How Do Herbivores Get So Much Muscle Mass? - AnabolicMinds.com

How Do Herbivores Get So Much Muscle Mass?

Page 1 of 2 12 Last
  1. Elite Member
    BigVrunga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,063
    Rep Power
    2682

    Reputation

    How Do Herbivores Get So Much Muscle Mass?


    ..Eating GRASS?? Look at the elephant, the rhino,hippos, holstein cows...1000's of lbs of muscle per animal, and all they do is eat grass and shrubs? Looking at the nutritional content of some grasses, they're packed with aminos:

    Nutritional Content of Sprouts, Grass and Greens

    But where's the protien? I have to consume close to 1.5-2g of quality protien per lb of LBM to start gaining real muscle. How to the big herbivores do it? Just massive amounts of calories and truckloads of testosterone?

    This question has always perplexed me.

    BV

  2. Board Supporter
    Rage (SoCal)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,928
    Rep Power
    1076

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    ..Eating GRASS?? Look at the elephant, the rhino,hippos, holstein cows...1000's of lbs of muscle per animal, and all they do is eat grass and shrubs? Looking at the nutritional content of some grasses, they're packed with aminos:

    Nutritional Content of Sprouts, Grass and Greens

    But where's the protien? I have to consume close to 1.5-2g of quality protien per lb of LBM to start gaining real muscle. How to the big herbivores do it? Just massive amounts of calories and truckloads of testosterone?

    This question has always perplexed me.

    BV
    I think you've hit it on the head. All these animals do all day long is eat and eat and eat. Much of their day doesn't contain any real activity. Also, I think its adaptive measures that these animals have evolved into which would allow them they proper chemical makeup to build such mass on this diet:

    Quote Originally Posted by Excerpt

    Easy! It comes from plants. The best examples are the biggest and strongest animals, elephants, horses, giraffes, rhinoceroses -- every one of them vegans! (They also happen to be the longest-living animals, another lesson buried here.) Vegetables and grains are complete proteins which means that they contain all the amino acids necessary to build muscle from scratch or to add on bigger, stronger muscles.

    For example, the limiting amino acid in plant foods is methionine, one of the so-called essential amino acids. If you were to eat only rice for, say, a large male's 3000 calorie day's allotment, you would get 1.1 grams, way above the minimum daily requirement of .11 grams (about TEN times as much)! In fact, this points out one of the problems with consuming the excess protein you get from eating animal protein, that of getting TOO much protein. This leads to kidney disease and osteoporosis as the human body cannot store protein and is damaged when it has to break down excess protein.
    I'm trying to find more information but their isn't too much.
  3. Registered User
    OCCFan023's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  210 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Age
    25
    Posts
    3,789
    Rep Power
    2000

    Reputation

    probably the same reason why people who eat mcdonalds all day get fat~ our bodies were designed and have evolved to our needs which doesnt contain foods such as McDonalds and everything. These animals have evolved in there habitat to acheive a thick protective skin and muscle to maintain their size and the source of food was from grass for so long that there bodies evolved.

    this sounded alot better in my head but was surprisingly difficult to try and write down
    •   
       

  4. Board Supporter
    diminuendo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Age
    36
    Posts
    332
    Rep Power
    290

    Reputation

    If vegans are so damn healthy, why are health stores always full of gray, chalky people who look so frail that a strong breeze might damage their internal organs. You have inscisors dumb ass...use them.
  5. Registered User
    mp5man1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    195
    Rep Power
    204

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    ..Eating GRASS?? Look at the elephant, the rhino,hippos, holstein cows...1000's of lbs of muscle per animal, and all they do is eat grass and shrubs? Looking at the nutritional content of some grasses, they're packed with aminos:


    This question has always perplexed me.

    BV
    Don't give it a second thought. When no ones looking they eat hamburgers and the occasional villager.
  6. New Member
    DazzlinJack's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    328
    Rep Power
    267

    Reputation

    Maybe grass is a type of stem cell so that when the quadripeds eat it, their intestinal bacteria can convert that stuff into some serious muscle building compounds. The sun and water feeds the grass, the grass feeds the cows, and the cows feed humans.
  7. Registered User
    Rivet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,700
    Rep Power
    966

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by diminuendo
    If vegans are so damn healthy, why are health stores always full of gray, chalky people who look so frail that a strong breeze might damage their internal organs. You have inscisors dumb ass...use them.
    Ive wondered the same thing. I met a sports health nutritionist and she was vegan. I found it hard to take advice from someone who seemed so sickly (I found her info lacking anyways). I have met vegans however who look just like your average semi in-shape guy.
  8. Banned
    jomi822's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Age
    33
    Posts
    2,419
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation

    elephants have a ton of bacteria in their gut that allows them to break down the sugar macromolecules in plants. Our muscles contain glycogen, which is chain linked glucose molecules. Plant get their structure from cellulose, another sugar macromolecule that cannot be broken down by humans in any appreciable amount.

    The bacteria in elephants breaks the **** out of the links in the cellulose and turns it into pure sugar. in other words when we eat plants, we eat plants.

    when an elephant eats a plan hes eating a super carb meal.
  9. B4n3 0n3
    Guest
    B4n3 0n3's Avatar

    Since we are tlkaing about animals. Why are the female animals of some mamals just as big and muscular as the males? Why don't they need balls that supply test?
  10. Registered User
    jonny21's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Age
    46
    Posts
    2,254
    Rep Power
    3915

    Reputation

    Did you ever notice an obese person's calf muscles? Why are they huge? Carry and lift that amount of weight all day and you are bound to build muscle just for survival. I think something like this has a small if not large role.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
  11. Elite Member
    BigVrunga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,063
    Rep Power
    2682

    Reputation

    Since we are tlkaing about animals. Why are the female animals of some mamals just as big and muscular as the males? Why don't they need balls that supply test?
    I think most male mammals tend to be bigger...most anyway. I saw a pair of White Rhinos last weekend. The female, while still massive, looked dainty compared to the bull. He was just freaky huge, and you could tell he slabs more muscle than his ladyfriend.

    BV
  12. Elite Member
    BigVrunga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,063
    Rep Power
    2682

    Reputation

    when an elephant eats a plan hes eating a super carb meal.
    A Super Carb meal packed with aminos, it seems!
  13. Elite Member
    bioman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  180 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    42
    Posts
    7,697
    Rep Power
    513132

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by jomi822
    elephants have a ton of bacteria in their gut that allows them to break down the sugar macromolecules in plants. Our muscles contain glycogen, which is chain linked glucose molecules. Plant get their structure from cellulose, another sugar macromolecule that cannot be broken down by humans in any appreciable amount.

    The bacteria in elephants breaks the **** out of the links in the cellulose and turns it into pure sugar. in other words when we eat plants, we eat plants.

    when an elephant eats a plan hes eating a super carb meal.

    True but you're all forgetting one important thing..many of these animals have several stomachs giving them a large storage capacity. As they eat all day..and night as someone pointed out, they have constant steady stream of nutrients entering the bloodstream. They have a perfect conveyor belt of nutrients while we struggle to stuff down enough protein. Herbivore's big drawback is that they have many times more intestinal mass than ourselves or predators.

    Very few animals only eat grass. Elephants realistically eat grasses, shrubs, fruits, nuts, sedges, tree bark et cetera. Every pant type has a varying amount of protein, carbs and even fat. Herbivores are sensitive to these ratioes and will seek out carbs when they are depleted, protein when they need it et cetera. Look up the term "Crude Protein Content" and you'll see there has been considerable research done on about every single edible plant out there. It's been researched to maximize animal husbandry.

    Hormonally, I have no idea what is going on there.
  14. Registered User
    Ubiquitous's Avatar
    Stats
    6'3"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Age
    36
    Posts
    3,462
    Rep Power
    1849

    Reputation

    well said. ^^^^

    I'd eat an elephant if they didn't have such sad eyes.
  15. Elite Member
    BigVrunga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,063
    Rep Power
    2682

    Reputation

    Male elephants do generate massive amounts of test, Im searching around but I cant find an exact number. But every so often they go through this hormonal rage calles 'musth' where their anabolic hormones get so high that they freak out and attack anything, includng trees.

    Its interesting, Elephant society has evolved to cope with this, and when a young male first goes into musth he's banished by the herd to the outskirts of their territory. I saw a story on TV about a group of young male elephants that had been orphaned by culling, poaching etc. When they reached adulthood, they all went nuts and started killing everything, humans, rhinos, etc. because they hadnt been raised by their herd - it was like Lord of the Flies but the kids weighed 10,000 lbs. They solved the problem by bringing in a group of old male elephants, that immediately kicked everyone's ass and set them straight - showing the young bulls how to deal with thier 'musth' phase.

    That's going off on a tangent from the original topic, but generally the big herbivores do have a lot of test, i would think.
    Probably another reason why the males of most species can be unpredictable, even if generally domesticated and tame.

    BV
  16. Elite Member
    RenegadeRows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    8,669
    Rep Power
    191395

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Male elephants do generate massive amounts of test, Im searching around but I cant find an exact number. But every so often they go through this hormonal rage calles 'musth' where their anabolic hormones get so high that they freak out and attack anything, includng trees.

    Its interesting, Elephant society has evolved to cope with this, and when a young male first goes into musth he's banished by the herd to the outskirts of their territory. I saw a story on TV about a group of young male elephants that had been orphaned by culling, poaching etc. When they reached adulthood, they all went nuts and started killing everything, humans, rhinos, etc. because they hadnt been raised by their herd - it was like Lord of the Flies but the kids weighed 10,000 lbs. They solved the problem by bringing in a group of old male elephants, that immediately kicked everyone's ass and set them straight - showing the young bulls how to deal with thier 'musth' phase.

    That's going off on a tangent from the original topic, but generally the big herbivores do have a lot of test, i would think.
    Probably another reason why the males of most species can be unpredictable, even if generally domesticated and tame.

    BV
    This is a very interesting thread. Thats why I like this forum.

    I saw something like that too. A TV show about a group of orphaned elephants on TLC one time. There was a group of people in Africa who essentially ran an "Elephant Orphanage", and took care of these animals. They all looked after eachother. After these elephants were all adjusted to eachother, they turned them loose in the wild and they stuck together as a herd. Very interesting.

    Elephants are one of my favorite animals...but I've seen shows on TV where the aging leader of the herd, when hes too old to defend himself, was rammed with tusks and killed by one of the younger ones looking to dominant the herd. Youthanasia? I guess they can't just 'retire', it must be something very primal about their positions in the herd that only elephants can understand. I guess they need a strong leader too.
  17. Elite Member
    BigVrunga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,063
    Rep Power
    2682

    Reputation

    Elephants are one of my favorite animals...but I've seen shows on TV where the aging leader of the herd, when hes too old to defend himself, was rammed with tusks and killed by one of the younger ones looking to dominant the herd. Youthanasia? I guess they can't just 'retire', it must be something very primal about their positions in the herd that only elephants can understand. I guess they need a strong leader too.
    I saw the same thing on a show on Animal Planet called 'Relentless Enemies' , about Lions and Water Buffalo. In this one section of Africa, the Water Buffalo actually realize they can stand up to the lion prides, and when they lions try to hunt the calves, etc, they're actually fought off by the bulls to protect the young ones.

    In one part of the show, the lions were going after the old bull who was the leader of the herd, he fought valiantly but was being overtaken - other Buffalo were trying to protect him. And then, his main *****, a younger bull, came out of nowhere and beat him to the ground so the lions could kill and eat him.

    I think animal social structures are fascinating. Sometimes they have strong parallels to how we behave - other times they are very different and alien.

    BV
  18. Elite Member
    bioman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  180 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    42
    Posts
    7,697
    Rep Power
    513132

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Animals are honest. Humans will covertly try to remove their enemies..gossip, law suits, intimidation, making others fight for them..ie war. Animals just duke it out. There's something noble about that.
  19. Elite Member
    BigVrunga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,063
    Rep Power
    2682

    Reputation

    Animals are honest. Humans will covertly try to remove their enemies..gossip, law suits, intimidation, making others fight for them..ie war. Animals just duke it out. There's something noble about that.
    I agree, although our closest relative, the Chimpanzee, can get pretty sneaky. The Bonobo Chimp, on the other hand, is a good example of what human culture should have evolved from...they're like a bunch of free love monkeys who would rather get laid and eat then fight.

    Bonobo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  20. Elite Member
    RenegadeRows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    8,669
    Rep Power
    191395

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    I'm going to the zoo on sunday! for real!

    I saw a show on Snakes vs. Prairie Dogs one time. The king cobras method of attack was surprise, and, the prarie dogs seeing the snake come before he could attack, his technique was ruined. They sounded off with a call unique to "SNAKE!", and then the prarie dogs were like shadow boxers, dodging and taunting the snake until he tired and slithered away. Mongooses can do the same thing.

    [nomedia="http://youtube.com/watch?v=tqiH9VioiGI"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]
  21. Registered User
    CHAPS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Age
    28
    Posts
    4,380
    Rep Power
    2867

    Reputation

    How about this, why do sumo wrestlers have more muscle mass then even the biggest bodybuilders? Because all they do is eat all the time, they make up huge stews of corn, beef, rice etc and just eat eat eat all day long.
  22. Elite Member
    bioman's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  180 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Age
    42
    Posts
    7,697
    Rep Power
    513132

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Bonobos are bad ass. I want to live in an orgy-based society. I probably wouldn't even work out anymore,lol.

    I used to live next to a prairie dog colony, before bubonic plague wiped it out. They do indeed have distinct calls for different threats. If my dog chased them alone, they'd bark different than when I walked into their colony. They are seriously smart and cool. Make good pets from what I hear.
  23. Banned
    gotripped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Age
    34
    Posts
    2,074
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation

    I've always been interested in the Effects of Exogenous testosterone/AAS application to pitbulls/rottweilers/dobermans/english bulldogs. Has this been done or is it ineffective?
  24. Elite Member
    BigVrunga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,063
    Rep Power
    2682

    Reputation

    I've always been interested in the Effects of Exogenous testosterone/anabolic steroids application to pitbulls/rottweilers/dobermans/english bulldogs. Has this been done or is it ineffective?
    I bet it would be effective - testosterone is the base male hormone for all mammals, IIRC.

    BV
  25. Elite Member
    BigVrunga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,063
    Rep Power
    2682

    Reputation

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm going to the zoo on sunday! for real!

    I saw a show on Snakes vs. Prairie Dogs one time. The king cobras method of attack was surprise, and, the prarie dogs seeing the snake come before he could attack, his technique was ruined. They sounded off with a call unique to "SNAKE!", and then the prarie dogs were like shadow boxers, dodging and taunting the snake until he tired and slithered away. Mongooses can do the same thing.
    The Zoo rocks!! I went to a zoo jus the other day - you can really tell which animals seem happy to be where they are and which ones know they're in a cage. Very cool to see all those different species though. The Rhinos and Giraffes were my favorite

    BV
  26. Elite Member
    RenegadeRows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    8,669
    Rep Power
    191395

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    The Zoo rocks!! I went to a zoo jus the other day - you can really tell which animals seem happy to be where they are and which ones know they're in a cage. Very cool to see all those different species though. The Rhinos and Giraffes were my favorite

    BV
    I had the pleasure of watching the zebras eat last year, very cool, calm animals.

    But don't feed the monkeys! We were throwing them popcorn (I know, I know, don't feed the monkeys), and they got pretty violent when we stopped feeding them! They were yelling and grabbing for us like a bunch of rabbid inmates, lol.

    I haven't seen bears in a while, I'd like to see bears.
  27. B4n3 0n3
    Guest
    B4n3 0n3's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by gotripped
    I've always been interested in the Effects of Exogenous testosterone/anabolic steroids application to pitbulls/rottweilers/dobermans/english bulldogs. Has this been done or is it ineffective?
    From what I have read about hog dogging yes I believe they do this type of thing regularly with pit bulls.
  28. Banned
    gotripped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Age
    34
    Posts
    2,074
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by B4n3 0n3
    From what I have read about hog dogging yes I believe they do this type of thing regularly with pit bulls.

    I wonder if OTC Orals would be just as effective.
  29. Advanced Member
    danTman2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Age
    26
    Posts
    994
    Rep Power
    611

    Reputation

    T-rex was an herbivore and i have heard several times that this was true. But still today the biggest badest animals are carnivores or omnivores.

    they should start mutating the myostain gene in all the big animals and see how big they can really get.

    anyway lets just not let this turn into a vegitarian v.s. meateater debate cause i hate those with a passion.
  30. Banned
    gotripped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Age
    34
    Posts
    2,074
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by danTman2
    T-rex was an herbivore and i have heard several times that this was true. But still today the biggest badest animals are carnivores or omnivores.

    they should start mutating the myostain gene in all the big animals and see how big they can really get.

    anyway lets just not let this turn into a vegitarian v.s. meateater debate cause i hate those with a passion.

    I prefer the debate of Myostation blockers in Humans vs regular humans.

    That's a better one.

    Too bad they don't exist.
  31. Registered User
    Ubiquitous's Avatar
    Stats
    6'3"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Age
    36
    Posts
    3,462
    Rep Power
    1849

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by danTman2
    T-rex was an herbivore and i have heard several times that this was true.
    I've heard the arguements that it was moreso a SCAVENGER (like a vulture) instead of herbivore... (being a strict herbivore would be laughable in regards to it's teeth)... The arguements either way are not so persuasive... noone can adamantly prove either side as it is sheer speculation. Most of the "proof" is it's puny forelimbs, and shortened tibia.... The only way to prove either arguement would be to get ahold of Doc Brown and his Delorean and find out firsthand.

    Manipulating animals with exogenous hormones or myostatin blockers is fundamentally irresponsible.
  32. Registered User
    kwyckemynd00's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"   lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Age
    31
    Posts
    5,324
    Rep Power
    2847

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by B4n3 0n3
    Since we are tlkaing about animals. Why are the female animals of some mamals just as big and muscular as the males? Why don't they need balls that supply test?
    The male animals dont always produce more testosterone. They're only male because their the givers not the recievers. Just like an electric plug
  33. B4n3 0n3
    Guest
    B4n3 0n3's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    The male animals dont always produce more testosterone. They're only male because their the givers not the recievers. Just like an electric plug
    All this time I have had it in my head that you need nuts to have testosterone, I guess I was wrong.
  34. B4n3 0n3
    Guest
    B4n3 0n3's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by gotripped
    I wonder if OTC Orals would be just as effective.
    I don't see why they would not work but I have no idea how to go about the dosages.
  35. Banned
    gotripped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Age
    34
    Posts
    2,074
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by B4n3 0n3
    I don't see why they would not work but I have no idea how to go about the dosages.

    Well if a 180 pound male or 200 pound male consumes 20mg daily. Then a 100lb dog might be able to take in 10mg. Or you could split the capsules to 5mg. I'm not sure how their liver would process it though. The damage might be far worse because of their smaller frame.
  36. Advanced Member
    danTman2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Age
    26
    Posts
    994
    Rep Power
    611

    Reputation

    splitting the capsule would be hard considering that most of the stuff inside is just filler, you wouldnt know where the active ingredient would be. Yeah this type of thing would be a little irresponsible though.

    nd yeah i kinda thought that the t-rex thing was sketchy.......its boasted on alot of anti-meat websites when they talk about equality of proteins and stuff like that. I heard it first from a vegitarian, go figure. ( no i am not a veggicist so i have nothing against them)
  37. Registered User
    kwyckemynd00's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"   lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Age
    31
    Posts
    5,324
    Rep Power
    2847

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by B4n3 0n3
    All this time I have had it in my head that you need nuts to have testosterone, I guess I was wrong.
    Hyenas are a great example.

    The alpha female hyena often has higher testosterone than most males! Now, the alpha male tends to have higher test than the alpha female, this is still in start contrast to humans.

    There is one other consideration, too. The affinity to test. On average females have slightly lower test than males but there is a theory (yet to be proven) that they have a higher affinity making them more stout.

    But, overall, high testosterone isn't a solely male trait.
  38. Diamond Member
    Jayhawkk's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  230 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Age
    39
    Posts
    12,790
    Rep Power
    11680

    Reputation

    But, overall, high testosterone isn't a solely male trait
    My ex-wife is a perfect example.
  39. Registered User
    kwyckemynd00's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"   lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Age
    31
    Posts
    5,324
    Rep Power
    2847

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    My ex-wife is a perfect example.
    I'm not sure how you want me to interpret that...

  40. Diamond Member
    Jayhawkk's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  230 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Age
    39
    Posts
    12,790
    Rep Power
    11680

    Reputation

    She was the alpha male...I was the *****. But she was so damned hot. It made me deal with a psycho a lot longer than I should had.
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. how do I get banned easily?
    By griz145389 in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-23-2005, 10:09 PM
  2. How do I get my natural sleep pattern back??
    By BigVrunga in forum Supplements
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 01-07-2005, 11:06 AM
  3. How do they get ripped glutes???
    By Nuteboy in forum General Chat
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-26-2004, 09:57 PM
  4. Why do you get so damn hungry on CKD?
    By windwords7 in forum Weight Loss
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 06-18-2003, 09:32 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in