting carried away on what they expected kids to have for school. I'm talking about graphing calculators that cost well over $100 and stuff like that. Pretty soon a laptop computer is going to be mandatory.

Education in high school is becoming better and stronger. If parents expect their kids to work at full potential and end up in Calculus courses, graphing calculators are essential; not to mention, if they are going to college and wil be taking college algebra and above, once again, they are completely necessary. You can only expect your tax dollars to go so far.

If things do get expensive, just remember... eBay! I've purchased plenty of my stuff on there for school. Speaking of which, my graphing calculator I bought used for $45 back when I was in high school and am still using today in my college courses.

 

[thesinner]

Graphing Calculators = Crap
They are absolutely worthless in calculus courses, IMO.


Just wait until your kid goes to College. You wanna talk about headaches? (I'm venting right now, as I'm having issues with a mandatory online service called E-Grade Plus).

 

[RedwolfWV]

See, I'd expect to have to get that stuff in college... thats not a "public" education as such. You pay to go to college. BTW, the graphing calculator was "required" for 8th grade algebra!

I think you might have missed my point Irish. We pay a huge amount in taxes to fund public education. They are supposed to supply the books. They are telling me I MUST buy this magazine that is going to be used as thier "text" Thats what I find objectionable. Its not the $$ involved, its the fact that they are trying to get out of thier responsibility.

 

[thesinner]

See, I'd expect to have to get that stuff in college... thats not a "public" education as such. You pay to go to college. BTW, the graphing calculator was "required" for 8th grade algebra!
I think you might have missed my point Irish. We pay a huge amount in taxes to fund public education. They are supposed to supply the books. They are telling me I MUST buy this magazine that is going to be used as thier "text" Thats what I find objectionable. Its not the $$ involved, its the fact that they are trying to get out of thier responsibility.

THAT IS A LIE!!! You do not need a graphing calculator to figure anything out with linear and parabolic equations. That's a bunch of BS.

Seriously, a graphing calculator is crap, it's just another way kids can sneak video games into the classroom, and schools keep plugging it because they put Graphing Calculator problems in textbooks nowadays.

Mathmatica, Matlab, Excel, and/or a specially licensed program from your employer are what you're gonna be using on the job. GC's are inferior piece's of junk. I haven't used mine since highschool (it was an underused requirement for pre-calc.).

 

[AE14]

I think this teacher genuinely has the best interests of the student in mind here.

Perhaps meeting with her rather than the principle would be the right course of action .

It would just be a shame if the teacher got in trouble for this, when her only intention was to benefit your child

As a high school teacher this is good advice. Do not go over her head: (principal, dept. supervisor etc...) just talk to her and get her rationale.

 

[AE14]

See, I'd expect to have to get that stuff in college... thats not a "public" education as such. You pay to go to college. BTW, the graphing calculator was "required" for 8th grade algebra!

I think you might have missed my point Irish. We pay a huge amount in taxes to fund public education. They are supposed to supply the books. They are telling me I MUST buy this magazine that is going to be used as thier "text" Thats what I find objectionable. Its not the $$ involved, its the fact that they are trying to get out of thier responsibility.

Just out of curiosity, did your most recent budget pass? The reason I ask is that if there are budget concerns or if it did not pass that will make every single dollar count.

Also, is this a ranked school? What I mean by that is within your state are you a highly rated district? If the expectations are high, then this is normal. I teach at one of the top schools in the country, and we have expenses for students for quite a bit.

Also, just out of curiosity, what are your taxes?

 

[Sunder]

My first instinct is to think the teacher has your child's best education at heart here.

Personally, I'd talk to the teacher about it first to see their point of view - then decide if you need to "take action" with the principal.

Sure taxes pay for books, etc to meet a minimum standard. I'm sure the FDA's suggest amount of protein is just a minimum standard to survive. I wouldn't expect a bb body to grow on that though.

How many teachers actually care about their students and their education anymore? I know, if after a while, I got bogged down by all the politics/red tape/principal rules crap that I'd just say "f$ck it! - I'll just teach the basic lessons that the school says is a min, then go home. Yes, I know little Johnny's interest in the subject could have propelled him further if I only had the proper motivation - but it's not worth the risk of having parents complain about it anymore".

A lot of times, the teacher's hands are tied with red tape when it comes to things like texts, etc...actually anything, lol. It's not about a quality education, it's about a budget.

 

[Iron Warrior]

As a high school teacher myself I would rather have the parents bring up any issues with me first because I've had some cases where parents go annoy the hell out of the principal because they have enough on their plate as it is.

If the teacher does something to cause you concern then definitely go talk to the principal or even the vice principal. I think the teacher is actually trying to go above the job description which should benefit your child. Many teachers do require some expensive material. High level math classes require a scientific calculator which can cost $80-100.

BTW, please try not to use the "My taxes pay your salary" card because most teachers, especially most of the young ones, teach because they want to make an impact and they don't make as much as the older teachers who have tenure and could get away with treating students like crap at their convenience.

 

[RedwolfWV]

Just out of curiosity, did your most recent budget pass? The reason I ask is that if there are budget concerns or if it did not pass that will make every single dollar count.

To the best of my knowledge, yes. They built a new (un-needed) middle school.

Also, is this a ranked school? What I mean by that is within your state are you a highly rated district? If the expectations are high, then this is normal. I teach at one of the top schools in the country, and we have expenses for students for quite a bit.

This is West Virginia man! We're 49th in everything! Our state motto is "Thank God for Mississippi!" In all seriousness, I have never seen a school ranking here, but I would say it is one of the better schools, mainly because we live in one of the larger cities, so there are more dollars available.

Also, just out of curiosity, what are your taxes?

I really couldn't tell you off the top of my head. But on top of regular taxes (both sales, property, and state income) we have a state lottery that "supposedly" goes to education.

 

[RedwolfWV]

BTW, please try not to use the "My taxes pay your salary" card because most teachers, especially most of the young ones, teach because they want to make an impact and they don't make as much as the older teachers who have tenure and could get away with treating students like crap at their convenience.

I had no intentions of bringing up teachers salaries here. The "Good" teachers get paid far less than they should... trouble is only about 25% of all the teachers I've ever known (and I used to work very closely with the school districts here in WV) fall under that category. That aside, your statement does happen to be true. Taxes do pay teachers salaries.

 

[Polynomial]

Graphing Calculators = Crap
They are absolutely worthless in calculus courses, IMO.


Just wait until your kid goes to College. You wanna talk about headaches? (I'm venting right now, as I'm having issues with a mandatory online service called E-Grade Plus).

I teach Calc at my university and calculators do have their use, I think. Over the past 20 years we've experienced a "calc reform" movement that emphasizes teaching the students from a "graphical, numerical, and algebraic" perspective. I don't let my students use calculators on exams, but during class they are often asked to run some examples on their calculator to help them understand some theory.

 

[AE14]

To the best of my knowledge, yes. They built a new (un-needed) middle school..

this is an important issue. It seems that if your student population is increasing enough to warrant another building, then the odds are it passed. With that said, there are justifications for this type of expenditure. My school district is instituting a policy of student activity funds. Parents will need to pay for students to partake in athletics.

This is West Virginia man! We're 49th in everything! Our state motto is "Thank God for Mississippi!" In all seriousness, I have never seen a school ranking here, but I would say it is one of the better schools, mainly because we live in one of the larger cities, so there are more dollars available..

First off, this is hilarious. If it is one of the better schools, you might have your answer right there.

I really couldn't tell you off the top of my head. But on top of regular taxes (both sales, property, and state income) we have a state lottery that "supposedly" goes to education.

I would take a look at your most recent tax bill. However, if you are escrowing through your mortgage co. you might not know off the top of your head.

 

[CROWLER]

RV, have you ever heard of the self fulfilling prophecy. It basically goes like this. They told math teachers that certain students were EXCELLENT in math and others not so much so. In reality they were all on the same level.

You guessed it the kids who were suppose to be smart did well on tests and vise versa. Reason was the teachers THOUGHT they were smarter and treated them that way.

To me $11 or even the principle of the $11 is not worth possibly pissing off a child's teacher for even subconsciously it could negatively effect they way they treat that child. If another parent can't afford the $11 let them bring it up.


CROWLER

 

[RedwolfWV]

Your probably right Crowler, its probably not worth pissing her off.
It seems that most of the people here think its ok for the school to do what it wants, even if its crossing the line of legality.

I honestly don't know what I'm going to do now. I'll probably write a note to the teacher, telling her how I feel about this, and enclose the check.

I wonder how many checks I'll be sending next semester.

 

[thesinner]

I teach Calc at my university and calculators do have their use, I think. Over the past 20 years we've experienced a "calc reform" movement that emphasizes teaching the students from a "graphical, numerical, and algebraic" perspective. I don't let my students use calculators on exams, but during class they are often asked to run some examples on their calculator to help them understand some theory.

There's been a bigger push for them over the years. Personally, I think I've learned easier by drawing the graph: it teaches me to recognize the shape of the curve by just reading the function. I think I understand why you think they might help, but I think over-use will lead to a worse understanding of the mathematics.

From every calc. class I've ever been in, you really don't need anything beyond a rough sketch of the graph to help you out. For the graphing problems in my engineering courses, a graphing calculator is not enough to cut it; gotta use excel or mathematica or ChemCad.

 

[Wedgylx]

There's been a bigger push for them over the years. Personally, I think I've learned easier by drawing the graph: it teaches me to recognize the shape of the curve by just reading the function. I think I understand why you think they might help, but I think over-use will lead to a worse understanding of the mathematics.

From every calc. class I've ever been in, you really don't need anything beyond a rough sketch of the graph to help you out. For the graphing problems in my engineering courses, a graphing calculator is not enough to cut it; gotta use excel or mathematica or ChemCad.

Sinner, My TI83 was invaluable in my upper level courses like Advanced Placement Calculus. If you didn't have one, you would have failed the course - it was really that simple.

 

[ReaperX]

This is West Virginia man! We're 49th in everything! Our state motto is "Thank God for Mississippi!" In all seriousness, I have never seen a school ranking here, but I would say it is one of the better schools, mainly because we live in one of the larger cities, so there are more dollars available.

Hahaha...wow. 49th in everything..........hehehe that's hilarious.

 

[Squeaks4ver]

check with your local laws. if this is a public school you should not have to pay for any education related items. there are some schools that do ask parents to help with things such as pens, tissues, toilet paper etc, but the text or supplemental text should be given to the students.

 

[RedwolfWV]

Damn. I knew I liked you Squeaks

 

[Iron Warrior]

I had no intentions of bringing up teachers salaries here. The "Good" teachers get paid far less than they should... trouble is only about 25% of all the teachers I've ever known (and I used to work very closely with the school districts here in WV) fall under that category. That aside, your statement does happen to be true. Taxes do pay teachers salaries.

I maybe came off wrong bro but I once had 3 trophy wives who demanded that I get fired because their lazy kids failed my classes because they did nothing and begged me to pass them the second to last week. They had to hold a panel meeting with me, the parents, and administrators just because I didn't have tenure.

 

[AE14]

unfortunately it seems (from my years of experience) that parents will get overly involved. This issue might not be that type of circumstance. However, remember to ALWAYS speak to the teacher first. It will be easier to work with them when you show them some respect without going over their head. If you feel that does not work, then by all means call a department supervisor or VP.

 

[Sunder]

I really do understand that you are concerned with the principle of the possibility that this is the beginning of a slippery slope, and that is something to watch out for.

But since this is on your mind so much, I still think a simple phone call to the teacher to inquire more about the reasoning behind the subscription request is better than either talking to the principal first or by writing a letter "expressing your concerns". It will just work out better for you in the end. (Arnold played/manipulated with these social rules, so it's still ok. )

I know if I do "anything" in life that other people question/disagree with, I'd react a lot more positively if they were to have an open mind and ask me what my reasons were for doing so - give me a chance to convince them. If they just wrote me a note telling me how much they disagree with what I'm doing, but they'll do it just this one time...well, how would you feel/react?

Would you rather your co-worker ask you why you drink protein shakes, write you a note telling you how wrong it is to drink protein shakes, or complain to your boss to demand you to stop drinking protein shakes? Obviously this is an excaggerated example, used only to hopefully demonstrate the teacher's own personal reactions to these different approaches.

Plus this person isn't some salesman you'll never see again. This person can be a key influence in your child's educational development - good or bad.

But if "rules are rules" is the mentality...if "my taxes pay for all the books with no exceptions", then don't be surprised when your kid gets an "F" on their paper that they handed in 5 minutes too late. "I said on my desk at 9am sharp. Rules are rules - just ask your dad."

 

[RedwolfWV]

I guess it comes down to the fact that I'm not one of the "sheeple". I stop and think about things. I talk them over with people close to me. I even pray about them sometimes. Nobody that I have talked to in person has agreed that what the school is doing is right. Maybe its because most of my friends are conservative. I don't know. What I do know is that I sent the money, and a note nicely written to the teacher. I doubt she will take the time to call me. I'll let you know when or if she does.

 

[RedwolfWV]

Well.... Today I got hit with ANOTHER fee. This one they are calling the "Student Fee" Its $10.00. Its just for the "privilege" of being a student at that school!! BULL$HIT! This one I WILL NOT pay. ARRRGH!!

 

[Iron Warrior]

Well.... Today I got hit with ANOTHER fee. This one they are calling the "Student Fee" Its $10.00. Its just for the "privilege" of being a student at that school!! BULL$HIT! This one I WILL NOT pay. ARRRGH!!

Is that a school wide fee or a fee for one class ? There is no "student fee" at my school LOL. If it's a school wide fee then you definitely take that up with the principal, if it's a class thing then talk to the teacher. Is this fee for the same class ?

 

[RedwolfWV]

Is that a school wide fee or a fee for one class ? There is no "student fee" at my school LOL. If it's a school wide fee then you definitely take that up with the principal, if it's a class thing then talk to the teacher. Is this fee for the same class ?

This is a school-wide fee, not just for one class. I'm gonna look into it more, call other highschools in the county and see if they charge it. I don't think they can legally do it. Its to "offset" the costs of photocopier paper and stuff like that.

 

[Iron Warrior]

This is a school-wide fee, not just for one class. I'm gonna look into it more, call other highschools in the county and see if they charge it. I don't think they can legally do it. Its to "offset" the costs of photocopier paper and stuff like that.

I think you might also want to ask how those funds are gonna be dispersed. The booster club won't give me a dime to run the football program unless I show them receipts. If you have 1,500 students (my school does) then that's 15K at $10 per student. If other schools aren't doing it then ask the principal about it. If every school in the district is doing it then this issue might be dismissed unless you have a huge petition to back you up. Good luck with that but I hope you're schools aren't in such a shape where they demand fees.

 

[Dr Packenwood]

In my highschool we had to pay for our yearbooks, pay some general fee, and the school had an assload of vending machines.

They also did sh1t like sold doughnuts in some of the main lobbies. So not only were they taking our parents money but they were making us fat.

I think members of various extracurricular clubs had to pay for some items, and some 'elective' classes such as ceramics and art classes had a small fee since the classes specifically weren't prerequisites for graduation.

In my AP physics class we had to purchase items for things like the balsa wood bridge building, and various 'above and beyond' contests that involved building or testing something. Usually wasn't a whole lot.

They also charged for parking if you drove to school. Even though there were nearly 2x more kids driving than there were parking spaces, everyone bought a parking pass then about killed each other fighting for a place to park.

 

[jmh80]

I teach Calc at my university and calculators do have their use, I think. Over the past 20 years we've experienced a "calc reform" movement that emphasizes teaching the students from a "graphical, numerical, and algebraic" perspective. I don't let my students use calculators on exams, but during class they are often asked to run some examples on their calculator to help them understand some theory.

Good move.

It is my opinion, as a practicing chemical engineer, that kids these days are poorly learning most subjects. I think they are getting a more broad academic perspective - but not nearly as deep. Some of this I blame on the reliance on computers and calculators.

I say bravo that you are making your kids learn how to integrate themselves. I think that gives them a much better chance at actually understanding the concepts and how to reason and think analytically. Rather than just plugging a formula into a Texas Instruments and getting an answer they don't understand for sh*t.


Alright - I better stop before I rant about rampant idiotic application of chemical design software (Hysis/Aspen).
Can't tell you how many times fellow students had simulations with distillation towers needing nuclear plant size reboiler duty or a benzene tower operating at 400 psig. (Vapor pressure was lost on many of my classmates, apparently.)
:rant:

 

[Polynomial]

Good move.

I say bravo that you are making your kids learn how to integrate themselves. I think that gives them a much better chance at actually understanding the concepts and how to reason and think analytically. Rather than just plugging a formula into a Texas Instruments and getting an answer they don't understand for sh*t.

:rant:

Thanks. Here's an interesting phenomenon: during the fall a lot of incoming freshmen who have taken AP Calc decide to take Calc 1 for whatever reason. In my class I have a mix of about 60% people who've taken Calc and 40% who haven't.

In the first few days of class one of my goals is to wipe their slate clean, so to speak, because the students that had AP Calc keep telling others that in Calculus "you first learn the hard way and then they give you the shortcuts."

They can tell you that the derivative of x^2 is 2x, but give them a table of values of a function and ask them to approximate the derivative from that and they all look at you funny...

My understanding is that most high school teachers that teach AP Calc think like teachers and not mathematicians. I'm a mathematician, so I'm going to teach the students how a mathematician thinks about Calculus and problem solving in general. After all, studies show that most people forget majority of what they learned in Calc after a semester, but they retain the problem solving skills much better.